Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
I hope people do not make the mistake of using in-the-ear earbuds with ham radios, even the K3. These in-the-ear phones like the etymotic or the shure have to be put pretty deep into the ear canal to seal and provide isolation. They are wonderful for hi-fi. I use a pair by Shure to listen to Brahms on airplanes. BUT, they take at least a few seconds to extract from your ears. If, as has been reported on this reflector several times, the radio mis-functions and puts out a very loud audio signal, your ears will be fried before you can react. DON'T DO IT Oliver W6ODJ On 7 Feb 2010, at 3:21 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote: > > "High isolation headphones" below means ~30 dB isolation from ambient noise. > Heil does not make any in this range and most active noise reduction > headphones (e.g. Bose) only have 10-15 dB. Here are some examples of what > Barry meant: > > http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ex-29.html > http://www.sennheiserusa.com/private_headphones_dj-headphones_004974 > http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er6.aspx > > These are all available in the $75-100 range. > > 73, Bill > > > Doug Turnbull wrote: >> >> Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would >> the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? >> 73 Doug EI2CN >> >> -Original Message- >> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net >> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU >> Sent: 07 February 2010 01:01 >> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work >> >> >> >> Barry N1EU wrote: >>> >>> You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to >>> turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying >>> levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works >>> fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling >>> techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. >>> >> Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup >> reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones >> are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are >> lightly >> heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range >> delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear >> fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic >> range >> (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). >> >> 73, >> Barry N1EU >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html >> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> >> > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4528787.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Paul, you aren't old enough! On Feb 7, 2010, at 1:07 PM, p...@n4lcd.com wrote: > This is what I use to isolate my self from XYL, kid, grandkid, and > great grandkid QRM. - Jack Brindle, W6FB - __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Doug Turnbull wrote: >Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would >the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? > 73 Doug EI2CN This is what I use to isolate my self from XYL, kid, grandkid, and great grandkid QRM. http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ Works great. Paul N4LCD __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry N1EU wrote: > > If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk > overly loud audio from stronger signals. > I just realized that the above wording might have caused confusion. What I meant by raising AGC Threshold was to change the firmware to accommodate the requests of those who posted that the existing "8" wasn't high enough. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529882.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry N1EU wrote: > > If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk > overly loud audio from stronger signals. > I just realized that the above wording might have caused confusion. What I meant by raising AGC Threshold was to change the firmware to accommodate the requests of those who posted that the existing "8" wasn't high enough. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529874.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
> When I throttle the gain, I notice that lowering Threshold lowers audio > level of stronger signals. > > 73, > Barry N1EU As it should, because you lowered the reference signal level at DSP input which the AGC "bites". It also means that by throttling the gain, you have created a situation where YOUR choice of threshold actually has an effect. 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Don Wilhelm-4 wrote: > > I do not believe that is true, and the graphs at > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR > bear the real facts as well. > Raising the AGC Threshold allows stronger weak signals (less than -100 > dBm for THR=008) NOT to activate the AGC. > The graphs are dependent on gain level that is set in the rx. If there's any hope of alleviating pileup mush by raising Threshold level, I believe it would be true (that stronger signals will raise audio level). When I throttle the gain, I notice that lowering Threshold lowers audio level of stronger signals. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529522.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
It would be interesting to know what all is used to create the signal on VIFGAIN1 on the RF board. It is at least some derivative of the signal from the "RF" gain control. 73, Guy. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > Barry, > > I do not believe that is true, and the graphs at > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR > bear the real facts as well. > Raising the AGC Threshold allows stronger weak signals (less than -100 > dBm for THR=008) NOT to activate the AGC. Stronger signals will still > activate AGC. The Hardware AGC is not changed by the threshold setting. > The result is the range over which the AGC operates, and that is > different than the dynamic range of the receiver. > > The Gain Throttling talk has mostly been with reference to the > amplification of atmospheric noise rather than the detection of weak > signals. While related, I do not think they are the same. > > The preamp and attenuator DO translate the receiver dynamic range to a > higher or lower level - and the hardware AGC trigger point is translated > as well. Since the RF Gain is really an IF gain, it does not alter the > onset of hardware AGC. Lyle would have to comment on whether the DSP > AGC is developed before or after the IF gain is applied, I do not know. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > Barry N1EU wrote: >> If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk >> overly loud audio from stronger signals. So what you would effectively be >> doing is translating upwards the K3's dynamic range into higher rf levels. >> This is NOT good practice - you want to keep the dynamic range operating at >> lower rf levels (thus all the talk of gain throttling). >> >> 73, >> Barry N1EU >> >> > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Hello Juan, Thanks for your e-mail. I will reply in full after I return home this evening, off-list if my answer is long. The symptoms, and the cures suggested, strongly suggest that it is a well known type of IMD problem caused by the IF hardware - which includes the roofing filter. I understand the AGC recovery problem that you mention, but do you know if the in-passband IMD products of the FT1000MP were actually measured? To measure IMD products with both test signals inside a CW bandwidth passband usually requires crystal controlled generators for reasons of low phase noise, especially if the receiver's in-passband odd-order dynamic range is large. Increasing bandwidth to allow much wider spacings of the test signals usually paints a false picture, because the signal handling capability of narrow bandwidth crystal filters is usually worse than that of the wider filters. 73, Geoff GM4ESD On Sunday, February 07, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Juan EA5RS wrote: Are you guys sure this is a frequency domain problem? Has anyone measured those IMD products under the mentioned conditions and concluded from the results that they are the culprit for the mushy (somewhat vague description) audio that makes impossible to copy the different callsigns? Some W6s measured in a lab test setup a similar effect on the FT1000MP years ago and found that the problem was the AGC recovering too fast (in between symbols) making all signals sound as loud as others. The solution was to increase the time constant. The loudest signal would then set the radio gain level. Then characters in-between from weaker signals sounded weaker making them distinct (or maybe buried). I cant think why you would ever need a recovery time constant any shorter than say 150 ms, while shorter time constants are normally used -reading Clifton I think the FAST setting in the K3 is 73 ms-. At 60 WPM, a dit is 20ms long if I am not mistaken, and an intersymbols spacing (7 time units) to full gain recovery seems the shortest time that would be necessary for the receiver to recover full gain. 73 de Juan EA5RS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
I don't believe so. I'm recommending using only just enough RF/IF gain to produce moderately low audio from ambient noise on a clear frequency. You can set the AGC threshold anywhere you want according to taste. Some are using NO AGC and the audio limiter to expand "threshold" to the audio limiter level. I'm proposing that there is a moderation point between one extreme of ambient noise shoved up into the AGC reduction range and the other of no AGC at all. And that changing RF gain during a pile up can maximize amplitude discrimination. Particularly for contests, NOT reducing the RF/IF gain per band on the lower bands just shoves the ambient noise up to a roar where the AGC winds up REDUCING wanted signals down to the level where noise has been BROUGHT UP, reducing the apparent signal to noise as perceived by the ear/brain combination to zero, a researched and documented phenomenon that has been quite appropriately reported by some here as "mush". This uncomfortable state is amplified in a pile up where most of the discrete signals become "noise" for hearing purposes, and the already used up threshold in the AGC forces them all to the same level. "Mush" is a very good description. (One experiment I recall is asking someone to identify individual conversations out of a monaural recording of a school cafeteria at lunchtime -- only the very loudest can be discerned.) AGC under squished circumstances can make "mush" all by itself without any help from a purported (but never carefully measured and reported) IMD "problem". The AGC threshold engages at a fixed voltage out of the RF/IF string for each step. Only the protective hardware AGC is operative before this point. If your setting of PRE/ATT/RFGAIN places ambient noise at what should be reserved for an S3 signal, you have subtracted that from your selected threshold range, no matter what your threshold preferences. And at worst case have already engaged AGC for the ambient noise. Threshold should allow one to have some range where any level difference in competing signals come through to allow ear/brain to tell them apart, AND still have a top where leveling kicks in to protect the ears. 73, Guy. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Barry N1EU wrote: > > If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk > overly loud audio from stronger signals. So what you would effectively be > doing is translating upwards the K3's dynamic range into higher rf levels. > This is NOT good practice - you want to keep the dynamic range operating at > lower rf levels (thus all the talk of gain throttling). > > 73, > Barry N1EU > > > Guy, K2AV wrote: >> >> This is true, but seems to be a VERY hard point to get across. Running >> excess gain in RF/IF strip is at the root of some number of >> complaints. >> >> On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Barry N1EU wrote: >>> If gain were throttled (e.g., via ATT on, PRE off, reduced RF Gain), >>> wouldn't AGC Threshold be effectively raised? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry, I do not believe that is true, and the graphs at http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR bear the real facts as well. Raising the AGC Threshold allows stronger weak signals (less than -100 dBm for THR=008) NOT to activate the AGC. Stronger signals will still activate AGC. The Hardware AGC is not changed by the threshold setting. The result is the range over which the AGC operates, and that is different than the dynamic range of the receiver. The Gain Throttling talk has mostly been with reference to the amplification of atmospheric noise rather than the detection of weak signals. While related, I do not think they are the same. The preamp and attenuator DO translate the receiver dynamic range to a higher or lower level - and the hardware AGC trigger point is translated as well. Since the RF Gain is really an IF gain, it does not alter the onset of hardware AGC. Lyle would have to comment on whether the DSP AGC is developed before or after the IF gain is applied, I do not know. 73, Don W3FPR Barry N1EU wrote: > If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk > overly loud audio from stronger signals. So what you would effectively be > doing is translating upwards the K3's dynamic range into higher rf levels. > This is NOT good practice - you want to keep the dynamic range operating at > lower rf levels (thus all the talk of gain throttling). > > 73, > Barry N1EU > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk overly loud audio from stronger signals. So what you would effectively be doing is translating upwards the K3's dynamic range into higher rf levels. This is NOT good practice - you want to keep the dynamic range operating at lower rf levels (thus all the talk of gain throttling). 73, Barry N1EU Guy, K2AV wrote: > > This is true, but seems to be a VERY hard point to get across. Running > excess gain in RF/IF strip is at the root of some number of > complaints. > > On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Barry N1EU wrote: >> If gain were throttled (e.g., via ATT on, PRE off, reduced RF Gain), >> wouldn't AGC Threshold be effectively raised? > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529273.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
This is true, but seems to be a VERY hard point to get across. Running excess gain in RF/IF strip is at the root of some number of complaints. 73, Guy. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Barry N1EU wrote: > > > Dick Green WC1M-2 wrote: >> >> Dave indicates that the problem occurred when the pileup consisted of four >> or five loud stations. This leads me to wonder if the cause is the K3 >> hardware AGC threshold being too low, even after the mod introduced two >> years ago. >> > > If gain were throttled (e.g., via ATT on, PRE off, reduced RF Gain), > wouldn't AGC Threshold be effectively raised? > > 73, > Barry N1EU > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529079.html > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Dick Green WC1M-2 wrote: > > Dave indicates that the problem occurred when the pileup consisted of four > or five loud stations. This leads me to wonder if the cause is the K3 > hardware AGC threshold being too low, even after the mod introduced two > years ago. > If gain were throttled (e.g., via ATT on, PRE off, reduced RF Gain), wouldn't AGC Threshold be effectively raised? 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529079.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
The High isolation headphones are of course only going to help if you have much ambient noise in the shack. I find my Beyerdynamic DT234PRO headset very good. It's not a very high isolation headset but it's a fully closed design and my shack is reasonably quiet the DT234PRO is a headset that is produced for language lab type applications and widely used by PC gamers too, it's comfortable to wear for long periods of time and provides reasonable isolation from the surroundings. I get great audio reports from the microphone which is a back electoret condenser with a cardioid pattern. It has a presence peak (like most microphones intended for the spoken word, Heil did not 'invent' this..) and the cardioid pattern helps to reduce pick-up of any ambient noise It's completely Plug and play with the K3, plug it in the back and turn Microphone bias. I paid about 60 Euro for it on Ebay 73 Brendan EI6IZ On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 03:21 -0800, Bill W4ZV wrote: > "High isolation headphones" below means ~30 dB isolation from ambient noise. > Heil does not make any in this range and most active noise reduction > headphones (e.g. Bose) only have 10-15 dB. Here are some examples of what > Barry meant: > > http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ex-29.html > http://www.sennheiserusa.com/private_headphones_dj-headphones_004974 > http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er6.aspx > > These are all available in the $75-100 range. > > 73, Bill > > > Doug Turnbull wrote: > > > > Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would > > the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > -Original Message- > > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > > [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU > > Sent: 07 February 2010 01:01 > > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work > > > > > > > > Barry N1EU wrote: > >> > >> You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to > >> turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying > >> levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works > >> fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling > >> techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. > >> > > Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup > > reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones > > are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are > > lightly > > heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range > > delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear > > fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic > > range > > (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). > > > > 73, > > Barry N1EU > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > > http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html > > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > __ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > > > > __ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > > > -- 73 Brendan EI6IZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
High isolation earphones: A low cost solution is to use any in-ear type earphone that suits you plus a pair of common or garden ear defenders. The earphone lead should be as thin as possible so that the leakage around the lead as it exits the defender is as small as possible. Ear defenders I have come across make the head sweat and therefore uncomfortable after an hour or so; a cloth cover, such as aircraft headphones have is a solution, but reduces isolation slightly. David G3UNA > > > Doug Turnbull wrote: >> >> Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would >> the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? >> > > I'm only familiar with the Pro Set and that really doesn't have the level > of > isolation needed, as Bill said. I researched what drummers are using > during > live/recording sessions and ended up buying Sennheiser HD-280 phones, > which > work well. A bit more isolation could be had with in-ear phones or > perhaps > active isolation phones but the HD-280's are a significant step beyond the > Pro Set. > > 73, > Barry N1EU > > -- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Are you guys sure this is a frequency domain problem? Has anyone measured those IMD products under the mentioned conditions and concluded from the results that they are the culprit for the mushy (somewhat vague description) audio that makes impossible to copy the different callsigns? Some W6s measured in a lab test setup a similar effect on the FT1000MP years ago and found that the problem was the AGC recovering too fast (in between symbols) making all signals sound as loud as others. The solution was to increase the time constant. The loudest signal would then set the radio gain level. Then characters in-between from weaker signals sounded weaker making them distinct (or maybe buried). I cant think why you would ever need a recovery time constant any shorter than say 150 ms, while shorter time constants are normally used -reading Clifton I think the FAST setting in the K3 is 73 ms-. At 60 WPM, a dit is 20ms long if I am not mistaken, and an intersymbols spacing (7 time units) to full gain recovery seems the shortest time that would be necessary for the receiver to recover full gain. 73 de Juan EA5RS -Mensaje original- De: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] En nombre de Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy Enviado el: sábado, 06 de febrero de 2010 11:56 Para: Guy Olinger K2AV CC: Elecraft Discussion List Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Hi Guy, The problem reported has the classic characteristics of in-passband IMD caused by a small dynamic range (IMDDR3) IF system, rather than being something caused by the AGC sub-system. Yes changing the AGC's loop characteristics will alter the effect, but the root cause is still non-linearity in the signal path. I suspect the second mixer. Trouble is that large IMDDR3 IF systems can consume a lot of power, and low power drain by the K3's receiver was a design goal I believe. 73, Geoff GM4ESD On Saturday, February 06, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all > signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of > how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will > mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in > your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the > entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to > t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them > uncopyable. > > Make sure your ATT/PRE/RFGAIN use conforms to something like: > > 160m ATT plus RF gain at 2 oclock > 80m ATT plus RF gain at 3 oclock > 40m ATT plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 20m "" > 15m off plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 10m PRE plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 6m"" > > ...if you are listening on your transmit antenna. At least to start. > Make sure the ambient noise on the band is moderately low audio > listening on a clear frequency. > > Using the NB with those settings, including the ATT/PRE/RFGAIN > settings. Just today I was listening to an S4 Cuban underneath what > were S9/5 key clicks with the NB off. Offending station up 500 Hz at > 30 over 9 (really), and was using 250 filter running at WIDTH 350. > > Good luck in Sprint this weekend! > > 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Informacisn de NOD32, revisisn 4576 (20091105) __ Este mensaje ha sido analizado con NOD32 antivirus system http://www.nod32.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Doug Turnbull wrote: > > Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would > the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? > I'm only familiar with the Pro Set and that really doesn't have the level of isolation needed, as Bill said. I researched what drummers are using during live/recording sessions and ended up buying Sennheiser HD-280 phones, which work well. A bit more isolation could be had with in-ear phones or perhaps active isolation phones but the HD-280's are a significant step beyond the Pro Set. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4528969.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
"High isolation headphones" below means ~30 dB isolation from ambient noise. Heil does not make any in this range and most active noise reduction headphones (e.g. Bose) only have 10-15 dB. Here are some examples of what Barry meant: http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ex-29.html http://www.sennheiserusa.com/private_headphones_dj-headphones_004974 http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er6.aspx These are all available in the $75-100 range. 73, Bill Doug Turnbull wrote: > > Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would > the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? > 73 Doug EI2CN > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU > Sent: 07 February 2010 01:01 > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work > > > > Barry N1EU wrote: >> >> You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to >> turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying >> levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works >> fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling >> techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. >> > Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup > reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones > are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are > lightly > heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range > delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear > fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic > range > (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). > > 73, > Barry N1EU > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4528787.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU Sent: 07 February 2010 01:01 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Barry N1EU wrote: > > You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to > turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying > levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works > fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling > techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. > Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are lightly heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic range (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry N1EU wrote: > > You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to > turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying > levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works > fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling > techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. > Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are lightly heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic range (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Dave Hachadorian wrote: > > Tonight I used a pair of K3's in the Sprint practice. Several > times I had a pileup of four or five loud stations calling me. > With AGC turned on, they were all mushed together, and I couldn't > copy any of them. > > So I turned the AGC OFF. Now this introduces another problem - > the very low threshold of the AF Limiter. The AF limiter, even at > its highest setting of 030 introduces gross distortion on loud > signals. This is even worse than the mushy AGC. > You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. 73, Barry N1EU (http://n1eu.com) -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527366.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Yes. For non-portable use how about a "K3 Pro" or "K3 MK V++" that clips a few circuit traces and has a daughter board that uses two or three filter slots to house a stout IF amp, an H-mode second mixer and a PIN attenuator before the DSP? The one remaining filter would only have to be good enough to get rid of the image. Just thinking out loud. --- On Sat, 2/6/10, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy wrote: Hi Guy, The problem reported has the classic characteristics of in-passband IMD caused by a small dynamic range (IMDDR3) IF system, rather than being something caused by the AGC sub-system. Yes changing the AGC's loop characteristics will alter the effect, but the root cause is still non-linearity in the signal path. I suspect the second mixer. Trouble is that large IMDDR3 IF systems can consume a lot of power, and low power drain by the K3's receiver was a design goal I believe. 73, Geoff GM4ESD __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Dave indicates that the problem occurred when the pileup consisted of four or five loud stations. This leads me to wonder if the cause is the K3 hardware AGC threshold being too low, even after the mod introduced two years ago. That mod was supposed to raise the threshold from S9+5 dB to S9+25-30 dB. I got into this issue after repeatedly being botherd by thumping from loud CW stations above my passband during big contests. When I first noticed it, I was using the 5-pole 500 Hz filters and the DSP set to about 300 Hz. I'd hear the thumping from stations more than 150 Hz or even 250 Hz above my frequency. Testing revealed that I could hear thumping from loud CW signals as far as 700Hz away. The testing also showed that the filters were effective against a loud continuous carrier, but CW signals were slipping under the skirts. This suggested that the problem is caused by the hardware AGC being tripped by the loud signals. I switched to 8-pole 400 Hz filters, and that improved the situation considerably. My testing probably wasn't lab-quality, but it showed that the hardware AGC really kicks in much lower than S9+25-30dB. I think it's more like S9, or just above. Perhaps if two or more signals in Dave's pileup were that lour or louder, the hardware AGC kicked in and mushed them together? 73, Dick WC1M > -Original Message- > From: Dave Hachadorian [mailto:k...@arrl.net] > Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:45 PM > To: Elecraft Reflector > Subject: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work > > Tonight I used a pair of K3's in the Sprint practice. Several > times I had a pileup of four or five loud stations calling me. > With AGC turned on, they were all mushed together, and I couldn't > copy any of them. > > AGC settings: > dcy soft > hld 0.2 > pls nor > slp 000 > thr 008 > f 200 > s 020 > > I tried both fast and slow agc. No joy. > > So I turned the AGC OFF. Now this introduces another problem - > the very low threshold of the AF Limiter. The AF limiter, even at > its highest setting of 030 introduces gross distortion on loud > signals. This is even worse than the mushy AGC. > > So I transfer the headphones to the speaker output, so I can > reduce the AF gain setting in an attempt to get away from the > raucous AF limiter. This works for a while, until finally one > loud signal blows out the K3's audio amplifier. This is the > second time that has happened to me. I guess I'm a slow learner > on that issue. > > Something really needs to be done here. My suggestions would to > raise the agc threshold further, and increase the slope of the > agc line (that would mean a slp setting of less than zero). The > AF limiter threshold also needs to be raised, and the AF speaker > output needs better protection. > > Dave Hachadorian, K6LL > Yuma, AZ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Hi Guy, The problem reported has the classic characteristics of in-passband IMD caused by a small dynamic range (IMDDR3) IF system, rather than being something caused by the AGC sub-system. Yes changing the AGC's loop characteristics will alter the effect, but the root cause is still non-linearity in the signal path. I suspect the second mixer. Trouble is that large IMDDR3 IF systems can consume a lot of power, and low power drain by the K3's receiver was a design goal I believe. 73, Geoff GM4ESD On Saturday, February 06, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all > signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of > how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will > mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in > your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the > entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to > t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them > uncopyable. > > Make sure your ATT/PRE/RFGAIN use conforms to something like: > > 160m ATT plus RF gain at 2 oclock > 80m ATT plus RF gain at 3 oclock > 40m ATT plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 20m "" > 15m off plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 10m PRE plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 6m"" > > ...if you are listening on your transmit antenna. At least to start. > Make sure the ambient noise on the band is moderately low audio > listening on a clear frequency. > > Using the NB with those settings, including the ATT/PRE/RFGAIN > settings. Just today I was listening to an S4 Cuban underneath what > were S9/5 key clicks with the NB off. Offending station up 500 Hz at > 30 over 9 (really), and was using 250 filter running at WIDTH 350. > > Good luck in Sprint this weekend! > > 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
During the CQ 160 the K3 performed very well. Also in the (small) pile-ups. Only mushy experience I had the following situation: - Being on the DX cluster - Everybody clicks to you through some bandmap - Therefore everybody calls on exact the same freq No wonder it sounds mushy. (exception: K2's that are mostly more than a few Hz off can be heard :-) ) 73 Arie PA3A __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
"The Smiths" asserted: > Having the Slope set to 000 is like not having the AGC on at all. Not really. AGC SLP 000 still produces significant AGC action. See K8ZOA's paper. There is considerable white space between the Slope=0 curve and the AGC = OFF line. That's why Dave proposed enhancing the AGC SLP parameter with negative numbers. Ed - W0YK --- Ed Muns Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
K2AV posted: > Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that > setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the > same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. Actually AGC SLP 015 flattens the audio output. AGC SLP 000 is the minimum AGC action but it still reduces the audio output compared to AGC OFF. > If > they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of > the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set > AGC SLP to 15 for contests. This makes a wide range of RF signal levels produce the same audio output level, probably not ideal for contesting. > Make sure your ATT/PRE/RFGAIN use conforms to something like: > > 160m ATT plus RF gain at 2 oclock > 80m ATT plus RF gain at 3 oclock > 40m ATT plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 20m "" > 15m off plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 10m PRE plus RF gain fully clockwise. > 6m"" These ATT and PRE settings are generally OK, but band conditions and antenna/terrain gain can alter them. The RF Gain is seldom optimum at full scale. Ed - W0YK --- Ed Muns Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Not true. Read the Clifton labs link that I posted and you'll see that on the K3 AGC SLP = 000 actually gives a slope around 2 ... i.e., it takes 4 times the signal strength to sound twice as loud. The concern is not about having loud signals sound louder than weaker ones ... the concern is having the least nonlinearity in the signal chain to minimize in-band intermod products. Loud signals override weak signals so intermod isn't an issue there. The problem occurs when multiple signals are approximately the same strength and they lie at or near a nonlinear portion of the gain curve. Take a look at the severe knee in the Clifton Labs AGC plots and you'll see what I mean. The best way to avoid distortion in the presence of multiple signals for the majority of conditions (especially when receiving multiple weak ones) is to set the AGC threshold to maximum (008) and the slope to minimum (000), but that still leaves the opportunity for multiple STRONG signals to find the knee in the curve and generate distortion. It also, of course, leaves you less protected against really strong signals. And please don't try to sound so condescending ... I know exactly what the AGC SOFT setting is and I use it exclusively. Lastly, you should pay attention to whom is posting what. The original poster who complained about the AF LIM situation is Dave, K6LL. 73, Dave AB7E --Original Mail-- From: "The Smiths" To: "Elecraft Reflector" Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 06:04:58 + Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Having the Slope set to 000 is like not having the AGC on at all. If you're going to have a theshold, then why bother to keep the AGC from actually doing anything? At least put that Slope to 04 or something where it actually makes a difference. If your concern is having loud signals be louder than the low signals underneath it, and you want to compress the lower signals to sound as loud as the loud ones (or Vs Versa, have the loud ones squashed to the same level as the low signals), you have to actually set the slope compression to do something, not turn it off by setting it to 00. I agree with Guy completely. Also, there's a setting in the menu that will allow you to have a "soft" Agc which was designed JUST for this Contest/Pile up situation your describing. If you don't know what or where it is, please let us know and I will dig it up for you. As for the AGC off level limiter, and creating distortion... Yea, I've noticed that with the loud ones too. I belive that Wayne did something with that setting in the last 2 beta software releases... I don't know if you have access to it yet. M > From: xda...@cis-broadband.com > To: olin...@bellsouth.net; k...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 22:48:19 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work > > > Wrong ... you have that totally backwards. AGC SLP = 000 gives the LEAST > amount of AGC action you can get in the K3. AGC SLP = 015 is the setting that > makes all signals above the threshold sound the same, and potentially creates > mushy distortion for multiple signals depending on what setting you use for > AGC THR. Read the manual, or check out > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm if you > want to see it graphically. > > K6LL's AGC settings are exactly the same as those I use for contesting. > > 73, > Dave AB7E > > > --Original Mail-- > From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" > To: "Dave Hachadorian" , > "Elecraft Reflector" > Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:17:32 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work > > Hi Dave, > > Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all > signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of > how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will > mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in > your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the > entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to > t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them > uncopyable. > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. h
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Config: AGC DCY: Soft The Smiths wrote: > Having the Slope set to 000 is like not having the AGC on at all. > > If you're going to have a theshold, then why bother to keep the AGC from > actually doing anything? At least put that Slope to 04 or something where it > actually makes a difference. If your concern is having loud signals be > louder than the low signals underneath it, and you want to compress the lower > signals to sound as loud as the loud ones (or Vs Versa, have the loud ones > squashed to the same level as the low signals), you have to actually set the > slope compression to do something, not turn it off by setting it to 00. I > agree with Guy completely. > > > > Also, there's a setting in the menu that will allow you to have a "soft" Agc > which was designed JUST for this Contest/Pile up situation your describing. > If you don't know what or where it is, please let us know and I will dig it > up for you. > > > > As for the AGC off level limiter, and creating distortion... Yea, I've > noticed that with the loud ones too. I belive that Wayne did something with > that setting in the last 2 beta software releases... I don't know if you have > access to it yet. > > > > M > > > > > > >> From: xda...@cis-broadband.com >> To: olin...@bellsouth.net; k...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 22:48:19 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work >> >> >> Wrong ... you have that totally backwards. AGC SLP = 000 gives the LEAST >> amount of AGC action you can get in the K3. AGC SLP = 015 is the setting >> that makes all signals above the threshold sound the same, and potentially >> creates mushy distortion for multiple signals depending on what setting you >> use for AGC THR. Read the manual, or check out >> http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm if you >> want to see it graphically. >> >> K6LL's AGC settings are exactly the same as those I use for contesting. >> >> 73, >> Dave AB7E >> >> >> --Original Mail-- >> From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" >> To: "Dave Hachadorian" , >> "Elecraft Reflector" >> Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:17:32 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all >> signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of >> how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will >> mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in >> your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the >> entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to >> t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them >> uncopyable. >> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > > _ > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Having the Slope set to 000 is like not having the AGC on at all. If you're going to have a theshold, then why bother to keep the AGC from actually doing anything? At least put that Slope to 04 or something where it actually makes a difference. If your concern is having loud signals be louder than the low signals underneath it, and you want to compress the lower signals to sound as loud as the loud ones (or Vs Versa, have the loud ones squashed to the same level as the low signals), you have to actually set the slope compression to do something, not turn it off by setting it to 00. I agree with Guy completely. Also, there's a setting in the menu that will allow you to have a "soft" Agc which was designed JUST for this Contest/Pile up situation your describing. If you don't know what or where it is, please let us know and I will dig it up for you. As for the AGC off level limiter, and creating distortion... Yea, I've noticed that with the loud ones too. I belive that Wayne did something with that setting in the last 2 beta software releases... I don't know if you have access to it yet. M > From: xda...@cis-broadband.com > To: olin...@bellsouth.net; k...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 22:48:19 -0700 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work > > > Wrong ... you have that totally backwards. AGC SLP = 000 gives the LEAST > amount of AGC action you can get in the K3. AGC SLP = 015 is the setting that > makes all signals above the threshold sound the same, and potentially creates > mushy distortion for multiple signals depending on what setting you use for > AGC THR. Read the manual, or check out > http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm if you > want to see it graphically. > > K6LL's AGC settings are exactly the same as those I use for contesting. > > 73, > Dave AB7E > > > --Original Mail-- > From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" > To: "Dave Hachadorian" , > "Elecraft Reflector" > Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:17:32 -0500 > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work > > Hi Dave, > > Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all > signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of > how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will > mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in > your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the > entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to > t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them > uncopyable. > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Wrong ... you have that totally backwards. AGC SLP = 000 gives the LEAST amount of AGC action you can get in the K3. AGC SLP = 015 is the setting that makes all signals above the threshold sound the same, and potentially creates mushy distortion for multiple signals depending on what setting you use for AGC THR. Read the manual, or check out http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm if you want to see it graphically. K6LL's AGC settings are exactly the same as those I use for contesting. 73, Dave AB7E --Original Mail-- From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" To: "Dave Hachadorian" , "Elecraft Reflector" Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:17:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. Make sure your ATT/PRE/RFGAIN use conforms to something like: 160m ATT plus RF gain at 2 oclock 80m ATT plus RF gain at 3 oclock 40m ATT plus RF gain fully clockwise. 20m "" 15m off plus RF gain fully clockwise. 10m PRE plus RF gain fully clockwise. 6m"" ...if you are listening on your transmit antenna. At least to start. Make sure the ambient noise on the band is moderately low audio listening on a clear frequency. Using the NB with those settings, including the ATT/PRE/RFGAIN settings. Just today I was listening to an S4 Cuban underneath what were S9/5 key clicks with the NB off. Offending station up 500 Hz at 30 over 9 (really), and was using 250 filter running at WIDTH 350. Good luck in Sprint this weekend! 73, Guy. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote: > Tonight I used a pair of K3's in the Sprint practice. Several > times I had a pileup of four or five loud stations calling me. > With AGC turned on, they were all mushed together, and I couldn't > copy any of them. > > AGC settings: > dcy soft > hld 0.2 > pls nor > slp 000 > thr 008 > f 200 > s 020 > > I tried both fast and slow agc. No joy. > > So I turned the AGC OFF. Now this introduces another problem - > the very low threshold of the AF Limiter. The AF limiter, even at > its highest setting of 030 introduces gross distortion on loud > signals. This is even worse than the mushy AGC. > > So I transfer the headphones to the speaker output, so I can > reduce the AF gain setting in an attempt to get away from the > raucous AF limiter. This works for a while, until finally one > loud signal blows out the K3's audio amplifier. This is the > second time that has happened to me. I guess I'm a slow learner > on that issue. > > Something really needs to be done here. My suggestions would to > raise the agc threshold further, and increase the slope of the > agc line (that would mean a slp setting of less than zero). The > AF limiter threshold also needs to be raised, and the AF speaker > output needs better protection. > > Dave Hachadorian, K6LL > Yuma, AZ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Dave, I also lost an audio output chip last year when an unexpectedly LOUD SSB signal appeared during a roundtable QSO.appeared. Heard a part of a syllable, a pop and then silence. Was sent a replacement chip immediately. Your phones ... and their plug ... -are- stereo, aren't they? 73! Ken - K0PP k...@elecraftcovers.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
