Re: Isolation methods for surge immunity tests

[Ken Javor]

I don't know how the laptop and EUT communicate, but my Fluke 97 Scopemeter
uses an opto-isolated RS-232 serial link.

--
>From: "Biggs, Daniel (IndSys, GEFanuc, NA)" 
>To: "'EMC-PSTC Internet Forum' (E-mail)" 
>Subject: Isolation methods for surge immunity tests
>Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001, 3:15 PM
>

>
> We are testing a comm line for 61000-4-5 and are using a laptop PC for
> support equipment (EUT will be talking to the PC).  Do any of you know what
> could be used to isolate the PC from the surge being applied to the EUT comm
> line?  Are opto-isolaters typically used for this purpose, and if so, can
> anyone suggest a make/model for one of these?
>
>
> Thanks,
> DB
>
>
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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RE: RE: Fish paper

[JMurphy]

You have to be kidding me

-Original Message-
From: Pryor McGinnis [mailto:c...@prodigy.net]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 1:24 PM
To: Gary McInturff; peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com; sco...@world.std.com;
wo...@sensormatic.com
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: RE: Fish paper 



GO FISH!

- Original Message -
From: Gary McInturff 
To: ; ;

Cc: 
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: RE: Fish paper


>
> Okay,  I've pretty much Haddock! - I'm going to Ivars for fishpaper and
> chips!
> Gary
>
> -Original Message-
> From: peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com
> [mailto:peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:36 AM
> To: sco...@world.std.com; wo...@sensormatic.com
> Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re:RE: Fish paper
>
>
>
> Holy mackerel!  I hake to add to this thread but I really have to crab.
> What
> kind of grouper is this?  Deep down in my sole I belive Cod didn't intend
> email
> to be used for this kind of carp, its drum.  I think its a pain in the
bass
> and
> its giving me a haddock.  Please cut it trout, if for no other reason then
> just
> for the halibut.
>
> Just kidding, a little humor is nice to see.
>
> Reply Separator
> Subject:RE: Fish paper
> Author: "Scott Lacey" 
> Date:   10/25/01 7:13 PM
>
> RE: Fish paperSorry guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take
a
> mackerel to keep me out of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in
> even if it seems crappie to some. Let's hear from some of those who just
> perch here walleye'm in the mood for it. Otherwise the rest of us will
wind
> up in a pickerel.
>
> Scott Lacey
>   -Original Message-
>   From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
wo...@sensormatic.com
>   Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:17 PM
>   To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>   Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
>   Let's hear from others. Don't be squidish or shellfish and clam up on
us.
>
>
>   Sorry, the devil made me do it.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Whitehouse, Terence (Terry) [mailto:twhiteho...@avaya.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:54 PM
> To: 'Dan Teninty'; lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
> What a great grouper we are.  With snapper responses we don't flounder
> around because - like Marlin Deitrich - we have got lots of sole.
>
>
>
> This laughter therapy is recommended by the Sturgeon General; so let's
> not change our tuna - there must be lots more to come.!
>
>
> Terry W.
>   -Original Message-
>   From: Dan Teninty [mailto:dteni...@dtec-associates.com]
>   Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:05 AM
>   To: lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>   Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
>   I smelt that coming :>)
>
>   Dan
>
>   DTEC Associates LLC
>   http://www.dtec-associates.com
>   Streamlining the Compliance Process
>   5406 S. Glendora Drive
>   Spokane, WA 99223
>   (509) 443-0215
>   (509) 443-0181 fax
>
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of lcr...@tuvam.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:36 AM
> To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
> I think you have Perch'ed your argument rather precariously.
Walleye
> understand where you are coming from, Salmon is sure to disagree with you.
> Best reference the National Electrical Cod.   ;-)
>
> Lauren Crane
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wmf...@aol.com [mailto:wmf...@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:04 AM
> To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
>
>
> Of course; after its namesake, fish paper could be expected to be
> hygroscopic. Or maybe someone just called it fish paper for the halibut.
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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the
> old messa

Fw: skinny power cords.

[Nick Rouse]

- Original Message -
From: "Nick Rouse" <100626.3...@compuserve.com>
To: "WELLMAN,RON (A-PaloAlto,ex1)" 
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: skinny power cords.


> Earlier on in the thread it was not about arcing across the pins of a plug
> but about the dangers or having a power cord rated lower than the
> protection in the supply. Damage to the cord such as squashing it under
> the legs of furniture or repeated flexing or overloads in simple unfused
> equipment like table lights can cause overheating in the cord that will
not
> trip out the circuit protection.
> Fused plugs do allow thin power cords to be used safely from supplies that
> have a high rated current, In the UK power outlets are on a ring protected
> by a 30A or 50A fuse or breaker.
>
> Nick Rouse
>
>  Original Message -
> From: "WELLMAN,RON (A-PaloAlto,ex1)" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 3:05 PM
> Subject: RE: skinny power cords.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Earlier on in this thread it was eluded that this problem was leading to
> the
> > need of fused power plugs, similar to what is done in the UK. However,
> based
> > on the analyses of several people, I do not see how a fused plug would
of
> > prevented the failure that Robert experienced.
> >
> > Regards,
> > +=+
> > |Ronald R. Wellman|Voice : 408-345-8229   |
> > |Agilent Technologies |FAX   : 408-553-2412   |
> > |5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.,|E-Mail: ron_well...@agilent.com|
> > |Mailstop 54L-BB  |WWW   : http://www.agilent.com |
> > |Santa Clara, California 95052 USA|   |
> > +=+
> > | "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age   |
> > |  eighteen." - Albert Einstein   |
> > +=+
> >
> > ---
> > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> >
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RE: FDA

[Gregg Kervill]

As with all things regulatory there are exceptions.

The FDA also test certain types of Medical Devices, and LASERs - we had a
class III LASER for a portable CDR/W.

Gregg


-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Juhasz
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 11:53 AM
To: 'Colgan, Chris'; 'am...@westin-emission.no';
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: FDA



How about trying the basics, definitions:

FDA  = Food & Drug Administration
FCC = Federal Communications Commission

I think that's a pretty good indication of the differences.

John Juhasz
Fiber Options
Bohemia, NY

-Original Message-
From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:43 AM
To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: FDA



The very basic difference is that the FDA are safety related and the FCC EMC
related.

Both have very comprehensive websites

http://www.fda.gov/

http://www.fcc.gov/

Regards

Chris Colgan
Compliance Engineer
TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
The Summit, Latham Road
Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
*Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627
*Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159
* Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com
* http://www.tagmclaren.com


> -Original Message-
> From: am...@westin-emission.no [SMTP:am...@westin-emission.no]
> Sent: 26 October 2001 10:15
> To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  FDA
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> What is the basic differences between FDA and FCC ? Don't laugh, yes I
> know
> it is a silly question, but if you want to certify medical equipment, are
> the requirements covered in the FDA or in the FCC regulations ?
>
> As you understand, within this field, I'm a really novice ...
>
> Best regards
> Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway
>
>
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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RE: A Fish by any other name would smell as sweet... Was RE: RE: Fish paper

[Chris Maxwell]

Elephant hide, huh?  I hear elephants have a really dense hide.  Sort of
a "packy-dermis"

Please don't boo have a great weekend guys!

> -Original Message-
> From: Gregg Kervill [SMTP:gkerv...@eu-link.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 2:06 PM
> To:   'Estrella Gil-P19838'; wo...@sensormatic.com;
> emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  RE: A Fish by any other name would smell as sweet...
> Was   RE: RE: Fish paper 
> 
> 
> It's easy - he hides in his trunk.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Estrella Gil-P19838 [mailto:gil.estre...@gd-decisionsystems.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 1:16 PM
> To: 'Gregg Kervill'; wo...@sensormatic.com;
> emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: A Fish by any other name would smell as sweet... Was RE:
> RE: Fish paper
> 
> 
> Must be hard to "Hide" an Elephant!
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Gregg Kervill [mailto:gkerv...@eu-link.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:59 AM
> To: wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: A Fish by any other name would smell as sweet... Was RE: RE:
> Fish paper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to cause a minor spin to this thread - We used a thin card (about
> 0.01")that we called Elephant Hide.
> 
> G
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
> wo...@sensormatic.com
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:57 AM
> To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: RE: Fish paper
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm having a whale of a time.
> 
> Richard Woods
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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Isolation methods for surge immunity tests

[Biggs, Daniel (IndSys, GEFanuc, NA)]

We are testing a comm line for 61000-4-5 and are using a laptop PC for
support equipment (EUT will be talking to the PC).  Do any of you know what
could be used to isolate the PC from the surge being applied to the EUT comm
line?  Are opto-isolaters typically used for this purpose, and if so, can
anyone suggest a make/model for one of these?


Thanks,
DB



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Re: skinny power cords.

[Nick Rouse]

Robert Macy wrote 

>> Anyway, a little damn fuse in the plug would not have helped in this
> circumstance, complete waste of time, much like the main breaker was.

No the fuse in UK plugs would not have helped in this case but the 34mm
of creepage distance between the pins that you get in most plugs built to
of the latest version of BS1363 would most certainly have done so

Nick Rouse



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What's the Skinny on IEC60799 for Power Cords?

[Lesmeister, Glenn]

Sorry, a completely different issue.

Can anyone explain the relevance of IEC60799 with respect to ITE
detachable power supply cords?  This standard is not referenced in
IEC60950, however, it is in the OJ.  I don't have this document, so I
don't know what is specifically in the scope.

I have always looked for a certification from power cord vendors for
European cord sets, only to be told that they do not certify the
assemblies.  They only certify the components to IEC60227, IEC 60320 and
the appropriate country plug standard.  This has always been sufficient
for the agencies, however, it seems to me that with the presence
IEC60799 in the OJ, there would be no shortage of cord set
certifications.

The reason this has come up is that a certain cord set manufacturer is
concerned about assembling a particular cord set that has an unusual
combination of plug and connector rating/configuration and is citing
60799.  I understand their concern because UL would never approve a cord
set with non-matching NEMA configurations, however, I always understood
IEC60320 as not being as hard lined about this.  After all, you can get
C14-C3, C5 or C7 adapters anywhere.  If you reverse this, it's possible
to create a hazard, however, I've seen these around and I don't know
that they are illegal. 

Regards,

Glenn Lesmeister
Product Regulatory Compliance

Compaq Computer Corp.   Tel: 281-514-5163
20555 SH 249, MS60607   Fax: 281-514-8029
Houston,  TX 77070-2698 Pgr: 713-786-4930
glenn.lesmeis...@compaq.com


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CISPR 13, EN 55013

[Ken Javor]

Assembled Experts,

A NASA colleague of mine has EN 55013 test results on an electronic
keyboard.  The test results are a graph of dBpW vs. frequency, with a
conversion chart for getting from measured data in dBuV to dBpW to be
plotted against the limit.  I have a 1975 version of CISPR 13 and can find
nothing that leads to a dBpW limit.  The keyboard is battery powered so I
assume the test was radiated in nature.  Any ideas out there on what was
measured?

Thank you.

Ken Javor

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Request for Input - Third Party Request

[Metse]

We are testing 2 coil windings (at a same time) for resistance using 4 wires 
Kelvin connection. Acceptable (Pass) Value ranges for the parts are: Part  A 
2.3 - 2.7 Ohm Part B 5.4 - 5.8 Ohms. We want to know if the part is within 
(good) these ranges or out (bad) of these ranges. We should be able to connect 
your output to our digital PLC I/O Card, or simply to trigger a
relay. (NO RS-232)

In the station prior to the testing station, terminals of the coil winding are 
being dipped into soldering pot resulting on the temperature increase, which 
then effects our resistance readings.

We want (ideally) to measure the temperature of the part using infrared sensor, 
inputting that into the tester and compensating for the temperature. This would 
require a tester that would be able to do some computation.

Ed


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Arc Fault Interrupters are Next

[Lou Aiken]

This is what happens when politicians start practicing outside the scope of 
their abilities.

An arc fault interrupter instead of a plug containing a substantial inter 
support? -  as the European plugs have had as long as I can remember.

We have no insertion extraction force specification for socket outlets? - as 
the CEE and other national standards require in Europe..- CEE 7, Clause 22.


Lou Aiken
27109 Palmetto Drive
Orange Beach, AL
36561 USA
Notice the area codes
tel +1 251 981 6786  
fax +1 251 981 3054
mobile +1 334 979 4648
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kenneth McCormick 
  To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
  Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:31 AM
  Subject: RE: skinny power cords.



  I think the answer to the problem exists.  The 2002 version of the National 
  Electric Code will require Arc Fault Interrupters in bedrooms.

  See the link below from the CPSC for details.

  http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/afci.html

RE: FDA

[Price, Ed]

>-Original Message-
>From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com]
>Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:43 AM
>To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: FDA
>
>
>
>The very basic difference is that the FDA are safety related 
>and the FCC EMC
>related.
>
>Both have very comprehensive websites
>
>http://www.fda.gov/
>
>http://www.fcc.gov/
>
>Regards
>
>Chris Colgan
>Compliance Engineer
>TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
>The Summit, Latham Road
>Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
>*Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627
>*Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159
>* Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com
>* http://www.tagmclaren.com


The FDA has several references to non-FCC standards. Here's a couple of
quotes from the FDA site:


"MDS-201-0004, Electromagnetic Compatibility Standard for Medical Devices,
October 1, 1979. This standard was developed under contract from FDA by
McDonnell Douglas, but was not adopted as mandatory; it is considered a
voluntary guideline."

"Over the past 20 years, several standards applicable to medical devices
were developed with EMC requirements, primarily standards for military
products (MIL-STD), the Association for the Advancement of Medical
Instrumentation (AAMI) pacemaker standard, and a 1979 medical device EMC
standard (MDS-201-0004). The latter two standards were written under
contracts from FDA but were not adopted as mandatory; they are considered
voluntary guidance. Recently, the international standards development
process, in which FDA has participated, has developed significant and
appropriate standards. They are not ideal, but when used, they certainly
increase product safety. Appendix B lists examples of available standards.

CDRH encourages manufacturers of electromedical equipment to use the IEC
60601-1-2 standard, a widely recognized standard issued by the International
Electrotechnical Commission, Geneva, Switzerland. [NOTE: IEC recently
renumbered the standards, adding 6 to all previous numbers, so
investigators may know it as IEC 601-1-2.] It is a collateral standard to
IEC 60601-1, which is a horizontal (product family) standard intended to
apply across many medical disciplines. Other standards such as MIL-STDs or
some industry standards may be appropriate as well. It is the manufacturer's
responsibility to determine the most appropriate specifications and
requirements for their devices. If conformance claims have been made in a
PMA or the labeling, however, the GMP documents should contain documented
evidence consistent with and supporting those claims.

The IEC 60601 series currently includes a general safety standard, four
collateral standards (systems, EMC, diagnostic x-ray protection, and
programmable electrical medical systems), and over 40 particular, or product
specific standards that adapt the general and collateral standards. Related
international standards contain details of the IEC 60601-1-2 requirements
and test methods (e.g., International Special Committee on Radio
Interference (CISPR) standards CISPR 11 and CISPR 16, and IEC 61000-4-x
which supersedes the obsolete IEC 801-x series). FDA investigators may be
aware of IEC 801-2, since many firms have used it to determine requirements
for controlling ESD during manufacturing.

These standards are subject to frequent revisions and many documents have to
be reviewed simultaneously to determine the current requirements. Hence,
manufacturers of the same device, claiming to meet the same standard, may
have differing specifications. Firms may claim partial or complete
conformance to IEC 60601-1-2 or may have alternate test methods or
parameters. Partial conformance may be adequate if the firm substantiates
and/or justifies the deviations.

The IEC 60601-1-2 standard provides various limits on emissions and
immunity. While these limits are clear, the pass/fail criteria are not.
Therefore, CDRH encourages manufacturers to clearly specify all deviations
from the standard, their specific pass/fail criteria, and justifications as
part of their GMP documentation.

(NOTE that IEC 60601-1-2 is not applicable to in vitro diagnostic devices or
sterilizers but may be used.)"


Regards,

Ed


Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis

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RE: skinny power cords.

[Greg Nielsen]

Robert

Know that even UL Certified extension cords are for temporary use only.
They are not to be plugged into an appliance and left undisturbed for a long
period of time.

Greg Nielsen
Compliance Engineer
Set Engineering, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: Robert Macy [mailto:m...@california.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:30 PM
To: Jim Eichner; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: skinny power cords.



Yes, I believe it was contamination.

There is a tissue box on the night stand above the outlet.  Tissue lint is
insidious.  The extension cord had been plugged in (AND LEFT UNDISTURBED)
for a long period of time.  Exactly, how the buildup made its way to an
inside surface I don't know.

But remember, an experienced fireman related that this is how most
electrical fires start in his experience - an outlet shorts between blades
(or in that area), the breaker does not trip while the arc is sustained,
flames develop, and great damage occurs.

I was upset that the 15A breaker could care less about the arc sizzling at
the outlet.

The reason I mention the extension cord is to point out that the plug
plugged into the outlet was high quality and not a "cheap" lamp cord of
suspect origin.  Yet, this plug still carbonized AND FLAMED! making things
much worse.

Now, I do maintenance around our home using compressed air can to blow the
outlet box clear of everything and unplug everything and wipe all surfaces
clean.  This has worked, but may not always, since sprays etc used in the
area tend to produce a gummy, waxlike deposit on the outlet and there still
may be stuff down inside.

  - Robert -

   Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
   408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
   AJM International Electronics Consultants
   619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112

-Original Message-
From: Jim Eichner 
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: skinny power cords.


>
>I'm curious:  given that North American plug blades are >1/2" apart, there
>must have been substantial contamination to aid in 120Vac jumping that far
>(arcing).  Did you identify any sort of contamination or moisture?
>
>Jim Eichner, P.Eng.
>Manager, Engineering Services
>Xantrex Technology Inc.
>Mobile Power
>phone:  (604) 422-2546
>fax:  (604) 420-1591
>e-mail:  jim.eich...@xantrex.com
>web: www.xantrex.com
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Robert Macy [mailto:m...@california.com]
>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:50 AM
>To: Roman, Dan; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: Re: skinny power cords.
>
>
>
>Just have to jump in here with personal experience:
>
>In our bedroom we have a deLonghi radiator heater which uses an extension
>cord (high cost UL approved) heavy guage #12 wire to power it - when it's
>used.  This extension cord plugs into a "multi outlet" adapter, also heavy
>duty UL approved.  At the time of the incident there was no power being
used
>from this outlet.
>
>I was in another room, my wife was sitting on the edge of the bed watching
a
>news blurb on TV when she heard a funny sound, a scritch, scritch.   She
>called to me to come listen.  Scritch, scritch, scritch got louder.  As I
>arrived, flames started lapping up the wall from the outlet while still
>making arcing sounds.  The flames were less than 6 inches from curtains.  I
>reached into all this and unplugged the extension cord which luckily
stopped
>the fireworks display.  Imagine, if we had not been there.
>
>Upon examination, it appeared that an arc had formed between the blades of
>the extension cord (remember no power at the time).  That arc was not
>sufficient to drop the 15A breaker to the outlet, yet was sufficient to
>carbonize the UL approved material which further sustained the arc.
>
>I posted this to the newsgroup alt.home.repair where a fireman jumped in
>describing how this exact mechanism is what starts most home fires!  Isn't
>that an encouraging thought!
>
>Anyway, a little damn fuse in the plug would not have helped in this
>circumstance, complete waste of time, much like the main breaker was.
>
> - Robert -
>
>   Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
>   408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
>   AJM International Electronics Consultants
>   619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Roman, Dan 
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
>Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:41 AM
>Subject: RE: skinny power cords.
>
>
>>
>>I agreed completely with Scott.  A 6 to 9 foot 18AWG cord will handle well
>>in excess of 20A for a short period of time without starting to smoke
>(heck,
>>it'll handle close to in excess of 60A for a very very short time without
>>bursting into flames--not that it was a good experience finding this out).
>>Point is, the cordage will handle a fault either indefinit

Re: skinny power cords.

[Andrew Carson]

I feel like jumping in on this very interesting and enlightening thread. As it 
reinforces a few issues I have often
had to explain to the various design engineers and gives me more ammunition to 
support the need for fault testing.

Just because a product is UL approved does not mean it is safe or suitable for 
the application. In Europe the LVD
covers this quite clearly by stating that testing to a standard alone, is 
inadequate for demonstrating compliance to
the directive. We have to go that one step further and consider forcible use 
and misuse.

After all standards evolve as lessons, like this one, are learnt. If there were 
never any electrical fires, there
would be no safety standards. When a new revision of a UL standard is issued, 
manufactures generally have 5 years
before they must submit their old products for approval to the new level of 
standard. Even then, this does not apply
to products already within the supply chain. The chap actually selling the 
goods might have no idea that the UL marked
goods they are dutifully selling, were approved to a now defunct standard and 
they nolonger comply !

Also reinforces the basic rule, if it is plastic and the ignition source is 
large enough, it will burn. A 5V or V0
flame rating does not mean it is fire proof, just that it will not contribute 
to the fire.

Personally though I have never been comfortable with US plugs and outlets with 
out an inbuilt on/off switch. I like
our big chunky UK plugs.

Anyway, slightly off track. But it Friday night, so time to say have a good 
weekend everyone.

PS. Enough of the fish jokes !

Kenneth McCormick wrote:

> I think the answer to the problem exists.  The 2002 version of the National
> Electric Code will require Arc Fault Interrupters in bedrooms.
>
> See the link below from the CPSC for details.
>
> http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/afci.html
>
> >From: "Colgan, Chris" 
> >Reply-To: "Colgan, Chris" 
> >To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> >Subject: RE: skinny power cords.
> >Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:51:20 +0100
> >
> >
> >I used to curse the size of our British BS1363 plugs and socket outlets.  I
> >won't be so hasty in the future.
> >
> >Chris Colgan
> >Compliance Engineer
> >TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
> >The Summit, Latham Road
> >Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
> >*Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627
> >*Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159
> >* Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com
> >* http://www.tagmclaren.com
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From:   Dan Kwok [SMTP:dk...@intetron.com]
> > > Sent:   26 October 2001 00:10
> > > To: Robert Macy
> > > Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> > > Subject:Re: skinny power cords.
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert,
> > >
> > > It would seem this kind of problem may also happen without an extension
> > > cord. I know a fellow that used to unplug most of his appliances from
> > > the wall in anticipation of a lightning storm. I guess you can't be too
> > > careful.
> > >
> > > -
> > > Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
> > > Principal Engineer
> > > Electromagnetic Compatibility
> > > Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
> > > Ph  (604) 432-9874
> > > E-mail dk...@intetron.com
> > > Internet  http://www.intetron.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Macy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It definitely was not supplied by the heater company.  It was a high
> > > quality
> > > > UL approved cord.  It's just that this cord carbonized and burst into
> > > flame
> > > > as the arc was existing.  The flames did immediately extinguish when
> >the
> > > arc
> > > > was stopped by unplugging the cord which is good.
> > > >
> > > > But again, it was disturbing that the 15A breaker provided no
> > > protection.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, it was a good lesson for this "sleeping" guy.  Now I take
> > > electrical
> > > > distribution inside my home much more seriously.
> > > >
> > > >- Robert -
> > > >
> > > >Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
> > > >408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
> > > >AJM International Electronics Consultants
> > > >619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: Dan Kwok 
> > > > To: Robert Macy ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> > > > 
> > > > Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:42 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: skinny power cords.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Hi Robert,
> > > > >
> > > > >Recently, I bought several similar heaters for my home. I recall
> > > reading in
> > > > >the operation instructions, explicit safety warnings against using
> > > > extension
> > > > >cords with the heater. Was the extension cord supplied with the
> >heater?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >-
> > > > >Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
> > > > >Principal Engineer
> > > > >Electromagnetic Compatibility
> > > > >Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
> > > > >Ph  (604) 432-9874
> > > > >E-mail dk...@intetron.com
> > > 

RE: A Fish by any other name would smell as sweet... Was RE: RE: Fish paper

[Gregg Kervill]

It's easy - he hides in his trunk.

-Original Message-
From: Estrella Gil-P19838 [mailto:gil.estre...@gd-decisionsystems.com]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 1:16 PM
To: 'Gregg Kervill'; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: A Fish by any other name would smell as sweet... Was RE:
RE: Fish paper


Must be hard to "Hide" an Elephant!



-Original Message-
From: Gregg Kervill [mailto:gkerv...@eu-link.com]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:59 AM
To: wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: A Fish by any other name would smell as sweet... Was RE: RE:
Fish paper




Just to cause a minor spin to this thread - We used a thin card (about
0.01")that we called Elephant Hide.

G



-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
wo...@sensormatic.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:57 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: RE: Fish paper



I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm having a whale of a time.

Richard Woods



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Re: RE: Fish paper

[Doug McKean]

The entire discussion is a Red Herring! 

- Doug McKean 




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Re: RE: Fish paper

[Pryor McGinnis]

GO FISH!

- Original Message -
From: Gary McInturff 
To: ; ;

Cc: 
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: RE: Fish paper


>
> Okay,  I've pretty much Haddock! - I'm going to Ivars for fishpaper and
> chips!
> Gary
>
> -Original Message-
> From: peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com
> [mailto:peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:36 AM
> To: sco...@world.std.com; wo...@sensormatic.com
> Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re:RE: Fish paper
>
>
>
> Holy mackerel!  I hake to add to this thread but I really have to crab.
> What
> kind of grouper is this?  Deep down in my sole I belive Cod didn't intend
> email
> to be used for this kind of carp, its drum.  I think its a pain in the
bass
> and
> its giving me a haddock.  Please cut it trout, if for no other reason then
> just
> for the halibut.
>
> Just kidding, a little humor is nice to see.
>
> Reply Separator
> Subject:RE: Fish paper
> Author: "Scott Lacey" 
> Date:   10/25/01 7:13 PM
>
> RE: Fish paperSorry guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take
a
> mackerel to keep me out of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in
> even if it seems crappie to some. Let's hear from some of those who just
> perch here walleye'm in the mood for it. Otherwise the rest of us will
wind
> up in a pickerel.
>
> Scott Lacey
>   -Original Message-
>   From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
wo...@sensormatic.com
>   Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:17 PM
>   To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>   Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
>   Let's hear from others. Don't be squidish or shellfish and clam up on
us.
>
>
>   Sorry, the devil made me do it.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Whitehouse, Terence (Terry) [mailto:twhiteho...@avaya.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:54 PM
> To: 'Dan Teninty'; lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
> What a great grouper we are.  With snapper responses we don't flounder
> around because - like Marlin Deitrich - we have got lots of sole.
>
>
>
> This laughter therapy is recommended by the Sturgeon General; so let's
> not change our tuna - there must be lots more to come.!
>
>
> Terry W.
>   -Original Message-
>   From: Dan Teninty [mailto:dteni...@dtec-associates.com]
>   Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:05 AM
>   To: lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>   Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
>   I smelt that coming :>)
>
>   Dan
>
>   DTEC Associates LLC
>   http://www.dtec-associates.com
>   Streamlining the Compliance Process
>   5406 S. Glendora Drive
>   Spokane, WA 99223
>   (509) 443-0215
>   (509) 443-0181 fax
>
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of lcr...@tuvam.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:36 AM
> To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
> I think you have Perch'ed your argument rather precariously.
Walleye
> understand where you are coming from, Salmon is sure to disagree with you.
> Best reference the National Electrical Cod.   ;-)
>
> Lauren Crane
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wmf...@aol.com [mailto:wmf...@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:04 AM
> To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: Fish paper
>
>
>
>
> Of course; after its namesake, fish paper could be expected to be
> hygroscopic. Or maybe someone just called it fish paper for the halibut.
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
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> No longer online until our new server is brought online and
the
> old messages are imported into the new server.
>
> 
> RE: Fish paper
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  class=920465822-25102001>Sorry
> guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take a mackerel to keep
me
> out
> of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in even if it seems crappie
to
>
> some. Let's hear from some of 

A Fish by any other name would smell as sweet... Was RE: RE: Fish paper

[Gregg Kervill]

Just to cause a minor spin to this thread - We used a thin card (about
0.01")that we called Elephant Hide.

G



-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
wo...@sensormatic.com
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 7:57 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: RE: Fish paper



I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm having a whale of a time.

Richard Woods



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RE: IEC 60950-1 released

[Pettit, Ghery]

Looks like someone will have to bite the bullet and buy a copy...

Ghery Pettit
Intel

-Original Message-
From: Momcilovic, Nick [mailto:nikola.momcilo...@qtiworld.com]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:15 AM
To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: IEC 60950-1 released



This is all I could find on the IEC website:

"This first edition of IEC 60950-1 (10-01) cancels and replaces the third
edition of IEC 60950, issued in 1999, and constitutes a technical revision"

Sincerely,

Nick Momcilovic
Product Safety Coordinator
Engineering Technical Services

QTI
N64W23110 Main Street
Sussex, WI 53089-5301
USA

Phone:  +1-414-566-7915
Fax:  +1-414-566-9576
mailto:nick.momcilo...@qtiworld.com
http://www.qtiworld.com


-Original Message-
From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:25 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: IEC 60950-1 released



Safety folks,

The safety standard IEC 60950-1 (Information technology equipment - Safety -
Part 1: General requirements) was released by IEC on October 25th 2001.

Is this a new version of the existing IEC60950:1999 ?

Best regards
Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway



-Opprinnelig melding-
Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av Dan Kwok
Sendt: 14. oktober 2001 20:35
Til: Andrea Bishop; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Emne: Re: 2 GHz Amplifiers



Does anyone have an idea on when the cessation date for EN 300-339 will be
once EN 301-498 V1.3.1 becomes harmonized?


- Original Message -
From: "Andrea Bishop" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:22 AM
Subject: FW: 2 GHz Amplifiers


>
> ETSI EN 301 489-1 V 1.3.1 was formally published by ETSI on 26 September
> 2001 and is therefore no longer Final Draft.
>
> According the the ETSI work programme, it was delivered to the Commission
on
> 27 September and is due to be cited in the Official Journal on 31 October.
> It will then be a harmonised standard.
>
> regards
>
> Andrea Bishop
> TUV Product Service Ltd
> Fareham, Hants



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IEC International Electrotechnical Vocabulary (IEV)

[POWELL, DOUG]

This is great the IEV is now online and freely accessible: 
 
 http://domino.iec.ch/iev/iev.nsf/Welcome/

Those guys on the TCs will need to be even more careful now that I can
figure out what they mean by that certain word they used...


-doug

---
Douglas E. Powell, Compliance Engineer
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
Mail stop: 203024
1626 Sharp Point Drive
Ft. Collins, CO 80525

970.407.6410 (phone)
970-407.5410 (fax)
mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
---


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RE: IEC 60950-1 released

[Momcilovic, Nick]

This is all I could find on the IEC website:

"This first edition of IEC 60950-1 (10-01) cancels and replaces the third
edition of IEC 60950, issued in 1999, and constitutes a technical revision"

Sincerely,

Nick Momcilovic
Product Safety Coordinator
Engineering Technical Services

QTI
N64W23110 Main Street
Sussex, WI 53089-5301
USA

Phone:  +1-414-566-7915
Fax:  +1-414-566-9576
mailto:nick.momcilo...@qtiworld.com
http://www.qtiworld.com


-Original Message-
From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:25 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: IEC 60950-1 released



Safety folks,

The safety standard IEC 60950-1 (Information technology equipment - Safety -
Part 1: General requirements) was released by IEC on October 25th 2001.

Is this a new version of the existing IEC60950:1999 ?

Best regards
Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway



-Opprinnelig melding-
Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av Dan Kwok
Sendt: 14. oktober 2001 20:35
Til: Andrea Bishop; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Emne: Re: 2 GHz Amplifiers



Does anyone have an idea on when the cessation date for EN 300-339 will be
once EN 301-498 V1.3.1 becomes harmonized?


- Original Message -
From: "Andrea Bishop" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:22 AM
Subject: FW: 2 GHz Amplifiers


>
> ETSI EN 301 489-1 V 1.3.1 was formally published by ETSI on 26 September
> 2001 and is therefore no longer Final Draft.
>
> According the the ETSI work programme, it was delivered to the Commission
on
> 27 September and is due to be cited in the Official Journal on 31 October.
> It will then be a harmonised standard.
>
> regards
>
> Andrea Bishop
> TUV Product Service Ltd
> Fareham, Hants



---
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RE: FDA

[John Juhasz]

How about trying the basics, definitions:

FDA  = Food & Drug Administration
FCC = Federal Communications Commission

I think that's a pretty good indication of the differences.

John Juhasz
Fiber Options
Bohemia, NY

-Original Message-
From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:43 AM
To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: FDA



The very basic difference is that the FDA are safety related and the FCC EMC
related.

Both have very comprehensive websites

http://www.fda.gov/

http://www.fcc.gov/

Regards

Chris Colgan
Compliance Engineer
TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
The Summit, Latham Road
Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
*Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627
*Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159
* Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com
* http://www.tagmclaren.com


> -Original Message-
> From: am...@westin-emission.no [SMTP:am...@westin-emission.no]
> Sent: 26 October 2001 10:15
> To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  FDA
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> What is the basic differences between FDA and FCC ? Don't laugh, yes I
> know
> it is a silly question, but if you want to certify medical equipment, are
> the requirements covered in the FDA or in the FCC regulations ?
> 
> As you understand, within this field, I'm a really novice ...
> 
> Best regards
> Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
> 
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> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old
> messages are imported into the new server.


**  
   Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com
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TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
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Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600)
Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159)

**  
   Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com
**

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RE: FDA

[Ned Devine]

Hi,

In the USA, it is the FDA.  For most medical products, the FDA determines
that your product is Substantially Equivalent to a legally marketed device.
This is the FDA 510(k) process.  They issue you a letter that allows you to
legally market the device.

For EMC, the FDA usually wants to see that you comply with IEC 60601-1-2.  

Ned


Ned Devine
Program Manager III
Entela, Inc.
3033 Madison Ave. SE
Grand Rapids, MI  49548

616 248 9671 Phone
616 574 9752 Fax
ndev...@entela.com  e-mail





-Original Message-
From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:15 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: FDA



Hi all,

What is the basic differences between FDA and FCC ? Don't laugh, yes I know
it is a silly question, but if you want to certify medical equipment, are
the requirements covered in the FDA or in the FCC regulations ?

As you understand, within this field, I'm a really novice ...

Best regards
Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway



---
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RE: FDA

[Colgan, Chris]

The very basic difference is that the FDA are safety related and the FCC EMC
related.

Both have very comprehensive websites

http://www.fda.gov/

http://www.fcc.gov/

Regards

Chris Colgan
Compliance Engineer
TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
The Summit, Latham Road
Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
*Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627
*Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159
* Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com
* http://www.tagmclaren.com


> -Original Message-
> From: am...@westin-emission.no [SMTP:am...@westin-emission.no]
> Sent: 26 October 2001 10:15
> To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  FDA
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> What is the basic differences between FDA and FCC ? Don't laugh, yes I
> know
> it is a silly question, but if you want to certify medical equipment, are
> the requirements covered in the FDA or in the FCC regulations ?
> 
> As you understand, within this field, I'm a really novice ...
> 
> Best regards
> Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
> 
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
>  majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
>  unsubscribe emc-pstc
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
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>  Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old
> messages are imported into the new server.


**  
   Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com
**

The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive
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otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail.

TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
The Summit, 11 Latham Road
Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600)
Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159)

**  
   Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com
**

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RE: RE: Fish paper

[Gary McInturff]

Okay,  I've pretty much Haddock! - I'm going to Ivars for fishpaper and
chips!
Gary

-Original Message-
From: peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com
[mailto:peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:36 AM
To: sco...@world.std.com; wo...@sensormatic.com
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re:RE: Fish paper 



Holy mackerel!  I hake to add to this thread but I really have to crab.
What
kind of grouper is this?  Deep down in my sole I belive Cod didn't intend
email
to be used for this kind of carp, its drum.  I think its a pain in the bass
and
its giving me a haddock.  Please cut it trout, if for no other reason then
just
for the halibut.

Just kidding, a little humor is nice to see.

Reply Separator
Subject:RE: Fish paper 
Author: "Scott Lacey" 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date:   10/25/01 7:13 PM

RE: Fish paperSorry guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take a
mackerel to keep me out of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in
even if it seems crappie to some. Let's hear from some of those who just
perch here walleye'm in the mood for it. Otherwise the rest of us will wind
up in a pickerel.

Scott Lacey
  -Original Message-
  From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of wo...@sensormatic.com
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:17 PM
  To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject: RE: Fish paper


  Let's hear from others. Don't be squidish or shellfish and clam up on us.


  Sorry, the devil made me do it.

-Original Message-
From: Whitehouse, Terence (Terry) [mailto:twhiteho...@avaya.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:54 PM
To: 'Dan Teninty'; lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper


What a great grouper we are.  With snapper responses we don't flounder
around because - like Marlin Deitrich - we have got lots of sole.



This laughter therapy is recommended by the Sturgeon General; so let's
not change our tuna - there must be lots more to come.!


Terry W.
  -Original Message-
  From: Dan Teninty [mailto:dteni...@dtec-associates.com]
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:05 AM
  To: lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject: RE: Fish paper


  I smelt that coming :>)

  Dan

  DTEC Associates LLC
  http://www.dtec-associates.com
  Streamlining the Compliance Process
  5406 S. Glendora Drive
  Spokane, WA 99223
  (509) 443-0215
  (509) 443-0181 fax

-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of lcr...@tuvam.com
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:36 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper


I think you have Perch'ed your argument rather precariously. Walleye
understand where you are coming from, Salmon is sure to disagree with you.
Best reference the National Electrical Cod.   ;-)

Lauren Crane



-Original Message-
From: wmf...@aol.com [mailto:wmf...@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:04 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper




Of course; after its namesake, fish paper could be expected to be
hygroscopic. Or maybe someone just called it fish paper for the halibut.

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RE: Fish paper




Sorry 
guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take a mackerel to keep me
out 
of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in even if it seems crappie to

some. Let's hear from some of those who just perch here walleye'm in the
mood 
for it. Otherwise the rest of us will wind up in a
pickerel.
 
Scott 
Lacey

  -Original Message-From: 
  owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
  [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of 
  wo...@sensormatic.comSent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:17 
  PMTo: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.orgSubject: RE: Fish 
  paper

Re: SV: Aircrafts

[Ken Javor]

In the USA qualification of avionics to RTCA/DO-160 is required for type 
certification and it is type certification that must be achieved before
using equipment on a/c.  I expect that whereas in the US the FAA performs
this function, in Europe it is the JAA, and the  CE process has nothing to
do with it, as type certification antedates the CE mark concept.

--
>From: 
>To: 
>Subject: SV: Aircrafts
>Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001, 2:33 AM
>

>
> So, RTCA/DO-160 applies for US/Canada and I assume it is valid for many
> other countries worldwide.
>
> In Europe the EMC directive does not apply (ref EMC guidelines). But which
> relevant directives should be used in order to affix the CE-mark ? Only LVD
> if it is supplied with voltages within the scope of the directive ?
>
> Any proposals ?
>
> Amund
>
> -Opprinnelig melding-
> Fra: Dan Kwok [mailto:dk...@intetron.com]
> Sendt: 25. oktober 2001 20:05
> Til: am...@westin-emission.no; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Emne: Re: Aircrafts
>
>
> Amund,
>
> NAV Canada, formerly part of Transport Canada, which operates air navigation
> services, is a member of RTCA. Transport Canada also adopts RTCA/DO-160 for
> equipment aboard aircraft.
>
>
> -
> Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
> Principal Engineer
> Electromagnetic Compatibility
> Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
> Ph  (604) 432-9874
> E-mail dk...@intetron.com
> Internet  http://www.intetron.com
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:06 AM
> Subject: Aircrafts
>
>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Electrical equipment placed inside an aircraft (navigation equipment
>> installed in the cockpit), are they required to fulfil the CE-regulations
>> for use within EU? If yes, which directives apply ? EMC ? LVD ?
>>
>> What about in the US/Canada ? I have a feeling that RO-160D applies. Am I
>> right ?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Amund Westin
>
>>
>
>
>
> ---
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RE: skinny power cords.

[Kenneth McCormick]

I think the answer to the problem exists.  The 2002 version of the National 
Electric Code will require Arc Fault Interrupters in bedrooms.


See the link below from the CPSC for details.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/afci.html



From: "Colgan, Chris" 
Reply-To: "Colgan, Chris" 
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: skinny power cords.
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:51:20 +0100


I used to curse the size of our British BS1363 plugs and socket outlets.  I
won't be so hasty in the future.

Chris Colgan
Compliance Engineer
TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
The Summit, Latham Road
Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
*Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627
*Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159
* Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com
* http://www.tagmclaren.com


> -Original Message-
> From:  Dan Kwok [SMTP:dk...@intetron.com]
> Sent:  26 October 2001 00:10
> To:Robert Macy
> Cc:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:   Re: skinny power cords.
>
>
> Robert,
>
> It would seem this kind of problem may also happen without an extension
> cord. I know a fellow that used to unplug most of his appliances from
> the wall in anticipation of a lightning storm. I guess you can't be too
> careful.
>
> -
> Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
> Principal Engineer
> Electromagnetic Compatibility
> Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
> Ph  (604) 432-9874
> E-mail dk...@intetron.com
> Internet  http://www.intetron.com
>
>
>
> Robert Macy wrote:
> >
> > It definitely was not supplied by the heater company.  It was a high
> quality
> > UL approved cord.  It's just that this cord carbonized and burst into
> flame
> > as the arc was existing.  The flames did immediately extinguish when 
the

> arc
> > was stopped by unplugging the cord which is good.
> >
> > But again, it was disturbing that the 15A breaker provided no
> protection.
> >
> > Anyway, it was a good lesson for this "sleeping" guy.  Now I take
> electrical
> > distribution inside my home much more seriously.
> >
> >- Robert -
> >
> >Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
> >408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
> >AJM International Electronics Consultants
> >619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dan Kwok 
> > To: Robert Macy ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> > 
> > Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: skinny power cords.
> >
> > >
> > >Hi Robert,
> > >
> > >Recently, I bought several similar heaters for my home. I recall
> reading in
> > >the operation instructions, explicit safety warnings against using
> > extension
> > >cords with the heater. Was the extension cord supplied with the 
heater?

> > >
> > >
> > >-
> > >Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
> > >Principal Engineer
> > >Electromagnetic Compatibility
> > >Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
> > >Ph  (604) 432-9874
> > >E-mail dk...@intetron.com
> > >Internet  http://www.intetron.com
> > >
>
> ---
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**
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**

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TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
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**
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Re: FDA

[Ken Javor]

Not a dumb question at all, the FDA sets performance for medical equipment
and that includes EMC performance.  My understanding at the present time is
that requirements are a smorgasbord of commercial (CE/RE) and platform style
(CI/RI) requirements.  By platform I mean tests derived for equipments which
mount on metal vehicles with ground planes.  For instance I believe one CI
requirement is akin to MIL-STD-461E CS114, swept frequency bulk cable
injection.

--
>From: 
>To: 
>Subject: FDA
>Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001, 4:15 AM
>

>
> Hi all,
>
> What is the basic differences between FDA and FCC ? Don't laugh, yes I know
> it is a silly question, but if you want to certify medical equipment, are
> the requirements covered in the FDA or in the FCC regulations ?
>
> As you understand, within this field, I'm a really novice ...
>
> Best regards
> Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway
>
>
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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>
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RE: skinny power cords.

[WELLMAN,RON (A-PaloAlto,ex1)]

Hello all,

Earlier on in this thread it was eluded that this problem was leading to the
need of fused power plugs, similar to what is done in the UK. However, based
on the analyses of several people, I do not see how a fused plug would of
prevented the failure that Robert experienced.

Regards,
+=+
|Ronald R. Wellman|Voice : 408-345-8229   |
|Agilent Technologies |FAX   : 408-553-2412   |
|5301 Stevens Creek Blvd.,|E-Mail: ron_well...@agilent.com|
|Mailstop 54L-BB  |WWW   : http://www.agilent.com |
|Santa Clara, California 95052 USA|   |
+=+
| "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age   |
|  eighteen." - Albert Einstein   |
+=+

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IEC 60950-1 released

[amund]

Safety folks,

The safety standard IEC 60950-1 (Information technology equipment - Safety -
Part 1: General requirements) was released by IEC on October 25th 2001.

Is this a new version of the existing IEC60950:1999 ?

Best regards
Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway



-Opprinnelig melding-
Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av Dan Kwok
Sendt: 14. oktober 2001 20:35
Til: Andrea Bishop; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Emne: Re: 2 GHz Amplifiers



Does anyone have an idea on when the cessation date for EN 300-339 will be
once EN 301-498 V1.3.1 becomes harmonized?


- Original Message -
From: "Andrea Bishop" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:22 AM
Subject: FW: 2 GHz Amplifiers


>
> ETSI EN 301 489-1 V 1.3.1 was formally published by ETSI on 26 September
> 2001 and is therefore no longer Final Draft.
>
> According the the ETSI work programme, it was delivered to the Commission
on
> 27 September and is due to be cited in the Official Journal on 31 October.
> It will then be a harmonised standard.
>
> regards
>
> Andrea Bishop
> TUV Product Service Ltd
> Fareham, Hants



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Re: Safety warning symbols

[Art Michael]

Hi Nick,

A visit to the Safety Link  (and then a search with
your browser's "Find" function - Control F - in many cases - on the terms
"markings" or "symbols" will turn up links to at least 4 locations on the
net, including a functioning IEC site, the Cellotape site, the Hazcom
site, and another). I cannot vouch for the quality of the images.  Another
source for symbols is the "Patton & Associates" site, which can also be
found on the Safety Link.  Also, I believe there is an ANSI standard which
may be of use (but this is not likely to be found on the Net).

Best regards, Art Michael

Int'l Product Safety News
A.E. Michael, Editor
166 Congdon St. East
P.O. Box 1561 
Middletown CT 06457 U.S.A.

Phone  :  (860) 344-1651
Fax:  (860) 346-9066
Email  :  i...@safetylink.com
Website:  http://www.safetylink.com
ISSN   :  1040-7529
--
On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Nick Williams wrote:

> 
> Does anyone have, or know of a good source of, safety warning logos 
> for machinery and equipment in vector graphic format?
> 
> I'm thinking of things like logos to warn against things like 
> entanglement hazards, crushing, noise etc.
> 
> I don't mind paying for these if there is a resource which can 
> provide them in a format which will save me from having to re-draw 
> them.
> 
> I can handle and edit most graphic file formats for either PC or Mac 
> platforms. I specifically do not want scanned images since the 
> resolution is unlikely to be sufficient.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nick.
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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RE: Safety warning symbols

[James, Chris]

Design guide and Safety Labels at http://www.cellotape.com/

-Original Message-
From: wmf...@aol.com [mailto:wmf...@aol.com]
Sent: 26 October 2001 12:17
To: jwise...@printronix.com; nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk;
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Safety warning symbols



That site has been ineffective for several months. Anybody know of a free
alternative?

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Source of Compliance Label Icons

[Chris Maxwell]

All,

Check out www.cellotape.com  once in the website, go to their compliance
label design guide.  They have pdf's of about 100 different compliance
symbols; including compliance marks, warning symbols ...

I went there to get some information, thought it was worth sharing.

Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division
email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797
8024

NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA
web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | 




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RE: RE: Fish paper

[WOODS]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm having a whale of a time.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics


-Original Message-
From: peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com
[mailto:peter_denea...@atg.pacsci.com]
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:36 AM
To: sco...@world.std.com; wo...@sensormatic.com
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re:RE: Fish paper 


Holy mackerel!  I hake to add to this thread but I really have to crab.
What
kind of grouper is this?  Deep down in my sole I belive Cod didn't intend
email
to be used for this kind of carp, its drum.  I think its a pain in the bass
and
its giving me a haddock.  Please cut it trout, if for no other reason then
just
for the halibut.

Just kidding, a little humor is nice to see.

Reply Separator
Subject:RE: Fish paper 
Author: "Scott Lacey" 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date:   10/25/01 7:13 PM

RE: Fish paperSorry guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take a
mackerel to keep me out of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in
even if it seems crappie to some. Let's hear from some of those who just
perch here walleye'm in the mood for it. Otherwise the rest of us will wind
up in a pickerel.

Scott Lacey
  -Original Message-
  From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of wo...@sensormatic.com
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:17 PM
  To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject: RE: Fish paper


  Let's hear from others. Don't be squidish or shellfish and clam up on us.


  Sorry, the devil made me do it.

-Original Message-
From: Whitehouse, Terence (Terry) [mailto:twhiteho...@avaya.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:54 PM
To: 'Dan Teninty'; lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper


What a great grouper we are.  With snapper responses we don't flounder
around because - like Marlin Deitrich - we have got lots of sole.



This laughter therapy is recommended by the Sturgeon General; so let's
not change our tuna - there must be lots more to come.!


Terry W.
  -Original Message-
  From: Dan Teninty [mailto:dteni...@dtec-associates.com]
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:05 AM
  To: lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject: RE: Fish paper


  I smelt that coming :>)

  Dan

  DTEC Associates LLC
  http://www.dtec-associates.com
  Streamlining the Compliance Process
  5406 S. Glendora Drive
  Spokane, WA 99223
  (509) 443-0215
  (509) 443-0181 fax

-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of lcr...@tuvam.com
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:36 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper


I think you have Perch'ed your argument rather precariously. Walleye
understand where you are coming from, Salmon is sure to disagree with you.
Best reference the National Electrical Cod.   ;-)

Lauren Crane



-Original Message-
From: wmf...@aol.com [mailto:wmf...@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:04 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper




Of course; after its namesake, fish paper could be expected to be
hygroscopic. Or maybe someone just called it fish paper for the halibut.

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RE: Fish paper




Sorry 
guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take a mackerel to keep me
out 
of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in even if it seems crappie to

some. Let's hear from some of those who just perch here walleye'm in the
mood 
for it. Otherwise the rest of us will wind up in a
pickerel.
 
Scott 
Lacey

  -Original Message-From: 
  owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
  [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of 
  wo...@sensormatic.comSent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:17 
  PMTo: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.orgSubject: R

RE: Safety warning symbols

[WOODS]

Here is a place where you can buy them.

http://www.hazcomsys.com/

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics


-Original Message-
From: Nick Williams [mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:31 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Safety warning symbols



Does anyone have, or know of a good source of, safety warning logos 
for machinery and equipment in vector graphic format?

I'm thinking of things like logos to warn against things like 
entanglement hazards, crushing, noise etc.

I don't mind paying for these if there is a resource which can 
provide them in a format which will save me from having to re-draw 
them.

I can handle and edit most graphic file formats for either PC or Mac 
platforms. I specifically do not want scanned images since the 
resolution is unlikely to be sufficient.

Regards

Nick.

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EMI filter hazards

[WmFlan]

Many of us incorporate these little babies in our designs, and good design 
practices require their placement at the enclosure threshhold to prevent 
re-radiation. This sometimes means the filter is upstream of the/any mains 
switch or breaker.

In these cases, what can be done to mitigate the shock risk at the equipment 
plug for those first seconds after removal? We warn our customers at the mains 
terminals and in the manual, but, still


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RE: Safety warning symbols

[WmFlan]

That site has been ineffective for several months. Anybody know of a free 
alternative?

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Re:RE: Fish paper

[peter_deneault]

Holy mackerel!  I hake to add to this thread but I really have to crab.  What
kind of grouper is this?  Deep down in my sole I belive Cod didn't intend email
to be used for this kind of carp, its drum.  I think its a pain in the bass and
its giving me a haddock.  Please cut it trout, if for no other reason then just
for the halibut.

Just kidding, a little humor is nice to see.

Reply Separator
Subject:RE: Fish paper 
Author: "Scott Lacey" 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date:   10/25/01 7:13 PM

RE: Fish paperSorry guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take a
mackerel to keep me out of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in
even if it seems crappie to some. Let's hear from some of those who just
perch here walleye'm in the mood for it. Otherwise the rest of us will wind
up in a pickerel.

Scott Lacey
  -Original Message-
  From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of wo...@sensormatic.com
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:17 PM
  To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject: RE: Fish paper


  Let's hear from others. Don't be squidish or shellfish and clam up on us.


  Sorry, the devil made me do it.

-Original Message-
From: Whitehouse, Terence (Terry) [mailto:twhiteho...@avaya.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:54 PM
To: 'Dan Teninty'; lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper


What a great grouper we are.  With snapper responses we don't flounder
around because - like Marlin Deitrich - we have got lots of sole.



This laughter therapy is recommended by the Sturgeon General; so let's
not change our tuna - there must be lots more to come.!


Terry W.
  -Original Message-
  From: Dan Teninty [mailto:dteni...@dtec-associates.com]
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:05 AM
  To: lcr...@tuvam.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
  Subject: RE: Fish paper


  I smelt that coming :>)

  Dan

  DTEC Associates LLC
  http://www.dtec-associates.com
  Streamlining the Compliance Process
  5406 S. Glendora Drive
  Spokane, WA 99223
  (509) 443-0215
  (509) 443-0181 fax

-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of lcr...@tuvam.com
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:36 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper


I think you have Perch'ed your argument rather precariously. Walleye
understand where you are coming from, Salmon is sure to disagree with you.
Best reference the National Electrical Cod.   ;-)

Lauren Crane



-Original Message-
From: wmf...@aol.com [mailto:wmf...@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:04 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Fish paper




Of course; after its namesake, fish paper could be expected to be
hygroscopic. Or maybe someone just called it fish paper for the halibut.

---
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RE: Fish paper




Sorry 
guys, but, after monitoring this thread it would take a mackerel to keep me out 
of it. I can't bass up an opportunity to join in even if it seems crappie to 
some. Let's hear from some of those who just perch here walleye'm in the mood 
for it. Otherwise the rest of us will wind up in a pickerel.
 
Scott 
Lacey

  -Original Message-From: 
  owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
  [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of 
  wo...@sensormatic.comSent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:17 
  PMTo: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.orgSubject: RE: Fish 
  paper
  Let's hear from others. Don't be squidish or 
  shellfish and clam up on us.
   
   
  Sorry, the devil made me do it.
   
  
-Original Message-From: Whitehouse, Terence 
(Terry) [mailto:twhiteho...@avaya.com]Sent: Thursday, October 25,

2001 3:54 PMTo: 'Dan Teninty'; lcr...@tuvam.com; 
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.orgSub

FDA

[amund]

Hi all,

What is the basic differences between FDA and FCC ? Don't laugh, yes I know
it is a silly question, but if you want to certify medical equipment, are
the requirements covered in the FDA or in the FCC regulations ?

As you understand, within this field, I'm a really novice ...

Best regards
Amund Westin, Oslo/Norway



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RE: skinny power cords.

[Colgan, Chris]

I used to curse the size of our British BS1363 plugs and socket outlets.  I
won't be so hasty in the future.

Chris Colgan
Compliance Engineer
TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
The Summit, Latham Road
Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
*Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627
*Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159
* Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com
* http://www.tagmclaren.com


> -Original Message-
> From: Dan Kwok [SMTP:dk...@intetron.com]
> Sent: 26 October 2001 00:10
> To:   Robert Macy
> Cc:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  Re: skinny power cords.
> 
> 
> Robert,
> 
> It would seem this kind of problem may also happen without an extension
> cord. I know a fellow that used to unplug most of his appliances from
> the wall in anticipation of a lightning storm. I guess you can't be too
> careful.
> 
> -
> Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
> Principal Engineer
> Electromagnetic Compatibility
> Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
> Ph  (604) 432-9874
> E-mail dk...@intetron.com
> Internet  http://www.intetron.com
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Macy wrote:
> > 
> > It definitely was not supplied by the heater company.  It was a high
> quality
> > UL approved cord.  It's just that this cord carbonized and burst into
> flame
> > as the arc was existing.  The flames did immediately extinguish when the
> arc
> > was stopped by unplugging the cord which is good.
> > 
> > But again, it was disturbing that the 15A breaker provided no
> protection.
> > 
> > Anyway, it was a good lesson for this "sleeping" guy.  Now I take
> electrical
> > distribution inside my home much more seriously.
> > 
> >- Robert -
> > 
> >Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
> >408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
> >AJM International Electronics Consultants
> >619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dan Kwok 
> > To: Robert Macy ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> > 
> > Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: skinny power cords.
> > 
> > >
> > >Hi Robert,
> > >
> > >Recently, I bought several similar heaters for my home. I recall
> reading in
> > >the operation instructions, explicit safety warnings against using
> > extension
> > >cords with the heater. Was the extension cord supplied with the heater?
> > >
> > >
> > >-
> > >Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
> > >Principal Engineer
> > >Electromagnetic Compatibility
> > >Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
> > >Ph  (604) 432-9874
> > >E-mail dk...@intetron.com
> > >Internet  http://www.intetron.com
> > >
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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**  
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TAG McLaren Audio Ltd
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Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU
Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600)
Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159)

**  
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RE: skinny power cords.

[Crabb, John]

"Far be it from me to criticize" UL Listed products,
or UL standards, but it seems to me that the plug in
question was not "suitable for its intended use".

I can recall conducting a humidity test on one of our
products, and at the conclusion of the test, it failed
a dielectric test, and I traced the failure to a
UL Listed or Recognized plug, where the insulating 
material which carried the pins appeared to be little 
more than layers of compressed paper !! 

Regards,
John Crabb, Development Excellence (Product Safety) , 
NCR  Financial Solutions Group Ltd.,  Kingsway West, Dundee, Scotland. DD2
3XX
E-Mail :john.cr...@scotland.ncr.com
Tel: +44 (0)1382-592289  (direct ). Fax +44 (0)1382-622243.   VoicePlus
6-341-2289.



-Original Message-
From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com]
Sent: 25 October 2001 22:11
To: jack.c...@cax.usa.xerox.com
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: skinny power cords.






Hi Jack:


>   I'm having a problem with Rich's explanation in this particular case (I
know
>   it's often true, though).  How did resisitive heating occur *without*
>   current flow?  It was clearly stated that the heater was switched OFF.

I believe that the process I described takes a 
lot of time.  It starts when the heater is first
used, i.e., a heavy current through the plug and
socket.  The heating due to the contact resistance
degrades the material between the blades of the 
plug due to pyrolysis, the decomposition of a 
material by heat alone.

The decomposition results in unknown materials 
between the blades.  Plastics are carbon-based. 
Decomposition of carbon-based materials tends to
reduce the size of the molecule, and the material
approaches pure carbon, a resistor.

So, we can assume that these unknown materials 
are resistive.  We will have a leakage current 
through the resistance.  

Once the leakage path is established, the heater 
does not need to be on for the process to continue.

Since this isn't a "good" resistance, some elements
will open, and micro-arcs will occur.  These micro-
arcs create new resistances, and the leakage current
will continue to increase.  And the arcs get bigger.

Etc.

I could be wrong...


Best regards,
Rich




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SV: Aircrafts

[amund]

So, RTCA/DO-160 applies for US/Canada and I assume it is valid for many
other countries worldwide.

In Europe the EMC directive does not apply (ref EMC guidelines). But which
relevant directives should be used in order to affix the CE-mark ? Only LVD
if it is supplied with voltages within the scope of the directive ?

Any proposals ?

Amund

-Opprinnelig melding-
Fra: Dan Kwok [mailto:dk...@intetron.com]
Sendt: 25. oktober 2001 20:05
Til: am...@westin-emission.no; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Emne: Re: Aircrafts


Amund,

NAV Canada, formerly part of Transport Canada, which operates air navigation
services, is a member of RTCA. Transport Canada also adopts RTCA/DO-160 for
equipment aboard aircraft.


-
Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
Principal Engineer
Electromagnetic Compatibility
Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
Ph  (604) 432-9874
E-mail dk...@intetron.com
Internet  http://www.intetron.com



- Original Message -
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:06 AM
Subject: Aircrafts


>
> Hi all,
>
> Electrical equipment placed inside an aircraft (navigation equipment
> installed in the cockpit), are they required to fulfil the CE-regulations
> for use within EU? If yes, which directives apply ? EMC ? LVD ?
>
> What about in the US/Canada ? I have a feeling that RO-160D applies. Am I
> right ?
>
> Best regards
> Amund Westin

>



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Re: Shrunk-die power MOSFET's and compliance

[Michael Heckrotte]

I worked with power MOSFETs in the past and found that the reverse
recovery characteristics (soft versus abrupt) correlated with emissions,
but we could not derive a quantitative acceptance criteria.  Vendors
could easily specify and sort by reverse recovery time, but that was a
different parameter, and was inadequately related to emisions levels. 

Technically the best solution was to test and approve FETs by batch
number, based on the measured emissions of a sample product.

  

"Cook, Jack" wrote:
> 
> The practice of die shrinking & speedups causes problems in the digital IC
> arena also.  The old but once heavily used 8051 processor is an example.
> Original designs were with the NMOS (HMOS?) version but later began being
> replaced by faster CMOS versions.  We could see some of that clearly in
> certain product audits.
> 
> Jack Cook,
> Xerox EMC Engineering
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Dan Kwok [mailto:dk...@intetron.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:16 PM
> To: Jim Eichner; 'EMC-PSTC - forum'
> Subject: Re: Shrunk-die power MOSFET's and compliance
> 
> Jim,
> 
> You have my sympathies. Some manufacturers don't seem to realize that their
> so called product "improvements" may actually cause undue grief and
> hardships
> on their customers. "Specifications subject to change without notice" is a
> common catch clause associated with far many products on the market these
> days.
> 
> In one company where I worked many years ago, we had an incoming inspection
> department that routinely carried out random samplings and measured critical
> parameters for crystals and semiconductors. With this approach, most
> out-of-spec devices simply did not make it to the store bins.
> 
> On the brighter side, speeding up a FET is hard to do. Slowing it down in a
> circuit is much easier for EMC purposes.
> 
> -
> Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
> Principal Engineer
> Electromagnetic Compatibility
> Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
> Ph  (604) 432-9874
> E-mail dk...@intetron.com
> Internet  http://www.intetron.com
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jim Eichner" 
> To: ; "Jim Eichner" ;
> "'EMC-PSTC - forum'" 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:54 AM
> Subject: RE: Shrunk-die power MOSFET's and compliance
> 
> >
> > Well for example, I have just finished specifying what compliance
> re-testing
> > I am going to need to do on 4 different products whose power conversion
> > stages use IRF630's, IRF740's, IRF840's, and RFP50N06's, but the list goes
> > on and on.  If you are using power FET's in power electronics, chances are
> > they have changed or will soon.  The main manufacturers that come to mind
> > are IR, Fairchild/Harris, Philips, and STM-Thomson.  Not all have forced
> > changes to the shrunk-die version - some have agreed to keep the old style
> > available - and all have at least added a suffix to their markings on the
> > devices so you can tell if it's the new revision die or old.  In one case,
> > however, we received modified parts with no markings differentiating them
> > from the old rev parts, for almost a year with no communication from the
> mfr
> > telling us about the change.  We found out through other channels and then
> > contacted them.  They seem to be behaving as if fundamental changes to the
> > performance and specifications of the part are none of our business.
> >
> > I am re-doing radiated and conducted emissions, some thermal testing, and
> a
> > bunch of functional testing and looking at waveforms on 4 different
> products
> > affected by this change.  Those are only the products I am responsible
> for -
> > as a company we're doing functional testing and possibly compliance
> > re-testing on many more products.
> >
> > This is not a simple component substitution exercise, if your products are
> > or use power electronics!  I would advise everyone potentially affected to
> > have your procurement department look into this.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Jim Eichner, P.Eng.
> > Manager, Engineering Services
> > Xantrex Technology Inc.
> > Mobile Power
> > web: www.xantrex.com 
> > Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
> > exists. Honest.
> >
> >
> >
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
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Re: DC voltage ratings

[Dave Heald]

Peter,
  You are correct and thanks for the clarification.  In my defense,
allow me to point out my use of the word 'can' in my statement.  Back to
your clarification - I know that some (and not all as you correctly
point out) European telcos use 60Vdc(72 charging).  The rest to the best
of my knowledge use 48.  Your comment on German and Austrian locations
does ring a bell but I am unsure what countries these voltages are used
in or if it is carrier dependant and only networks owned by certain
carriers have the higher voltages.  I ran into these requirements back
when I worked for an NRTL as many of my clients were Boston area
networking companies with large distributions of products.  Alas, as I
was not part of the individual companies, I often did not hear where the
products were to be shipped.

I figured that if someone was selling to Europe, they might as well plan
for the worst case.  Why exclude installation in some of the richest
nations in the world?

Best regards,
Dave Heald

Peter Tarver wrote:
> 
> Dave -
> 
> Perhaps I was misinformed, but it was my understanding that
> 70V battery was not panEuropean, but is specific to Germany
> and Austria, and then not necessarily ubiquitous in those
> countries.
> 
> I'd appreciate your expanding on this.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter L. Tarver, PE
> Product Safety Manager
> Sanmina Homologation Services
> peter.tar...@sanmina.com
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Dave Heald
> >
> > Bruce,
> >
> 
> > snip <
> 
> > If you want to ship to Europe, the nominal
> > voltage can be -60Vdc.  Here
> > it gets tricky as charging voltages are typically
> > 72Vdc.
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
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RE: skinny power cords.

[robertj]

This subject of reliance on branch circuit protection for loads has been
discussed for a long time and involves a lot of  historical tradition
and code and standards activities. The following is my understanding
based on some code committee activities, but I have not researched this
historically.

You will generally find two kinds of faults which need protection,
overloads and short circuits. Overloads are generally faults in an
operating product which provide moderate increases in the load. Short
circuits may occur between supply conductors or to ground and involve
very high currents.

The branch circuit protection provides overload and short protection for
the branch circuit wiring. The overcurrent is sized to prevent
overheating of any branch circuit wiring on either a low current long
term or high current short term basis. In some cases you will find
breakers which have inductive trip for shorts and thermal trip for
overloads.

Appliances and the associated cords are expected to be protected by
product design. Traditionally we have been able to rely on the branch
protection for shorts (which are high current and should trip the branch
overcurrent protection). For overloads, internal protection is provided
such as additional smaller overcurrent protection, impedance protection,
fault testing, etc.

In the US the traditional sizing means a cord as small as 18 AWG could
be used, since it would usually trip a 15 or 20 amp circuit when
shorted. An exception was shaver (tinsel) cords which typically opened
under fault and were attended. 

As has been mentioned in this thread, these basic ideas did not always
work as planned. For example, loose connections will often overheat
connectors, carbonizing the plastics and resulting in a resistive heat
which over time ignites. Short circuits are often high impedance, either
because few wire strands are involved or because an arc is involved.
Extension cords were overloaded.

It turns out circuit breaker curves sometimes permitted an arc to melt
the copper and blow the circuit open, sometimes repeatedly, without
tripping. Fuses were much more responsive in this case.

Gradual improvements have been seen in codes and standards. For example,
smaller gauge extension cords and outlet strips now have overcurrent
protection. Arc fault breakers have been introduced to detect and open
wiring shorts. Breaker curves have been readjusted. Recent code cycles
have considered introducing plug located overcurrent as Britain has
done. Ground fault interrupters have also played a part in reducing
ignition faults.

Experience with these improvements will be considered as future code and
standard changes are proposed.

Bob Johnson




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RE: MIL-STD for crimped terminals on wires?

[Price, Ed]

>-Original Message-
>From: Scott Lacey [mailto:sco...@world.std.com]
>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:16 PM
>To: emc-p...@ieee.org
>Subject: MIL-STD for crimped terminals on wires?
>
>
>
>
>To the group,
>
>Hopefully someone can tell me number of the MIL-STD ocument for crimped
>connections on wires? Even better if they referenced the web 
>site where the
>standard could be downloaded.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Scott Lacey


Scott:

Try the free DAPS site at:

http://astimage.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/

and look for MS20659K for terminals, lug, crimped. You can find a lot of
specs on the crimping tools, like QPL-22520 & Mil-T-83508. Maybe these tool
specs also call out crimping procedures.

Regards,

Ed



Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis


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Re: skinny power cords.

[Dan Kwok]

Scott,

Defective cords have been around long before someone got the idea to
manufacture them offshore. How would you be able to tell, without using
the "Hershey" criteria, if a power cord is any good? 

Dan Kwok


Scott Lacey wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> It seems that some of the "offshore" manufactured cords are molded from
> melted Hershey bars! I am always very careful who I buy my cords from.
> 
> Scott Lacey
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Jim Eichner
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:40 PM
> Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: skinny power cords.
> 
> Thanks Rich:  I suspect you're right. Isn't that mechanism exactly what the
> tracking index tests are meant to address?  I thought that any UL-approved
> wiring device like this would have a material that is designed to resist
> tracking, hence my speculation that contamination might be involved.
> 
> I guess there are a few more comments to be made here...
> 
> 1. From what I know, the tracking index tests are horribly non-repeatable
> and are therefore somewhat meaningless.
> 
> 2. The standards for plug caps and for multi-taps may not refer to UL746 and
> may not have any of their own requirements for tracking index of insulation.
> 
> 3. We could take this as evidence that even compliance with the tracking
> index requirements doesn't prevent carbonization of the material where
> there's a high temperature heat source involved.
> 
> There are lots of people who unplug anything they are not actively using. I
> guess it's not such a paranoid practice!
> 
> Regards,
> Jim Eichner, P.Eng.
> Manager, Engineering Services
> Xantrex Technology Inc.
> Mobile Power
> web: www.xantrex.com 
> Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
> exists. Honest.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Rich Nute [mailto:ri...@sdd.hp.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:14 PM
> To: jim.eich...@xantrex.com
> Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: skinny power cords.
> 
> Hi Jim:
> 
> >   I'm curious:  given that North American plug blades are >1/2" apart,
> there
> >   must have been substantial contamination to aid in 120Vac jumping that
> far
> >   (arcing).  Did you identify any sort of contamination or moisture?
> 
> I don't believe contamination is a significant factor
> in events such as this one.
> 
> I believe such events start with a loose connection
> between the plug and the socket (or between the wire
> and the socket parts).  A loose connection means
> that the contact area is relatively small.  In turn,
> this means high current density at the point of
> contact.
> 
> The smaller the contact area, the greater the
> resistance of the contact.
> 
> The smaller the contact area, the greater the current
> density at the point of contact.
> 
> These two factors contribute to heating of the two
> parts, the plug blade and the socket.  Heating tends
> to reduce the "springiness" of the socket part, and
> of the connection between the supply wire and the
> socket (because they are thermally connected).
> 
> The heating also tends to degrade the surface of the
> insulating material in which the conductors are mounted.
> 
> Heating also enhances oxidation of the plating on the
> parts, which further increases the resistance of the
> connections.
> 
> If the plug-connected appliance is "ON," arcing can
> occur as the parts expand due to heating and make
> various intermittant connections.  Arc temperatures
> are very high, and can "burn" the surface of nearby
> insulating materials via radiation.
> 
> As the surface degrades, leakages occur across the
> surfaces.  At this point, whether or not the appliance
> is on or even connected is not a factor.  There is a
> current path between the two poles along the surface
> of the insulator.  This can either be between the
> socket parts, or between the wired parts.  The leakage
> current causes further heating and micro-arcs where
> the leakage path opens due to current density.  The
> micro-arcs further damage the insulator until there
> is nearly continuous micro-arcing.  I suggest this
> is the source of the noise.  The heat from the micro-
> arcing and the resistance of the carbonized surface
> of the insulator eventually lead to ignition and
> flames.
> 
> I admit that this is a hypothesis.  I believe that
> the process is more-or-less correct, but the details
> may not be correct.
> 
> Best regards,
> Rich
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
> 
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> 
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>  Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson

Re: 120V Ground Faults

[Robert Macy]

Michael,

The arcing was between hot and neutral.  GFCI outlets would have made no
difference.

- Robert -

   Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
   408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
   AJM International Electronics Consultants
   619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112

-Original Message-
From: michael.garret...@radisys.com 
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
Cc: Robert Macy 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:52 PM
Subject: 120V Ground Faults


>
>Robert,
>
>>From my experience,  I think you will find that arcing ground faults are
>inherently high-resistance in nature and, while dramatic, do not
>necessarily pull significant amounts of current.  Most 15 amp breakers will
>likely require several seconds/minutes to blow at 60/30 amps, which is what
>you'd get with a 2/4 ohm arc.  In reality, I wouldn't be surprised to see
>something more like a 10-20 ohm figure being used for this type of
>phenomenon, which would allow a 15 amp breaker to arc virtually
>continuously (i.e. the home arc-welder).  The fact that arcs are drawn -
>and sustained - at 120 volts is, I believe, relatively rare.
>
>Higher voltage systems (and GFCI outlets) have ground fault systems that
>rely on the detection of zero sequence (neutral leakage) currents.  My
>understanding is that the decision to require this type of protection on
>480 volt systems over 1200 amps was largely due to the increased likelihood
>they'd be able to draw and sustain an arc, as well as the damage that can
>be caused at these higher power levels (balanced with the concerns of
>cost-effectiveness of installing them more broadly).  I feel they drew the
>line in an appropriate place.
>
>In my experience, while problems, such as this, do arise, the frequency and
>relative damage caused by them is relatively small.  I think you would have
>seen a change (like the addition of GFCI about 25 years ago) if the case
>were otherwise.  You should be able to add zero sequence current sensing to
>your household panel, should you care to do so, for ~$500, but where
>out-of-the-box systems exist for 480 volt systems, this would need to be a
>custom design amploying the combination of a sensor relay and a shunt-trip
>breaker.  Of course any nuisance trips you may experience similar to your
>GFCI would take down your main You can buy a LOT of GFCI breakers for
>these dollars.  Caveat Emptor/Engineer.
>
>Regards,
>
>Michael Garretson
>Compliance Engineering Manager
>RadiSys Corporation
>+1 503 615-1227
>
>
>
>"Robert Macy"
> To: "Dan Kwok"
, 
>Sent by:  cc:
>owner-emc-pstc@majordom   Subject: Re: skinny
power cords.
>o.ieee.org
>
>
>10/25/01 02:36 PM
>Please respond to
>"Robert Macy"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>It definitely was not supplied by the heater company.  It was a high
>quality
>UL approved cord.  It's just that this cord carbonized and burst into flame
>as the arc was existing.  The flames did immediately extinguish when the
>arc
>was stopped by unplugging the cord which is good.
>
>But again, it was disturbing that the 15A breaker provided no protection.
>
>Anyway, it was a good lesson for this "sleeping" guy.  Now I take
>electrical
>distribution inside my home much more seriously.
>
>   - Robert -
>
>   Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
>   408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
>   AJM International Electronics Consultants
>   619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Dan Kwok 
>To: Robert Macy ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>
>Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:42 PM
>Subject: Re: skinny power cords.
>
>
>>
>>Hi Robert,
>>
>>Recently, I bought several similar heaters for my home. I recall reading
>in
>>the operation instructions, explicit safety warnings against using
>extension
>>cords with the heater. Was the extension cord supplied with the heater?
>>
>>
>>-
>>Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
>>Principal Engineer
>>Electromagnetic Compatibility
>>Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
>>Ph  (604) 432-9874
>>E-mail dk...@intetron.com
>>Internet  http://www.intetron.com
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Robert Macy" 
>>To: "Roman, Dan" ; 
>>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:49 AM
>>Subject: Re: skinny power cords.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Just have to jump in here with personal experience:
>>>
>>> In our bedroom we have a deLonghi radiator heater which uses an
>extension
>>> cord (high cost UL approved) heavy guage #12 wire to power it - when
>it's
>>> used.  This extension cord plugs into a "multi outlet" adapter, also
>heavy
>>> duty UL approved.  At the time of the incident there was no power being
>>used
>>> from this outlet.
>>>
>>> I wa

120V Ground Faults

[Michael . Garretson]

Robert,

>From my experience,  I think you will find that arcing ground faults are
inherently high-resistance in nature and, while dramatic, do not
necessarily pull significant amounts of current.  Most 15 amp breakers will
likely require several seconds/minutes to blow at 60/30 amps, which is what
you'd get with a 2/4 ohm arc.  In reality, I wouldn't be surprised to see
something more like a 10-20 ohm figure being used for this type of
phenomenon, which would allow a 15 amp breaker to arc virtually
continuously (i.e. the home arc-welder).  The fact that arcs are drawn -
and sustained - at 120 volts is, I believe, relatively rare.

Higher voltage systems (and GFCI outlets) have ground fault systems that
rely on the detection of zero sequence (neutral leakage) currents.  My
understanding is that the decision to require this type of protection on
480 volt systems over 1200 amps was largely due to the increased likelihood
they'd be able to draw and sustain an arc, as well as the damage that can
be caused at these higher power levels (balanced with the concerns of
cost-effectiveness of installing them more broadly).  I feel they drew the
line in an appropriate place.

In my experience, while problems, such as this, do arise, the frequency and
relative damage caused by them is relatively small.  I think you would have
seen a change (like the addition of GFCI about 25 years ago) if the case
were otherwise.  You should be able to add zero sequence current sensing to
your household panel, should you care to do so, for ~$500, but where
out-of-the-box systems exist for 480 volt systems, this would need to be a
custom design amploying the combination of a sensor relay and a shunt-trip
breaker.  Of course any nuisance trips you may experience similar to your
GFCI would take down your main You can buy a LOT of GFCI breakers for
these dollars.  Caveat Emptor/Engineer.

Regards,

Michael Garretson
Compliance Engineering Manager
RadiSys Corporation
+1 503 615-1227




"Robert Macy"   

 To: "Dan Kwok" 
, 
Sent by:  cc:   

owner-emc-pstc@majordom   Subject: Re: skinny power 
cords.  
o.ieee.org  





10/25/01 02:36 PM   

Please respond to   

"Robert Macy"   










It definitely was not supplied by the heater company.  It was a high
quality
UL approved cord.  It's just that this cord carbonized and burst into flame
as the arc was existing.  The flames did immediately extinguish when the
arc
was stopped by unplugging the cord which is good.

But again, it was disturbing that the 15A breaker provided no protection.

Anyway, it was a good lesson for this "sleeping" guy.  Now I take
electrical
distribution inside my home much more seriously.

   - Robert -

   Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
   408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
   AJM International Electronics Consultants
   619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112

-Original Message-
From: Dan Kwok 
To: Robert Macy ; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org

List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: skinny power cords.


>
>Hi Robert,
>
>Recently, I bought several similar heaters for my home. I recall reading
in
>the operation instructions, explicit safety warnings against using
extension
>cords with the heater. Was the extension cord supplied with the heater?
>
>
>-
>Dan Kwok,  P.Eng.
>Principal Engineer
>Electromagnetic Compatibility
>Intetron Consulting,  Inc.
>Ph  (604) 432-9874
>E-mail dk...@intetron.com
>Internet  http://www.intetron.com
>
>-