Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Richard Stallman schrieb: It's our official policy that GNU/Linux support has higher priority than Windows. There are two reasons for this: 1. GNU Emacs is part of the GNU system, and working well with the rest of the GNU system is the highest priority. 2. Windows is non-free software, and therefore gets low priority. Our goal is to replace non-free software such as Windows, not to enhance it. However, there are some people that want Emacs to work on Windows, and they support that port. Thank you for clearing this up! Best regards, Stephan Hennig ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Lennart Borgman (gmail) schrieb: Kim F. Storm wrote: Can you -- and other W32 users -- please try out the latest CVS and tell me ASAP if there are still _severe_ problems with it. I have uploaded a new unpatched version Emacs+EmacsW32 for those who want to test: http://ourcomments.org/cgi-bin/emacsw32-dl-latest.pl I've done some tests with that version now (This is GNU Emacs 22.0.93.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2007-02-19 on LENNART-69DE564). Scrolling has indeed improved. The erratic up and down movement of the buffer while dragging the scrollbar in _one_ direction seems to has gone away. Still there are some problems: (i) You cannot scroll to the end of a buffer any more. There simply is no end, i.e., the longer you drag the scrollbar to the bottom of the frame the smaller the scrollbar gets and buffer contents moves out of the buffer ending up with an empty buffer. (ii) If you click on the scrollbar (without dragging) old buggy behaviour was that the scrollbar moves up after pressing left mouse button. New behaviour is to move _down_ after pressing the left mouse button. This bug seems to depend on which part of a buffer is visible and on frame size: * Start Emacs with emacs -Q. * In a ca. 40 line high frame visit etc\DEBUG. * Move the scrollbar past 50% of the buffer. * Click the scrollbar with mouse-1. The scrollbar moves down. * In a ca. 90 line heigh frame the effect can only be observed after moving the scrollbar past 75% of the buffer. (iii) Visiting etc\DEBUG, I can't manage to scroll the buffer down with the scrollbar so that the top most line becomes an empty line. Instead when the second line of a buffer is an empty line and you're dragging the scrollbar down slowly, the third line suddenly gets the top most line. That is, you can't scroll line-wise through a buffer. The problem with this is less that the top most line can't become an empty line, but that the whole buffer scrolls at different speeds. Sometimes it's line-wise and sometimes it's two lines at once. This is confusing. Best regards, Stephan Hennig ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Stephan Hennig wrote: I've done some tests with that version now (This is GNU Emacs 22.0.93.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2007-02-19 on LENNART-69DE564). Scrolling has indeed improved. The erratic up and down movement of the buffer while dragging the scrollbar in _one_ direction seems to has gone away. Still there are some problems: It seems that the latest change reverted the previous buggy behaviour to earlier buggy behaviour, where the scrollbar handle resizes as you scroll. If this behaviour is generally preferred to the previous behaviour, then we should leave it like this until after the release. Experience has shown that it is going to take major changes in the way we perform our scroll-bar related calculations to make an improvement in this area without breaking it in some other way. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Jason Rumney [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Stephan Hennig wrote: I've done some tests with that version now (This is GNU Emacs 22.0.93.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2007-02-19 on LENNART-69DE564). Scrolling has indeed improved. The erratic up and down movement of the buffer while dragging the scrollbar in _one_ direction seems to has gone away. Good! That was the main problem I was trying to solve. Still there are some problems: It seems that the latest change reverted the previous buggy behaviour to earlier buggy behaviour, where the scrollbar handle resizes as you scroll. Only when the handle is near the end of the buffer -- to be able to actually reach the end of the buffer. As Stephan noted, it may scroll too far (making the bottom line scroll out of view) - but that's actually the normal Emacs behaviour on X! If this behaviour is generally preferred to the previous behaviour, then we should leave it like this until after the release. Experience has shown that it is going to take major changes in the way we perform our scroll-bar related calculations to make an improvement in this area without breaking it in some other way. Indeed - this is not the time to really fix it. -- Kim F. Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cua.dk ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
And some of us to that with the hope that it will be easier to move to GNU/Linux if we do so. It is not clear whether free apps on Windows tend to encourage migration or tend to make it easy not to migrate. People have said to me, Now that Emacs runs on Windows, and my boss knows it, I can no longer tell him that 'I have to run GNU/Linux'. ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Stephan Hennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: FWIW, the items in my list were given in reverse priority order, accidentally. That is, I think item (iii) is the most annoying bug since it instantly gives you a non-smooth scrolling experience. I have no idea if that item were easy to fix at the current state. That is the hardest problem to fix ... Emacs scrolling counts in characters, not lines. So scrolling an empty line means scrolling 1 character, which is typically less than the minimum scroll unit. -- Kim F. Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cua.dk ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
(i) You cannot scroll to the end of a buffer any more. There simply is no end, i.e., the longer you drag the scrollbar to the bottom of the frame the smaller the scrollbar gets and buffer contents moves out of the buffer ending up with an empty buffer. This is not a bug. You may find it surprising, but it's the way thumb-scrolling was meant to behave under Emacs. Stefan ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Nick Roberts schrieb: Unfortunately, I have only a dial-up connection and can't give immediate feedback on new Emacs versions. One advantage of using CVS over tarballs is that you only need to download the (compressed) _changes_. Even with a dial-up connection that shouldn't take a long time. Thanks for the hint. I am already familiar with rcs, actually. But I didn't set up a proper environment for compiling Emacs by myself yet. There just wasn't much use in that so far. :) Best regards, Stephan Hennig ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Unfortunately, I have only a dial-up connection and can't give immediate feedback on new Emacs versions. One advantage of using CVS over tarballs is that you only need to download the (compressed) _changes_. Even with a dial-up connection that shouldn't take a long time. Thanks for the hint. I am already familiar with rcs, actually. But I didn't set up a proper environment for compiling Emacs by myself yet. There just wasn't much use in that so far. :) While it helps to just report bugs and with due respect, it's not reasonable to claim that the Emacs developers don't give the Window port a high priority, if you're not in a position to even test the patches which are provided. Some developers work hard on that very issue, -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Nick Roberts schrieb: Unfortunately, I have only a dial-up connection and can't give immediate feedback on new Emacs versions. One advantage of using CVS over tarballs is that you only need to download the (compressed) _changes_. Even with a dial-up connection that shouldn't take a long time. Thanks for the hint. I am already familiar with rcs, actually. But I didn't set up a proper environment for compiling Emacs by myself yet. There just wasn't much use in that so far. :) While it helps to just report bugs and with due respect, it's not reasonable to claim that the Emacs developers don't give the Window port a high priority, If you could cite from a message where I _claimed_ that, it would be much easier for me to respond to that. After rereading my message, I think I didn't claim anything about Emacs development, but only wrote up some personal experiences I've made with Emacs on Windows during the last years. In fact, in Personally, I'd categorize this bug as a show-stopper for a stable release. On the other hand, I don't know if Windows is an officially supported platform. Could someone please clarify that? And what user base does Emacs target to? I finally asked about the relevance of the Windows port, but couldn't see an answer or a pointer to some manifest or such so far. Honestly, it's not clear to me how Emacs and Windows relate. if you're not in a position to even test the patches which are provided. Even if I were able to compile and test patches I don't think that brought me into a position to claim anything about Emacs development. I'll try my best to make my points more clear in the future, but honestly, I can't see yours. Currently, I tend to guess you're trying to say: You'd better shut up as long as you're not an active developer! I could agree that this is not the right list. Some developers work hard on that very issue, Sorry, for bothering you (all). I didn't notice that. To my defence, not being a developer, I don't see how I could have got aware of what's going on behind the scenes other than testing pre-built binaries from time to time and reading several Emacs related mailing lists (watching just this item). Best regards, Stephan Hennig ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
While it helps to just report bugs and with due respect, it's not reasonable to claim that the Emacs developers don't give the Window port a high priority, If you could cite from a message where I _claimed_ that, it would be much easier for me to respond to that. I'm not asking you to respond to it, just to reflect on it. After rereading my message, I think I didn't claim anything about Emacs development, but only wrote up some personal experiences I've made with Emacs on Windows during the last years. I was referring to: Peter Tury I hope you can regenerate the situation easily and fix this bug. SH I hope so, too. But unfortunately, given the fact that it's known for SH nearly two years, I don't think the issue has high priority for the SH developers. If that's related to the fact that it's only present in the SH Windows port, I don't know. SH At this time, you can't tell a person from Windows island to have a look SH at LaTeX Emacs+AUCTeX. He'd laugh at you and say: It can't even SH scroll your files without flickering. I like favourite Office SH better. Well, I don't know what auditorium Emacs targets to. But it's SH obviously not (new) Windows users. First impression failed. if you're not in a position to even test the patches which are provided. Even if I were able to compile and test patches I don't think that brought me into a position to claim anything about Emacs development. It would give your opinion more weight. I'll try my best to make my points more clear in the future, but honestly, I can't see yours. Currently, I tend to guess you're trying to say: You'd better shut up as long as you're not an active developer! Not at all. Just that the state of the Windows port reflects the level of contributions from the user community, of which you are a part. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
As far as I remember scrolling was always problematic (in the same way?) in W32 Emacses, so this is not a new bug? I just installed some changes to _improve_ on those scroll-bar issues. Can you -- and other W32 users -- please try out the latest CVS and tell me ASAP if there are still _severe_ problems with it. At least it seems to work a lot better than before, but we need as much testing as possible BEFORE to the release (which *is* very close now!!). So, also tell me if you tested it, and didn't find any problems! Thanks. -- Kim F. Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cua.dk ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
On 2/19/07, Kim F. Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you -- and other W32 users -- please try out the latest CVS and tell me ASAP if there are still _severe_ problems with it. Hard to say what is a severe problem. With the sample file (scroll.txt): - Make the frame's height 30 lines. - Visit scroll.txt - Move point to eob. - Scroll up to bob. - Release the mouse button. - Scroll down. I can't get past line 46. Juanma ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Kim F. Storm wrote: As far as I remember scrolling was always problematic (in the same way?) in W32 Emacses, so this is not a new bug? I just installed some changes to _improve_ on those scroll-bar issues. Can you -- and other W32 users -- please try out the latest CVS and tell me ASAP if there are still _severe_ problems with it. At least it seems to work a lot better than before, but we need as much testing as possible BEFORE to the release (which *is* very close now!!). So, also tell me if you tested it, and didn't find any problems! Thanks. I have uploaded a new unpatched version Emacs+EmacsW32 for those who want to test: http://ourcomments.org/cgi-bin/emacsw32-dl-latest.pl ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Kim F. Storm schrieb: As far as I remember scrolling was always problematic (in the same way?) in W32 Emacses, so this is not a new bug? I just installed some changes to _improve_ on those scroll-bar issues. Glad to hear about that! So, also tell me if you tested it, and didn't find any problems! Unfortunately, I have only a dial-up connection and can't give immediate feedback on new Emacs versions. Thanks again for looking into this! Best regards, Stephan Hennig ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
So, also tell me if you tested it, and didn't find any problems! Unfortunately, I have only a dial-up connection and can't give immediate feedback on new Emacs versions. One advantage of using CVS over tarballs is that you only need to download the (compressed) _changes_. Even with a dial-up connection that shouldn't take a long time. -- Nick http://www.inet.net.nz/~nickrob ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Juanma Barranquero [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2/19/07, Kim F. Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you -- and other W32 users -- please try out the latest CVS and tell me ASAP if there are still _severe_ problems with it. Hard to say what is a severe problem. With the sample file (scroll.txt): - Make the frame's height 30 lines. - Visit scroll.txt - Move point to eob. - Scroll up to bob. - Release the mouse button. - Scroll down. I can't get past line 46. That's right, but still it is not worse than before. I don't see an easy fix for this, so let's leave it for after the release. -- Kim F. Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cua.dk ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Hi, thanks for the quick fix! I tried latest Emacs W32 (U070219) and for me it seems to be OK: I haven't found any problems with vscrolling. Br, P 2007/2/19, Lennart Borgman (gmail) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Kim F. Storm wrote: Can you -- and other W32 users -- please try out the latest CVS and tell me ASAP if there are still _severe_ problems with it. At least it seems to work a lot better than before, but we need as much testing as possible BEFORE to the release (which *is* very close now!!). So, also tell me if you tested it, and didn't find any problems! I have uploaded a new unpatched version Emacs+EmacsW32 for those who want to test ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
On 2/19/07, Kim F. Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's right, but still it is not worse than before. Aha. I didn't know, I always work without scroll bars. I don't see an easy fix for this, so let's leave it for after the release. Agreed. Juanma ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
Re: vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Peter Tury schrieb: As far as I remember scrolling was always problematic (in the same way?) in W32 Emacses, so this is not a new bug? No, it's a long standing bug. I don't know if that was really the first report, but I've first mentioned it on 2005-02-28 in URL:http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.pretest.bugs/6041, after watching it for a while. The bug report remained without response. A few months later, on 2006-05-30, it got prominent attention URL:http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.pretest.bugs/12304 and after Ralf Angeli gave detailed recipes to reproduce the bug(s) it was discussed by several developers on emacs.devel URL:http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/55689. The result was to fix it when there's time. Again months later, on 2006-07-31, another bug report addressed that issue, again without any response URL:http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.pretest.bugs/13313. Now, another six months later a new iteration of no-time-left. I hope you can regenerate the situation easily and fix this bug. I hope so, too. But unfortunately, given the fact that it's known for nearly two years, I don't think the issue has high priority for the developers. If that's related to the fact that it's only present in the Windows port, I don't know. At this time, you can't tell a person from Windows island to have a look at LaTeX Emacs+AUCTeX. He'd laugh at you and say: It can't even scroll your files without flickering. I like favourite Office better. Well, I don't know what auditorium Emacs targets to. But it's obviously not (new) Windows users. First impression failed. The other problem I'm faced with is, this bug makes slowly migrating to Emacs on Windows a pain. I can't manage to learn all the keyboard short-cuts at once and keep the mouse away, not even in the editor. That's why I'm using SciTE as my regular editor, currently, and Emacs -- as long as scrolling is buggy -- only occasionally (which counteracts memorizing short-cuts). The recent thread OT -- An extremely dumb curiosity question? on emacs.help is really interesting to read and shows a lot of tasks Emacs can be the solution for. But, using Emacs for mail, news or as a calendar is no option for me as long as I can't navigate them with the mouse in the migration phase. In fact, I didn't try to set them up and test for, yet. But I can't spend that time for an application obviously broken at a fundamental level (usability). Personally, I'd categorize this bug as a show-stopper for a stable release. On the other hand, I don't know if Windows is an officially supported platform. Could someone please clarify that? And what user base does Emacs target to? Sorry, for bothering this list with prose. Peter's bug report has just been an invitation to me to share experiences about Emacs on Windows. Unfortunately, I did not manage to switch to Emacs within several years of parallel installation. For one that is interested in doing so, quite a bad result. But I'll keep watching the AUCTeX site for every new Emacs binary. Best regards, Stephan Hennig ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
vertical scrollbar error on MS Windows
Hi, I found that the vertical scrollbar doesn't work correctly in latest EmacsW32 unpatched (see further version info below) when dragged by the mouse. 1. start with emacs -Q 2. make your frame small enough for your test file (= make scrolling possible): if you use the attached test file, then e.g. a 12 lines tall frame will be OK. 3. visit the test file and take point to its end 4. drag the vertical scrollbar (slide? -- I don't know its English name: what is dragged and moved inside the scrollbar) and move it up slowly: after a while you will see line 38... then it goes out from viewable area... 5. keep moving the scrollbar upwards... after a while line 38 appears again -- as the first line of the viewable area!? Similar things happens if you scroll downwards. This behaviour is extremly embarrassing when you want to use scrolling for what it is invented: go up/down quickly while seeing the floating content. In Emacs the content doesn't float, but flicking (I think the reason is the above detailed bug), what is very confusing and makes scrolling a nightmare (this might be a bit strong expression :-)) Another interesting thing is the following: if you release the scrollbar after 4., but before 5., then it skips up a bit, so it doesn't remain under the mouse cursor... now, if you click with the mouse (so the slide(?) will go (back) to the mouse cursor), the line 38's place will be the ~middle of the window... As far as I remember scrolling was always problematic (in the same way?) in W32 Emacses, so this is not a new bug? I hope you can regenerate the situation easily and fix this bug. Thanks in advance, P In GNU Emacs 22.0.93.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2007-02-11 on LENNART-69DE564 X server distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4) --cflags -Ic:/g/include' Important settings: value of $LC_ALL: nil value of $LC_COLLATE: nil value of $LC_CTYPE: nil value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil value of $LC_MONETARY: nil value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil value of $LC_TIME: nil value of $LANG: HUN locale-coding-system: cp1250 default-enable-multibyte-characters: t 1 sdf sf s fs df ---9 sad f er g qe r q r qw gqw g f qwf ---20 e as df a sd f a q wre ---31 e qwe r qwt e er ---38 ||ww ---40 sd d q we qwe jkah Q ---48 E Q ---51 ___ emacs-pretest-bug mailing list emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-pretest-bug
