Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
On May 3, 2005, at 7:32 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But even if you bought one already built, what rig can compete with the K2? The TenTec Orion and the Yaesu FT-1000MP (any variety) hold their own quite well. So does the Icom IC-7800, but it is in a whole 'nuther price category Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASELMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quote: "We invented personal computing." -- Bill Gates @ TechNet / MSDN 2003 Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASELMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
In a message dated 5/2/05 1:14:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > It is almost always more > expensive to build than to buy something of the same specification. Yes and no. Building from scratch with new parts bought in small quantities from "regular" sources rarely saves any money. Kits are a different story because the kit company can get volume discounts. If you scratchbuild with parts from irregular sources, it becomes a different game entirely. Two of my Southgate projects use variable capacitors from WW2 freqmeters. Those caps must have cost a fortune in their day - but they cost me only a dollar or two in surplus. > Heathkits, if I recall correctly, were never particularly cheap. > Here in the USA, from the mid 1950s to about the early 1970s, they were the least expensive way for a ham to get on the air with new gear. In most cases you couldn't buy the parts new for what the kit cost. When the HW-101 appeared, about 1968, it cost about $300 with AC power supply. What other new rig could compare with the '101s features in its time? > Ham radio, for me, is not just about operating. If I want to make contact > with people around the world, I can use the Internet. > Yep - which is one reason we don't see the rapid growth in amateur radio that we saw years and decades ago, when ham radio was about the only way the average person could do long-distance electronic communications. > I build for the enjoyment of it, and because to make radio contacts using > something I have built myself feels like more of an achievement than making > contacts using a shop-bought radio. The fact that I have got bored with > every commercial radio I have ever owned, while my K2 is still here, is the > proof of it. There should be a warning sticker on every Elecraft box that it will ruin you for appliances But even if you bought one already built - what rig can compete with the K2? 73 de Jim, N2EY > > ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
There's a generalization I strongly disagree with. It is almost always more expensive to build than to buy something of the same specification. Heathkits, if I recall correctly, were never particularly cheap. Ham radio, for me, is not just about operating. If I want to make contact with people around the world, I can use the Internet. I build for the enjoyment of it, and because to make radio contacts using something I have built myself feels like more of an achievement than making contacts using a shop-bought radio. The fact that I have got bored with every commercial radio I have ever owned, while my K2 is still here, is the proof of it. 73, Julian, G4ILO (K2 #392) G4ILO's Shack: http://www.tech-pro.net/g4ilo Nigel KC8NHF/G8IFF <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Most people, I would imagine, build primarily as a means of saving money. There's no point in building something if I can buy something similar for less money. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
In a message dated 5/1/05 8:47:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Most people, I would imagine, build primarily as a means of saving money. > There's no point in building something if I can buy something similar > for less money. > Maybe not for you. But having built a lot of rigs from scratch and from kits, I'm simply ruined for manufactured ham gear. But it's a moot point anyway. There's nothing on the market that directly competes with the Elecraft rigs. Sure, there are other QRP rigs, some of them very good - but they're all different enough from the KX1, K1 or K2 that direct comparison is somewhat difficult. Are there any "mainstream" ham rigs with the K2's capabilities, where the mfr uses no "house parts", gives complete service and alignment info, and will sell you any part in any quantity, no questions asked? 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
On May 1, 2005, at 11:43 AM, Nigel KC8NHF/G8IFF wrote: Sokay Paul, you're entitled to voice an opinion. It must also be remembered that most amateurs are not on this reflector. Most of those here will be keen constructors. Yes, but you weren't talking about "most amateurs". You were talking about most who build. To match you, I was also talking about most who build. Here is your quote: Most people, I would imagine, build primarily as a means of saving money. No fair changing the people we are talking about ;) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
Sokay Paul, you're entitled to voice an opinion. It must also be remembered that most amateurs are not on this reflector. Most of those here will be keen constructors. I tend to buy the rig, pull it apart to see how it works (or doesn't work, after I've finished with it) and build the accessories/install the mods. I've currently got a T1 on order to go inside the FT-817. Paul Bruneau wrote: I imagine this conversation comes up on the list about 4 times a year, so why reply? It's hard for me to read someone's theory that goes so completely against my own experience and not respond. It's definitely a weakness. For that I apologize! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Nigel A. Gunn. 59 Beadlemead, Milton Keynes, MK6 4HF, England. Tel +44 (0)1908 604004 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] wwwhttp://www.ngunn.net or http://www.ngunn.demon.co.uk Amateur radio stations G8IFF, KC8NHF Member of AMSAT-UK #182, ARRL, GQRP Club, QRPARCI, SOC #548 RAYNET Flying Pig #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
On May 1, 2005, at 8:46 AM, Nigel KC8NHF/G8IFF wrote: Most people, I would imagine, build primarily as a means of saving money. There's no point in building something if I can buy something similar for less money. Greetings Nigel- I can't argue with you because I don't have any stats (just like you), but for me, the only reason I chose the K2 was because I could build it myself. I could have bought used kenwoods all day on ebay for 1/3 the money and been on the air in minutes. I thought about spending that extra $300-$400 long and hard. I imagine this conversation comes up on the list about 4 times a year, so why reply? It's hard for me to read someone's theory that goes so completely against my own experience and not respond. It's definitely a weakness. For that I apologize! KB8NMZ K2 #4818 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
Nigel: Actually, there are at least two points in building something even if one could buy something similar for less money. 1) If you build it yourself, you know the rig in a sense that never happens with purchased gear. 2) Servicability; if you build it, you can probably fix it when it breaks, and they all break eventually. Speaking strictly for myself, in the case of the K2, I've seen numerous postings on eBay for completed working K2s at good prices. I've never even been tempted to bid. Although it is taking me a bit longer than I expected it would to get set up to build a K2, I intend to build one as soon as I can, and I would not dream of buying a finished K2. (At present, my main rig is a Ten Tec Argosy, and the K2 is a more than worthy candidate to replace it.) Admittedly, I am not most people. Furthermore, I'd guess that the typical members of the reflector are also not "most people" in this respect. After all, we signed on in order to talk about building radios. I'd be surprised if most people on the reflector would prefer to buy than build. 73, Steve AA4AK At 12:46 PM 5/1/2005 +, you wrote: Most people, I would imagine, build primarily as a means of saving money. There's no point in building something if I can buy something similar for less money. Craig Rairdin wrote: As for the radio being in a kit form, that is actually a HUGE selling point, regardless of the time and effort required to build it since all hams that I have met so far would really love to be able to build their radios instead of buying a ready made appliance, -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Nigel A. Gunn. 59 Beadlemead, Milton Keynes, MK6 4HF, England. Tel +44 (0)1908 604004 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] wwwhttp://www.ngunn.net or http://www.ngunn.demon.co.uk Amateur radio stations G8IFF, KC8NHF Member of AMSAT-UK #182, ARRL, GQRP Club, QRPARCI, SOC #548 RAYNET Flying Pig #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
Most people, I would imagine, build primarily as a means of saving money. There's no point in building something if I can buy something similar for less money. Craig Rairdin wrote: As for the radio being in a kit form, that is actually a HUGE selling point, regardless of the time and effort required to build it since all hams that I have met so far would really love to be able to build their radios instead of buying a ready made appliance, -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Nigel A. Gunn. 59 Beadlemead, Milton Keynes, MK6 4HF, England. Tel +44 (0)1908 604004 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] wwwhttp://www.ngunn.net or http://www.ngunn.demon.co.uk Amateur radio stations G8IFF, KC8NHF Member of AMSAT-UK #182, ARRL, GQRP Club, QRPARCI, SOC #548 RAYNET Flying Pig #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
On April 30, 2005 7:59 am, Craig Rairdin wrote: > If I've learned anything in business it's that the best products don't > always win. The best *marketed* products win. This means things like > "brand", "price", "good looks", "consumer buzz" and "advertising budget" > are perhaps more important than "receiver sensitivity", "filter bandwidth" > and other measures of quality. > Craig et al, This seems to be the trend with consumers, businesses, and shareholders today; The best looking package with a huge feature list at a very low price. There are those like myself who will buy quality, performance, and customer service. However, I think though that I am in the minority. When I bought my last cell phone, I picked the make and model with the best performing RF section. If you want to see dumb looks, ask a cell phone representative about RF specs. It all depends on how one defines win. Most businesses define win to mean to be the market leader, or most profitable, or have the highest earning per share, however I firmly believe that this idea is wrong. I would much rather deal with a company that makes a high quality product, and backs it up with excellent customer service. If this same company can make a decent profit, and can create some jobs then I consider them to have won. Double digit growth and earnings per share only matter to accountants and shareholders. And yes I would buy Elecraft shares if I could make a few percent in dividends, even if the stock price didn't go up. I am in the minority here too. As long as the market for Elecraft's products is large enough to sustain the company, then Elecraft is doing just fine. They don't need to dominate the ham radio business. Once the marketers and accountants take over, the products became the same as everybody else makes, and cost reduction becomes the main design criteria. Companies become focused on growth and earnings per share at the expense of quality, customer service and jobs. Thank you very much Eric and Wayne. While you may never make the Forbes top 500 list, I would consider Elecraft to be one of a handful of truly great companies. Elecraft is a winner in my books! Darrell -- Darrell Bellerive Amateur Radio Stations: VA7TO, VE7CLA Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
My perspective is probably in a minority here, but here goes. I didn't buy a K2 because I like building kits. I do a lot of building and experimenting, and I want to use my time and skills to create new things, not assemble kits. I bought my used K2 on ebay because I can work on it. I have done some of the mods, and plan to develop my own mods as needed to keep the rig viable for years to come as well . When my TS850S started a slow death, almost every circuit that died was not field repairable. My previous rig was a Drake TR7 which was field repairable, but virtually all the Japanese radios are not designed so that you could even operate the radio while having access to the boards. I assume they have fixtures to allow factory repair (or just replace the boards). I was determined to buy a rig this time that could be easily fixed with minimum downtime or cost. Feature-wise the TS850S has more to offer, but the Elecraft is easily the equal in terms of performance, and better in receive. If Elecraft can make a K3 kit with more features, but still the same level of serviceability and performance, then I'm all for it... but if it loses those virtues, then it might as well be a Kenwood. Larry N8LP Craig Rairdin wrote: As for the radio being in a kit form, that is actually a HUGE selling point, regardless of the time and effort required to build it since all hams that I have met so far would really love to be able to build their radios instead of buying a ready made appliance, provided that the result does not lack in any significant RF design respect vs the commercially available units. And I am not talking about a million gadgets that you rarely ever use in a rig, but basic ant time proven options as the above mentioned. This is almost a universal definition of a Ham: "he who likes to tinker" ...and by gaining widespread acceptance worldwide, profits can be improved even with a smaller profit margin per unit. I think you're taking your preconceived ideas and projecting them onto everyone else. YOU may enjoy building kits, but I don't think that's a majority opinion. YOU may be one who likes to tinker with everything you build or buy, but that's far from a majority opinion. If being a kit is a HUGE selling point then we wouldn't be having this discussion about what Elecraft could do to improve its market share. This has to be the best kit radio out there, so by your definition it should be in the market share lead. I frankly don't know if it is or isn't but am assuming from the topic of discussion that it's not. So it can't be the case that simply being a good kit is enough. If I might project MY opinions onto a majority of hams (most of whom aren't on this list, by the way) then I would say the universal definition of a ham is closer to "one who wants more radio than he or she can afford". Everything I've "tinkered" with is because I was too cheap/poor to buy something that was good out of the box or that wasn't used and in need of repair. If I've learned anything in business it's that the best products don't always win. The best *marketed* products win. This means things like "brand", "price", "good looks", "consumer buzz" and "advertising budget" are perhaps more important than "receiver sensitivity", "filter bandwidth" and other measures of quality. Craig NZ0R K1 #1966 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] RE: Can Elecraft take over the global HF ham radiobusiness ?
> As for the radio being in a kit form, that is actually a HUGE selling > point, regardless of the time and effort required to build it since > all hams that I have met so far would really love to be able to build > their radios instead of buying a ready made appliance, provided that > the result does not lack in any significant RF design respect vs the > commercially available units. And I am not talking about a million > gadgets that you rarely ever use in a rig, but basic ant time proven > options as the above mentioned. > This is almost a universal definition of a Ham: "he who likes to > tinker" > ...and by gaining widespread acceptance worldwide, profits can be > improved even with a smaller profit margin per unit. I think you're taking your preconceived ideas and projecting them onto everyone else. YOU may enjoy building kits, but I don't think that's a majority opinion. YOU may be one who likes to tinker with everything you build or buy, but that's far from a majority opinion. If being a kit is a HUGE selling point then we wouldn't be having this discussion about what Elecraft could do to improve its market share. This has to be the best kit radio out there, so by your definition it should be in the market share lead. I frankly don't know if it is or isn't but am assuming from the topic of discussion that it's not. So it can't be the case that simply being a good kit is enough. If I might project MY opinions onto a majority of hams (most of whom aren't on this list, by the way) then I would say the universal definition of a ham is closer to "one who wants more radio than he or she can afford". Everything I've "tinkered" with is because I was too cheap/poor to buy something that was good out of the box or that wasn't used and in need of repair. If I've learned anything in business it's that the best products don't always win. The best *marketed* products win. This means things like "brand", "price", "good looks", "consumer buzz" and "advertising budget" are perhaps more important than "receiver sensitivity", "filter bandwidth" and other measures of quality. Craig NZ0R K1 #1966 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
