Re: Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
If any of those products you mention have 220/240V equivalents for use in Europe they will have a CE mark (according to ISO/IEC Guide 22 and EN45014). As such the Declaration Of Conformity should be available for public scrutiny. Some firms actually publish their DOCs on the web to engender confidence in their products. The DOC will list all appropriate specifications, emc, safety, etc to which the product must conform. Is there a US equivalent to this? David G3UNA From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/04/17 Tue PM 08:33:44 BST To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is possible that the push to legislate use of CF is an attempt by the CF industry to cement their use before LED lighting reaches this stage. Maybe, but I doubt it, because all the legislation I've heard of is simply aimed against conventional incandescents. LEDs will benefit too. IMHO, the push is driven by two concerns. First is the desire to do something about energy policy/greenhouse gases/pollution/conservation/etc., and reducing the enormous number of kWh used to power incandescents is a quick fix - or seems to be, anyway. Second is the need/desire to avoid building more power plants and transmission lines by reducing demand. New York City is doing things like replacing all its traffic lights with LEDs for demand reduction. -- While I'm all for energy efficiency, and use CFLs myself, I would rather see people educated to replace low-efficiency devices and systems with high-efficiency ones rather than by outlawing any particular technology. There are some applications where incandescents may be needed or preferred to other technologies. And CFLs are already cost-effective for most applications, while LEDs soon will be. 73 de Jim, N2EY (Elecraft products don't use incadescents at all, IIRC) AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
And yet, billions of computer monitors, CRT's, and LCD's around the world are programmed to never go into sleep mode and and reduce power. Drive past any large company at the end of the day and you will see fancy screen savers running, instead of just powering down the monitor. Motion sensitive lights and the fast amounts of money spent to light the night sky. Penny wise, and pound foolish. David Wilburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] K4DGW K2 #5982 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is possible that the push to legislate use of CF is an attempt by the CF industry to cement their use before LED lighting reaches this stage. Maybe, but I doubt it, because all the legislation I've heard of is simply aimed against conventional incandescents. LEDs will benefit too. IMHO, the push is driven by two concerns. First is the desire to do something about energy policy/greenhouse gases/pollution/conservation/etc., and reducing the enormous number of kWh used to power incandescents is a quick fix - or seems to be, anyway. Second is the need/desire to avoid building more power plants and transmission lines by reducing demand. New York City is doing things like replacing all its traffic lights with LEDs for demand reduction. -- While I'm all for energy efficiency, and use CFLs myself, I would rather see people educated to replace low-efficiency devices and systems with high-efficiency ones rather than by outlawing any particular technology. There are some applications where incandescents may be needed or preferred to other technologies. And CFLs are already cost-effective for most applications, while LEDs soon will be. 73 de Jim, N2EY (Elecraft products don't use incadescents at all, IIRC) AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:32:23 -0700, Fred Jensen wrote: Don't light bulbs fall under 47CFR15? You would think so, but when it comes to Part 15, Part 18, and all other stuff regulated by the Office of Engineering and Technology, it's been Let's Make a Deal for decades. Sadly, the FCC isn't what it used to be. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is possible that the push to legislate use of CF is an attempt by the CF industry to cement their use before LED lighting reaches this stage. Maybe, but I doubt it, because all the legislation I've heard of is simply aimed against conventional incandescents. LEDs will benefit too. IMHO, the push is driven by two concerns. First is the desire to do something about energy policy/greenhouse gases/pollution/conservation/etc., and reducing the enormous number of kWh used to power incandescents is a quick fix - or seems to be, anyway. Second is the need/desire to avoid building more power plants and transmission lines by reducing demand. New York City is doing things like replacing all its traffic lights with LEDs for demand reduction. -- While I'm all for energy efficiency, and use CFLs myself, I would rather see people educated to replace low-efficiency devices and systems with high-efficiency ones rather than by outlawing any particular technology. There are some applications where incandescents may be needed or preferred to other technologies. And CFLs are already cost-effective for most applications, while LEDs soon will be. 73 de Jim, N2EY (Elecraft products don't use incadescents at all, IIRC) AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
On Sun, 15 Apr 2007, Larry Makoski wrote: And we survived! No seat belts or kid's car seats back then, too And I never had to be told not to eat paint chips, either! 'Course not, your momma was prolly so unliberated that she wuz at home raisin' ya up...and did funny stuff like clean, so's ther wuzn't no chips///and if there were your dad most likely scraped and repainted. At 89 my Mom is always wondering how my brother and I could have survived without all the protections of the do-gooders. Thom www.baltimorehon.com/Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
Here is a link to a presentation by the CEO of Lumileds, maker of the Luxeon LEDs you see in those flashlights for sale at hamfests. I attended a presentation of this talk and got to ask some questions about warm-white lighting, but apparently the video feed of the talk is not available. LEDs for Solid State Lighting and Other Emerging Applications: Status, Trends, and Challenges M. George Craford LumiLeds Lighting http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r6/scv/eds/slides/20051213-George-Craford-Lumileds.pdf The beginning is good, but slides 14-28 are skippable; after that the technical content picks up again. In particular, slide 31 shows the target efficiencies and costs needed to compete with CF, and later slides show the technical challenges and possible avenues for remedying them. This talk is now a couple of years old, so one hopes advances have been made. I see 100 lm/w LEDs for sale now, but not in the warm white (3300K) range, only daylight (5000K) and up, and single colors. The conclusion of this talk is that general-purpose LED lighting will happen, but the timing is hard to predict. It is possible that the push to legislate use of CF is an attempt by the CF industry to cement their use before LED lighting reaches this stage. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: Living here in N.W. Oregon in a town of 20K people who owns its own electric company, it's unusual for us to see an electric bill that tops $25/month even though my XYL and I both work at home and we run an electric hot water heater and A/C in the summer in addition to all of our lights and appliances. It was half that before the great California power crunch of a few years ago saw a lot of our power sent south. I don't complain; it helps keep the lights on in Aptos! California [aka The Dimly Lit State] will forgive you this one time, Ron. However, be careful, our Governor can likely beat up your Governor. To the subject, I have a related question: When did light bulbs become 'Industrial, Scientific, and Medical' equipment [i.e. 47CFR18]? ISM equipment operates in ISM bands, one of which used to be 11 meters in the 0.5 - 30MHz range, and may still be for all I know. Another is occupied by your microwave oven ... and everyone else's too. They are confined to those bands, however ... I think. Don't light bulbs fall under 47CFR15? If they generate RF totally incidental to their operation, they would be incidental radiators [e.g. loose hardware on a power pole]. If they generate RF to facilitate their operation, but that operation does not involve radiation of the RF, they would be unintentional radiators [e.g. my computer, BPL]. If the generation and radiation of RF is essential to their operation, they are intentional radiators [e.g. my remote reading thermometer on 443.920]. Part 15 devices can legally radiate anywhere [as in 0.5 - 30 MHz], but only under some very strict constraints. Inquiring minds would like to know. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2007 CQP Oct 6-7 - www.cqp.org PS: Many years ago, my Elmer acquired a diathermy machine for parts. It comprised -- I'm not making this up -- 2-250TH's in a self-excited oscillator circuit. The frequency control was a variable capacitor, and the panel at the capacitor knob had a 27MHz frequency range marked on it, with a warning, Do not operate outside this range. It had AC on the plates. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED] (warning: wayOT)
In the late 1950's was a great traveling road show put on by General Electric that went to high schools showing off the wonders of science and engineering to encourage kids to follow a career in those fields. The whole school would spend an hour-long assembly in the auditorium watching the show. One of the demonstrations was to pour mercury into a hammer-shaped mold, pour liquid nitrogen over it, pick up the now-solid hammer with a heavily-gloved hand and drive some nails through some wood 2X4s with it, then lay it in a pan. A few minutes later the mercury could be poured back into the bottle. Ron AC7AC -Original Message- I remember in freshman physics lab at Caltech in 1957 one of my fellow students said he had figured out a weapon for the perfect crime. He made a mold and cast a mercury knife with the help of some liquid nitrogen. He held in in an asbestos glove (another dangerous substance, of course) and went around the lab making threatening gestures (until it started to melt). Bob, N7XY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
Ken Alexander wrote: And to think they used to let us roll little blobs of mercury around in the palms of our hands in school to show us what it looked like. And I distincly remember mixing chopped up asbestos with water to use as a sort of modeling medium, which we made into small objects...ashtrays mostly, for our parents! Geesh! 73, Ken Alexander, VE3HLS And we survived! No seat belts or kid's car seats back then, too And I never had to be told not to eat paint chips, either! -- 73 de Larry W2LJ QRP - When you care to use the very least! http://www.w2lj.qrpradio.com http://w2lj.blogspot.com/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
I have told the story many times of how we used to play with mercury in our hands! Now they will shut down a whole school for something like that and bring in a hazmat team. Guess ignorance is bliss! 73, Mike N4JX - Original Message - From: Larry Makoski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED] Ken Alexander wrote: And to think they used to let us roll little blobs of mercury around in the palms of our hands in school to show us what it looked like. And I distincly remember mixing chopped up asbestos with water to use as a sort of modeling medium, which we made into small objects...ashtrays mostly, for our parents! Geesh! 73, Ken Alexander, VE3HLS And we survived! No seat belts or kid's car seats back then, too And I never had to be told not to eat paint chips, either! -- 73 de Larry W2LJ QRP - When you care to use the very least! http://www.w2lj.qrpradio.com http://w2lj.blogspot.com/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
And you're sure it's not because no one makes a CF lamp small enough to fit inside a KX1?? 8-) 73, Ken Alexander, VE3HLS --- wayne burdick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One hopes! This is also why there's an LED reading lamp built into the KX1. Just thinking ahead :) Wayne ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
And you're sure it's not because no one makes a CF lamp small enough to fit inside a KX1?? 8-) I think everyone is missing the two essential points. 1) The KX1 is actually a transceiver built into a logbook night light, and 2) If Mercury is put into a CF lamp which then fails, it is no longer harmful to the environment. 73, Lyle KK7P (whose house is filled with CF lamps and also has a logbook night light with a built-in transceiver...) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
I've been looking at LED bulbs also. I hate changing lightbulbs for reasons I don't fully understand and the long life is a real attraction. The problem today is not so much the cost. The initial cost is high, but over the life of the bulb, they actually cost less than incandescent bulbs not even including the cost of power. The bigger problem is that they just don't put out much light. For $40 or $50 you can buy a bulb that will last 50,000 hours or more vs. 750 hours for an incandescent and it consumes 8 watts. The light output is about 200 lumens which is about the same as a 25 watt incandescent. That is, not enough for most stuff. They are getting better though. Someday soon maybe. Bob On 4/14/07, Lyle Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And you're sure it's not because no one makes a CF lamp small enough to fit inside a KX1?? 8-) I think everyone is missing the two essential points. 1) The KX1 is actually a transceiver built into a logbook night light, and 2) If Mercury is put into a CF lamp which then fails, it is no longer harmful to the environment. 73, Lyle KK7P (whose house is filled with CF lamps and also has a logbook night light with a built-in transceiver...) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
I think the rise in LED efficiency is actually what's behind the new political will to provide incentives for CF bulbsthey are about to be eclipsed. 73, Leigh/WA5tZNU? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
--- Lyle Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) The KX1 is actually a transceiver built into a logbook night light, and Good point! That said; I think my old Heathkit HW-101 was actually a nuclear reactor built inside a ham transceiver, considering the heat it gave off. 2) If Mercury is put into a CF lamp which then fails, it is no longer harmful to the environment. As long as the failure isn't the result of breakage of the glass envelope, and as long as the expired lamp doesn't end up in a landfill, where it will undoubtedly be broken. And to think they used to let us roll little blobs of mercury around in the palms of our hands in school to show us what it looked like. And I distincly remember mixing chopped up asbestos with water to use as a sort of modeling medium, which we made into small objects...ashtrays mostly, for our parents! Geesh! 73, Ken Alexander, VE3HLS ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED]
I've managed to buy a number of those fluorescent bulbs that make a huge amount of RF racket! Some are quiet, some aren't. Many years ago we switched to 40 watt incandescent bulbs in most places throughout our home, which we find plenty bright for 99% of our needs. I've put CF bulbs in places where it's very hard to change the bulb (top of stairwells, the high fixture on the porch, etc) but have avoided them elsewhere. Living here in N.W. Oregon in a town of 20K people who owns its own electric company, it's unusual for us to see an electric bill that tops $25/month even though my XYL and I both work at home and we run an electric hot water heater and A/C in the summer in addition to all of our lights and appliances. It was half that before the great California power crunch of a few years ago saw a lot of our power sent south. I don't complain; it helps keep the lights on in Aptos! Our electricity comes from spinning turbines at the Bonneville dam on the Columbia river a few miles northeast of us. Even with a fish ladder Bonneville's not terribly salmon-friendly (booo!) but no CO2 emissions (yea!). When I was a teenager I was messing about with a homebrew vacuum pump (wanted to make my own tubes!). I found a design that required a couple of pounds of mercury! Went to a local chemical lab and after explaining what I was doing they GAVE me a large crock full of mercury to use. It was marked contaminated but I never knew with what! The pump worked. Made lots of low pressure vessels to play around with on my homebrew 6-foot tall Tesla coil, but never made a valve with gain. Still, it was great fun, and I got an A in science class once again. But even back then (mid 1950's) I didn't handle the mercury with my bare hands. Already we had learned the lesson: Don't touch it, don't taste it, don't smell it. Ron AC7AC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Re: FCC rules part 18 [CF bulbs vs. LED] (warning: way OT)
I remember in freshman physics lab at Caltech in 1957 one of my fellow students said he had figured out a weapon for the perfect crime. He made a mold and cast a mercury knife with the help of some liquid nitrogen. He held in in an asbestos glove (another dangerous substance, of course) and went around the lab making threatening gestures (until it started to melt). Bob, N7XY ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
