Re: Test Equipment ...

[Doug McKean]

"Price, Ed" wrote:
>
> Doug:
>
> The rationale that I recall is that test equipment is expected to be
used by
> people who understand the nature of electrical measurements and
safety.
> These people will have the knowledge and resources, beyond those of
a
> typical consumer, to recognize and ameliorate interference and other
> problems. Further, it is argued that compliance measures might
hinder
> absolute accuracy and sensitivity of measurement equipment. Also,
that test
> equipment is not usually manufactured in numbers comparable to
typical
> consumer equipment, so the impact on a society is less.
>
> IIRC, there is a somewhat shorter and simpler explanation buried
somewhere
> in Part 15.

Okay, follow me on this for just a minute.

" 47 CFR, 15.103, Exempted devices.
(c) A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial,
 or medical test equipment."

The important word is "digital".  Why just digital?  Does this mean
if a company makes analog industrial, commercial, or medical test
equipment, that equipment MUST be tested?

Regards, Doug McKean  (slowly becoming more confused ...)



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RE: Test Equipment ...

[Price, Ed]

>-Original Message-
>From: Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:58 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
>Subject: Test Equipment ... 
>
>
>
>Why or what is the reasoning behind test equipment 
>being exempt from all sorts of testing that's required 
>for other pieces of equipment? 
>
>- Doug McKean 


Doug:

The rationale that I recall is that test equipment is expected to be used by
people who understand the nature of electrical measurements and safety.
These people will have the knowledge and resources, beyond those of a
typical consumer, to recognize and ameliorate interference and other
problems. Further, it is argued that compliance measures might hinder
absolute accuracy and sensitivity of measurement equipment. Also, that test
equipment is not usually manufactured in numbers comparable to typical
consumer equipment, so the impact on a society is less.

IIRC, there is a somewhat shorter and simpler explanation buried somewhere
in Part 15.


Ed



Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis

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Re: Test Equipment ...

[Doug McKean]

"Gorodetsky, Vitaly" wrote:
> Doug,
>
> You meant to say FCC exempt.
> Also, keep in mind that if equipment includes any additional
functions other
> than measurement than it shall be tested.

Sorry.  Yes, you're correct.

What's the reason for the exemption from FCC testing?

- Doug



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RE: Test Equipment ...

[Gorodetsky, Vitaly]

Doug,

You meant to say FCC exempt.  
Also, keep in mind that if equipment includes any additional functions other
than measurement than it shall be tested.

Vitaly  Gorodetsky
Compliance Consultant   Direct: (818) 678-3840
Main:   (818) 718-6300
FAX:(818) 678-3740
e-mail: vgorodet...@canoga.com
 

The suitability of this information for making decision is solely with the
reader


-Original Message-
From:   Doug McKean [mailto:dmck...@corp.auspex.com]
Sent:   Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject:Test Equipment ... 


Why or what is the reasoning behind test equipment 
being exempt from all sorts of testing that's required 
for other pieces of equipment? 

- Doug McKean 



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Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?

[Doug McKean]

"Terry Meck" wrote:
>
> Hi Rich:
>
> I thought the lack of creapage spec. at >1000 V is that the
dielectric
> strength of air would be less then the insulating material and
surface
> accumulated contaminates.  As a result the clearance distance would
> be the first to break down >1000 Volts.
>
> Am I wrong?

Not really, but you might have a construction where
the clearance isn't straight line through air.

- Doug McKean



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Test Equipment ...

[Doug McKean]

Why or what is the reasoning behind test equipment 
being exempt from all sorts of testing that's required 
for other pieces of equipment? 

- Doug McKean 



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EN 61000-4-2 ESD Requirements

[Sandy Mazzola]

Members,
 
 Is there anyone who can let me know the status of  any forthcoming 
increase in the EN 61000-4-2 ESD requirements of +/- 8  Kv air and +/- 4  Kv 
contact.   
Also any editorial comment on whether the current requirements are realistic 
would also be appreciated.

Thanks
Have a  great day 


   

Santo Mazzola
Regulatory Engineer
Symbol Technologies Inc
1 Symbol Plaza
Holtsville, N. Y. 11742-1300
Phone:  (631) 738-5373
Fax:  (631) 738-3318
E-mail: mazzo...@symbol.com


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Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?

[Rich Nute]

Hi Terry:


>   I thought the lack of creapage spec. at >1000 V is that the dielectric 
> strength of air would be less then the insulating material and surface 
> accumulated contaminates.  As a result the clearance distance would be the 
> first to break down >1000 Volts.

In general, the electric strength of air is orders
of magnitude less than that of solid insulation.

The distance between conductors on the surface of
an insulator (e.g., a printed wiring board), must
be based on the electric strength of air, not the
solid insulation.  

In some applications, the surface of a solid 
insulation is subject to deposition of an unknown 
foreign matter (referred to in the standards as a
pollution).  Think of this "pollution" as a bread-
crumb trail between the two conductors, that is,
small pieces of matter separated by air.  Consider
the worst-case where the "crumbs" are metallic.
These pieces of metal short out some of the air,
thus redistributing the electric field 
(equipotential lines).  At some point in the
accumulation of foreign matter, the electric field
between two adjacent "crumbs" becomes so great as
to break down the air between the two crumbs.  (An
alternative theory is that the crumbs themselves
dissipate power, glow, and change into a gas.)
This micro-arc (or glowing) has a very high 
temperature, in the thousands of degrees C.  While 
the energy is very small, the thermal energy can 
do microscopic damage to the surface of the solid 
insulation.  For organic insulators, the damaged 
surface degrades to a microscopic carbon dot.  
Carbon, being the stuff resistors are made of, 
contributes to further redistribution of the 
electric field.  And the process continues.

Over a long period of time, a "tree" of carbon
paths will form on the surface of the solid 
insulation.  Eventually, the resistance tree
will connect the two conductors, and a continuous
leakage current will result.  

The resistive path dissipates power in the form
of heat.  This creates still more carbon, reducing 
the value of the resistance, and the leakage 
current goes up.  And the power (and heat) 
disspated in the carbon path goes up.  The process 
continues until a final catastrophic event 
destroys the solid insulation (and, hopefully, 
causes the circuit protection to operate).

According to the researchers, this surface-
insulation failure mechanism is mainly due to the 
working voltage across the insulation.  

(On the other hand, the through-insulation failure 
of solid and air insulation is mainly due to 
overvoltages, not the working voltage.)

The values of distance along the surface of solid
insulation (creepage distance) are based on 
working voltage.  

The values of distance through solid insulation 
and of distance through air insulation are based 
on expected overvoltages.

The values of distance along the surface of solid
insulation are not related to the values of 
distance for air insulation.

As a general rule, the values for creepage 
distance exceed the value for clearance.  When
both are subjected to an overvoltage test, the 
clearance usually will break down rather than
the creepage distance.  However, this is not
the intent of the requirements (because the
clearance distances are minimums and could be
much larger than the creepage distances).

I'm afraid I cannot comment as to why there are
no values for creepage above 1000 V rms.


Best regards,
Rich






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Class III anomoly

[Rich Nute]

This statement piqued my interest:

>   Surely that applies only to Class I products? IF not, it would rule out
>   Class II and III products entirely. Battery-operated hand-helds are
>   Class III.

Class III equipment is defined as equipment that
operates from a SELV supply and does not generate 
hazardous voltage.

Consider the laptop computer.  

It is battery operated.  Therefore it is Class III.

(However, there is an interesting discussion as to
whether a battery is a SELV supply as contemplated 
by the definition of SELV.)

However, the laptop includes an inverter circuit
that generates hazardous voltage to operate the 
backlight.  Often, the inverter circuit is also a
limited current circuit.  By definition, a limited 
current circuit is NOT a hazardous voltage.
Therefore, the laptop is a Class III equipment.

Now consider a laptop whose inverter is NOT a 
limited current circuit.

In this case, we have a product that does not fit
the definition of the equipment classes, I, II, or 
III.

Sub-clause 1.3.3 (2nd Ed.) includes a note that 
says that equipment containing hazardous voltage 
is Class I or Class II.  Therefore, a battery-
operated laptop computer whose inverter circuit is 
not limited current is a Class II equipment 
(because it does not have a protective earthing 
circuit).

The 3rd edition defines equipment classes, but
has no specific statements regarding Class III 
with hazardous voltage.  For the 3rd edition, the
laptop with a hazardous voltage inverter is not
Class I, not Class II, and not Class III.

Unfortunately, the IEC has chosen to use these
terms, Class I, II, and III, for equipment.  If
these terms had been applied to protection means
for circuits, then the battery supply to the 
laptop would be Class III, and the inverter 
circuit would be Class II.  


Best regards,
Rich









>   From owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Mon Jul 30 23:53:01 PDT 2001
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>   Message-ID: <2hui+cahwjz7e...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>
>   Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 06:03:29 +0100
>   To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>   From: John Woodgate 
>   Subject: Re: ESD Design, non-earthed products
>   References: <000ac818.c22...@quester.com>
><000601c11949$ae3488b0$3e3e3...@corp.auspex.com>
>   In-Reply-To: <000601c11949$ae3488b0$3e3e3...@corp.auspex.com>
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>   
>   
>   <000601c11949$ae3488b0$3e3e3...@corp.auspex.com>, Doug McKean
>inimitably wrote:
>   >One of the requirements in 1950 is to 
>   >ground any exposed metal parts accessible to the end user.
>   
>   Surely that applies only to Class I products? IF not, it would rule out
>   Class II and III products entirely. Battery-operated hand-helds are
>   Class III.
>   -- 
>   Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. 
> http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
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2 dB change in identical ports or peripherals?

[Gary McInturff]

Has something changed in the FCC rules concerning the addition of
identical port connections? I never remember the exact paragraph but in
essence the requirement was to keep addition cabling (or peripherals) until
the addition resulted in less than 2 dB of change, and then back off by 1
device. 
Today's pointers to the FCC regulations got me to thinking about
this requirement and in quickly running through the site I ran across this
reference.

(i) If the device under test provides for the connection of external
accessories, including external
electrical input signals, the device shall be tested with the accessories
attached. The device under test
shall be fully exercised with these external accessories. The emission tests
shall be performed with the
device and accessories configured in a manner that tends to produce
maximized emissions within the
range of variations that can be expected under normal operating conditions.
In the case of multiple
accessory external ports, an external accessory shall be connected to one of
each type of port. Only one
test using peripherals or external accessories that are representative of
the devices that will be employed
with the equipment under test is required. All possible equipment
combinations do not need to be tested.
The accessories or peripherals connected to the device being tested shall be
unmodified, commercially
available equipment.

This would seem to say that I only test a minimum system and while I hate to
complain about my life getting easier this doesn't seem to address the
question of protecting the radio spectrum.

I still find this paragraph in the VCCI specifications, and I don't have a
current copy of CISPR 22.

So either I am delusional and have the reference wrong or I am working
myself way to hard these days.

Help
Gary



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Re: Creepage dist. for more than 1000V ?

[Terry Meck]

Hi Rich:

I thought the lack of creapage spec. at >1000 V is that the dielectric strength 
of air would be less then the insulating material and surface accumulated 
contaminates.  As a result the clearance distance would be the first to break 
down >1000 Volts.

Am I wrong?


Best regards,
Terry J. Meck
Senior Compliance/Test Engineer

Accu-Sort Systems Inc.


>>> Rich Nute  07/30/01 03:42PM >>>




Hi Israel and John:


>   >I wonder how to specify creepage distance for Information Technology
>   >Equipment.Table 6 in UL1950 or EN60950  specifies minimum creepage of
>   >10 mm for Working voltage = 1000 V, pollution degree 2, material group IIIb
>   >(basic insulation)  linear Interpolation is permitted between nearest
>   >specified points. So how can one determine creepage distance for 1500 
> V,
>   >2000 V ?

>   Although it ought to be stated more explicitly, this means that you use
>   the clearance tables for voltages for which creepage is not specified in
>   Table 6.

Hmm.  Interesting.  Here are the clearances and 
creepage distances as a function of voltage for
basic insulation, pollution degree 2, material 
group IIIb:


Voltage Table 3  Table 5  Table 6
ClearanceClearanceCreepage
--- --
   50  2.0 mm   1.0 mm  1.2 mm
  100   1.0 1.4
  125   1.5
  150  2.0  1.0 1.6
  200   1.4 2.0
  250   2.5
  300  2.0  1.9 3.2
  400   4.0
  500   2.5
  600  3.2  3.2 6.3
 1000  4.2  4.210.0
 2000  8.4  8.4
 5000 17.5 17.5 

Using John's interpretation, the creepage distance
for 2000 V would be 8.4 mm.  This is less than the 
creepage required for 1000 V.  This is okay because
the rule is that the creepage cannot be less than
the required clearance.

I would be happier if the rule said that, for 
voltages exceeding 1000, the creepage shall be 
not less than the clearance of Table 3 or 5, but 
not less than 10 mm.

Using this rule, I would interpolate the creepage
for 2000 volts using 1000 V/10 mm and 5000 V/17.5
mm.  This would give me a creepage of 10 + 0.4*7.5
or 13 mm.

Since the standard is silent on creepages for 
voltages exceeding 1000 V, there is no correct
interpretation for determining the creepages.  The
most conservative interpretation is most likely to
be accepted by most certification houses.  The 
most conservative intepretation would be a curve
based on the table data.  The data is reasonably
linear:

creepage mm = 0.0097*V + 0.29

Using this equation, the creepage for 2000 V 
would be 19.7 mm.

Creepages at some voltages are larger than clearances 
in order to minimize long-term surface degradation 
due to the value of working voltage.  Studies of 
these effects have been published.   

In the above table, we see that, for primary 
circuits, creepage is less than clearance for 
voltages up to 200.  Above 200 volts, creepage 
exceeds clearance.  This suggests that for 2000 
volts, the creepage should be larger than the 
8.4 mm clearance.


Best regards,
Rich


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Re: ESD Design, non-earthed products

[Doug McKean]

"John Woodgate" wrote:
> Doug McKean inimitably wrote:
>
> >One of the requirements in 1950 is to
> >ground any exposed metal parts accessible to the end user.
>
> Surely that applies only to Class I products? IF not, it would rule
out
> Class II and III products entirely. Battery-operated hand-helds are
> Class III.

Thanks John,  I've deleted the original post.  In my haste,
I assumed it was Class I and was thinking in regards to a
product which used plastic entirely for enclosure, had no
chassis ground, and mains primary ground was connected
only the power supply chassis.

Sorry guys ...

- Doug McKean



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RE: FCC Standards

[David_Sterner]

FCC CFR-47 Parts 15 and 68  are posted on FCC's website http://www.fcc.gov 

Part 68 (telephone terminal) administration was officially outsourced to
ACTA (Administrative Council for Termianl Attachments) July 23, 2001.
ACTA's website http://www.part68.org has draft versions of the revised Part
68, administrative procedures and minutes of their meetings.  Eventually a
self-declaration route will be available, but during the transition period
telco approvals must process through a TCB.  A list of TCB's is also on the
ACTA site.  Some TCB's also have websites.

David

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 1:05 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: FCC Standards



<002e01c1196f$154cbf20$b168bfc8@marx>, Muriel Bittencourt de Liz
 inimitably wrote:
>I'd like to know what requirements apply to the following standards:
>
>- FCC 15 (47 CFR 0-19)
>- FCC 68 (49 CFR 40-69)

You can't expect anyone to reproduce here all the requirements in a
standard. You have to obtain your own copy and read it.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected 
by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means
YOU! 
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Tracking Test - IEC60112

[Luiz Claudio]

Dear colleagues,

I am starting an investigation of the main factors affecting the results of the 
Tracking Test as prescribed by IEC60112. I have researched the web and found 
some papers about the subject which would be very helpful (although not all 
following strictly the IEC procedure). Unfortunately, I don't have quick access 
to any library that could have these papers. Therefore, I kindly ask you to 
take a look at the attached file and see if you have any of these works. I'm 
willing to pay for copyrighted material.

In the other hand, if you have done similar study concerning this test 
procedure, I would really appreciate receiving your comments.

Best Regards,

Luiz Bonilla
Joinville - BRAZIL


Abstracts Tracking Test.doc
Description: MS-Word document

RE: EN 61010-1

[richard . payne]

Hi Scott:

We haven't actually started evaluating products to the 2nd edition yet. But
we are keeping an eye to the 2nd edition requirements which have changed
significantly (like power limitations for Limited Circuits) as we evaluate
products still to the 1st edition.

Do you have any information on the effectivity date for the 2nd edition, or
date of withdrawal for the 1st edition ?

Richard Payne
Tektronix, Inc.
Product Safety Engineering
Tel:  503 627-1820
Fax: 503 627-3838
email:  richard.pa...@tektronix.com 





-Original Message-
From: Scott Barrows [mailto:sbarr...@curtis-straus.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 1:56 PM
To: PSTC
Subject: EN 61010-1



Hello All,
Has anyone started evaluations or testing to EN61010-1,  2nd edition
2001 -02  yet?

Scott Barrows
Curtis Straus LLC


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RE: FCC Standards

[UMBDENSTOCK]

Muriel,

A general link for free copies of the regulations offered by the FCC Office
of Engineering and Technology including Part 15 and Part 68 is available at 


http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/cfr/1999/

The OET also keeps Part 15 up to date at

http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/rules/part15/part15_may24_01.pdf

I have not found a similar site for Part 68.  Hope this helps.

Don Umbdenstock
Sensormatic Electronics Corporation

> --
> From: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz[SMTP:mur...@eel.ufsc.br]
> Reply To: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:15 PM
> To:   EMC-PSTC
> Subject:  FCC Standards
> 
> 
> Hello Group,
> 
> I'd like to know what requirements apply to the following standards:
> 
> - FCC 15 (47 CFR 0-19)
> - FCC 68 (49 CFR 40-69)
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> %%
> Muriel Bittencourt de Liz
> Electrical Engineering Department
> Federal University at Santa Catarina
> Florianópolis, SC
> Brasil
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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RE: FCC Standards

[Geoff Lister]

Muriel,
Try

http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=199847

I have used the above for free on-line access to download the standards.

Regards,
Geoff Lister
Senior Engineer
Motion Media Technology Ltd.,
Bristol, UK.
http://www.motion-media.com 


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 31 July 2001 06:05
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: FCC Standards



<002e01c1196f$154cbf20$b168bfc8@marx>, Muriel Bittencourt de Liz
 inimitably wrote:
>I'd like to know what requirements apply to the following standards:
>
>- FCC 15 (47 CFR 0-19)
>- FCC 68 (49 CFR 40-69)

You can't expect anyone to reproduce here all the requirements in a
standard. You have to obtain your own copy and read it.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected 
by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means
YOU! 
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RE: FCC Standards

[Don Rhodes]

Muriel,

You're asking for a lot of information, the best thing to do is refer you to
the website where the FCC rules are posted.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200047  This
is the link to Title 47 of the CFR

http://www.fcc.gov/ccb/nsd/documents/PART68.HTMLThis
is the link to Title 68 of the CFR

I hope it helps,

> Don Rhodes
> EMC Engineer
> Product Development 
> InFocus ASA - Norway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> From: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz[SMTP:mur...@eel.ufsc.br]
> Reply To: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 5:15 AM
> To:   EMC-PSTC
> Subject:  FCC Standards
> 
> 
> Hello Group,
> 
> I'd like to know what requirements apply to the following standards:
> 
> - FCC 15 (47 CFR 0-19)
> - FCC 68 (49 CFR 40-69)
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> %%
> Muriel Bittencourt de Liz
> Electrical Engineering Department
> Federal University at Santa Catarina
> Florianópolis, SC
> Brasil
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
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Re: FCC Standards

[John Woodgate]

<002e01c1196f$154cbf20$b168bfc8@marx>, Muriel Bittencourt de Liz
 inimitably wrote:
>I'd like to know what requirements apply to the following standards:
>
>- FCC 15 (47 CFR 0-19)
>- FCC 68 (49 CFR 40-69)

You can't expect anyone to reproduce here all the requirements in a
standard. You have to obtain your own copy and read it.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected 
by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! 
The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in
any medium. If you are not the intended recipient, please advise the sender 
yesterday at the latest.

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Re: ESD Design, non-earthed products

[John Woodgate]

<000601c11949$ae3488b0$3e3e3...@corp.auspex.com>, Doug McKean
 inimitably wrote:
>One of the requirements in 1950 is to 
>ground any exposed metal parts accessible to the end user.

Surely that applies only to Class I products? IF not, it would rule out
Class II and III products entirely. Battery-operated hand-helds are
Class III.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
This message and its contents are not confidential, privileged or protected 
by law. Access is only authorised by the intended recipient - this means YOU! 
The contents may be disclosed to, or used by, anyone and stored or copied in
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FCC standards

[Muriel Bittencourt de Liz]

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FCC Standards

[Muriel Bittencourt de Liz]

Hello Group,

I'd like to know what requirements apply to the following standards:

- FCC 15 (47 CFR 0-19)
- FCC 68 (49 CFR 40-69)

Thanks in advance

%%
Muriel Bittencourt de Liz
Electrical Engineering Department
Federal University at Santa Catarina
Florianópolis, SC
Brasil



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