Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Jack Smith]

  Spectrum Laboratory  by DL4YHF http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html 
may be able to do this already.

If the K3's 15 KHz IF output were available from the main and sub 
receivers, Spectrum Laboratory could use those to generate the automatic 
phase display using the direction finding feature. Don't know how it 
would work with demodulated audio and 0 Hz IF.

It may also be possible to use the DSP black box functionality in 
Spectrum Laboratory to introduce variable delay into the audio chain.

Jack K8ZOA


On 9/16/2010 4:37 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
> Several weeks ago, I believe that Wayne posted a message asking what
> kind of different uses people were coming up with for their K3.  One
> thing I've been playing with lately is feeding the signals from two
> horizontally polarized antennas at different heights on my tower into
> the Main and Sub receivers of my K3 in diversity mode.  Since the
> relative phase between the two signals is preserved in the translation
> to audio, I can feed the audio from the two receivers into the A and B
> channels of my computer sound card and compare the relative phase using
> a dual-trace sound card oscilloscope program like Zelscope.  By knowing
> the vertical distance between the two antennas I'm hoping to be able to
> calculate the arrival angle of the signal in real time.  I say "hoping
> to" because so far I don't have a distant stable, unmodulated carrier to
> work with ... the best DX carriers have come from 40m BC stations but
> the modulation screws up the triggering.   Once I get the methodology
> worked out a bit better I'll ask someone in Europe to throw a carrier on
> frequency for me.
>
> Playing around with this stuff got me thinking, though.  What if I fed
> the output from two VERTICAL antennas into the K3 receivers in diversity
> mode, fed the audio output of both receivers into the A and B channels
> of the computer sound card, and used an application that introduced an
> adjustable delay in one audio channel before summing the two channels
> and doing the D/A translation back to monaural audio?  Wouldn't that
> have the exact same effect as being able to adjust the phase of the
> incoming RF, and therefore the directivity of the 2 element vertical
> array?  I'm pretty sure that today's computers could certainly handle
> the computation.  There wouldn't be any constraints on the amount of
> delay so the array should be continuously steerable through an entire
> 360 degrees, and since the delay would be imposed digitally there
> wouldn't be any frequency dependency.   Ideally the two feedlines would
> be of equal construction and equal length, but even if they weren't it
> would be fairly easy to characterize their relative phase delay as a
> function of frequency.  I think mutual coupling even become a non-issue
> if the verticals are non-resonant.  Non-resonant antennas might be the
> way to go anyway since such unlimited control over phase means that
> spacing between them would be less of an issue, and therefore the same
> pair of verticals could be used on more than one band as long as the
> spacing was wide enough.
>
> Why wouldn't this work?  The PCM data format is pretty straightforward
> and I can't believe that the application would be that complicated to
> write.  I must be missing something but nothing jumps out at me.  If it
> worked, it could even be a feature in a next generation K3 (maybe even
> the current one)  all it would take is some means to adjust the
> delay since everything else (two phase locked receivers, DSP processing
> for both RF and audio) is already there.
>
> In the case of the K3, all of this would only apply to reception, of
> course, although it almost seems like a transceiver could be engineered
> that used the desired delay determined from the receiver to set a
> corresponding delay for two identical tone-modulated transmitter chains
> driven from the same oscillator.  I suspect a pair of phased
> transmitters would have pretty limited appeal, though ... certainly
> they'd be an expensive way to get just two or three db steerable gain.
>
> Fun stuff to think about, in any case.
>
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Alan Bloom]

> What if I fed 
> the output from two VERTICAL antennas into the K3 receivers in diversity 
> mode, fed the audio output of both receivers into the A and B channels 
> of the computer sound card, and used an application that introduced an 
> adjustable delay in one audio channel before summing the two channels 
> and doing the D/A translation back to monaural audio?  Wouldn't that 
> have the exact same effect as being able to adjust the phase of the 
> incoming RF, and therefore the directivity of the 2 element vertical 
> array?

Yes, I think that would work fine.  There are two issues that I can
think of:

While the main and sub receivers are phase-coherent, the actual phase
difference between them is random.  I believe that if you change
frequency it is not guaranteed that the phase difference will be the
same.  So every time you change frequency you may have to re-adjust the
phase delay to get the antenna to "point" in the right direction.

The other issue is that the antennas must be no more than 1/2 wavelength
apart to get a clean, single-lobe response in the directivity pattern.

Al N1AL


On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 01:37 -0700, David Gilbert wrote:
> Several weeks ago, I believe that Wayne posted a message asking what 
> kind of different uses people were coming up with for their K3.  One 
> thing I've been playing with lately is feeding the signals from two 
> horizontally polarized antennas at different heights on my tower into 
> the Main and Sub receivers of my K3 in diversity mode.  Since the 
> relative phase between the two signals is preserved in the translation 
> to audio, I can feed the audio from the two receivers into the A and B 
> channels of my computer sound card and compare the relative phase using 
> a dual-trace sound card oscilloscope program like Zelscope.  By knowing 
> the vertical distance between the two antennas I'm hoping to be able to 
> calculate the arrival angle of the signal in real time.  I say "hoping 
> to" because so far I don't have a distant stable, unmodulated carrier to 
> work with ... the best DX carriers have come from 40m BC stations but 
> the modulation screws up the triggering.   Once I get the methodology 
> worked out a bit better I'll ask someone in Europe to throw a carrier on 
> frequency for me.
> 
> Playing around with this stuff got me thinking, though.  What if I fed 
> the output from two VERTICAL antennas into the K3 receivers in diversity 
> mode, fed the audio output of both receivers into the A and B channels 
> of the computer sound card, and used an application that introduced an 
> adjustable delay in one audio channel before summing the two channels 
> and doing the D/A translation back to monaural audio?  Wouldn't that 
> have the exact same effect as being able to adjust the phase of the 
> incoming RF, and therefore the directivity of the 2 element vertical 
> array?  I'm pretty sure that today's computers could certainly handle 
> the computation.  There wouldn't be any constraints on the amount of 
> delay so the array should be continuously steerable through an entire 
> 360 degrees, and since the delay would be imposed digitally there 
> wouldn't be any frequency dependency.   Ideally the two feedlines would 
> be of equal construction and equal length, but even if they weren't it 
> would be fairly easy to characterize their relative phase delay as a 
> function of frequency.  I think mutual coupling even become a non-issue 
> if the verticals are non-resonant.  Non-resonant antennas might be the 
> way to go anyway since such unlimited control over phase means that 
> spacing between them would be less of an issue, and therefore the same 
> pair of verticals could be used on more than one band as long as the 
> spacing was wide enough.
> 
> Why wouldn't this work?  The PCM data format is pretty straightforward 
> and I can't believe that the application would be that complicated to 
> write.  I must be missing something but nothing jumps out at me.  If it 
> worked, it could even be a feature in a next generation K3 (maybe even 
> the current one)  all it would take is some means to adjust the 
> delay since everything else (two phase locked receivers, DSP processing 
> for both RF and audio) is already there.
> 
> In the case of the K3, all of this would only apply to reception, of 
> course, although it almost seems like a transceiver could be engineered 
> that used the desired delay determined from the receiver to set a 
> corresponding delay for two identical tone-modulated transmitter chains 
> driven from the same oscillator.  I suspect a pair of phased 
> transmitters would have pretty limited appeal, though ... certainly 
> they'd be an expensive way to get just two or three db steerable gain.
> 
> Fun stuff to think about, in any case.
> 
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> 
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Bill W4ZV]

David Gilbert wrote:
> 
> 
> Playing around with this stuff got me thinking, though.  What if I fed 
> the output from two VERTICAL antennas into the K3 receivers in diversity 
> mode, fed the audio output of both receivers into the A and B channels 
> of the computer sound card, and used an application that introduced an 
> adjustable delay in one audio channel before summing the two channels 
> and doing the D/A translation back to monaural audio?  Wouldn't that 
> have the exact same effect as being able to adjust the phase of the 
> incoming RF, and therefore the directivity of the 2 element vertical 
> array?  
> 

Good idea, already implemented by MFJ, DXE and others:

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-1025
http://www.dxengineering.com/Parts.asp?ID=1227&PLID=215&SecID=114&DeptID=12&PartNo=DXE-NCC-1

This reminds me of one SDR guru who proposed using 4 SDR transceivers to
emulate a 4-square.  A multi-K$ solution to a $350 problem (i.e. one 4SQ
controller box)...not to mention the need for 4 separate feedlines, 4
amplifiers, etc. 

73,  Bill

P.S.  I believe one problem with what you proposed above is that phase would
need to be readjusted every time you touched the VFO...i.e. phase is locked
(i.e. meaning the phase differential is fixed) but the actual phase offset
between the two RXs changes each time the synthesizer changes.  Lyle can
correct me if I'm wrong.
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Diversity-Reception-and-Antenna-Directivity-tp5537531p5539351.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Jim Brown]

There is another VERY important thing that is being missed by this 
discussion. A VERY large component of fading is due to multipath -- that is, 
the arrival of more two or more wavefronts that travel different paths, and 
thus have slightly different travel times. This produces a phase shift which 
varies with frequency, position, and the path. When the two wavefronts are 
precisely in phase and equal in amplitude, they add by 6dB; when they are 
precisely 180 degrees out of phase and equal in amplitude, they cancel. At 
any other value of phase difference, there is partial addition or partial 
cancellation. And, of course, the more nearly equal the two wavefronts, the 
deeper the cancellation. 

This is WELL recognized as multipath on VHF and UHF, but few hams realize 
that the same thing is happening on the lower bands. Think about it -- the 
phase shift is a direct function of frequency, so the very fast "picket 
fencing" at VHF/UHF of a mobile station or the flutter of a signal reflected 
by a moving aircraft becomes MUCH slower fading on the lower bands. A fading 
period on the order of a minute or two is not uncommon on 160M. 

When there is multipath on HF and MF circuits, the paths (most?) often differ 
by their vertical arrival angle. This suggests that one might expect a small 
time offset between horizontal antennas at different heights based on their 
vertical patterns and the vertical arrival angle of multiple wavefronts 
favored by the directivity of one antenna or the other. 

73, Jim Brown K9YC 


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[David Gilbert]

Thanks for the reply, Alan.

That's interesting.  I didn't realize that the two receivers in the K3 
had a random phase difference between them even when locked.  I noticed 
differences in phase delay when I changed frequencies during my tests 
with the two horizontal antennas on the tower, but I mostly attributed 
that to different arrival angles for the different stations being 
monitored, and different phase delay of the feed lines (expressed in 
wavelengths) at the new frequencies.

However, that random phase difference between the two receivers could be 
adjusted out by momentarily feeding the same antenna into both receivers 
at each new frequency.  That routing could be accomplished within the K3 
if there was a quick and easy way to control whether or not the sub 
receiver was switched to the AUX RF antenna when diversity mode is 
active.  If that routing option took the form of a command, the whole 
process could be done in software (either external or internal to the 
K3) each time the frequency was changed ... albeit of course with some 
settling delay while the phase difference was determined and adjusted out.

73,
Dave   AB7E




On 9/16/2010 8:42 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> Yes, I think that would work fine. There are two issues that I can 
> think of: While the main and sub receivers are phase-coherent, the 
> actual phase difference between them is random. I believe that if you 
> change frequency it is not guaranteed that the phase difference will 
> be the same. So every time you change frequency you may have to 
> re-adjust the phase delay to get the antenna to "point" in the right 
> direction.

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Alan Bloom]

Yes, that should work, just switch the sub receiver antenna over to the
main receiver to calibrate the phase.  I think you'd get the best
accuracy by looking for a null and then subtracting 180 degrees.

By the way, I think rather than an adjustable delay between the two
channels you need an adjustable phase.  (If the phases of the two local
oscillators in the K3 differ by X degrees, than all audio frequencies
also differ by X degrees.)  There are a number of ways to do that, but
probably the most straightforward is to re-convert each audio signal to
"RF" (a few kHz) using local oscillators of the same frequency but
different phases, and then convert back to baseband with a single LO.
That could be done either with hardware or in software.

Just a SMOP.  (Small matter of programming :=)

Alan N1AL


On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 10:08 -0700, David Gilbert wrote:
> Thanks for the reply, Alan.
> 
> That's interesting.  I didn't realize that the two receivers in the K3 
> had a random phase difference between them even when locked.  I noticed 
> differences in phase delay when I changed frequencies during my tests 
> with the two horizontal antennas on the tower, but I mostly attributed 
> that to different arrival angles for the different stations being 
> monitored, and different phase delay of the feed lines (expressed in 
> wavelengths) at the new frequencies.
> 
> However, that random phase difference between the two receivers could be 
> adjusted out by momentarily feeding the same antenna into both receivers 
> at each new frequency.  That routing could be accomplished within the K3 
> if there was a quick and easy way to control whether or not the sub 
> receiver was switched to the AUX RF antenna when diversity mode is 
> active.  If that routing option took the form of a command, the whole 
> process could be done in software (either external or internal to the 
> K3) each time the frequency was changed ... albeit of course with some 
> settling delay while the phase difference was determined and adjusted out.
> 
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/16/2010 8:42 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> > Yes, I think that would work fine. There are two issues that I can 
> > think of: While the main and sub receivers are phase-coherent, the 
> > actual phase difference between them is random. I believe that if you 
> > change frequency it is not guaranteed that the phase difference will 
> > be the same. So every time you change frequency you may have to 
> > re-adjust the phase delay to get the antenna to "point" in the right 
> > direction.
> 
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Kok Chen]

On Sep 16, 2010, at 9/169:59 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

>  A VERY large component of fading is due to multipath -- that is,
> the arrival of more two or more wavefronts that travel different  
> paths, and
> thus have slightly different travel times.

Selective fading does not require multipath.  The CCIR 520-2 profiles  
for Raleigh fading are all single path models.  Raleigh fading causes  
selective fading.

http://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-F.520-2-199203-W/en

Whenever you hear distorted AM signals on HF, chances are it is caused  
by selective fading.  You can see selective fading in a waterfall by  
watching the fading occur as moving holes that sweep across the  
spectrum (very visible when you tune in broadband signal such as a  
Coast Guard weather FAX station on HF).  You can also see it take away  
individual tones in an Olivia signal in a waterfall.  Selective fading  
was also one of the primary impetus to switch from on-off keying to  
FSK in the early days of RTTY.

The Watterson model for ionospheric propagation breaks up a path into  
a complex signal with in-phase and quadrature components:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org:80/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?reload=true&arnumber=1090438

Each component passes through a independent scattering function that  
have Gaussian random processes, both a Gaussian Doppler spreading term  
and also a Gaussian amplitude term.

The modulus (i.e. "amplitude", or square root of power of the I and Q  
components) of a bivariate Gaussian random process happens to have  
Rayleigh distribution.  See references here (the Rician distribution  
is more general in that the mean of the components need not be zero):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_distribution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_distribution

I.e., the amplitude of a signal whose I and Q components each have  
independent Gaussian statistics, has a Rayleigh distribution.

As a consequence, a Rayleigh signal can cause selective fading without  
the need for a second path.  Since the Rayleigh probability density  
function has finite probability of being infinitesimally small, the  
fade has a chance of being very deep.

If you run a signal through an HF Channel Simulator (such as AE4JY's  
PathSim or cocoaPath) set to rayleigh fading parameters, you will see  
selective fading.

Watterson's paper also considers both the cases of multi- paths and  
multi- magneto-ionic rays that are scattered by the ionosphere.

Multipath signals have a time delay, multiray signals do not have a  
time delay between the rays.

It is a fascinating paper that hams interested in HF propagation  
should read.  Unfortunately, I have not found a free version on the  
web that I can reference, even though the research was done using tax  
payer's money at what is today NIST.  But if you are an IEEE member,  
you can download the paper for free.

73
Chen, W7AY





__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[David Gilbert]

Hi, Bill.

All true, but I thought that implementing it at audio might have some 
advantages ... assuming at least that someone already had the sub receiver:

a.  Cheaper.  The DXE unit is $500 ... considerably more than that if 
you buy the active antennas as well.
b.  More versatile.  Since the audio can be easily digitized using the 
sound card, almost anything could be done with the result via software.
c.  No need for separate receive and transmit antennas, or to maintain a 
large spacing between receive and transmit antennas.

Alan has verified your point about relative phase of the two receivers 
changing with frequency, so that indeed would have to be accounted for.  
It's also true that something like a 4-Square would have a major 
advantage by offering gain on transmit as well as pattern on receive.

In any case, I only suggested all of this for possible exploration.  I 
don't have anything at stake here if it turns out to be a dumb idea.

73,
Dave   AB7E





On 9/16/2010 9:49 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:
>
> David Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> Playing around with this stuff got me thinking, though.  What if I fed
>> the output from two VERTICAL antennas into the K3 receivers in diversity
>> mode, fed the audio output of both receivers into the A and B channels
>> of the computer sound card, and used an application that introduced an
>> adjustable delay in one audio channel before summing the two channels
>> and doing the D/A translation back to monaural audio?  Wouldn't that
>> have the exact same effect as being able to adjust the phase of the
>> incoming RF, and therefore the directivity of the 2 element vertical
>> array?
>>
> Good idea, already implemented by MFJ, DXE and others:
>
> http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-1025
> http://www.dxengineering.com/Parts.asp?ID=1227&PLID=215&SecID=114&DeptID=12&PartNo=DXE-NCC-1
>
> This reminds me of one SDR guru who proposed using 4 SDR transceivers to
> emulate a 4-square.  A multi-K$ solution to a $350 problem (i.e. one 4SQ
> controller box)...not to mention the need for 4 separate feedlines, 4
> amplifiers, etc.
>
> 73,  Bill
>
> P.S.  I believe one problem with what you proposed above is that phase would
> need to be readjusted every time you touched the VFO...i.e. phase is locked
> (i.e. meaning the phase differential is fixed) but the actual phase offset
> between the two RXs changes each time the synthesizer changes.  Lyle can
> correct me if I'm wrong.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Jack Smith]

  If you plot the fade statistics for HF signals, however, you find many 
times that the result looks much more like Rician fading than Rayleigh.

Jack K8ZOA


On 9/16/2010 2:11 PM, Kok Chen wrote:
> On Sep 16, 2010, at 9/169:59 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>
>>   A VERY large component of fading is due to multipath -- that is,
>> the arrival of more two or more wavefronts that travel different
>> paths, and
>> thus have slightly different travel times.
> Selective fading does not require multipath.  The CCIR 520-2 profiles
> for Raleigh fading are all single path models.  Raleigh fading causes
> selective fading.
>
> http://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-F.520-2-199203-W/en
>
> Whenever you hear distorted AM signals on HF, chances are it is caused
> by selective fading.  You can see selective fading in a waterfall by
> watching the fading occur as moving holes that sweep across the
> spectrum (very visible when you tune in broadband signal such as a
> Coast Guard weather FAX station on HF).  You can also see it take away
> individual tones in an Olivia signal in a waterfall.  Selective fading
> was also one of the primary impetus to switch from on-off keying to
> FSK in the early days of RTTY.
>
> The Watterson model for ionospheric propagation breaks up a path into
> a complex signal with in-phase and quadrature components:
>
> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org:80/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?reload=true&arnumber=1090438
>
> Each component passes through a independent scattering function that
> have Gaussian random processes, both a Gaussian Doppler spreading term
> and also a Gaussian amplitude term.
>
> The modulus (i.e. "amplitude", or square root of power of the I and Q
> components) of a bivariate Gaussian random process happens to have
> Rayleigh distribution.  See references here (the Rician distribution
> is more general in that the mean of the components need not be zero):
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_distribution
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_distribution
>
> I.e., the amplitude of a signal whose I and Q components each have
> independent Gaussian statistics, has a Rayleigh distribution.
>
> As a consequence, a Rayleigh signal can cause selective fading without
> the need for a second path.  Since the Rayleigh probability density
> function has finite probability of being infinitesimally small, the
> fade has a chance of being very deep.
>
> If you run a signal through an HF Channel Simulator (such as AE4JY's
> PathSim or cocoaPath) set to rayleigh fading parameters, you will see
> selective fading.
>
> Watterson's paper also considers both the cases of multi- paths and
> multi- magneto-ionic rays that are scattered by the ionosphere.
>
> Multipath signals have a time delay, multiray signals do not have a
> time delay between the rays.
>
> It is a fascinating paper that hams interested in HF propagation
> should read.  Unfortunately, I have not found a free version on the
> web that I can reference, even though the research was done using tax
> payer's money at what is today NIST.  But if you are an IEEE member,
> you can download the paper for free.
>
> 73
> Chen, W7AY
>
>
>
>
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[David Gilbert]

Well, I was thinking mostly in terms of CW so I think delay and phase in 
the context of a single frequency are essentially the same.  I did give 
a bit of thought to what it would take to make it work for SSB, though, 
and while I am the last person on earth you'd ever want to consult on 
math, it seemed to me that maybe adding the shift in the frequency 
domain would work.  I.e., perform an FFT, add the shift, and then 
convert back to the time domain.  Does that have the correct effect?   
I'm just kind of guessing here.

LMOP  (larger matter of programming ... but less hardware)

Thanks for humoring me on the discussion!

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 9/16/2010 10:47 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> Yes, that should work, just switch the sub receiver antenna over to the
> main receiver to calibrate the phase.  I think you'd get the best
> accuracy by looking for a null and then subtracting 180 degrees.
>
> By the way, I think rather than an adjustable delay between the two
> channels you need an adjustable phase.  (If the phases of the two local
> oscillators in the K3 differ by X degrees, than all audio frequencies
> also differ by X degrees.)  There are a number of ways to do that, but
> probably the most straightforward is to re-convert each audio signal to
> "RF" (a few kHz) using local oscillators of the same frequency but
> different phases, and then convert back to baseband with a single LO.
> That could be done either with hardware or in software.
>
> Just a SMOP.  (Small matter of programming :=)
>
> Alan N1AL
>
>
> On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 10:08 -0700, David Gilbert wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply, Alan.
>>
>> That's interesting.  I didn't realize that the two receivers in the K3
>> had a random phase difference between them even when locked.  I noticed
>> differences in phase delay when I changed frequencies during my tests
>> with the two horizontal antennas on the tower, but I mostly attributed
>> that to different arrival angles for the different stations being
>> monitored, and different phase delay of the feed lines (expressed in
>> wavelengths) at the new frequencies.
>>
>> However, that random phase difference between the two receivers could be
>> adjusted out by momentarily feeding the same antenna into both receivers
>> at each new frequency.  That routing could be accomplished within the K3
>> if there was a quick and easy way to control whether or not the sub
>> receiver was switched to the AUX RF antenna when diversity mode is
>> active.  If that routing option took the form of a command, the whole
>> process could be done in software (either external or internal to the
>> K3) each time the frequency was changed ... albeit of course with some
>> settling delay while the phase difference was determined and adjusted out.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dave   AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/16/2010 8:42 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:
>>> Yes, I think that would work fine. There are two issues that I can
>>> think of: While the main and sub receivers are phase-coherent, the
>>> actual phase difference between them is random. I believe that if you
>>> change frequency it is not guaranteed that the phase difference will
>>> be the same. So every time you change frequency you may have to
>>> re-adjust the phase delay to get the antenna to "point" in the right
>>> direction.
>>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Lyle Johnson]

>   Alan has verified your point about relative phase of the two receivers
> changing with frequency, so that indeed would have to be accounted for.

A possible mod would be to feed the main synth to both receivers.  This 
would then only be good for diversity operation, but there would be no 
random phase change when tuning.

The DSPs do not have this relative phase change issue.  The dual A/D is 
driven by one clock on the main DSP board.  The ADC output is fed to the 
Aux DSP, but not clocked by the Aux DSP.  Thus, the sampling offset and 
any delays are fixed and constant.  DSP filter delays are also constant 
as long as you do not use the IIR filters for 100 Hz and 50 Hz 
bandwidth.  I am not certain if the actions of AutoNotch and/or Noise 
Reduction would introduce any relative phase changes -- assuming 
activation in both receivers, of course!

73,

Lyle KK7P
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[David Gilbert]

Hi, Lyle.

Thanks for the comment.  If nothing else, I'm learning from this discussion.

Actually, until Alan pointed out that they were different, I thought 
that the two receivers WERE driven by the same main synth in diversity 
mode.  If it were possible to have that option when in diversity mode, 
that would seem to greatly simplify what I was suggesting.

73,
Dave   AB7E




On 9/16/2010 11:35 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
>>Alan has verified your point about relative phase of the two receivers
>> changing with frequency, so that indeed would have to be accounted for.
> A possible mod would be to feed the main synth to both receivers.  This
> would then only be good for diversity operation, but there would be no
> random phase change when tuning.
>
> The DSPs do not have this relative phase change issue.  The dual A/D is
> driven by one clock on the main DSP board.  The ADC output is fed to the
> Aux DSP, but not clocked by the Aux DSP.  Thus, the sampling offset and
> any delays are fixed and constant.  DSP filter delays are also constant
> as long as you do not use the IIR filters for 100 Hz and 50 Hz
> bandwidth.  I am not certain if the actions of AutoNotch and/or Noise
> Reduction would introduce any relative phase changes -- assuming
> activation in both receivers, of course!
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Alan Bloom]

On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 11:29 -0700, David Gilbert wrote:
> 
> Well, I was thinking mostly in terms of CW so I think delay and phase in 
> the context of a single frequency are essentially the same.  I did give 
> a bit of thought to what it would take to make it work for SSB, though, 
> and while I am the last person on earth you'd ever want to consult on 
> math, it seemed to me that maybe adding the shift in the frequency 
> domain would work.  I.e., perform an FFT, add the shift, and then 
> convert back to the time domain.  Does that have the correct effect?   
> I'm just kind of guessing here.

Yes, that would be another way to do it.  Determine the phase of each
complex FFT frequency point (arctangent of imaginary/real), add the
proper phase, and then do an inverse FFT to get back to the time domain.
To get a continuous signal you have to choose the proper windowing
function and the amount of overlap of the sample sets in the time
domain.

Yet another way to do it is to design an all-pass network with a nearly
constant phase shift over the frequency band of interest.  That could be
done with either an FIR or IIR digital filter, but the coefficients
would have to be re-calculated for each desired phase shift.

I'm thinking it would be easier to do the method where you heterodyne to
"RF" using LOs of different phase and then downconvert back to baseband.
That can be done all in software.

Alan


> LMOP  (larger matter of programming ... but less hardware)
> 
> Thanks for humoring me on the discussion!
> 
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/16/2010 10:47 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> > Yes, that should work, just switch the sub receiver antenna over to the
> > main receiver to calibrate the phase.  I think you'd get the best
> > accuracy by looking for a null and then subtracting 180 degrees.
> >
> > By the way, I think rather than an adjustable delay between the two
> > channels you need an adjustable phase.  (If the phases of the two local
> > oscillators in the K3 differ by X degrees, than all audio frequencies
> > also differ by X degrees.)  There are a number of ways to do that, but
> > probably the most straightforward is to re-convert each audio signal to
> > "RF" (a few kHz) using local oscillators of the same frequency but
> > different phases, and then convert back to baseband with a single LO.
> > That could be done either with hardware or in software.
> >
> > Just a SMOP.  (Small matter of programming :=)
> >
> > Alan N1AL
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 10:08 -0700, David Gilbert wrote:
> >> Thanks for the reply, Alan.
> >>
> >> That's interesting.  I didn't realize that the two receivers in the K3
> >> had a random phase difference between them even when locked.  I noticed
> >> differences in phase delay when I changed frequencies during my tests
> >> with the two horizontal antennas on the tower, but I mostly attributed
> >> that to different arrival angles for the different stations being
> >> monitored, and different phase delay of the feed lines (expressed in
> >> wavelengths) at the new frequencies.
> >>
> >> However, that random phase difference between the two receivers could be
> >> adjusted out by momentarily feeding the same antenna into both receivers
> >> at each new frequency.  That routing could be accomplished within the K3
> >> if there was a quick and easy way to control whether or not the sub
> >> receiver was switched to the AUX RF antenna when diversity mode is
> >> active.  If that routing option took the form of a command, the whole
> >> process could be done in software (either external or internal to the
> >> K3) each time the frequency was changed ... albeit of course with some
> >> settling delay while the phase difference was determined and adjusted out.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Dave   AB7E
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/16/2010 8:42 AM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> >>> Yes, I think that would work fine. There are two issues that I can
> >>> think of: While the main and sub receivers are phase-coherent, the
> >>> actual phase difference between them is random. I believe that if you
> >>> change frequency it is not guaranteed that the phase difference will
> >>> be the same. So every time you change frequency you may have to
> >>> re-adjust the phase delay to get the antenna to "point" in the right
> >>> direction.
> >>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Alan Bloom]

Hi Dave,

For some reason I got several copies of your message.  I'll go ahead and
post my reply to the reflector since it may be of wider interest.

Yes, another way to get a constant phase shift at all frequencies is to
convert to an I/Q (in-phase/quadrature) signal.  One way to do that is
to take the audio signal and run it through an all-pass network with a
constant 90-degree phase shift at all frequencies.  That is then the "Q"
signal and the original non-shifted signal is the "I".  You can then
obtain any desired phase shift by adding the two signals together with
the proper weighting factor for each.  For example, if you weight I and
Q by the same factor you get 45 degrees.

But that still requires a wide-band 90-degree phase shift network.  It
can be done with a FIR or IIR digital filter.  I think there are some
free filter design programs on the web that can design an all-pass
network.  It may need to be a big filter (i.e. lots of coefficients) to
get good amplitude and phase accuracy over a 10:1 frequency range (300
Hz to 3 kHz).

The other way to get the I/Q signals is with an I/Q modulator.
Basically you run the baseband audio signal into two mixers whose local
oscillators are 90 degrees out of phase.  Now you have two RF signals 90
degrees out of phase.  If you convert them back to baseband with the
same oscillator you get two audio signals 90 degrees out of phase and
can combine them as before.  You then combine that signal with the
original to simulate rotation of the directional antenna.

I still think the easiest method is what I first suggested.  Like the
I/Q modulator except that, instead of a 90-degree phase shift, you
adjust the relative phase of the two oscillators.  When you convert back
to baseband the two signals are already at the correct phase, ready to
be combined to simulate the directional antenna.

Alan


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[David Gilbert]

That sounds very good, Alan.  As I say, I'm not very knowledgeable on 
signal processing so all of this is very interesting to me.  I guess 
whether any of it ultimately turns out to be useful to anyone remains to 
be seen.

Regarding the multiple posts ... my ISP has been acting very flaky this 
afternoon and it kept telling me that the message upload had failed.  
Not sure what's going on there, but I'm sorry for the extra clutter.

Thanks again es 73,
Dave   AB7E




On 9/16/2010 1:55 PM, Alan Bloom wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> For some reason I got several copies of your message.  I'll go ahead and
> post my reply to the reflector since it may be of wider interest.
>
> Yes, another way to get a constant phase shift at all frequencies is to
> convert to an I/Q (in-phase/quadrature) signal.  One way to do that is
> to take the audio signal and run it through an all-pass network with a
> constant 90-degree phase shift at all frequencies.  That is then the "Q"
> signal and the original non-shifted signal is the "I".  You can then
> obtain any desired phase shift by adding the two signals together with
> the proper weighting factor for each.  For example, if you weight I and
> Q by the same factor you get 45 degrees.
>
> But that still requires a wide-band 90-degree phase shift network.  It
> can be done with a FIR or IIR digital filter.  I think there are some
> free filter design programs on the web that can design an all-pass
> network.  It may need to be a big filter (i.e. lots of coefficients) to
> get good amplitude and phase accuracy over a 10:1 frequency range (300
> Hz to 3 kHz).
>
> The other way to get the I/Q signals is with an I/Q modulator.
> Basically you run the baseband audio signal into two mixers whose local
> oscillators are 90 degrees out of phase.  Now you have two RF signals 90
> degrees out of phase.  If you convert them back to baseband with the
> same oscillator you get two audio signals 90 degrees out of phase and
> can combine them as before.  You then combine that signal with the
> original to simulate rotation of the directional antenna.
>
> I still think the easiest method is what I first suggested.  Like the
> I/Q modulator except that, instead of a 90-degree phase shift, you
> adjust the relative phase of the two oscillators.  When you convert back
> to baseband the two signals are already at the correct phase, ready to
> be combined to simulate the directional antenna.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Kok Chen]

I just rummaged around in Google and found a different paper that  
Watterson wrote related to HF propagation and digital modes (almost 10  
years after his HF channel model paper):

http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-rpt/79-29/79-29.pdf

His conclusion definitely advocates the use of diversity reception.

Discussion of HF Channel model starts on page 35 (yes, gigantic  
manuscript), discussion on using separate receiving antennas on page  
46, use of matched filters on page 51, diversity reception on page 72.

73
Chen, W7AY

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Kok Chen]

On Sep 16, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Alan Bloom wrote:

> I think there are some free filter design programs on the web that can design 
> an all-pass network.  It may need to be a big filter (i.e. lots of 
> coefficients) to get good amplitude and phase accuracy over a 10:1 frequency 
> range (300 Hz to 3 kHz).

All-pass 90 degree networks (Hilbert Transforms) are really not that tough to 
implement anymore with the speed of today's computers.  

Just a couple of weeks ago, I did an implementation of cocoaPath's Hilbert 
transformer using Grand Central Dispatch to see how many cores I can use up 
concurrently.  I ended up with a Hilbert transformer for 3 kHz passband (100 Hz 
to 3.1 kHz) with 16000 samples/second that ran at 300x real time on an 8 core 
Intel processor.   Source code is free if anyone is interested.

Unlike the good old analog days (you can find an analog design in Paul W1HFA's 
"Art of Electronics" book) you can get much more accurate quadratures using 
digital Hilbert transforms. The one is cocoaPath is good to 2.5 milli-degrees 
(yes, 2.5 thousandths of a degree deviation) over a span of 3 kHz.  You can see 
the plots of the phase accuracy in Figures 3-2 and 3-3 here

http://homepage.mac.com/chen/w7ay/cocoaPath/Contents/technical.html

They are not a very long FIRs either -- two 511 tap filters, one to create the 
in-phase signal and one to create the quadrature signal.

If the passband that you need is much narrower than the sampling rate, it is 
probably cheaper to just remodulate using sine/cosine "local oscillators" 
followed by low pass decimation filters (like what the SoftRock analog hardware 
does, but more accurately in the digital world :-).

73
Chen, W7AY

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[Jim Brown]

On Thu, 16 Sep 2010 12:06:23 -0700, David Gilbert wrote:

>I thought 
>that the two receivers WERE driven by the same main synth in diversity 
>mode.  If it were possible to have that option when in diversity mode, 
>that would seem to greatly simplify what I was suggesting.

YES!

Jim K9YC


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Diversity Reception and Antenna Directivity

[David Woolley (E.L)]

Of course the K3 has already done most of this, and then thrown Q away 
at the last minute.  The upconvert is, of course, done by the transmitter.

Alan Bloom wrote:

> The other way to get the I/Q signals is with an I/Q modulator.
> Basically you run the baseband audio signal into two mixers whose local
> oscillators are 90 degrees out of phase.  Now you have two RF signals 90
> degrees out of phase.  If you convert them back to baseband with the
> same oscillator you get two audio signals 90 degrees out of phase and
> can combine them as before.  You then combine that signal with the
> original to simulate rotation of the directional antenna.
> 


-- 
David Woolley
"we do not overly restrict the subject matter on the list, and we
encourage postings on a wide range of amateur radio related topics"
List Guidelines 
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html