Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Al Lorona]

Exactly right, Wes. The 10 dB rule-of-thumb is a *minimum* and it would be 
better if the measuring instrument were more than 10 dB better.

I'm not sure that the Flex radio originally mentioned meets that phase noise 
requirement. If its phase noise is on par with the K3's then it's not suitable 
for an accurate phase noise measurement. Depending on the numbers, you *might* 
be able to say "A is better than B," but you couldn't say how much better with 
any certainty.


Al  W6LX

___


> You probably also know that the phase noise of the analyzer should 

> be, as a rule of thumb, 10 dB better than the device you're measuring.  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Ian White]

Yesterday, K9YC wrote:
>
>Likewise, we must qualify the dynamic range of the measurement system
--
>when does it begin to contribute distortion due to its own
>non-linearity. This is what K2XT ran into in his tests.
>
That error did not affect my tests. I re-ran the same tests today and
reconfirmed that, across a 60dB range of input levels to the SDR-IQ, the
measured IMD3 levels change by less than 1dBc. 

Making further tests at 100W PEP, I measured IMD3 levels close to -30dBc
at 1.9MHz and -27-28dBc at 14.2MHz... but then deteriorating with
frequency towards -20dBc at 28.5MHz. 

However, I do confirm Jim's measurements that the IMD3 values at the 50W
level are at least 15-20dB better. When driving a PA at 30-50W, the K3
or K3S will almost never be the limiting factor in determining IMD.

Responding to Don's point: all of these IMD measurements were made at an
indicated supply voltage of 14.5V. Following discussions in this forum
some years ago, the supply voltage had been deliberately increased to
help improve the TX IMD performance. 

I must repeat the warning that these measurements were made with a
7-year-old KPA100 module in a new K3S so they may not be representative
of recent examples of either the K3 or an all-new K3S... but in other
respects the trends are clear.

 
73 from Ian GM3SEK

>-Original Message-
>From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
>Jim Brown
>Sent: 01 September 2015 19:28
>To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions
>
>On Tue,9/1/2015 10:44 AM, Ian White wrote:
>> Today, anyone can make 2-tone IMD measurements using a modern SDR
>and a
>> little care in setting up the input levels. The K3 itself provides
the
>> 2-tone test signal (CONFIG:2TONE On).
>
>Yes and no. Let's not forget that the response of any measurement is
the
>combined response of both the measurement system and the device under
>test (DUT).
>
>An important test of any spectrum measurement system is its frequency
>resolution, which can be tested by its response to a steady
unmodulated,
>unkeyed carrier. Like slide #8 in
>
>http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf
>
>Likewise, we must qualify the dynamic range of the measurement system
--
>when does it begin to contribute distortion due to its own
>non-linearity. This is what K2XT ran into in his tests.
>
>
>On Tue,9/1/2015 10:54 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Anyone who does such testing should also include in the report(s) the
>> power supply voltage as seen by the K3S alternate VFO B display.
>> Lower power supply voltages will have worse IMD than voltages that
are
>> higher.
>> Running the K3 or K3S with a power supply voltage above 14.3 volts
>> will improve the IMD substantially.
>
>Yes, the K3 and K3S are a bit cleaner with higher power supply voltage.
>K6XX showed this in a presentation to NCCC a few years ago. It's on my
>website.
>
>All of my testing has been done with power supply in the range of 12.3
-
>12.6V.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

For a decent Spectrum Analyzer, 9kHz to 1.5 GHz with tracking generator, 
check out the Rigol DSA 815-TG.  It is available for under $1500 and 
free shipping for Amazon Prime members.  Not only is it an aide to the 
station equipment but it is an excellent piece of test equipment.  As 
one reviewer stated, "it won't do what the Agilent Spectrum Analyzer 
costing some 10X as much will do but for the price, it is an excellent 
value".



73 Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163


On 9/1/2015 10:18 AM, Rick Stealey wrote:

I have been playing with a Flex 6300 here in my shack recently.  I consider it 
a great piece of test equipment for analyzing signals in the shack as well as 
on the air.  It does everything and more, as a spectrum analyzer, that my old 
HP141 analog setup did, except it doesn't have a tracking generator.
My measurements are not completed and I am still experimenting, but here is 
what I've done so far.  Phase noise, cw transmitted bandwidth, and 2 tone IMD 
tests.  My two rigs are a K3/100 and an FT100D (how good, and how bad can you 
get!)
Using a Flex 6300 as a spectrum analyzer, I fed a greatly attenuated signal 
into it, keeping the level just under 0 dbm, and assuming it is not generating 
imd of its own, but I haven't quantified that yet.
Phase noise tests - I was interested in seeing if it could display the RELATIVE 
benefit of the new synthesizer on my K3, looking at phase noise. Here are 
PRELIMINARY RELATIVE results, without numbers, in order of phase noise level at 
2 khz separation:An 8640B signal generator (known to have low phase noise)The 
K3 with original synthesizerThe FT100 After I install the new synthesizer I 
hope to be able to compare it to the original one.
I verified the FFT spectrum analyzer (Flex 6300) can give an instant view of 
transmitted bandwith of the cw signal sending fast dots. MUCH easier and better 
than the old analog HP spectrum analyzer which had to sweep extremely slowly 
across the band with a narrow filter.  With this setup you hold the key closed, 
and hit the control-print screen buttons on the keyboard and you have a 
beautiful picture !  Ain't technology great?
2-tone IMD measurements -The two tone test of the K3 showed something 
interesting, since it has both 10 watt and a 100 watt PAs installed.  Starting 
with low power and cranking up the power control, you notice, of course, that 
the ten watt PA has worse IMD just before the big PA kicks in, in the 11-12 
watt range.  Then it is very clean (approximately -40 db for third order) at 
its best, and ok in the 30 watt range (where it would be set to run my 8877 
amp) but then gets quite ugly above 65 watts.  And I mean in the -20 db range 
at 100 watts.  IF it was overloading the spectrum analyzer these tests would be 
invalid, so I need to verify that.  As I said these tests are preliminary.  I 
need a few more hours.

In my humble opinion, running at full power, 100 watts barefoot, my K3 would be 
transmitting an unacceptably sloppy signal.  Keeping it in the 65 watt range or 
under, or driving an amp would be better, provided your amp is clean.  My 8877 
amp is VERY clean.  I don't know about a solid state amp.  Some of the ugliest 
signals I have seen on the bands with the Flex panadapter in very limited 
observations have come from Expert 1500 watt amps (2 examples).  The very best 
was an Anan 100 with a Ten Tec 1500 watt tube amp.  The waterfall was a brick 
wall - NOTHING whatsoever outside the 3 khz bandwidth.
Rick  K2XT





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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,9/1/2015 10:44 AM, Ian White wrote:

Today, anyone can make 2-tone IMD measurements using a modern SDR and a
little care in setting up the input levels. The K3 itself provides the
2-tone test signal (CONFIG:2TONE On).


Yes and no. Let's not forget that the response of any measurement is the 
combined response of both the measurement system and the device under 
test (DUT).


An important test of any spectrum measurement system is its frequency 
resolution, which can be tested by its response to a steady unmodulated, 
unkeyed carrier. Like slide #8 in


http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf

Likewise, we must qualify the dynamic range of the measurement system -- 
when does it begin to contribute distortion due to its own 
non-linearity. This is what K2XT ran into in his tests.



On Tue,9/1/2015 10:54 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
Anyone who does such testing should also include in the report(s) the 
power supply voltage as seen by the K3S alternate VFO B display.
Lower power supply voltages will have worse IMD than voltages that are 
higher.
Running the K3 or K3S with a power supply voltage above 14.3 volts 
will improve the IMD substantially.


Yes, the K3 and K3S are a bit cleaner with higher power supply voltage. 
K6XX showed this in a presentation to NCCC a few years ago. It's on my 
website.


All of my testing has been done with power supply in the range of 12.3 - 
12.6V.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Ian White]

I found very much the same as Rick did, with a completely different test
setup (SDR-IQ).

The details vary somewhat with frequency and supply voltage but the
three main features reported by Rick remain the same:

>the ten watt PA has worse IMD just before the big PA kicks in, in the
>11-12 watt range.  

>Then it is very clean (approximately -40 db for third
>order) at its best, and ok in the 30 watt range (where it would be set
to run
>my 8877 amp)

> but then gets quite ugly above 65 watts.  And I mean in the -20 db
range at 100 watts.

My figures confirm those three main features (assuming we're both
reporting 3rd order IMD, "dB below either tone"). 

The other important feature is that the levels of higher-order IMD do
not fall quickly when tuning away from the main signal. If we had
reported "total occupied bandwidth at -60dBc", those results would not
look pretty at all! 

Those measurements were first made about 7 years ago on my original
low-serial K3, and today I made similar measurements on the new K3S. The
10/12W PA is different from the one in the K3 (two TO220 RF power
transistors in the K3S, where the K3 had three). However, the 100W PA is
the original module from my 7-year-old K3, so the IMD performance of
that module may not be representative of current production. 

Today, anyone can make 2-tone IMD measurements using a modern SDR and a
little care in setting up the input levels. The K3 itself provides the
2-tone test signal (CONFIG:2TONE On). 

If anyone can report comparable results for an all-new K3S/100, that
would be very interesting to see... but don't expect any radical changes
in those three main features reported by Rick.


73 from Ian GM3SEK


>-Original Message-
>From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
>Rick Stealey
>Sent: 01 September 2015 16:18
>To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions
>
>I have been playing with a Flex 6300 here in my shack recently.  I
consider it
>a great piece of test equipment for analyzing signals in the shack as
well as
>on the air.  It does everything and more, as a spectrum analyzer, that
my
>old HP141 analog setup did, except it doesn't have a tracking
generator.
>My measurements are not completed and I am still experimenting, but
>here is what I've done so far.  Phase noise, cw transmitted bandwidth,
and
>2 tone IMD tests.  My two rigs are a K3/100 and an FT100D (how good,
and
>how bad can you get!)
>Using a Flex 6300 as a spectrum analyzer, I fed a greatly attenuated
signal
>into it, keeping the level just under 0 dbm, and assuming it is not
>generating imd of its own, but I haven't quantified that yet.
>Phase noise tests - I was interested in seeing if it could display the
>RELATIVE benefit of the new synthesizer on my K3, looking at phase
noise.
>Here are PRELIMINARY RELATIVE results, without numbers, in order of
>phase noise level at 2 khz separation:An 8640B signal generator (known
to
>have low phase noise)The K3 with original synthesizerThe FT100 After I
>install the new synthesizer I hope to be able to compare it to the
original
>one.
>I verified the FFT spectrum analyzer (Flex 6300) can give an instant
view of
>transmitted bandwith of the cw signal sending fast dots. MUCH easier
and
>better than the old analog HP spectrum analyzer which had to sweep
>extremely slowly across the band with a narrow filter.  With this setup
you
>hold the key closed, and hit the control-print screen buttons on the
>keyboard and you have a beautiful picture !  Ain't technology great?
>2-tone IMD measurements -The two tone test of the K3 showed something
>interesting, since it has both 10 watt and a 100 watt PAs installed.
Starting
>with low power and cranking up the power control, you notice, of
course,
>that the ten watt PA has worse IMD just before the big PA kicks in, in
the
>11-12 watt range.  Then it is very clean (approximately -40 db for
third
>order) at its best, and ok in the 30 watt range (where it would be set
to run
>my 8877 amp) but then gets quite ugly above 65 watts.  And I mean in
the -
>20 db range at 100 watts.  IF it was overloading the spectrum analyzer
>these tests would be invalid, so I need to verify that.  As I said
these tests
>are preliminary.  I need a few more hours.
>
>In my humble opinion, running at full power, 100 watts barefoot, my K3
>would be transmitting an unacceptably sloppy signal.  Keeping it in the
65
>watt range or under, or driving an amp would be better, provided your
amp
>is clean.  My 8877 amp is VERY clean.  I don't know about a solid state
>amp.  Some of the ugliest signals I have seen on the bands with the
Flex
>panadapter in very limited observations have come from Expert 1500 watt
>amps (2 examples).  The very best was an Anan 100 with a Ten Tec 1500
>watt 

Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Wes (N7WS)]

As you no doubt know, to check linearity with a SA you drop in 10 dB of front 
end attenuation and look to see that everything on the screen drops 10 dB.  You 
probably also know that the phase noise of the analyzer should be, as a rule of 
thumb, 10 dB better than the device you're measuring.  The 6300 claims -140dBc 
at 10 KHz offset for its reference oscillator.  I believe that's more or less 
the same number Elecraft claims for the K3 synthesizer.



On 9/1/2015 8:18 AM, Rick Stealey wrote:

I have been playing with a Flex 6300 here in my shack recently.  I consider it 
a great piece of test equipment for analyzing signals in the shack as well as 
on the air.  It does everything and more, as a spectrum analyzer, that my old 
HP141 analog setup did, except it doesn't have a tracking generator.
My measurements are not completed and I am still experimenting, but here is 
what I've done so far.  Phase noise, cw transmitted bandwidth, and 2 tone IMD 
tests.  My two rigs are a K3/100 and an FT100D (how good, and how bad can you 
get!)
Using a Flex 6300 as a spectrum analyzer, I fed a greatly attenuated signal 
into it, keeping the level just under 0 dbm, and assuming it is not generating 
imd of its own, but I haven't quantified that yet.
Phase noise tests - I was interested in seeing if it could display the RELATIVE 
benefit of the new synthesizer on my K3, looking at phase noise. Here are 
PRELIMINARY RELATIVE results, without numbers, in order of phase noise level at 
2 khz separation:An 8640B signal generator (known to have low phase noise)The 
K3 with original synthesizerThe FT100 After I install the new synthesizer I 
hope to be able to compare it to the original one.
I verified the FFT spectrum analyzer (Flex 6300) can give an instant view of 
transmitted bandwith of the cw signal sending fast dots. MUCH easier and better 
than the old analog HP spectrum analyzer which had to sweep extremely slowly 
across the band with a narrow filter.  With this setup you hold the key closed, 
and hit the control-print screen buttons on the keyboard and you have a 
beautiful picture !  Ain't technology great?
2-tone IMD measurements -The two tone test of the K3 showed something 
interesting, since it has both 10 watt and a 100 watt PAs installed.  Starting 
with low power and cranking up the power control, you notice, of course, that 
the ten watt PA has worse IMD just before the big PA kicks in, in the 11-12 
watt range.  Then it is very clean (approximately -40 db for third order) at 
its best, and ok in the 30 watt range (where it would be set to run my 8877 
amp) but then gets quite ugly above 65 watts.  And I mean in the -20 db range 
at 100 watts.  IF it was overloading the spectrum analyzer these tests would be 
invalid, so I need to verify that.  As I said these tests are preliminary.  I 
need a few more hours.

In my humble opinion, running at full power, 100 watts barefoot, my K3 would be 
transmitting an unacceptably sloppy signal.  Keeping it in the 65 watt range or 
under, or driving an amp would be better, provided your amp is clean.  My 8877 
amp is VERY clean.  I don't know about a solid state amp.  Some of the ugliest 
signals I have seen on the bands with the Flex panadapter in very limited 
observations have come from Expert 1500 watt amps (2 examples).  The very best 
was an Anan 100 with a Ten Tec 1500 watt tube amp.  The waterfall was a brick 
wall - NOTHING whatsoever outside the 3 khz bandwidth.
Rick  K2XT





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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Wes (N7WS)]

I would buy one in a heartbeat, but the phase noise performance is abysmal.


On 9/1/2015 10:00 AM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
For a decent Spectrum Analyzer, 9kHz to 1.5 GHz with tracking generator, check 
out the Rigol DSA 815-TG.  It is available for under $1500 and free shipping 
for Amazon Prime members.  Not only is it an aide to the station equipment but 
it is an excellent piece of test equipment.  As one reviewer stated, "it won't 
do what the Agilent Spectrum Analyzer costing some 10X as much will do but for 
the price, it is an excellent value".



73 Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Rick Stealey]

I re-ran the IMD tests with another PS and put 30 db more attenuation in front 
of the spectrum analyzer and the K3 now looks good above 65 watts.  -30 db IP3 
at 100 watts, in fact.
Sorry.
But it's still cleanest down in the 30 watt range.
Rick  K2XT



> From: rstea...@hotmail.com
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 15:18:05 +
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions
> 
> I have been playing with a Flex 6300 here in my shack recently.  I consider 
> it a great piece of test equipment for analyzing signals in the shack as well 
> as on the air.  It does everything and more, as a spectrum analyzer, that my 
> old HP141 analog setup did, except it doesn't have a tracking generator.  
> My measurements are not completed and I am still experimenting, but here is 
> what I've done so far.  Phase noise, cw transmitted bandwidth, and 2 tone IMD 
> tests.  My two rigs are a K3/100 and an FT100D (how good, and how bad can you 
> get!)
> Using a Flex 6300 as a spectrum analyzer, I fed a greatly attenuated signal 
> into it, keeping the level just under 0 dbm, and assuming it is not 
> generating imd of its own, but I haven't quantified that yet.
> Phase noise tests - I was interested in seeing if it could display the 
> RELATIVE benefit of the new synthesizer on my K3, looking at phase noise. 
> Here are PRELIMINARY RELATIVE results, without numbers, in order of phase 
> noise level at 2 khz separation:An 8640B signal generator (known to have low 
> phase noise)The K3 with original synthesizerThe FT100 After I install the new 
> synthesizer I hope to be able to compare it to the original one.
> I verified the FFT spectrum analyzer (Flex 6300) can give an instant view of 
> transmitted bandwith of the cw signal sending fast dots. MUCH easier and 
> better than the old analog HP spectrum analyzer which had to sweep extremely 
> slowly across the band with a narrow filter.  With this setup you hold the 
> key closed, and hit the control-print screen buttons on the keyboard and you 
> have a beautiful picture !  Ain't technology great?
> 2-tone IMD measurements -The two tone test of the K3 showed something 
> interesting, since it has both 10 watt and a 100 watt PAs installed.  
> Starting with low power and cranking up the power control, you notice, of 
> course, that the ten watt PA has worse IMD just before the big PA kicks in, 
> in the 11-12 watt range.  Then it is very clean (approximately -40 db for 
> third order) at its best, and ok in the 30 watt range (where it would be set 
> to run my 8877 amp) but then gets quite ugly above 65 watts.  And I mean in 
> the -20 db range at 100 watts.  IF it was overloading the spectrum analyzer 
> these tests would be invalid, so I need to verify that.  As I said these 
> tests are preliminary.  I need a few more hours.
> 
> In my humble opinion, running at full power, 100 watts barefoot, my K3 would 
> be transmitting an unacceptably sloppy signal.  Keeping it in the 65 watt 
> range or under, or driving an amp would be better, provided your amp is 
> clean.  My 8877 amp is VERY clean.  I don't know about a solid state amp.  
> Some of the ugliest signals I have seen on the bands with the Flex panadapter 
> in very limited observations have come from Expert 1500 watt amps (2 
> examples).  The very best was an Anan 100 with a Ten Tec 1500 watt tube amp.  
> The waterfall was a brick wall - NOTHING whatsoever outside the 3 khz 
> bandwidth.
> Rick  K2XT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,9/1/2015 10:00 AM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
For a decent Spectrum Analyzer, 9kHz to 1.5 GHz with tracking 
generator, check out the Rigol DSA 815-TG. 


Hi Bob,

I've got one of these, in addition to a vintage HP 8590D. Specs are 
similar, the HP is a bit better, but not a lot. Both are blown away by 
some of the best of SDRs, including the K3 with P3/SVGA. While the 
P3/SVGA can display only 80 dB, the front end is good for about 100 dB, 
the display can be scaled up to view down to that level. Not as good as 
the Rigol or HP, but P3/SVGA frequency resolution can go down to 1 Hz 
(2048 point FFT for a 2 kHz span), two orders of magnitude better than 
the Rigol or HP. Rigol phase noise is specified as -80dBc/Hz at 10 kHz; 
the original K3 (with original synth board) was measured by ARRL as 
-140dBc/Hz.


Bottom line -- the Rigol and HP are fine for looking at harmonics and 
spurs, but useless for looking at occupied bandwidth. Take a look at the 
plots in this link, especially slide #8, K3 steady carrier at 25W. I 
can't do this with my Rigol or my HP!


http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Don Wilhelm]

Anyone who does such testing should also include in the report(s) the 
power supply voltage as seen by the K3S alternate VFO B display.
Lower power supply voltages will have worse IMD than voltages that are 
higher.
Running the K3 or K3S with a power supply voltage above 14.3 volts will 
improve the IMD substantially.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/1/2015 1:44 PM, Ian White wrote:

I found very much the same as Rick did, with a completely different test
setup (SDR-IQ).

The details vary somewhat with frequency and supply voltage but the
three main features reported by Rick remain the same:




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Rick Stealey]

> 
> I would buy one in a heartbeat, but the phase noise performance is abysmal.
> 

A general purpose SDR or possibly a 10 watt rig like Anan 10 would do better.   
  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Wes (N7WS)]

Not without decent, and appropriate to the task, software.

On 9/1/2015 2:23 PM, Rick Stealey wrote:

I would buy one in a heartbeat, but the phase noise performance is abysmal.


A general purpose SDR or possibly a 10 watt rig like Anan 10 would do better.   




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[ae4pb]

Could someone who fully understands Transmitter specs/imd..etc help me out a
bit off reflector (don't to bore folks).

The thread on eham is
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,104725.60.html  

I have no idea what the guy is talking about. As far as I can tell there's
no issue but I honestly don't know enough about the subject.

All help and education is appreciated.

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, Future K3S, 4 days and a wakeup.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Jerry Moore]

Thank you Jim,
  I'd expect if my signal was being overdriven that someone would tell me so
I could fix it *shrug*.  
Anyway... I think this has been covered pretty well. 
Thanks for all the responses. 
Jer

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Brown
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 11:14 PM
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

On Mon,8/31/2015 10:04 AM, Yngvi (TF3Y) wrote:
> Even though I'm personally most interested in CW I wonder if there is 
> any recent two tone SSB tests that's been published?

I've published some SSB bandwidth measurements using pink noise as
excitation. Because pink noise contains all frequencies, the spectra
resembles music and speech, and is dynamic, it excites IMD in a manner
comparable to speech.

http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf

http://k9yc.com/FTDX5000_Report.pdf

So far, I've measured only a few rigs using pink noise, but of those I've
measured, I've seen very little difference between them.

On the air is a very different story -- it's VERY common to see distortion
on SSB signals in the form of both upper and lower sidebands on audio peaks.
Because it is present in both sidebands, I strongly suspect it's caused by
power amps that are over-driven, or poorly tuned, or improperly biased. We
hear it as splatter (sometimes as wide as 10-20 kHz), and see it on the P3
and horizontal lines corresponding to audio peaks.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Yngvi (TF3Y)]

Thanks Jim.

This is COOL.

73, Yngvi TF3Y

On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On Mon,8/31/2015 10:04 AM, Yngvi (TF3Y) wrote:
>
>> Even though I'm personally most interested in CW I wonder if there is any
>> recent two tone SSB tests that's been published?
>>
>
> I've published some SSB bandwidth measurements using pink noise as
> excitation. Because pink noise contains all frequencies, the spectra
> resembles music and speech, and is dynamic, it excites IMD in a manner
> comparable to speech.
>
> http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf
>
> http://k9yc.com/FTDX5000_Report.pdf
>
> So far, I've measured only a few rigs using pink noise, but of those I've
> measured, I've seen very little difference between them.
>
> On the air is a very different story -- it's VERY common to see distortion
> on SSB signals in the form of both upper and lower sidebands on audio
> peaks. Because it is present in both sidebands, I strongly suspect it's
> caused by power amps that are over-driven, or poorly tuned, or improperly
> biased. We hear it as splatter (sometimes as wide as 10-20 kHz), and see it
> on the P3 and horizontal lines corresponding to audio peaks.
>
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Rick Stealey]

I have been playing with a Flex 6300 here in my shack recently.  I consider it 
a great piece of test equipment for analyzing signals in the shack as well as 
on the air.  It does everything and more, as a spectrum analyzer, that my old 
HP141 analog setup did, except it doesn't have a tracking generator.  
My measurements are not completed and I am still experimenting, but here is 
what I've done so far.  Phase noise, cw transmitted bandwidth, and 2 tone IMD 
tests.  My two rigs are a K3/100 and an FT100D (how good, and how bad can you 
get!)
Using a Flex 6300 as a spectrum analyzer, I fed a greatly attenuated signal 
into it, keeping the level just under 0 dbm, and assuming it is not generating 
imd of its own, but I haven't quantified that yet.
Phase noise tests - I was interested in seeing if it could display the RELATIVE 
benefit of the new synthesizer on my K3, looking at phase noise. Here are 
PRELIMINARY RELATIVE results, without numbers, in order of phase noise level at 
2 khz separation:An 8640B signal generator (known to have low phase noise)The 
K3 with original synthesizerThe FT100 After I install the new synthesizer I 
hope to be able to compare it to the original one.
I verified the FFT spectrum analyzer (Flex 6300) can give an instant view of 
transmitted bandwith of the cw signal sending fast dots. MUCH easier and better 
than the old analog HP spectrum analyzer which had to sweep extremely slowly 
across the band with a narrow filter.  With this setup you hold the key closed, 
and hit the control-print screen buttons on the keyboard and you have a 
beautiful picture !  Ain't technology great?
2-tone IMD measurements -The two tone test of the K3 showed something 
interesting, since it has both 10 watt and a 100 watt PAs installed.  Starting 
with low power and cranking up the power control, you notice, of course, that 
the ten watt PA has worse IMD just before the big PA kicks in, in the 11-12 
watt range.  Then it is very clean (approximately -40 db for third order) at 
its best, and ok in the 30 watt range (where it would be set to run my 8877 
amp) but then gets quite ugly above 65 watts.  And I mean in the -20 db range 
at 100 watts.  IF it was overloading the spectrum analyzer these tests would be 
invalid, so I need to verify that.  As I said these tests are preliminary.  I 
need a few more hours.

In my humble opinion, running at full power, 100 watts barefoot, my K3 would be 
transmitting an unacceptably sloppy signal.  Keeping it in the 65 watt range or 
under, or driving an amp would be better, provided your amp is clean.  My 8877 
amp is VERY clean.  I don't know about a solid state amp.  Some of the ugliest 
signals I have seen on the bands with the Flex panadapter in very limited 
observations have come from Expert 1500 watt amps (2 examples).  The very best 
was an Anan 100 with a Ten Tec 1500 watt tube amp.  The waterfall was a brick 
wall - NOTHING whatsoever outside the 3 khz bandwidth.
Rick  K2XT




  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Jerry Moore]

Rick,
   Check your compression and ALC settings. There's a specific
setup/configuration for proper use AND test. Based on my reading you can
cause a bad signal on ANY transmitter with the comp/alc settings
miss-adjusted. 

I'm sure someone here can better address the setup/configuration. 
jer

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Rick
Stealey
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2015 11:18 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

I have been playing with a Flex 6300 here in my shack recently.  I consider
it a great piece of test equipment for analyzing signals in the shack as
well as on the air.  It does everything and more, as a spectrum analyzer,
that my old HP141 analog setup did, except it doesn't have a tracking
generator.  
My measurements are not completed and I am still experimenting, but here is
what I've done so far.  Phase noise, cw transmitted bandwidth, and 2 tone
IMD tests.  My two rigs are a K3/100 and an FT100D (how good, and how bad
can you get!) Using a Flex 6300 as a spectrum analyzer, I fed a greatly
attenuated signal into it, keeping the level just under 0 dbm, and assuming
it is not generating imd of its own, but I haven't quantified that yet.
Phase noise tests - I was interested in seeing if it could display the
RELATIVE benefit of the new synthesizer on my K3, looking at phase noise.
Here are PRELIMINARY RELATIVE results, without numbers, in order of phase
noise level at 2 khz separation:An 8640B signal generator (known to have low
phase noise)The K3 with original synthesizerThe FT100 After I install the
new synthesizer I hope to be able to compare it to the original one.
I verified the FFT spectrum analyzer (Flex 6300) can give an instant view of
transmitted bandwith of the cw signal sending fast dots. MUCH easier and
better than the old analog HP spectrum analyzer which had to sweep extremely
slowly across the band with a narrow filter.  With this setup you hold the
key closed, and hit the control-print screen buttons on the keyboard and you
have a beautiful picture !  Ain't technology great?
2-tone IMD measurements -The two tone test of the K3 showed something
interesting, since it has both 10 watt and a 100 watt PAs installed.
Starting with low power and cranking up the power control, you notice, of
course, that the ten watt PA has worse IMD just before the big PA kicks in,
in the 11-12 watt range.  Then it is very clean (approximately -40 db for
third order) at its best, and ok in the 30 watt range (where it would be set
to run my 8877 amp) but then gets quite ugly above 65 watts.  And I mean in
the -20 db range at 100 watts.  IF it was overloading the spectrum analyzer
these tests would be invalid, so I need to verify that.  As I said these
tests are preliminary.  I need a few more hours.

In my humble opinion, running at full power, 100 watts barefoot, my K3 would
be transmitting an unacceptably sloppy signal.  Keeping it in the 65 watt
range or under, or driving an amp would be better, provided your amp is
clean.  My 8877 amp is VERY clean.  I don't know about a solid state amp.
Some of the ugliest signals I have seen on the bands with the Flex
panadapter in very limited observations have come from Expert 1500 watt amps
(2 examples).  The very best was an Anan 100 with a Ten Tec 1500 watt tube
amp.  The waterfall was a brick wall - NOTHING whatsoever outside the 3 khz
bandwidth.
Rick  K2XT




  
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Jim Brown]

On Mon,8/31/2015 10:04 AM, Yngvi (TF3Y) wrote:
Even though I'm personally most interested in CW I wonder if there is 
any recent two tone SSB tests that's been published?


I've published some SSB bandwidth measurements using pink noise as 
excitation. Because pink noise contains all frequencies, the spectra 
resembles music and speech, and is dynamic, it excites IMD in a manner 
comparable to speech.


http://k9yc.com/P3_Spectrum_Measurements.pdf

http://k9yc.com/FTDX5000_Report.pdf

So far, I've measured only a few rigs using pink noise, but of those 
I've measured, I've seen very little difference between them.


On the air is a very different story -- it's VERY common to see 
distortion on SSB signals in the form of both upper and lower sidebands 
on audio peaks. Because it is present in both sidebands, I strongly 
suspect it's caused by power amps that are over-driven, or poorly tuned, 
or improperly biased. We hear it as splatter (sometimes as wide as 10-20 
kHz), and see it on the P3 and horizontal lines corresponding to audio 
peaks.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Yngvi (TF3Y)]

Some time ago I was discussing this with one of the locals who maintained
that the K3 had terrible TX IMD.

I wonder if there are any newer published TX IMD test results?

In any case I guess the K3S has better TX IMD due to the new PA design.

73, Yngvi TF3Y

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:22 AM, Scott Manthe <scott.man...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Again, the Sherwood TX IMD test that is the basis of the eHam thread is
> almost 7 years old. That problem was fixed long ago, which is why so many
> multi-multi stations and DXpeditions have been using K3s (not K3S's) for
> all of these years. There hasn't really been any concern about the K3's TX
> IMD for quite sometime, except for the occasional eHam troll.
>
> 73,
> Scott N9AA
>
>
> On 8/30/15 11:09 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
>
>> In as much as most multi contest stations use K3 radios and will likely
>> move to K3S radios, there wouldn't seem to be any concerns in this regard.
>>
>> 73
>> Bob, K4TAX
>> K3S s/n 10,163
>>
>> On 8/30/2015 9:33 PM, Gary wrote:
>>
>>> Scott,
>>>
>>> I think the report might be a year old.
>>>
>>> I don't place much stock in eHam, most articles are Perception ' based
>>> and I prefer Rob's testing and reports.
>>>
>>> Wayne acknowledged the IMD issue way back when Rob pointed it out, it
>>> was fixed very quickly.
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: "Scott Manthe" <scott.man...@gmail.com>
>>> Sent: ‎31/‎08/‎2015 12:26 PM
>>> To: "ae...@carolinaheli.com" <ae...@carolinaheli.com>; "
>>> Elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <Elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions
>>>
>>> Did you happen to notice that the IMD test that KA4WJA is basing his
>>> thread on is from 2008? Do you think that Elecraft might have made some
>>> improvements to the K3 since then?
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Scott N9AA
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Jim Brown]

On Sun,8/30/2015 8:22 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
Again, the Sherwood TX IMD test that is the basis of the eHam thread 
is almost 7 years old. 


Study k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf  which is a comparison of ARRL LAb testing of 
popular transceivers, including the K3. Occupied bandwidth of a CW 
signal is an excellent test of IMD, because CW is 100% modulation of a 
carrier by a square wave, whose infinite harmonics excite IMD. The K3 is 
the cleanest of all rigs tested, and it isn't close.


IMD in a K3 is highest at its highest power setting, and is also highest 
with low DC power supply voltage. Unlike many other popular rigs, IMD in 
the K3 gets even better at reduced output power. Most of the better 
power amps require drive power in the range of 30-50 watts, and having a 
clean signal matters most when you're loud in the other guy's RX. :)


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Yngvi (TF3Y)]

Thanks Jim.

I forgot to mention that I was aware of your survey in terms of CW signal
purity.

Even though I'm personally most interested in CW I wonder if there is any
recent two tone SSB tests that's been published?

73, Yngvi TF3Y

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Jim Brown 
wrote:

> On Sun,8/30/2015 8:22 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>
>> Again, the Sherwood TX IMD test that is the basis of the eHam thread is
>> almost 7 years old.
>>
>
> Study k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf  which is a comparison of ARRL LAb testing of
> popular transceivers, including the K3. Occupied bandwidth of a CW signal
> is an excellent test of IMD, because CW is 100% modulation of a carrier by
> a square wave, whose infinite harmonics excite IMD. The K3 is the cleanest
> of all rigs tested, and it isn't close.
>
> IMD in a K3 is highest at its highest power setting, and is also highest
> with low DC power supply voltage. Unlike many other popular rigs, IMD in
> the K3 gets even better at reduced output power. Most of the better power
> amps require drive power in the range of 30-50 watts, and having a clean
> signal matters most when you're loud in the other guy's RX. :)
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Lu Romero]

Jim, et al:

"...having a clean signal matters most when you're loud in
the other guy's RX."

>From your mouth to God's ears!  

I was pleasantly surprised at the lack of "turn the knobs
all the way to the right" entrants in this past weekend's
SSB Sprint!  Yes, few mushy and bassy signals, but the large
majority of the signals I heard here were very clear, punchy
and easy to copy!

I don't note this in other phone contests recently.  Seems
that the majority of the players in this Sprint thing are
the more successful contest types, from the callsigns
represented.  

Could they know something that the general run of the mill
guys know about articulated and clean audio?  How can this
be evangelized better?  There is hope for SSB contests yet!

Lu-W4LT
K-Line
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Scott Manthe]

Again, the Sherwood TX IMD test that is the basis of the eHam thread is 
almost 7 years old. That problem was fixed long ago, which is why so 
many multi-multi stations and DXpeditions have been using K3s (not 
K3S's) for all of these years. There hasn't really been any concern 
about the K3's TX IMD for quite sometime, except for the occasional eHam 
troll.


73,
Scott N9AA


On 8/30/15 11:09 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
In as much as most multi contest stations use K3 radios and will 
likely move to K3S radios, there wouldn't seem to be any concerns in 
this regard.


73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163

On 8/30/2015 9:33 PM, Gary wrote:

Scott,

I think the report might be a year old.

I don't place much stock in eHam, most articles are Perception ' 
based and I prefer Rob's testing and reports.


Wayne acknowledged the IMD issue way back when Rob pointed it out, it 
was fixed very quickly.

Gary

-Original Message-
From: Scott Manthe scott.man...@gmail.com
Sent: ‎31/‎08/‎2015 12:26 PM
To: ae...@carolinaheli.com ae...@carolinaheli.com; 
Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

Did you happen to notice that the IMD test that KA4WJA is basing his
thread on is from 2008? Do you think that Elecraft might have made some
improvements to the K3 since then?

73,
Scott N9AA




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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Scott Manthe]

Did you happen to notice that the IMD test that KA4WJA is basing his 
thread on is from 2008? Do you think that Elecraft might have made some 
improvements to the K3 since then?


73,
Scott N9AA


On 8/30/15 10:14 PM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:

On eham.com someone was pointing out that the K3 has (perhaps had) IMD issues 
compared to some others. I’m not an expert but would like to know if this has 
been fixed? It seems there are less expensive radios with better IMD. I’m still 
pretty much sold on the K3S but would like to know more about this and if it’s 
an issue. What the implications are of the increased IMD, and what if anything 
I can do resolve it.

  


Thanks in advance.

Jerry Moore

AE4PB, Future K3S owner – 5 days and a wakeup.

  


http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,97093.0.html  is the thread.

  


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Gary]

Scott,

I think the report might be a year old.

I don't place much stock in eHam, most articles are Perception ' based and I 
prefer Rob's testing and reports.

Wayne acknowledged the IMD issue way back when Rob pointed it out, it was fixed 
very quickly.
Gary 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Manthe scott.man...@gmail.com
Sent: ‎31/‎08/‎2015 12:26 PM
To: ae...@carolinaheli.com ae...@carolinaheli.com; 
Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

Did you happen to notice that the IMD test that KA4WJA is basing his 
thread on is from 2008? Do you think that Elecraft might have made some 
improvements to the K3 since then?

73,
Scott N9AA


On 8/30/15 10:14 PM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:
 On eham.com someone was pointing out that the K3 has (perhaps had) IMD issues 
 compared to some others. I’m not an expert but would like to know if this has 
 been fixed? It seems there are less expensive radios with better IMD. I’m 
 still pretty much sold on the K3S but would like to know more about this and 
 if it’s an issue. What the implications are of the increased IMD, and what if 
 anything I can do resolve it.

   

 Thanks in advance.

 Jerry Moore

 AE4PB, Future K3S owner – 5 days and a wakeup.

   

 http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,97093.0.html  is the thread.

   

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

In as much as most multi contest stations use K3 radios and will likely 
move to K3S radios, there wouldn't seem to be any concerns in this regard.


73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10,163

On 8/30/2015 9:33 PM, Gary wrote:

Scott,

I think the report might be a year old.

I don't place much stock in eHam, most articles are Perception ' based and I 
prefer Rob's testing and reports.

Wayne acknowledged the IMD issue way back when Rob pointed it out, it was fixed 
very quickly.
Gary

-Original Message-
From: Scott Manthe scott.man...@gmail.com
Sent: ‎31/‎08/‎2015 12:26 PM
To: ae...@carolinaheli.com ae...@carolinaheli.com; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

Did you happen to notice that the IMD test that KA4WJA is basing his
thread on is from 2008? Do you think that Elecraft might have made some
improvements to the K3 since then?

73,
Scott N9AA


On 8/30/15 10:14 PM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:

On eham.com someone was pointing out that the K3 has (perhaps had) IMD issues 
compared to some others. I’m not an expert but would like to know if this has 
been fixed? It seems there are less expensive radios with better IMD. I’m still 
pretty much sold on the K3S but would like to know more about this and if it’s 
an issue. What the implications are of the increased IMD, and what if anything 
I can do resolve it.

   


Thanks in advance.

Jerry Moore

AE4PB, Future K3S owner – 5 days and a wakeup.

   


http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,97093.0.html  is the thread.

   


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Jerry Moore]

Thanks guys, I expected that was the case, but, didn't know what to say when 
the guy was saying those things about the k3. I really can't wait until 
Saturday gets here. I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the rig and 
getting my kit ordered. 

On August 30, 2015 10:33:07 PM EDT, Gary vk1zzg...@gmail.com wrote:
Scott,

I think the report might be a year old.

I don't place much stock in eHam, most articles are Perception ' based
and I prefer Rob's testing and reports.

Wayne acknowledged the IMD issue way back when Rob pointed it out, it
was fixed very quickly.
Gary 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Manthe scott.man...@gmail.com
Sent: ‎31/‎08/‎2015 12:26 PM
To: ae...@carolinaheli.com ae...@carolinaheli.com;
Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

Did you happen to notice that the IMD test that KA4WJA is basing his 
thread on is from 2008? Do you think that Elecraft might have made some

improvements to the K3 since then?

73,
Scott N9AA


On 8/30/15 10:14 PM, ae...@carolinaheli.com wrote:
 On eham.com someone was pointing out that the K3 has (perhaps had)
IMD issues compared to some others. I’m not an expert but would like to
know if this has been fixed? It seems there are less expensive radios
with better IMD. I’m still pretty much sold on the K3S but would like
to know more about this and if it’s an issue. What the implications are
of the increased IMD, and what if anything I can do resolve it.

   

 Thanks in advance.

 Jerry Moore

 AE4PB, Future K3S owner – 5 days and a wakeup.

   

 http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,97093.0.html  is
the thread.

   

 __
 Elecraft mailing list
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-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

[Gary]

Jerry

I understand the k3 in question was a very early version and Rob consulted with 
zelecraft and that issue was fixed long ago.



-Original Message-
From: ae...@carolinaheli.com ae...@carolinaheli.com
Sent: ‎31/‎08/‎2015 12:16 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S IMD Questions

On eham.com someone was pointing out that the K3 has (perhaps had) IMD issues 
compared to some others. I’m not an expert but would like to know if this has 
been fixed? It seems there are less expensive radios with better IMD. I’m still 
pretty much sold on the K3S but would like to know more about this and if it’s 
an issue. What the implications are of the increased IMD, and what if anything 
I can do resolve it. 

 

Thanks in advance. 

Jerry Moore

AE4PB, Future K3S owner – 5 days and a wakeup. 

 

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,97093.0.html  is the thread.

 

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