Re: State button in Customize is not a button
When I suggest making menus, buttons, and links have 3 different appearances, you reply Tough luck. Why the resistance? Figuring out what to do would be too big a discussion, to do now. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: State button in Customize is not a button
In our case, State looks like a button, so it won't be mistaken for simple text. But it can be mistaken for an action button, as opposed to a menu. So what? Someone will click it, and see a menu. If he doesn't realize at that point that it's a menu, he's not smart enough to use Emacs. Or are you concerned someone will be afraid to click it because he's worried about what it might do? The tooltip should help. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
RE: State button in Customize is not a button
In our case, State looks like a button, so it won't be mistaken for simple text. But it can be mistaken for an action button, as opposed to a menu. So what? Someone will click it, and see a menu. If he doesn't realize at that point that it's a menu, he's not smart enough to use Emacs. People shouldn't need to try things just to have an idea what they are. That's a pretty simple UI principle. If it doesn't make sense to you, let it drop. A button called something as vague as State is asking to be improved - especially in a context designed to be accessible to newbies. They will need to find and use this menu to put edit changes into effect and save those changes, so we had better draw their attention to this menu for those purposes. Or are you concerned someone will be afraid to click it because he's worried about what it might do? Yes, that's one possible consequence of not having things show clearly what they are. Someone will click it and find out; someone else won't click it and won't find out. And neither is necessarily smart enough to use Emacs or too stupid to use Emacs. This is not about dumbing things down; it's about making things clear (truth in advertising vs hiding important functionality behind misleading appearances and names) - to save people time and effort. Why should users spend time wondering, guessing what something might be or do, trying different buttons to see what they are for? I've nothing against curiosity and exploring to discover things, but it shouldn't be an imposed obstacle - when someone wants to get a job done, he doesn't necessarily want to play Adventure through the Labyrinth to find the holy grail. Some people think that we don't even need to provide doc, that the source code is clear enough for anyone who is smart enough to use Emacs. I think such an attitude is narrow-sighted. I know and applaud your attitude wrt the doc. I see the UI as le meme combat. The tooltip should help. Sure it helps. So would using a different button style for such menus, and a different label from State. Names like state, treat, and do (and even value and process in some contexts) don't mean much, because of their generality. We can do better, and the cost of doing better is not great. When I suggest making menus, buttons, and links have 3 different appearances, you reply Tough luck. Why the resistance? What do we lose by doing that? Sure, it's something minor, and it doesn't need to be done before the release. But why not signal an intention to do it? ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
RE: State button in Customize is not a button
I've seen those small triangles. They are a pain in the neck to put the mouse on. We certainly won't do that. FWIW, the triangle I'm talking about is part of the pull-down menu label. There is no need to put the mouse on the triangle itself - just as now, the mouse works anywhere on the label (State) or the triangle - that is, anywhere on the button. I would not mind adding a V to the text in that button. That's all I meant (V or triangle or some other indication). Another (alternative) thing that would help recognition would be to change the label to specifically say that it is a menu - for example, State Menu or Choose Action (or choose whatever), instead of just State. The State button is not really a pulldown list, so the drawback I mentioned doesn't really apply to it. The problem with real pulldown lists is that the current choice appears as the current label of the list. Instead of seeing a label that indicates that there is a menu there, you see only the name of the current choice (or state), plus, perhaps, a triangle - without the triangle, the menu just looks like a field name (label). In our case, State looks like a button, so it won't be mistaken for simple text. But it can be mistaken for an action button, as opposed to a menu. Calling it State Menu or Choose Action would mitigate that problem, as would adding an arrow (V). However, that is not what I have seen in browsers. I just looked at one free browser. It has a big leftward arrow, with a triangle next to it. Those are two different mouse-selection areas with different meanings. That is not what I meant, in any case - I'm not familiar with that. I too hate tiny mouseable areas. BTW, I don't see a good solution for this, but I notice a similar problem (tiny mouse area) when I try to enlarge a frame downward by dragging with the mouse. There are so many mouse-sensitive areas in the mode-line now that I often end up hitting one, instead of dragging the frame border. You can't have everything, I guess. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: State button in Customize is not a button
Drew Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The State button in Customize is not a button but a pulldown list (menu). Your observation applies to the Value Menu as well. Sounds like changing the text of the State menu from State to State Menu would be a good choice as long as the widget still looks like a button. In general, however, pulldown menus are not a good UI idea. Disagree in general. They are fine in menu bars and context menus. Because it is too easy to not notice that they are menus (i.e represent choices). I agree. The menus should not look like buttons. I am at a loss of how to make a standalone menu though as menus are usually associated with menu bars. And these are menus, not comboboxes, since they perform actions, not just represent choices. Now that I think of it, the Value Menu is not a menu, but a combobox. Oy, we probably should postpone creating different widgets for menus and comboboxes until after the release. It is a bad idea for the closed state of a menu to represent one of the possible menu choices. True, but you'd use a combobox widget in this case and it doesn't apply to the State menu anyway. -- Bill Wohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. Vote Libertarian! If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: State button in Customize is not a button
The State button in Customize is not a button but a pulldown list (menu). That is, it opens a menu; it does not effect an action. It should not look like the other buttons. A pulldown menu label (button) often has a small triangle next to the text, to indicate that it is a pulldown menu. I've seen those small triangles. They are a pain in the neck to put the mouse on. We certainly won't do that. I do not want to consider changing this now. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
RE: State button in Customize is not a button
The State button in Customize is not a button but a pulldown list (menu). That is, it opens a menu; it does not effect an action. It should not look like the other buttons. A pulldown menu label (button) often has a small triangle next to the text, to indicate that it is a pulldown menu. I've seen those small triangles. They are a pain in the neck to put the mouse on. We certainly won't do that. FWIW, the triangle I'm talking about is part of the pull-down menu label. There is no need to put the mouse on the triangle itself - just as now, the mouse works anywhere on the label (State) or the triangle - that is, anywhere on the button. The triangle (or maybe a V) is just an indication that the label hides a menu. At any rate, as I said, pull-down lists are a bad idea altogether, whether or not they have some extra annotation (e.g. triangle) to indicate that they are menus. I do not want to consider changing this now. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
