Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/8/06 8:29:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Field Day rules should change to allow a CW station to operate QRP and get the added score for being QRP, with another station working SSB at 1500 watts who get the usual 1 point, per contact. It's not about mode-vs.-mode. It's about being able to mix various power levels in the same group. Not sure who to write and ask for the change. ARRL Contest Committee. Also put it in the Soapbox comments on the ARRL website. But it has to be presented the right way. CW-vs.-SSB isn't the right way, because non-phone modes already get double the points. The way the trend is, it is more likely we will see 5 points for each email originated via Winlink as a future score. -- _____ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ John L. Sielke ( W )( 2 )( A )( G )( N ) http://w2agn.net \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ http://www.blurty.com/users/w2agn CRUSTY OLD CURMUDGEON, AND PROUD OF IT (AGN and AGN? are Trademarks of John L. Sielke and may not be used without permission) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
You could have a scoring system based on power levels. The RSGB low power contest has a power level related scoring system that works well. See: http://www.contesting.co.uk/hfcc/rules/rqrp.shtml 73 Dave, G4AON ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
Dave wrote: You could have a scoring system based on power levels. The RSGB low power contest has a power level related scoring system that works well. See: Field Day does have a scoring system based on power levels. The change desired is to allow different power levels to exist at a site and score them not all at the highest power, but rather at the actual power they are using. 73 Karl http://www.contesting.co.uk/hfcc/rules/rqrp.shtml 73 Dave, G4AON ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
In a message dated 7/8/06 9:54:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . I additionally commented that I would like to see Battery allow all battery efforts at any power level using the exiting power level bonus structure. How would that work? As it stands now, 151 to 1500 watts gets a power multiplier of 1 0 to 150 watts gets a power multiplier of 2 0 to 5 watts *and* a power source other than commercial mains or generator gets you power multiplier of 5 What multiplier should a 5 to 150 W Battery station get? 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
How would that work? additional elided What multiplier should a 5 to 150 W Battery station get? 5 to 150 Battery would get a multiplier of 2, but would be noted as a Battery subclass. 73 de Jim, N2EY Clark B. Wierda N8CBW ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
In a message dated 7/8/06 10:31:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . So it splits our club. The CW lovers go to their own FD and run QRP. The rest go to the Club FD and work SSB. If we have diversity in power then the two groups can work together. This is a key selling point to present to the contest folks at ARRL. Your club would better serve the purpose of FD if the group could be unified. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
No, the battery subclass REQUIRES that all contacts be made on 5W or less. This would be a class A operation with a power multuplier of 2. This is part of the confusion. Power mults and power output requirements should not be mixed. The battery class should be a separate class (as it is), but allowing any amount of power (which it is not), and the multiplier should then be applied afterward. Brian -Original Message- From: Clark B. Wierda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 12:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?) How would that work? additional elided What multiplier should a 5 to 150 W Battery station get? 5 to 150 Battery would get a multiplier of 2, but would be noted as a Battery subclass. 73 de Jim, N2EY Clark B. Wierda N8CBW ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
I am with you Jim. Field Day rules should change to allow a CW station to operate QRP and get the added score for being QRP, with another station working SSB at 1500 watts who get the usual 1 point, per contact. Not sure who to write and ask for the change. But this last FD QRP SSB was just not practical. 73 Karl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/7/06 3:16:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While the Battery subclass is limited to 5W, the Alternative Power Bonus is not. We were running 100W on Battery for one of our stations using Solar Panels as the power source. I also agree that the Battery subclass should allow more power. There would still be the QRP power multiplier to account for the power level. My club might be willing to go to all battery, but would not be willing to give up 13db. I think there are a couple different issues here. First off, the power levels aren't equally spaced. 5 W to 150 W is almost 15 dB, but 150 W to 1500 W is only 10 dB. Second, a multitransmitter setup has to use the power of the highest-power station in the setup. IOW, if it's not all QRP, it's not QRP at all. It didn't used to be that way - until 1971, a multitransmitter setup could have multiple power categories and multipliers. I think we should go back to the way it was before 1971. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
In a message dated 7/8/06 8:29:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Field Day rules should change to allow a CW station to operate QRP and get the added score for being QRP, with another station working SSB at 1500 watts who get the usual 1 point, per contact. It's not about mode-vs.-mode. It's about being able to mix various power levels in the same group. Not sure who to write and ask for the change. ARRL Contest Committee. Also put it in the Soapbox comments on the ARRL website. But it has to be presented the right way. CW-vs.-SSB isn't the right way, because non-phone modes already get double the points. I would say this: One of the main purposes and core values of Field Day is diversity. The rules and scoring methods support that, by rewarding many different Amateur Radio activities with multipliers and bonus points. But in the area of power level, strict conformity is imposed on multitransmitter Field Day groups. By making the most powerful transmitter the power level of the whole group, the incentive to diversify operations by power level is eliminated. This is contrary to the spirit of the event! Before 1971, multitransmitter FD groups could claim different power multipliers for different rigs. According to the QST announcement of the time, this rule was changed to simplify the reporting and log keeping. Considering how much the rules have changed over the years, and how much of the logging and reporting has been computerized, the rules should be changed again to allow different power multipliers for different band/modes. If enough of us write to the ARRL Contest Committee with words like that, we might be successful. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While the Battery subclass is limited to 5W, the Alternative Power Bonus is not. We were running 100W on Battery for one of our stations using Solar Panels as the power source. Hope you don't think that the alternative power bonus can be made with a higher power level and you can still use a 5x power multiplier. The rules are very clear: the highest power used for ANY contact is what you use to determine your power multiplier. If you do 1000 contacts at 5W and do ten alternative power contacts at 100W, your power multiplier is 2. There is no special exemption for alternative power; in fact it even qualifies as a transmitter for purposes of establishing class. Good luck proposing changes to the rules. I have not had much luck getting Dan Henderson to fix the inconsistencies in the FD rules. He has been totally unwilling to change them. I think he just took a new job though, so perhaps the new FD person will fix the morass he created. For example, I pointed out to him that everyone who operates class A and AB gets to claim the emergency power bonus, because a requirement of class A is that all contacts are made independent of commercial mains. His answer was that that's true unless you use commercial mains anyway, which puts you in class A-commercial...say what!?!. Before about 1992, the emergency power bonus was a true bonus, applied only when everything at the site (coffeepots, lights, etc.) was run off generator or batteries. They changed that rule to accommodate groups who wanted to use incidental light because of where they set up (e.g., a park with lights, or a building where they could use existing lights). I pointed out that a simple allowance for the use of incidental light in the FAQ would have fixed this. But Dan stubbornly refused to fix this - or that nonsensical Class A Commercial subgroup. In recent years, ARRL has tried to remove the contest aspect from FD. Even in my local club, some members griped that FD was meant to be fun and not a contest. That trivializes a serious effort to do well AND have fun. If they turn FD into a fun event and eliminate scoring, this FD regular in 4A will quit. 73, Brian, W0DZ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Karl Larsen Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 6:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?) I am with you Jim. Field Day rules should change to allow a CW station to operate QRP and get the added score for being QRP, with another station working SSB at 1500 watts who get the usual 1 point, per contact. Not sure who to write and ask for the change. But this last FD QRP SSB was just not practical. 73 Karl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/7/06 3:16:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While the Battery subclass is limited to 5W, the Alternative Power Bonus is not. We were running 100W on Battery for one of our stations using Solar Panels as the power source. I also agree that the Battery subclass should allow more power. There would still be the QRP power multiplier to account for the power level. My club might be willing to go to all battery, but would not be willing to give up 13db. I think there are a couple different issues here. First off, the power levels aren't equally spaced. 5 W to 150 W is almost 15 dB, but 150 W to 1500 W is only 10 dB. Second, a multitransmitter setup has to use the power of the highest-power station in the setup. IOW, if it's not all QRP, it's not QRP at all. It didn't used to be that way - until 1971, a multitransmitter setup could have multiple power categories and multipliers. I think we should go back to the way it was before 1971. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/8/06 8:29:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Field Day rules should change to allow a CW station to operate QRP and get the added score for being QRP, with another station working SSB at 1500 watts who get the usual 1 point, per contact. It's not about mode-vs.-mode. It's about being able to mix various power levels in the same group. Not sure who to write and ask for the change. ARRL Contest Committee. Also put it in the Soapbox comments on the ARRL website. But it has to be presented the right way. CW-vs.-SSB isn't the right way, because non-phone modes already get double the points. I would say this: One of the main purposes and core values of Field Day is diversity. The rules and scoring methods support that, by rewarding many different Amateur Radio activities with multipliers and bonus points. But in the area of power level, strict conformity is imposed on multitransmitter Field Day groups. By making the most powerful transmitter the power level of the whole group, the incentive to diversify operations by power level is eliminated. This is contrary to the spirit of the event! Before 1971, multitransmitter FD groups could claim different power multipliers for different rigs. According to the QST announcement of the time, this rule was changed to simplify the reporting and log keeping. Considering how much the rules have changed over the years, and how much of the logging and reporting has been computerized, the rules should be changed again to allow different power multipliers for different band/modes. If enough of us write to the ARRL Contest Committee with words like that, we might be successful. 73 de Jim, N2EY Your right Jim. I will write and be clear that I mean in the same FD group. The Radio Club I belong to is like 99.9% of all the others. Most Hams like SSB. A small vocal group likes CW. So it splits our club. The CW lovers go to their own FD and run QRP. The rest go to the Club FD and work SSB. If we have diversity in power then the two groups can work together. 73 Karl K5DI ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
In a message dated 7/8/06 10:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: perhaps the new FD person will fix the morass he created. That depends in part on how he is approached. A negative approach will usually produce a negative response. And a group request will probably have more impact than one person. For example, I pointed out to him that everyone who operates class A and AB gets to claim the emergency power bonus, because a requirement of class A is that all contacts are made independent of commercial mains. His answer was that that's true unless you use commercial mains anyway, which puts you in class A-commercial...say what!?!. That was done for a bunch of reasons. Some groups have a lot of trouble with emergency power - the generator doesn't show up, won't start, etc. Should they not do FD at all, or be lumped in with home stations? Or should they fudge the report and say they were 100% emergency power when they weren't? By listing them as 1A Commercial, they participate, but not against emergency power groups. Best of all worlds. Before about 1992, the emergency power bonus was a true bonus, applied only when everything at the site (coffeepots, lights, etc.) was run off generator or batteries. They changed that rule to accommodate groups who wanted to use incidental light because of where they set up (e.g., a park with lights, or a building where they could use existing lights). I pointed out that a simple allowance for the use of incidental light in the FAQ would have fixed this. But Dan stubbornly refused to fix this - or that nonsensical Class A Commercial subgroup. There was a time when emergency power wasn't a bonus - it was a *multiplier*! It's not just about incidental light, though. It's about getting FD sites in a world where the classic open field is becoming increasingly hard to find. And where the amateur population includes more and more folks who aren't used to or aren't able to rough it. For example, suppose a local middle school cafeteria is available for an FD site. No existing radio facilities, good parking and access, and a big open field for antennas. The site also boasts clean bathrooms, a ready-to-go kitchen, long, solid tables, lighting, and air conditioning! Should such a site be off limits to A and B groups? In recent years, ARRL has tried to remove the contest aspect from FD. Even in my local club, some members griped that FD was meant to be fun and not a contest. That trivializes a serious effort to do well AND have fun. Different definitions of fun. The great strength and weakness of FD is that it's so many different things: emergency exercise, contest, social event, training school, camping excursion, get-newcomers-on-the-air opportunity, rig/antenna comparison shootout, publicity stunt, and much more. If they turn FD into a fun event and eliminate scoring, this FD regular in 4A will quit. The way to prevent that is for each of us to make our views known in an *inclusive* way. 73 de Jim, N2EY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
Our effort was a 100W effort. The transmitter used was the normal transmitter for one of the four stations. Therefore, using 100W from solar is legal. I never implied anything else. Are you saying our solar bonus is invalid? The original comment was a clarification of the statment about the Alternative Power bonus which is not limited to 5W. I additionally commented that I would like to see Battery allow all battery efforts at any power level using the exiting power level bonus structure. This change in the focus of the message is why I changed the subject. -- Clark B. Wierda N8CBW [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While the Battery subclass is limited to 5W, the Alternative Power Bonus is not. We were running 100W on Battery for one of our stations using Solar Panels as the power source. Hope you don't think that the alternative power bonus can be made with a higher power level and you can still use a 5x power multiplier. The rules rest elided ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
Just a clarification. While the Battery subclass is limited to 5W, the Alternative Power Bonus is not. We were running 100W on Battery for one of our stations using Solar Panels as the power source. I also agree that the Battery subclass should allow more power. There would still be the QRP power multiplier to account for the power level. My club might be willing to go to all battery, but would not be willing to give up 13db. I'm for recognizing the additional effort to do an all battery FD with the Battery subclass. I don't think we should then penalize them by restricting the power they can use. The effort required for Battery is strongly related to the power level. If an organization wants to go to the additional effort to run 100W on battery for Field Day, they should be allowed to so so. Just have them get the normal multiplier for the level they run. -- Clark B. Wierda N8CBW
Re: [Elecraft] FD Battery rules (was QRP Power Level?)
In a message dated 7/7/06 3:16:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: While the Battery subclass is limited to 5W, the Alternative Power Bonus is not. We were running 100W on Battery for one of our stations using Solar Panels as the power source. I also agree that the Battery subclass should allow more power. There would still be the QRP power multiplier to account for the power level. My club might be willing to go to all battery, but would not be willing to give up 13db. I think there are a couple different issues here. First off, the power levels aren't equally spaced. 5 W to 150 W is almost 15 dB, but 150 W to 1500 W is only 10 dB. Second, a multitransmitter setup has to use the power of the highest-power station in the setup. IOW, if it's not all QRP, it's not QRP at all. It didn't used to be that way - until 1971, a multitransmitter setup could have multiple power categories and multipliers. I think we should go back to the way it was before 1971. 73 de Jim, N2EY
