Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports
Folks - we're getting pretty OT. Lets wind this thread down at this time in the interest of keeping the signal to noise level reasonable for other readers. 73, Eric /elecraft.com/ On 1/5/2016 4:07 PM, WB4JFI wrote: Original serial and parallel ports on the original IBM backplane were I/O port mapped, not memory mapped. There were discrepancies between port numbers between the true IBM I/O port numbers and "clones". Ports 3F8 and 2F8 for COM1 and 2, 3E8 and 2E8 for COM3 and 4. On a true original IBM, the first parallel port was 3BC, while most clones used 378 for the first parallel port. Note that these are input/output mapped, NOT memory mapped. I'm not sure that PCI and PCIe serial and parallel port devices are truly I/O mapped (probably not), or memory mapped, but in either case, they are not true serial or parallel hardware devices, but something that emulates them. PCIe is itself a high-speed serial interface, so there must be some interpretation. Of course, even the older ISA cards ended up using ASIC devices to emulate serial and parallel ports, but that was hardware based. 73, Terry, N4TLF Sent from tfox iPad On Jan 5, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add on. *Absolutely incorrect*. A USB to serial converter *of any kind* - other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100 baud RTTY. All of the multi-port RS-232 PCI and PCIe cards handle that task with no problem (although Windows will set 45.45 baud to 45 baud because the API is integer based). PCI and PCIe based serial and parallel port cards are true memory addressed ports like motherboard or (obsolete) ISA bus ports - not USB devices that suffer from latency and driver buffer issues. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add on. There no difference between running 1 or 4 USB to RS-232 converters. You can buy a 4 port FTDI converter that runs off a single USB port from Amazon that will run everything you could ever want. I run 80's vintage lab equipment off them and they don't know the difference. Also, don't get Windows 7 or 8. Windows 10 is the only choice for Windows. 7 and 8 are obsolete and support will get lighter and lighter and then vanish completely. Doug -- K0DXV On 1/5/2016 12:24 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote: I agree with N1MGO, I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing all of the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card that I __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to eric.swa...@elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports
Original serial and parallel ports on the original IBM backplane were I/O port mapped, not memory mapped. There were discrepancies between port numbers between the true IBM I/O port numbers and "clones". Ports 3F8 and 2F8 for COM1 and 2, 3E8 and 2E8 for COM3 and 4. On a true original IBM, the first parallel port was 3BC, while most clones used 378 for the first parallel port. Note that these are input/output mapped, NOT memory mapped. I'm not sure that PCI and PCIe serial and parallel port devices are truly I/O mapped (probably not), or memory mapped, but in either case, they are not true serial or parallel hardware devices, but something that emulates them. PCIe is itself a high-speed serial interface, so there must be some interpretation. Of course, even the older ISA cards ended up using ASIC devices to emulate serial and parallel ports, but that was hardware based. 73, Terry, N4TLF Sent from tfox iPad > On Jan 5, 2016, at 5:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > >> On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: >> A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus >> add on. > > *Absolutely incorrect*. A USB to serial converter *of any kind* - > other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100 > baud RTTY. All of the multi-port RS-232 PCI and PCIe cards handle > that task with no problem (although Windows will set 45.45 baud to > 45 baud because the API is integer based). > > PCI and PCIe based serial and parallel port cards are true memory > addressed ports like motherboard or (obsolete) ISA bus ports - not > USB devices that suffer from latency and driver buffer issues. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > >> On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: >> A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add >> on. There no difference between running 1 or 4 USB to RS-232 >> converters. You can buy a 4 port FTDI converter that runs off a single >> USB port from Amazon that will run everything you could ever want. I >> run 80's vintage lab equipment off them and they don't know the difference. >> >> Also, don't get Windows 7 or 8. Windows 10 is the only choice for >> Windows. 7 and 8 are obsolete and support will get lighter and lighter >> and then vanish completely. >> >> Doug -- K0DXV >> >>> On 1/5/2016 12:24 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote: >>> I agree with N1MGO, >>> >>> I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing >>> all of >>> the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card >>> that I __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports
I have to agree with Joe. If you must use a USB to serial converter for serious all purpose use, get an Edgeport product. There is a difference between a 'converter' and an 'adapter'. Most USB to serial devices available in the consumer market are 'adapters' - the Edgeport was directed at the commercial market where many different terminal devices need to be supported. It advertizes itself as a 'converter' rather than an adapter. I have a 4 port model and it has never failed to perform as expected, although I prefer to use real serial ports if possible. Whether the serial card is plugged into an ISA bus, a PCI bus, or whatever kind of PC bus architecture, that bus is just a means of getting addressing and data to the card. It is not an "add-on". USB to serial adapters may work fine for many applications, but some have trouble with the slower data rate of the K2 (4800 bps). Usually the FTDI adapters will work, but some have problems at lower data rates. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/5/2016 5:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add on. *Absolutely incorrect*. A USB to serial converter *of any kind* - other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100 baud RTTY. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports
I agree with Joe. A 2-port Edgeport provides two good RS-232 ports for SO2R operation with my very new T540 Thinkpad. It, and another Thinkpad bought around the same time, are the first I've ever owned that didn't have a hardware serial port either on the chassis or on a port replicator/docking station. My older laptops have PCMCIA slots, which accept excellent cards that provide 2 hardware RS-232 ports. They've been on a LOT of Field Days and California QSO Party county expeditions. In today's world, 8 GB and an i7 processor is pretty much minimum; it runs four RTTY decoders (two on each of two radios for SO2R) simultaneously without any problem. I've added solid state drives to two laptops, and it's really speeded them up nicely. One, a T61 Thinkpad, is 8 years old! A local ham who makes his living doing IT for small biz, do NOT recommend Win10, because it has a nasty habit of uninstalling software that it doesn't like. I'm sticking win Win7 until it dies. 73, Jim K9YC On Tue,1/5/2016 2:54 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add on. *Absolutely incorrect*. A USB to serial converter *of any kind* - other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100 baud RTTY. All of the multi-port RS-232 PCI and PCIe cards handle that task with no problem (although Windows will set 45.45 baud to 45 baud because the API is integer based). PCI and PCIe based serial and parallel port cards are true memory addressed ports like motherboard or (obsolete) ISA bus ports - not USB devices that suffer from latency and driver buffer issues. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports
On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add on. *Absolutely incorrect*. A USB to serial converter *of any kind* - other than the Edgeport products - can not do 45.45, 50, 75 or 100 baud RTTY. All of the multi-port RS-232 PCI and PCIe cards handle that task with no problem (although Windows will set 45.45 baud to 45 baud because the API is integer based). PCI and PCIe based serial and parallel port cards are true memory addressed ports like motherboard or (obsolete) ISA bus ports - not USB devices that suffer from latency and driver buffer issues. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 1/5/2016 5:32 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add on. There no difference between running 1 or 4 USB to RS-232 converters. You can buy a 4 port FTDI converter that runs off a single USB port from Amazon that will run everything you could ever want. I run 80's vintage lab equipment off them and they don't know the difference. Also, don't get Windows 7 or 8. Windows 10 is the only choice for Windows. 7 and 8 are obsolete and support will get lighter and lighter and then vanish completely. Doug -- K0DXV On 1/5/2016 12:24 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote: I agree with N1MGO, I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing all of the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card that I had in an old XP system (drivers work fine). Determining what is a quality USB/RS-232 serial adapter is not always clear. There are potential driver issues as well as suspect RF shielding. Some of these devices don't enable you to securely connect to both ends (no screw connections, so the connector is not securely seated). They are just another (additional) point of failure. Plus you are also now dealing with limitations of USB (re: polling). The FTDI chipset and drivers seem the most reliable and if you want to take apart your newly purchased converter, you can determine if the chipset is counterfeit. http://hackaday.com/2014/02/19/ft232rl-real-or-fake/ If you need only 1 RS-232 port I would go with a converter, but once you get above 2, then I think it is a good choice. 73, Cliff K3LL -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim Tucker Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:44 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? I haven't had used a "real" (old fashioned) serial port on any PC that controls radio equipment in probably 10 years. It's really not necessary if you purchase quality USB/Serial adapters (no fake chipsets) where needed. The only PC I have with a old-fashioned serial port is an ancient Toshiba laptop I keep around that runs DOS so I can program old Motorola radios. On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Gordon LaPoint wrote: You should consider adding real RS232 ports, at least 2 or 4 if you will ever run two radios, and even more if you want to control rotors, amps (KPA-500) or other accessories. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to c...@cfcorp.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k0...@aol.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports
A 4-port card is NOT a native RS-232 port. PCI is just another bus add on. There no difference between running 1 or 4 USB to RS-232 converters. You can buy a 4 port FTDI converter that runs off a single USB port from Amazon that will run everything you could ever want. I run 80's vintage lab equipment off them and they don't know the difference. Also, don't get Windows 7 or 8. Windows 10 is the only choice for Windows. 7 and 8 are obsolete and support will get lighter and lighter and then vanish completely. Doug -- K0DXV On 1/5/2016 12:24 PM, Cliff Frescura wrote: I agree with N1MGO, I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing all of the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card that I had in an old XP system (drivers work fine). Determining what is a quality USB/RS-232 serial adapter is not always clear. There are potential driver issues as well as suspect RF shielding. Some of these devices don't enable you to securely connect to both ends (no screw connections, so the connector is not securely seated). They are just another (additional) point of failure. Plus you are also now dealing with limitations of USB (re: polling). The FTDI chipset and drivers seem the most reliable and if you want to take apart your newly purchased converter, you can determine if the chipset is counterfeit. http://hackaday.com/2014/02/19/ft232rl-real-or-fake/ If you need only 1 RS-232 port I would go with a converter, but once you get above 2, then I think it is a good choice. 73, Cliff K3LL -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim Tucker Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:44 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? I haven't had used a "real" (old fashioned) serial port on any PC that controls radio equipment in probably 10 years. It's really not necessary if you purchase quality USB/Serial adapters (no fake chipsets) where needed. The only PC I have with a old-fashioned serial port is an ancient Toshiba laptop I keep around that runs DOS so I can program old Motorola radios. On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Gordon LaPoint wrote: You should consider adding real RS232 ports, at least 2 or 4 if you will ever run two radios, and even more if you want to control rotors, amps (KPA-500) or other accessories. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to c...@cfcorp.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to k0...@aol.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? Real RS-232 ports
I agree with N1MGO, I've come full circle on this one and am in the process of removing all of the USB/RS-232 converters in my setup and reinstalling a 4 port card that I had in an old XP system (drivers work fine). Determining what is a quality USB/RS-232 serial adapter is not always clear. There are potential driver issues as well as suspect RF shielding. Some of these devices don't enable you to securely connect to both ends (no screw connections, so the connector is not securely seated). They are just another (additional) point of failure. Plus you are also now dealing with limitations of USB (re: polling). The FTDI chipset and drivers seem the most reliable and if you want to take apart your newly purchased converter, you can determine if the chipset is counterfeit. http://hackaday.com/2014/02/19/ft232rl-real-or-fake/ If you need only 1 RS-232 port I would go with a converter, but once you get above 2, then I think it is a good choice. 73, Cliff K3LL -Original Message- From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim Tucker Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:44 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] suggested PC??? I haven't had used a "real" (old fashioned) serial port on any PC that controls radio equipment in probably 10 years. It's really not necessary if you purchase quality USB/Serial adapters (no fake chipsets) where needed. The only PC I have with a old-fashioned serial port is an ancient Toshiba laptop I keep around that runs DOS so I can program old Motorola radios. On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Gordon LaPoint wrote: > You should consider adding real RS232 ports, at least 2 or 4 if you > will ever run two radios, and even more if you want to control rotors, > amps > (KPA-500) or other accessories. > >> >> > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to c...@cfcorp.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
