Re: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??

[Chris Wells]

Robert - thanks for the response
The 6% SS is for ESD control not for clasic shielding.
But even with this low amount I have common mode capacitive coupling problems 
between it and my PCBs.
If I bond the PCBs to the housing the problem is significantly reduced.
And so my quest into bonding the PCB to the plastic.
 
Even with this low amount it has made the PC plastic brittle.
I would think that the mechanical properties of 35% would be nasty.
What is the base plastic and are they SS fibers?

As to plating there are two platings here - 
1) I  think you are talking about plating the plastic - yeah that sounds like a 
mess on many levels but I was thinking about the plating touching the PCB 
mounts and not the screw to plated plastic barrier.
2) My main question was the plating of the screw - We presently use clear zinc 
plated steel screws and I suspect that that is not good.  I am looking at 
stainless steel screws.

Inserts 
I have heard that ultrasonicly welding or heat pressing will give a good 
electrical connection and releave the mechanical stress relative to a press in.
Others have said that the brass and the SS fibers are not compatible and SS 
inserts expensive.

The housing is a faceplate for a membrane keypad that is panel mounted.
Only the edge frame is exposed to the user.
We have a rough surface on it and that controls the looks pretty well - so no 
paint.
One down side of the bare plastic is that the fibers come off in your skin if 
you rub it sort of like fiberglass.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Robert Wilson 
  To: Chris Wells ; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group 
  Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 12:32 PM
  Subject: RE: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??


  The problem you are encountering is made somewhat more difficult by the very 
low amount of metal in the polycarbonate resin. Reasonable shielding generally 
requires higher than 20% metal in the mix (35% is not uncommon).

   

  But to answer your questions:

   

   - The type of screw is relatively unimportant. Any screw that cuts into the 
plastic matrix, and gets through the insulating resin "skin" that forms on the 
surface as a very thin insulating layer, and makes a "pressure" contact with 
the stainless matrix will do nicely.

   - The material the screw is made from is also not particularly relevant from 
an electrical contact standpoint. Anything will do as well as anything else (at 
least initially). But in the long haul, a stainless screw is preferred since 
there will be no galvanic mismatch to cause a corrosion couple. Any plating is 
NOT a good idea since it will be cut through when the screw is inserted, and 
your contacts to the stainless fibers will be made mainly to the bared metal 
substrate of the screw.

   - The larger the screw the better. There is very little stainless steel in 
your mix, and you need to maximize tour contact area (or use more stainless 
filler).

   - Conductive liquids and pastes are useless in this application. They cannot 
make significant contact with the metal fibers because there is a microns-thick 
layer of pure polycarbonate resin on the surface of the plastic (to say nothing 
about other things like mold release).

   - Molded-in inserts are not reliable. You need to make a gas-tight metal to 
metal connection, and for this you need mechanical pressure.

   -You also must remember that the polycarbonate resin itself (like any 
polymer) is NOT gas tight, and NOT hermetic. It allows gaseous diffusion over 
time, and thus any internal connection between a screw and the stainless fiber 
matrix, must be gas tight (i.e. a high pressure connection) to ensure 
reliability. Interestingly, a significant mode of conduction BETWEEN fibers is 
by electron tunneling through the ultra thin layer of resin that separates them.

   

  But as a general comment, I suggest you use a polycarbonate blend with a more 
reasonable amount of stainless fiber. This will obviously improve your 
shielding, but more importantly it will dramatically improve your contact 
reliability. Better still, is to use long strand stainless as a filler, which 
has far better shielding characteristics than finely chopped stainless (if you 
are not already doing so).

   

  Do you need to paint the plastic as a result of the stainless content? 
Generally, the surface finish of metal fiber-loaded resin is rather ugly, 
necessitating a final painting for aesthetics. If this is so in your case, then 
you really ought to consider forgetting about using stainless filler altogether 
and instead selectively electroless plating the inside instead of painting the 
outside. This will result on FAR better shielding, and a better looking 
product. Conductive paints such as Spraylat's non-corroding copper, on the 
inside will also result in one or two orders of magnitude better level of 
shielding than the low level of stainless fiber content you are using.

   

  Bob Wilson 
  TIR Systems Ltd. 
  Vancouver. 

  -Original M

RE: Shielded High current cable

[Robert Wilson]

Are those rather irrational "AWG" sizes even recognized by TÜV or VDE? Most of 
the rest of the world hasn't a clue what they mean. 

Bob Wilson
TIR Systems Ltd.
Vancouver.

-Original Message-
From: Anchondo, Dan [mailto:danch...@ciena.com] 
Sent: June 3, 2002 11:15 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Shielded High current cable


All
Can anyone point me to a vendor that makes shielded power cable?  We require
wire that is 2 gauge, DC, 200 amps, normal flexibility, shielded,105 degree
C, VW-1,UL,CSA,TUV,VDE certs.  
Dan Anchondo
Ciena CSD




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RE: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??

[Gary McInturff]

Here is a very interesting web site put out by a vendor, but it addresses an 
awful lot of the issues we are discussing.
http://www.enthone.com/
 
Gary
-Original Message-
From: Robert Wilson [mailto:robert_wil...@tirsys.com]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 9:01 AM
To: Jim Conrad; Chris Wells; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: RE: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??


The first of your suggestions will not work with the material Chris is using. 
Any polymer that has conductive material mixed in, tends to form a thin skin of 
pure resin at its surface. A conductive paint or epoxy applied to the surface 
will not come in contact with the metal strands, and all you will mainly get is 
capacitive coupling.
 
Further, applying a silver-loaded epoxy to the surface of most metals 
(including stainless steel) will not penetrate that material's natural oxide 
layer and hence (unlike what most people I've talked to seem to think) will NOT 
produce a reliable electrical connection, even when applied directly to the 
metal. A reliable electrical connection to any metal requires that one must cut 
through the metal's oxide layer. Thus, your second suggestion is more workable, 
although he is basically using these already (the plastic screws he refers to 
are very similar to sheet metal screws).
 
Bob Wilson 
TIR Systems Ltd. 
Vancouver. 
-Original Message-
From: Jim Conrad [mailto:jc...@shore.net] 
Sent: June 2, 2002 4:34 AM
To: Chris Wells; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: RE: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??
 
Hi Chris,
 
I would try a Silver loaded conductive epoxy or use SS self tapping screws.  
 

Jim
 
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Chris Wells
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 10:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Chris Wells   
 
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group   
Cc: christopherdwe...@eaton.com 
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??
 
Recently we had a good string going on conductive platics.
I would appreciate some help coming up with the ideal electrical bond to this 
type of plastic.
 
We use a 6% Stainless Steel Fiber mix in Poly carbonate and I was looking for 
the best method to electrically bond to the plastic to drain off ESD or for 
high frequency bonding with the metal portion of our product.  This would 
include Printed Circuit Board to plastic, Cable to plastic and metal housing to 
plastic type connections.
For joining metal housing and PCB connections we have been using plastic screws 
that mechanically are designed for plastic. 
The threads are widely spaced, tall and thin - They cut into the plastic with 
out breaking the mounting bosses (studs).  
The engagement with the plastic (screw thread in plastic boss hole) is ~ 100% 
leaving little or no air gap between the screw and the plastic.
 
First set of Question - 
If using screws what would be the best type of screw to insure good contact to 
the stainless steel fibers?
*   High profile, thin thread, plastic screw like I described? 
*   Self tapping type screw?
 
What should the platting be?
*   Clear Zinc 
*   Zinc Chromate? 
*   Nickle on brass? 
*   Stainless Steel?
 
Is there any sort of liquid/paste like adative that could be added to the screw 
hole to enhance the electrical connection?
 
We have experimented with metal inserts (PEM nut brand for example).
What sort of bonding does one get when molded in?  I suspect poor relative to 
press in.
Can the inserts be plain brass or should they be plated like with nickle?
Depth of inserts - Longer inserts should be better but I am concerned about 
cracking of the boss.
 
Screen matterial in the screw boss.
I have seen screen matterial embedded in conductive plastic.
Perhaps it could help screws bond to the plastic as well.
Any comments?  Sounds messy.
 
Coatings on top of conductive plastic?
If a coating were placed on the inner surface of the conductive plastic it 
might make a good hybrid sollution but costly.
 
Are there other considerations?
If you respond today try CC to 
christopherdwe...@eaton.com
So I get it at work too (the ITE guys can't handle this subscription list at 
work)
This group is the best resource I have for this sort of topic - thanks in 
advance!!
 
Chris Wells
Senior Design Engineer
Cutler-Hammer
Pittsburgh, Pa. USA
christopherdwe...@eaton.com
 
 
 

Re: Family Tree of EMC/EMI/ESD Standards

[John Barnes]

John,
The dates that I give in the introduction to each web page are for the
family of standards as a whole.  So 

   "EN 61000-3-2 (16 SEP 1995 to ???) Europe"

is my shorthand for:
*  EN 61000-3-2:2000 +Amendment A1:2001, not published in the Official 
   Journal of the European Community (OJ) yet;
*  EN 61000-3-2:2000, published in the 9 MAR 2002 OJ with no replacement
   named yet (hence the "to ???");
*  EN 61000-3-2:1995 +Amendment A1:1998 +Amendment A2:1998 +Amendment 
   A14:2000, published in the 14 DEC 2000 OJ, and good through 1 JAN 
   2004;
*  EN 61000-3-2:1995 +Amendment A1:1998 +Amendment A2:1998, published
   in the 27 FEB 1999 OJ and also good through 1 JAN 2004.
*  EN 61000-3-2:1995 +Amendment A1:1998, published in the 27 FEB 1999
   OJ and withdrawn 1 JAN 2001.
*  EN 61000-3-2:1995 +Amendment A13:1997, published in the 3 APR 1999
   OJ and withdrawn 1 JAN 2001.
*  EN 61000-3-2:1995, published in the 16 SEP 1995 OJ and withdrawn
   1 JAN 2001 (hence the "16 SEP 1995 to").

So the little blurb "(16 SEP 1995 to ???) tells us that since 16 SEP
1995, and for the foreseeable future, we need to satisfy some version of
the EN 61000-3-2 harmonics standard to sell most electronic equipment
into Europe.

Whereas an entry like "EN 50082-2 (16 SEP 1995 to 1 APR 2002) Europe"
tells us that if:
1.  We have a product that was verified/certified to EN 50082-2:1995,
   AND
2.  Its Declaration of Conformity has not been updated since then,
   THAT
we may be in trouble with European Customs if we try shipping any more
units into Europe without taking some kind of action...

Thank you for your comments!

John Barnes
dBi Corporation

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Shielded High current cable

[Anchondo, Dan]

All
Can anyone point me to a vendor that makes shielded power cable?  We require
wire that is 2 gauge, DC, 200 amps, normal flexibility, shielded,105 degree
C, VW-1,UL,CSA,TUV,VDE certs.  
Dan Anchondo
Ciena CSD




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Hall-Effect Sensors and the Automotive Industry

[Greilich, Jeff]

Et Al:

I am soliciting information regarding EMC standards that pertain to
testing "Hall-Effect Sensors" for Safety Restraint Systems in the
Automotive market. Anyone familiar with these specifications written or
being written by any of the "Big 3" are invited to contact me directly.

Sincerely,

Jeffrey W. Greilich
EMC Technical Manager
TAKATA Automotive Systems Laboratory, Inc.
27200 Haggerty Road, Suite B-12
Farmington Hills, MI 48331
(248) 848-2771 (Office)



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RE: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??

[Robert Wilson]

The problem you are encountering is made somewhat more difficult by the
very low amount of metal in the polycarbonate resin. Reasonable
shielding generally requires higher than 20% metal in the mix (35% is
not uncommon).
 
But to answer your questions:
 
 - The type of screw is relatively unimportant. Any screw that cuts into
the plastic matrix, and gets through the insulating resin "skin" that
forms on the surface as a very thin insulating layer, and makes a
"pressure" contact with the stainless matrix will do nicely.
 - The material the screw is made from is also not particularly relevant
from an electrical contact standpoint. Anything will do as well as
anything else (at least initially). But in the long haul, a stainless
screw is preferred since there will be no galvanic mismatch to cause a
corrosion couple. Any plating is NOT a good idea since it will be cut
through when the screw is inserted, and your contacts to the stainless
fibers will be made mainly to the bared metal substrate of the screw.
 - The larger the screw the better. There is very little stainless steel
in your mix, and you need to maximize tour contact area (or use more
stainless filler).
 - Conductive liquids and pastes are useless in this application. They
cannot make significant contact with the metal fibers because there is a
microns-thick layer of pure polycarbonate resin on the surface of the
plastic (to say nothing about other things like mold release).
 - Molded-in inserts are not reliable. You need to make a gas-tight
metal to metal connection, and for this you need mechanical pressure.
 -You also must remember that the polycarbonate resin itself (like any
polymer) is NOT gas tight, and NOT hermetic. It allows gaseous diffusion
over time, and thus any internal connection between a screw and the
stainless fiber matrix, must be gas tight (i.e. a high pressure
connection) to ensure reliability. Interestingly, a significant mode of
conduction BETWEEN fibers is by electron tunneling through the ultra
thin layer of resin that separates them.
 
But as a general comment, I suggest you use a polycarbonate blend with a
more reasonable amount of stainless fiber. This will obviously improve
your shielding, but more importantly it will dramatically improve your
contact reliability. Better still, is to use long strand stainless as a
filler, which has far better shielding characteristics than finely
chopped stainless (if you are not already doing so).
 
Do you need to paint the plastic as a result of the stainless content?
Generally, the surface finish of metal fiber-loaded resin is rather
ugly, necessitating a final painting for aesthetics. If this is so in
your case, then you really ought to consider forgetting about using
stainless filler altogether and instead selectively electroless plating
the inside instead of painting the outside. This will result on FAR
better shielding, and a better looking product. Conductive paints such
as Spraylat's non-corroding copper, on the inside will also result in
one or two orders of magnitude better level of shielding than the low
level of stainless fiber content you are using.
 
Bob Wilson 
TIR Systems Ltd. 
Vancouver. 
-Original Message-
From: Chris Wells [mailto:cdwe...@stargate.net] 
Sent: May 31, 2002 7:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Chris Wells   
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
  
Cc: christopherdwe...@eaton.com 
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??
 
Recently we had a good string going on conductive platics.
I would appreciate some help coming up with the ideal electrical
bond to this type of plastic.
 
We use a 6% Stainless Steel Fiber mix in Poly carbonate and I
was looking for the best method to electrically bond to the plastic to
drain off ESD or for high frequency bonding with the metal portion of
our product.  This would include Printed Circuit Board to plastic, Cable
to plastic and metal housing to plastic type connections.
For joining metal housing and PCB connections we have been using
plastic screws that mechanically are designed for plastic. 
The threads are widely spaced, tall and thin - They cut into the
plastic with out breaking the mounting bosses (studs).  
The engagement with the plastic (screw thread in plastic boss
hole) is ~ 100% leaving little or no air gap between the screw and the
plastic.
 
First set of Question - 
If using screws what would be the best type of screw to insure
good contact to the stainless steel fibers?
*   High profile, thin thread, plastic screw like I described? 
*   Self tapping type screw?
 
What should the platting be?
*   Clear Zinc 
*   Zinc Chrom

RE: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??

[Robert Wilson]

The first of your suggestions will not work with the material Chris is
using. Any polymer that has conductive material mixed in, tends to form
a thin skin of pure resin at its surface. A conductive paint or epoxy
applied to the surface will not come in contact with the metal strands,
and all you will mainly get is capacitive coupling.
 
Further, applying a silver-loaded epoxy to the surface of most metals
(including stainless steel) will not penetrate that material's natural
oxide layer and hence (unlike what most people I've talked to seem to
think) will NOT produce a reliable electrical connection, even when
applied directly to the metal. A reliable electrical connection to any
metal requires that one must cut through the metal's oxide layer. Thus,
your second suggestion is more workable, although he is basically using
these already (the plastic screws he refers to are very similar to sheet
metal screws).
 
Bob Wilson 
TIR Systems Ltd. 
Vancouver. 
-Original Message-
From: Jim Conrad [mailto:jc...@shore.net] 
Sent: June 2, 2002 4:34 AM
To: Chris Wells; EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: RE: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??
 
Hi Chris,
 
I would try a Silver loaded conductive epoxy or use SS self tapping
screws.  
 
Jim
 
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Chris Wells
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 10:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group
Subject: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Chris Wells   
 
To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group   
Cc: christopherdwe...@eaton.com 
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 8:07 AM
Subject: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??
 
Recently we had a good string going on conductive platics.
I would appreciate some help coming up with the ideal electrical bond to
this type of plastic.
 
We use a 6% Stainless Steel Fiber mix in Poly carbonate and I was
looking for the best method to electrically bond to the plastic to drain
off ESD or for high frequency bonding with the metal portion of our
product.  This would include Printed Circuit Board to plastic, Cable to
plastic and metal housing to plastic type connections.
For joining metal housing and PCB connections we have been using plastic
screws that mechanically are designed for plastic. 
The threads are widely spaced, tall and thin - They cut into the plastic
with out breaking the mounting bosses (studs).  
The engagement with the plastic (screw thread in plastic boss hole) is ~
100% leaving little or no air gap between the screw and the plastic.
 
First set of Question - 
If using screws what would be the best type of screw to insure good
contact to the stainless steel fibers?
*   High profile, thin thread, plastic screw like I described? 
*   Self tapping type screw?
 
What should the platting be?
*   Clear Zinc 
*   Zinc Chromate? 
*   Nickle on brass? 
*   Stainless Steel?
 
Is there any sort of liquid/paste like adative that could be added to
the screw hole to enhance the electrical connection?
 
We have experimented with metal inserts (PEM nut brand for example).
What sort of bonding does one get when molded in?  I suspect poor
relative to press in.
Can the inserts be plain brass or should they be plated like with
nickle?
Depth of inserts - Longer inserts should be better but I am concerned
about cracking of the boss.
 
Screen matterial in the screw boss.
I have seen screen matterial embedded in conductive plastic.
Perhaps it could help screws bond to the plastic as well.
Any comments?  Sounds messy.
 
Coatings on top of conductive plastic?
If a coating were placed on the inner surface of the conductive plastic
it might make a good hybrid sollution but costly.
 
Are there other considerations?
If you respond today try CC to 
christopherdwe...@eaton.com
So I get it at work too (the ITE guys can't handle this subscription
list at work)
This group is the best resource I have for this sort of topic - thanks
in advance!!
 
Chris Wells
Senior Design Engineer
Cutler-Hammer
Pittsburgh, Pa. USA
christopherdwe...@eaton.com
 
 
 

RE: Family Tree of EMC/EMI/ESD Standards

[Dan Kinney (A)]

John,
This looks like a good site.  I have noticed one point you should be aware
of.  EN61000-4-2 is listed with Amendment 1 only.  Amendment 2 came out in
2001 and has some significant changes.

As I go through you site, I'll send whatever comments I have to you
directly.
Dan


> -Original Message-
> From: John Barnes [SMTP:jrbar...@iglou.com]
> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 12:09 PM
> To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  Family Tree of EMC/EMI/ESD Standards
> 
> 
> I've just put a "family tree" of EMC/EMI/ESD standards for information
> technology equipment (ITE) and related (generic) products on our company
> web site at
> http://www.dbicorporation.com/standard.htm
> 
> This came out to 15 web pages, totalling about 200KB of HTML.
> 
> Please look it over.  I would appreciate any comments, corrections,
> additions, or suggestions for improvements that you may have.
> 
> Thanks!
>   John Barnes
>   dBi Corporation
>   jrbar...@iglou.com
> 
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
> 
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
> 
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>  majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line:
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> 
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> 
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>  Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
> 
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CSA approval - radio equipment

[amund]

Hi all,

A radio transmitter/receiver shall be approved for the Canadian marked. The
product is powered by 28VDC, but it needs an external power supply (AC-DC).


Questions:
1. The CSA safety requirements, do they cover products which are powered by
28VDC?
2. If no, is it possible to pick a CSA approved power supply and therefore
be spared from any testing ?
3. If yes, will it in this case just be a paper-certification-job ?


Best regards
Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway



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RE: Bonding to conductive plastic - best method??

[Wan Juang Foo]

Dear all,
Seen it in the shell of my old notebook.  It looks like embedded brass
stands forced into moulded holes.  These fasteners have tinny gear
(sprocket like teeth) on the outer rims and a centre treaded hole.  It
ought to be custom designed for the purpose of maintaining conduction.

:-)

Tim Foo





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Family Tree of EMC/EMI/ESD Standards

[John Barnes]

I've just put a "family tree" of EMC/EMI/ESD standards for information
technology equipment (ITE) and related (generic) products on our company
web site at
http://www.dbicorporation.com/standard.htm

This came out to 15 web pages, totalling about 200KB of HTML.

Please look it over.  I would appreciate any comments, corrections,
additions, or suggestions for improvements that you may have.

Thanks!
John Barnes
dBi Corporation
jrbar...@iglou.com

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