Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-12 Thread george fritkin via Elecraft 
If the TS990 had metal knobs not plastic, it might make 75 pounds!
73deGeorge, W6GF 


 On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 8:09 PM, Jim Lowman 
 wrote:
   

 Well, I guess the Kenwood TS-990S that I just unpacked doesn't qualify, 
even by virtue of its 54-pound weight.  :-)
No tubes, less than 75 pounds, and no place to tie a rope.

73 de Jim - AD6CW

P.S.  I haven't defected from Elecraft.  The K3S that I ordered at the 
Huntsville Hamfest is waiting for a clear place so that I can assemble it.
Still have the K1, K2, K3/10 and KX3.

On 11/10/2015 8:04 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
> One thing which is seriously missing from the definition and that is a 
> boat anchor must have a place to tie a rope which then becomes an 
> anchor line.  With no place to tie a rope, the item  is merely 
> ballast.  There are some of the new radios that fall into both of 
> these categories and thus should be used accordingly.
>
> 73
> Bob, K4TAX
>
> On 11/10/2015 6:43 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Gary,
>>
>> By definition, a boat anchor has vacuum tubes that glow, and have to 
>> be more than 40 years old (my definition).
>> Ohhh, and they need to include a power transformer which gives them 
>> enough weight to allow them to sink to the bottom of the lake.
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-11 Thread Jim Lowman 
Well, I guess the Kenwood TS-990S that I just unpacked doesn't qualify, 
even by virtue of its 54-pound weight.  :-)

No tubes, less than 75 pounds, and no place to tie a rope.

73 de Jim - AD6CW

P.S.  I haven't defected from Elecraft.  The K3S that I ordered at the 
Huntsville Hamfest is waiting for a clear place so that I can assemble it.

Still have the K1, K2, K3/10 and KX3.

On 11/10/2015 8:04 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
One thing which is seriously missing from the definition and that is a 
boat anchor must have a place to tie a rope which then becomes an 
anchor line.  With no place to tie a rope, the item  is merely 
ballast.   There are some of the new radios that fall into both of 
these categories and thus should be used accordingly.


73
Bob, K4TAX

On 11/10/2015 6:43 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Gary,

By definition, a boat anchor has vacuum tubes that glow, and have to 
be more than 40 years old (my definition).
Ohhh, and they need to include a power transformer which gives them 
enough weight to allow them to sink to the bottom of the lake.




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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today (Don Wilhelm)

2015-11-11 Thread Brian D. Comer 
I think if I chucked the power supply for my TCS12 TX and RX, the K3 and the
KX3 in the lake they would all end up at the bottom maybe take different
times to get there but I can't see any of them floating!

73
Brian KF6C.

-Original Message
Ohhh, and they need to include a power transformer which gives them 
enough weight to allow them to sink to the bottom of the lake.

*

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Steve Ellington 
Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved 2DB
higher due to:

Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling receiver."

Congratulations K3S
Steve N4LQ

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:48 PM, Bill Breeden 
wrote:

>
> Rob Sherwood added the K3S to his Receiver Test Data page today.
>
> 73,
>
> Bill - NA5DX
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 


Of note - the K3S and K3 with new synthesizers were essentially +/-
1 dB of each other and swapping the advantage from test to test.
This is good news for owners of the original K3 - the synthesizer
upgrade will provide every bit of the performance "upgrade" in the
K3S.


Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved
2DB higher due to:

>

Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling
receiver."


Yes, the Flex-67000 should be dropped significantly because it can not
produce the both claimed dynamic range and noise floor (weak signal
sensitivity) at the same time.  Multiple -30 dBm (105 dB DR referenced
to -135 dBm MDS) signals will cause ADC overflow with noticeable
clicking and popping (distortion) with the preamplifier enabled.  Turn
off the preamplifier to prevent ADC overflow and the MDS degrades to
-118 dB (nearly 20 dB less sensitive) and completely unsatisfactory
above 20 MHz or so.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 11/10/2015 6:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:

Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved 2DB
higher due to:

Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling receiver."

Congratulations K3S
Steve N4LQ

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:48 PM, Bill Breeden 
wrote:



Rob Sherwood added the K3S to his Receiver Test Data page today.

73,

Bill - NA5DX

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Steve Ellington 
Fred
Well for the Flex 6000 series you keep one hand on the so called AGC-T
control. Since there is no hardware AGC you're doomed to constantly
juggling the input level.
I had one here and used the Flex Control knob to perform that function.
Using it this way brings back memories of Pre-AGC days and frequent
adjustment of the RF gain knob.
Steve N4LQ

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:

> Question from a mathematics major [whose parents wanted him to be a EE]:
>
> In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to the
> ADC to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping at the ADC?
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 11/10/2015 3:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:
>
>> Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved 2DB
>> higher due to:
>>
>> Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling receiver."
>>
>> Congratulations K3S
>> Steve N4LQ
>>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Barry LaZar 

Fred,
When you have a 24 bit A/D and not looking at the entire spectrum, 
this should not be as big a problem as you imply, if gain distribution 
is correct.  24 bits should yield a great enough dynamic range to cover 
greater than ~ 95% of time; that last ~5% covers your friend next door 
with a KW or that thunderstorm over head. 24 bits also allows for some 
amplification to overcome the down stream noise figure that may be 
greater than ambient.
On the other hand, the Flex uses a really high speed A/D, but it is 
only 16 bits, if memory serves. That architecture is far more sensitive 
to gain distribution. Those who have suggested that the Flex may have a 
problem with all the bits going to 1 in a stress environment may be very 
correct. IMHO: With the state of the A/D art as it is, I believe 
Elecraft has the better practical architecture. As soon as low noise, 
high speed A/Ds become available with greater than 16 bits, my opinion 
may change.


73,
Barry
K3NDM


-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 11/10/2015 7:32:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

Question from a mathematics major [whose parents wanted him to be a 
EE]:


In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to 
the ADC to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping at 
the ADC?


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 11/10/2015 3:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:
Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved 
2DB

higher due to:

Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling 
receiver."


Congratulations K3S
Steve N4LQ


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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Fred Jensen 
Not heavy enough, minimum specs for boatanchor is 75 lbs.  SX-28 and 
DX-100 were boatanchors.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org


On 11/10/2015 4:34 PM, Gary wrote:


Glad I upgraded my K3 (2007) vintage, guess now mine can be termed a
boat anchor?

73

Gary

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Barry LaZar 

Steve,
Not having the schematic of the Flex isn't as important as knowing 
they are using a 16 bit A/D. In a perfect world, the rule of thumb is 
6db/bit, 96 db may be accounted for. However, an A/D that can cover all 
the way to 2 meters has to be very fast > 296 msp, if you believe 
Nyquist. If you apply hardware AGC in any form, it is reflected across 
the entire spectrum. And to add further insult, high speed A/Ds have 
noise figures great enough to mask ambient noise at mid and above HF. 
That means you need to add a low noise amplifier ahead of the A/D with 
enough gain to overcome system noise, and that will start to bite into 
those 16 bits by a function of the gain of the amplifier. You can do 
some creative things like use tapered gain amplifiers that have a 
reverse taper so that max gain is at the high end of the spectrum; 
Typically signals and noise are greater at the lower end of HF even if 
SNR appear to be greater at the high end.


The use of a 24 bit A/D allows for using a simpler approach and yet 
maintain a high dynamic range.  It also disallows using A/Ds that can 
cover the entire spectrum as they don't yet exist.


Unlike math and physics, EEs are more artists than scientists. I 
suspect the discussions at Elecraft over the architectures would have 
been very interesting. There are advantages and disadvantages to direct 
sampling and to the hetrodyne SDR's. Which is better? It's a function of 
how you want to handle the requirement set which may impact price. Why 
do I call engineers artists? The sciences are absolute and engineers 
have to craft a solution that accounts for the compromises, and few 
engineers always agree on the very same solution. One may like red and 
another may like blue so the creation comes out as a work of art. The 
bottom line is that the chosen implementations of Elecraft radios are 
Gee Whiz and exceed what the casual user needs and appears to be the 
best for contesting. That last bit is my opinion and I'm sticking with 
it.


Just for the record, I use a KX3. It is lower on Sherwood's 
rankings, but I think it is the best overall radio out there. It 
satisfies a greater number of my requirements. And, that is how I 
colored my solution.  ;-)



73,
Barry
K3NDM


-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Ellington" <steven...@gmail.com>
To: k6...@foothill.net
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: 11/10/2015 8:51:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

Part of the problem here is that Flex won't release the schematic to 
the

6000 series so who knows?
I suspect that the AGC-T (Agc  threshold) control actually adjust the 
input

level to the ADCsomehow.
This control is manual and must be fiddled with per-band as conditions
change. Strong signals will sound distorted and you must manually
compensate often.
N4LQ

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 8:42 PM, Fred Jensen <k6...@foothill.net> 
wrote:


 OK.  Remembering that I'm the one who disappointed Mom and Dad when I 
got
 A's in Math and B's and C's in EE, and finally transferred to the 
Math Dept

 ...

 I didn't want to imply it was a problem, it was just a question.  
First
 off, I believe a direct-sampling SDR is one that essentially does 
nothing
 to the entire RF envelope being received except maybe bandpass limit 
it to
 the ham band of interest.  No guarantee that's correct, and if it 
isn't,

 you might as well delete this now.

 But if it is what direct-sample means, and since the RF envelope is 
both +

 and -, in an 8-bit ADC, 127 would be zero, 255 [all 1's] would be the
 maximum along with all 0's for the negative parts.  If the RF 
envelope is
 allowed to go above the value that digitizes to all 1's, it will 
still

 digitize to all 1's and it's excursions above all 1's are lost [i.e.
 clipped].  In my experience as a ham, this is rarely if ever a good 
thing.


 OTOH, you want as much dynamic range as possible, so you want the
 strongest input to the ADC be at the all-1's level so the parts of 
the
 envelope below that level will digitize to something other than zero 
[127
 in my 8-bit example].  Any signals below that level will digitize to 
127

 and you'll never hear them.

 If the gain of the RF stage(s), and I'm assuming there is at least 
one RF
 stage, is such that the maximum of the RF envelope is below the 
clipping
 point, then it seems to me that signals you might have heard won't be 
heard

 because they never got digitized.

 My question was [and is], do direct sampling receivers employ some 
sort of
 AGC to keep the max RF envelope at the clipping point?  If the answer 
is

 "yes", I have a second question in the wings waiting to be asked.

 Mom and Dad never recovered from their mathematician's defection from 
EE,

 despite having been a wireless addict since age 12.

 73,

 Fred K6DGW
 - Northern California Contest Club
 - CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct

Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Don Wilhelm 

Gary,

By definition, a boat anchor has vacuum tubes that glow, and have to be 
more than 40 years old (my definition).
Ohhh, and they need to include a power transformer which gives them 
enough weight to allow them to sink to the bottom of the lake.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/10/2015 7:34 PM, Gary wrote:

Glad I upgraded my K3 (2007) vintage, guess now mine can be termed a boat 
anchor?




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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Gary 
Dang!

Gee whizz I'm too young, I don't glow in the dark, I'm too skinny and I can 
swim.

Anything else wrong with me Don.

The nice young man in the white coat hasn't been to see me lately either, 
another problem maybe?

Chuckle

Gaey

-Original Message-
From: "Don Wilhelm" <w3...@embarqmail.com>
Sent: ‎11/‎11/‎2015 10:43 AM
To: "Gary" <vk1zzg...@gmail.com>; "Joe Subich, W4TV" <li...@subich.com>; 
"elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

Gary,

By definition, a boat anchor has vacuum tubes that glow, and have to be 
more than 40 years old (my definition).
Ohhh, and they need to include a power transformer which gives them 
enough weight to allow them to sink to the bottom of the lake.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/10/2015 7:34 PM, Gary wrote:
> Glad I upgraded my K3 (2007) vintage, guess now mine can be termed a boat 
> anchor?
>
>

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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Don Wilhelm 

Fred,

Isn't that what the RF Gain control or input attenuator is used for?
The ADC does not simply clip, when it overloads, the ADC output becomes 
total garbage.


In other words, I don't know of any reasonable answer.  To my mind, the 
ADC determines the maximum usable dynamic range.  If the strong signals 
overwhelm the ADC maximum signal levels, no signals can be successfully 
demodulated.


Mathematically, the overload situation might not be considered, but with 
practical devices (ADC), overload is quite possible.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/10/2015 7:32 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

Question from a mathematics major [whose parents wanted him to be a EE]:

In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to 
the ADC to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping at 
the ADC?




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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Steve Ellington 
Part of the problem here is that Flex won't release the schematic to the
6000 series so who knows?
I suspect that the AGC-T (Agc  threshold) control actually adjust the input
level to the ADCsomehow.
This control is manual and must be fiddled with per-band as conditions
change. Strong signals will sound distorted and you must manually
compensate often.
N4LQ

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 8:42 PM, Fred Jensen <k6...@foothill.net> wrote:

> OK.  Remembering that I'm the one who disappointed Mom and Dad when I got
> A's in Math and B's and C's in EE, and finally transferred to the Math Dept
> ...
>
> I didn't want to imply it was a problem, it was just a question.  First
> off, I believe a direct-sampling SDR is one that essentially does nothing
> to the entire RF envelope being received except maybe bandpass limit it to
> the ham band of interest.  No guarantee that's correct, and if it isn't,
> you might as well delete this now.
>
> But if it is what direct-sample means, and since the RF envelope is both +
> and -, in an 8-bit ADC, 127 would be zero, 255 [all 1's] would be the
> maximum along with all 0's for the negative parts.  If the RF envelope is
> allowed to go above the value that digitizes to all 1's, it will still
> digitize to all 1's and it's excursions above all 1's are lost [i.e.
> clipped].  In my experience as a ham, this is rarely if ever a good thing.
>
> OTOH, you want as much dynamic range as possible, so you want the
> strongest input to the ADC be at the all-1's level so the parts of the
> envelope below that level will digitize to something other than zero [127
> in my 8-bit example].  Any signals below that level will digitize to 127
> and you'll never hear them.
>
> If the gain of the RF stage(s), and I'm assuming there is at least one RF
> stage, is such that the maximum of the RF envelope is below the clipping
> point, then it seems to me that signals you might have heard won't be heard
> because they never got digitized.
>
> My question was [and is], do direct sampling receivers employ some sort of
> AGC to keep the max RF envelope at the clipping point?  If the answer is
> "yes", I have a second question in the wings waiting to be asked.
>
> Mom and Dad never recovered from their mathematician's defection from EE,
> despite having been a wireless addict since age 12.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
> - www.cqp.org
>
>
> On 11/10/2015 5:06 PM, Barry LaZar wrote:
>
>> Fred,
>>  When you have a 24 bit A/D and not looking at the entire spectrum,
>> this should not be as big a problem as you imply, if gain distribution
>> is correct.  24 bits should yield a great enough dynamic range to cover
>> greater than ~ 95% of time; that last ~5% covers your friend next door
>> with a KW or that thunderstorm over head. 24 bits also allows for some
>> amplification to overcome the down stream noise figure that may be
>> greater than ambient.
>>  On the other hand, the Flex uses a really high speed A/D, but it is
>> only 16 bits, if memory serves. That architecture is far more sensitive
>> to gain distribution. Those who have suggested that the Flex may have a
>> problem with all the bits going to 1 in a stress environment may be very
>> correct. IMHO: With the state of the A/D art as it is, I believe
>> Elecraft has the better practical architecture. As soon as low noise,
>> high speed A/Ds become available with greater than 16 bits, my opinion
>> may change.
>>
>> 73,
>> Barry
>> K3NDM
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Sent: 11/10/2015 7:32:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today
>>
>> Question from a mathematics major [whose parents wanted him to be a EE]:
>>>
>>> In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to
>>> the ADC to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping at
>>> the ADC?
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Fred K6DGW
>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>> - CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
>>> - www.cqp.org
>>>
>>> On 11/10/2015 3:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:
>>>
>>>> Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved
>>>> 2DB
>>>> higher due to:
>>>>
>>>> Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling
>>>> receiver."
>>>>
>>>> Congratulations K3S
>>>

Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread George Fritkin via Elecraft 
Yes, I saw that -145 truly outstanding. Now, if it could only creat some sun 
spots and open 10 meters.

73
de
George, W6GF

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 10, 2015, at 5:10 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> Bill Breeden  wrote:
> 
>> Rob Sherwood added the K3S to his Receiver Test Data page today.
> 
> 
> Yes. We're pleased to see some excellent test results, including 106 dB of 
> IMDDR3 at 2 kHz for both the 200- and 400-Hz filters. (The K3 came in at 104 
> dB for the 400-Hz filter. The 107-dB reading is within the usual +/- 1 dB 
> lab/tech repeatability figure.)
> 
> Also worthy of note: sensitivity of -145 dBm for the new Preamp 2 on 10 
> meters. This preamp is also used on 12 and 6 meters. 
> 
> I checked with Rob, and that blocking dynamic range number (>154 dB) is *not* 
> a typo. He said he saw less than 3 dB phase noise degradation at 100 kHz with 
> +19 dBm fed into the radio, and stopped at that point. I guess there's no 
> point in melting the signal combiner :)
> 
> (By the way, Rob's K3S BDR test level of +19 dBm is exactly 10 dB *higher* 
> than the preamp-OFF ADC clipping level of the 6700. With preamp ON, it would 
> clip at an estimated -11 dBm.)
> 
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Fred Jensen 

Question from a mathematics major [whose parents wanted him to be a EE]:

In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to the 
ADC to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping at the ADC?


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 11/10/2015 3:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:

Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved 2DB
higher due to:

Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling receiver."

Congratulations K3S
Steve N4LQ


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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Gary 
Joe,

Pity this distinct difference is not advertised widely for those folks not well 
versed in the importance of receiver specs.

But I have to add that lurking on this reflector is certainly a good way to 
learn what is important when evaluating a transceiver.

I place great emphasis on receiver specs and antenna selection. These to me are 
the most important.

You gotta here them to work them.

Glad I upgraded my K3 (2007) vintage, guess now mine can be termed a boat 
anchor?

73

Gary

-Original Message-
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <li...@subich.com>
Sent: ‎11/‎11/‎2015 10:25 AM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today


Of note - the K3S and K3 with new synthesizers were essentially +/-
1 dB of each other and swapping the advantage from test to test.
This is good news for owners of the original K3 - the synthesizer
upgrade will provide every bit of the performance "upgrade" in the
K3S.

> Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved
> 2DB higher due to:
 >
> Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling
> receiver."

Yes, the Flex-67000 should be dropped significantly because it can not
produce the both claimed dynamic range and noise floor (weak signal
sensitivity) at the same time.  Multiple -30 dBm (105 dB DR referenced
to -135 dBm MDS) signals will cause ADC overflow with noticeable
clicking and popping (distortion) with the preamplifier enabled.  Turn
off the preamplifier to prevent ADC overflow and the MDS degrades to
-118 dB (nearly 20 dB less sensitive) and completely unsatisfactory
above 20 MHz or so.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 11/10/2015 6:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:
> Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved 2DB
> higher due to:
>
> Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling receiver."
>
> Congratulations K3S
> Steve N4LQ
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:48 PM, Bill Breeden <breede...@cableone.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Rob Sherwood added the K3S to his Receiver Test Data page today.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Bill - NA5DX
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread George Fritkin via Elecraft 
Great results Guys.  But my K3S still won't slice bread!

73
de
George, W6GF

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 10, 2015, at 4:32 PM, Fred Jensen  wrote:
> 
> Question from a mathematics major [whose parents wanted him to be a EE]:
> 
> In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to the ADC 
> to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping at the ADC?
> 
> 73,
> 
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
> - www.cqp.org
> 
>> On 11/10/2015 3:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:
>> Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved 2DB
>> higher due to:
>> 
>> Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling receiver."
>> 
>> Congratulations K3S
>> Steve N4LQ
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Wayne Burdick 
Bill Breeden  wrote:

> Rob Sherwood added the K3S to his Receiver Test Data page today.


Yes. We're pleased to see some excellent test results, including 106 dB of 
IMDDR3 at 2 kHz for both the 200- and 400-Hz filters. (The K3 came in at 104 dB 
for the 400-Hz filter. The 107-dB reading is within the usual +/- 1 dB lab/tech 
repeatability figure.)

Also worthy of note: sensitivity of -145 dBm for the new Preamp 2 on 10 meters. 
This preamp is also used on 12 and 6 meters. 

I checked with Rob, and that blocking dynamic range number (>154 dB) is *not* a 
typo. He said he saw less than 3 dB phase noise degradation at 100 kHz with +19 
dBm fed into the radio, and stopped at that point. I guess there's no point in 
melting the signal combiner :)

(By the way, Rob's K3S BDR test level of +19 dBm is exactly 10 dB *higher* than 
the preamp-OFF ADC clipping level of the 6700. With preamp ON, it would clip at 
an estimated -11 dBm.)

73,
Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 



In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to
the ADC to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping
at theADC?


It's a matter of gain/attenuation before the ADC.  If, for example,
one looks at the Flex-6700 they have four steps of preamplifier gain:
0, 10, 20 and 30 dB.  The best MDS and dynamic range is with 30 dB of
gain as long as one keeps the *total input signal* below the ADC
crapping threshold.  If the total input signal exceeds the ADC crap
threshold one needs to reduce the front end gain to bring total signal
levels below the overload point but that drops the weak signals below
the noise floor (typically on a dB for dB basis as preamp gain is
reduced).

Digital processing gain (decimation) helps with the dynamic range to
some degree - e.g. dynamic range is better than the simple number of
bits - but it can't do a thing when the ADC overflows and generates
garbage data.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 11/10/2015 7:32 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

Question from a mathematics major [whose parents wanted him to be a EE]:

In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to the
ADC to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping at the ADC?

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 11/10/2015 3:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:

Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved 2DB
higher due to:

Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling receiver."

Congratulations K3S
Steve N4LQ


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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Fred Jensen 
OK.  Remembering that I'm the one who disappointed Mom and Dad when I 
got A's in Math and B's and C's in EE, and finally transferred to the 
Math Dept ...


I didn't want to imply it was a problem, it was just a question.  First 
off, I believe a direct-sampling SDR is one that essentially does 
nothing to the entire RF envelope being received except maybe bandpass 
limit it to the ham band of interest.  No guarantee that's correct, and 
if it isn't, you might as well delete this now.


But if it is what direct-sample means, and since the RF envelope is both 
+ and -, in an 8-bit ADC, 127 would be zero, 255 [all 1's] would be the 
maximum along with all 0's for the negative parts.  If the RF envelope 
is allowed to go above the value that digitizes to all 1's, it will 
still digitize to all 1's and it's excursions above all 1's are lost 
[i.e. clipped].  In my experience as a ham, this is rarely if ever a 
good thing.


OTOH, you want as much dynamic range as possible, so you want the 
strongest input to the ADC be at the all-1's level so the parts of the 
envelope below that level will digitize to something other than zero 
[127 in my 8-bit example].  Any signals below that level will digitize 
to 127 and you'll never hear them.


If the gain of the RF stage(s), and I'm assuming there is at least one 
RF stage, is such that the maximum of the RF envelope is below the 
clipping point, then it seems to me that signals you might have heard 
won't be heard because they never got digitized.


My question was [and is], do direct sampling receivers employ some sort 
of AGC to keep the max RF envelope at the clipping point?  If the answer 
is "yes", I have a second question in the wings waiting to be asked.


Mom and Dad never recovered from their mathematician's defection from 
EE, despite having been a wireless addict since age 12.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org


On 11/10/2015 5:06 PM, Barry LaZar wrote:

Fred,
 When you have a 24 bit A/D and not looking at the entire spectrum,
this should not be as big a problem as you imply, if gain distribution
is correct.  24 bits should yield a great enough dynamic range to cover
greater than ~ 95% of time; that last ~5% covers your friend next door
with a KW or that thunderstorm over head. 24 bits also allows for some
amplification to overcome the down stream noise figure that may be
greater than ambient.
 On the other hand, the Flex uses a really high speed A/D, but it is
only 16 bits, if memory serves. That architecture is far more sensitive
to gain distribution. Those who have suggested that the Flex may have a
problem with all the bits going to 1 in a stress environment may be very
correct. IMHO: With the state of the A/D art as it is, I believe
Elecraft has the better practical architecture. As soon as low noise,
high speed A/Ds become available with greater than 16 bits, my opinion
may change.

73,
Barry
K3NDM


-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Jensen" <k6...@foothill.net>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 11/10/2015 7:32:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today


Question from a mathematics major [whose parents wanted him to be a EE]:

In a direct-sampling receiver, how do you control the input level to
the ADC to achieve maximum available dynamic range without clipping at
the ADC?

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 11/10/2015 3:58 PM, Steve Ellington wrote:

Looks like the K3S should be above the Flex because the Flex achieved
2DB
higher due to:

Footnote Y --- "This is a testing anomaly of a direct-sampling
receiver."

Congratulations K3S
Steve N4LQ


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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Gary 
Bob,

Adding a rope might cause me to suspend myself unintentionally and that could 
mean an unexpected trip to the human body shop.

Best I just leave well enough alone.

Seriously though a couple of Yaesu boat anchor operators local to me chat on 
40m everyday, one day soon I hope they can agree on what frequency they wish to 
transmit on. I have just about passed the use by date on my RIT knob.

73

Gary 

-Original Message-
From: "Bob McGraw - K4TAX" <rmcg...@blomand.net>
Sent: ‎11/‎11/‎2015 2:05 PM
To: "elecraft@mailman.qth.net" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

One thing which is seriously missing from the definition and that is a 
boat anchor must have a place to tie a rope which then becomes an anchor 
line.  With no place to tie a rope, the item  is merely ballast.   There 
are some of the new radios that fall into both of these categories and 
thus should be used accordingly.

73
Bob, K4TAX

On 11/10/2015 6:43 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Gary,
>
> By definition, a boat anchor has vacuum tubes that glow, and have to 
> be more than 40 years old (my definition).
> Ohhh, and they need to include a power transformer which gives them 
> enough weight to allow them to sink to the bottom of the lake.


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Re: [Elecraft] Sherwood Receiver Test Data - K3S Added Today

2015-11-10 Thread Bob McGraw - K4TAX 
One thing which is seriously missing from the definition and that is a 
boat anchor must have a place to tie a rope which then becomes an anchor 
line.  With no place to tie a rope, the item  is merely ballast.   There 
are some of the new radios that fall into both of these categories and 
thus should be used accordingly.


73
Bob, K4TAX

On 11/10/2015 6:43 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Gary,

By definition, a boat anchor has vacuum tubes that glow, and have to 
be more than 40 years old (my definition).
Ohhh, and they need to include a power transformer which gives them 
enough weight to allow them to sink to the bottom of the lake.



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