Re: Shieled ethernet cables in Germany

2003-02-21 Thread neve...@attbi.com

To my knowledge, only when the Class B for Central-Office equipment has to be 
met.

Neven 
 
 Hello Group,
 
 I heard recently that shielded Ethernet cables have become something of
 a customer-expectation-based defacto standard in Germany for
 installation of network type ITE equipment (routers, switches,
 firewalls, etc.)  Can anyone confirm or comment on that.  Is it like
 that anywhere else?
 
 Thanks
 
 George Stults
 WatchGuard Technologies Inc.
 
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Shieled ethernet cables in Germany

2003-02-21 Thread George Stults

Hello Group,

I heard recently that shielded Ethernet cables have become something of
a customer-expectation-based defacto standard in Germany for
installation of network type ITE equipment (routers, switches,
firewalls, etc.)  Can anyone confirm or comment on that.  Is it like
that anywhere else?

Thanks

George Stults
WatchGuard Technologies Inc.


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Safety Requrement for wireless component in vehicle.

2003-02-21 Thread Cheng-Wee Lai

Dear All,

Automotive safety is not my field but I have come across this device that
are maybe some of you can give me some input.

This device (small black box) is an add on device that tap into vehicle
signal wire, so information like braking, turning signaling, can be sent
wirelessly to the back of the trailer without pulling wire to the back. The
question is that are there any vehicle safety standard guarding this kind of
device.

My primary concern is the reliability of the signal get to the taillight,
which could become a hazard if taillight fail to interpret signal on time
and correctly.

Thanks,
Cheng-Wee Lai





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TV Interface Devices - Lower Sideband and the -4.6MHz limits

2003-02-21 Thread Aschenberg, Mat
Hello,

Why does the FCC limit the signal from a TV interface device? In particular, I
find the out of band requirements are peculiar. (below -4.6MHz, and above
+7.4Mhz)

The FCC requires a transfer switch that switches between the generated signal,
like a VCR, and the over-the air signals. 

When the switch is set to the VCR output, there aren't any other signals to
interfere with. The system is closed.  

Is there a historical or functional reason for limiting these signals? 

Thanks, 

Mat


FCC part 15.115 extract: 

(2)  At any RF output terminal, the maximum measured RMS voltage, in
microvolts, corresponding to the peak envelope power of the modulated signal
during maximum amplitude peaks across a resistance (R in ohms) matching the
rated output impedance of the TV interface device, of any emission appearing
on frequencies removed by more than 4.6 MHz below or 7.4 MHz above the video
carrier frequency on which the TV interface device is operated shall not
exceed the following:

ii)  For all other TV interface devices, 10.95 times the
square root of (R).





Blower Motor w/ European approval

2003-02-21 Thread brian_ku...@leco.com

We use a UL and CSA blower motor (230Volt 50/60hz) in one of our Instruments
(Lab Equipment).  We want to get the CE marking on this product so we are
looking for a drop in replacement motor that would have a European Safety
agency
approval.

The current motor is a standard blower motor like the ones used in a bathroom
ventilator. I'm having a hard time finding one with a European approval.  

If anyone knows of a US source for such a motor, please email me at the address
below.

Thank you,
Brian Kunde
LECO Corp.

brian_ku...@leco.com




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Re: 13.56 MHz

2003-02-21 Thread Frank Krozel

Why this frequency?  What is special about it?
Frank
Frank Krozel, Technical Representative
Voice: 630-924-1600
Fax: 630-924-1668
Cell: 630-890-5421 24/7 hours
Home: 630-653-9090
Electronic Instrument Associates-Central, Inc.
website: http://www.electronicinstrument.com

Serving the Midwest since 1971 with Electrical Engineers

Join the IEEE today, look to http://www.ieee.org for details

From: drcuthbert drcuthb...@micron.com
To: richwo...@tycoint.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: Japan  13.56 MHz



 Richard,
 is the proposed increase to support magnetic field signaling, such as in
automobiles?

Dave Cuthbert

 -Original Message-
 From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
 Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:30 AM
 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
 Subject: Japan  13.56 MHz



 Last year a Japan was considering raising the intentional emissions limit
at
 13.56 MHz for short range devices to match the ETSI/FCC limit of 42
dBuA/m.
 Does any one know if this proposal was adopted?

 Richard Woods
 Sensormatic Electronics
 Tyco International


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RE: RE02 cabling problem

2003-02-21 Thread drcuthbert

I completely agree with Ken Javor. Solid theory and solid conclusions.

   Dave Cuthbert


From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 4:53 PM
To: pwell...@csw.l-3com.com; 72146@compuserve.com; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: RE02 cabling problem



There is another implied concept of questionable validity in this latest
posting.  The way I read it, Mr. Wellington is talking about filtering
signals emanating from the support equipment as it passes through a bulkhead
between control and test chambers.  Such signals usually require no
filtering whatsoever, because if they have any bandwidth at all, they are
run with dedicated returns (such as a twisted pair or a twisted shielded
pair) and have no radiation efficiency to speak of. What requires filtering,
and what is ameliorated by proper PCB layout, as he alluded to in an earlier
post, is common mode emissions.  These can be filtered to a very high degree
with no impact on intentional signals.  Common fixes are snap on ferrite
beads and line-to-ground caps.  Clearly the line-to-ground caps should not
attenuate the desired signal, but in most if not all cases the undesired cm
current is orders of magnitude higher in frequency than the intentional
signal.  In those cases where this is not the case, the military would run
intentionally high frequency signals within shielded cables (think
MIL-STD-1553 and fibre channel) which, if properly terminated, will provide
all the protection necessary without resort to either filtering or
over-braids.  Specifically, if the support equipment or its environment
resulted in high frequency cm currents conducted on the outside of a
shielded cable, that cable should be terminated peripherally to a connector
at the bulkhead as it passes into the test chamber.  If the cable is not
shielded and the source is the ambient, then shielding of the cable external
to the test chamber is both proper and necessary, and has no effect on the
validity of the test set-up within the chamber.  Further, it requires no
input from the customer, because it does not affect the delivered product
configuration.  If the test support equipment itself is the cm source, then
any cm filtering necessary to attenuate those emissions before they enter
the test chamber is again proper and necessary, external to the test
chamber.  It might be said that such filtering could reduce cm currents
emanating from the test sample, but this is not a big problem for a couple
of reasons.  First it is easy to determine whether it is support equipment
or the test sample which is driving the currents, by sequentially
de-energizing suspected sources and noting the effect on the emissions.
Secondly, the standard effectively requires at least 3 meters of cabling
between test sample and bulkhead.  Above 10 MHz the cable is electrically
long and the effect of a filter at the bulkhead does not directly impact the
level of cm current on the cable, but only indirectly as its impedance is
transformed by the electrical length and distributed characteristic
impedance of the cable in question.  If the mil-std EMI test set-up were so
well-controlled that every test chamber and every test bench were of
precisely equal size and configuration and no matter where the test was
conducted the entire test set-up including cable layout were identical
within inches, then it might be productive to worry about changing a common
mode impedance at the end of a three meter cable.  In my experience, such is
hardly the case.




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RE: Japan 13.56 MHz

2003-02-21 Thread richwo...@tycoint.com

I just heard some more about this. The proposal was to implement the same
limits and spectrum mask as CEPT Recommendation 70-03 Annex 9 Figure 3
(inductive loop devices). I just heard from another source that it was
approved. Can anyone confirm this?

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


  -Original Message-
 From: WOODS, RICHARD  
 Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 8:30 AM
 To:   'emc-pstc'
 Subject:  Japan  13.56 MHz
 
 Last year a Japan was considering raising the intentional emissions limit
 at 13.56 MHz for short range devices to match the ETSI/FCC limit of 42
 dBuA/m. Does any one know if this proposal was adopted? 
 
 Richard Woods
 Sensormatic Electronics
 Tyco International
 


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RE: Japan 13.56 MHz

2003-02-21 Thread drcuthbert

Richard,
is the proposed increase to support magnetic field signaling, such as in
automobiles?

   Dave Cuthbert


From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:30 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Japan  13.56 MHz



Last year a Japan was considering raising the intentional emissions limit at
13.56 MHz for short range devices to match the ETSI/FCC limit of 42 dBuA/m.
Does any one know if this proposal was adopted? 

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International



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RE: RE02 cabling problem

2003-02-21 Thread Cortland Richmond

It's been a long time since I did military-style testing -- TEMPEST in the
1980's -- but it seemed to me then that no great care was taken to control
cable common-mode impedance. The environment INSIDE the chamber was as
unrealistic as one might care to get, and no attempt was made to control or
modify chamber resonances.  A reverberant chamber so dominates radiated
tests* conducted in it that deviation as a result of signal line filters
may be unnoticeable from one chamber to the next.  

Realistically, any filtering used has to conform to the requirements of the
signal being filtered, as would an actual installation.  This makes it
possible to use for testing. However... is use of filters in real-life
ruled out when testing has been done without them?  

The ideal filter would be, I  suppose, one whose impedance simulates in
both common and differential modes the infinite conductor of myth and
theory, with no signal reflected. This seems what the European absorbing
clamp attempts to provide, and might be useful here.  

*I've seen a reverberant chamber dominate _conducted_ tests, too. A Part 15
test had to be done outside.

Cortland


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Japan 13.56 MHz

2003-02-21 Thread richwo...@tycoint.com

Last year a Japan was considering raising the intentional emissions limit at
13.56 MHz for short range devices to match the ETSI/FCC limit of 42 dBuA/m.
Does any one know if this proposal was adopted? 

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International



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RE: IEC 61010 requirements

2003-02-21 Thread Jon Griver

Delphina,

It's not only an issue of intended use, but also a question of location. With
regard to the example 
you give, if a PC for the surgeon's urgent emails is located within the
'patient vicinity', as 
defined in IEC 60601-1-1 (within about 6 feet of the patient's bed), then I
believe that it should 
comply with IEC 60601-1, even though it's not a medical device.

The reasoning behind this is that the patient could possibly touch the PC
(that's the logic behind 
the 'patient vicinity' concept), and close a leakage current loop, together
with other medical 
instruments with which he is in contact. This could be particularly nasty if
there is a fault in 
the PC's earth wire.

Regards,

Jon Griver
http://www.601help.com
The Medical Device Developers Guide to IEC 60601-1


On 20 Feb 2003 at 12:38, Han, Delphina wrote:

 
 Hi all,
 
 Thanks for your responses. When I originally asked the question, I was sure
 that the particular equipment I was asking about does not fall under the
 scope IEC60601, but I wanted to confirm if IEC61010 is the relevant
 standard. As you may notice, I have a copy of the IEC60601 standard but not
 IEC61010! I also needed to find out if there were special requirements for
 isolation transformers in IEC61010. 
 
 From the discussion, it seems that which standard to comply with is
 dependent on the intended use, and not where the equipment is placed. So, if
 we put a PC in the hospital operating room, but it is just for the surgeon
 to let's say, check email (not practical...but this is just an example),
 would 60950 be the relevant standard? I doubt it'd have to meet 60601
 requirements.
 
 How about EMC standards? (maybe I should start a new thread...). Will this
 PC have to meet IEC 60601-1-2 for medical? Or EN 55022 for ITE? Bear in mind
 this is in the hospital operating room. I am familiar with medical equipment
 requirements but not so much with ITE, so forgive me if I'm making mistakes
 here.
 
 My thoughts are all from the regulatory point of view. Of course if the
 customer wants compliance with a more stringent requirement, that is what he
 gets...
 
 I appreciate all your thoughts/comments!
 
 -Delphina
   
 
  
  
 
  At 09:10 AM 2/19/2003 -0800, Han, Delphina wrote:
 
  Hi
  
  I am trying to find out safety requirements for devices that control and
  monitor equipment in a hospital lab (used for pathology). Does it fall
 under
  the IEC 61010 standard? If so, are there any requirements for use of
  isolation transformers in that standard?
  
  Thanks in advance for your response!
  
  -Delphina
  
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Re: Harmonics Testing for PCs

2003-02-21 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that Lesmeister, Glenn glenn.lesmeis...@hp.com
wrote (in 31891b757c09184bbfec5275f85d559502d1d...@cceexc18.americas.cp
qcorp.net) about 'Harmonics Testing for PCs' on Thu, 20 Feb 2003:

The problem with class A limits is that the higher your power draw, the lower 
your relative limits are.  As you get between 600 and 1000W, class D limits
can 
be higher than class A limits in which you might pass (depending on how bad
you 
were failing).  

Class D limits include maximum currents equal to the Class A limits, but
Clause 5 of the standard limits Class D to products with active input
power not exceeding 600 W. So you can't apply Class D limits above 600
W.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
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RE: About Radiated Measurements

2003-02-21 Thread Nagel, Michael

Muriel,

What is the size of the equipment the power supplies will fit into? Can this
be 
tested within you GTEM cell?

I would prefer to put cables and load into the GTEM cell. I am using a GTEM
cell 
for quite a while for pre-compliance testing and made good experiences.

There are - as already pointed out - some things to take care of:
 - Cables connected to the EUT exiting the GTEM cell and other cables with
in the cell 
   have a great influence on the result from their positioning within the
GTEM cell 
   and their filtering when going outside.
 - To get an impression of the relevance of your testing choose an EUT that
fits completely
   in your GTEM cell and conduct a comparative measurement on an OATS.
 - If you are doubting a result repaeat the test - I do not know what
parameters you are 
   using for a prescan - there are peaks which might occur due to a single
event when you
   do a peak measurement and others might not be there. The measurement time
has a great 
   influence on the recording of short time events (yawn, I know, but I
stress this point 
   as I forget it often myself :-| )

But - before you put it in - what is the maximum thermal load for an EUT
within your GTEM
cell?

Please excuse if I touched points that you already considered.

For a better testing repeatability of EUTs with many cables within GTEM
cells there are 
manipulator arms with cable guides. Schaffner is one of the manufacturers of
such things.

Best regards,
Michael Nagel

 -Original Message-
 From: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz [mailto:mur...@eel.ufsc.br]
 Sent: Donnerstag, 20. Februar 2003 19:52
 To: EMC-PSTC List
 Subject: About Radiated Measurements
 
 
 
 Group,
 
 I have a doubt concerning radiated emissions measurement:
 
 - For radiated emissions measurement of switched mode power 
 supplies using a
 TEM cell, should I leave the loads of the supply inside or outside the
 cell?? My TEM cell have filtered connections for DC loads.
 
 Thanks in advance for your help.
 
 Best Regards,
 
 Muriel
 
 
 
 
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RE: IEC 61010 requirements

2003-02-21 Thread John Allen

George

Strictly speaking, I suppose you are correct in saying that 60601-1-1 is for
medical electrical systems, but it also gives a good insight into the
rationales behind the need to apply the medical standards, or allow use of
equipment to non-medical standards.

Therefore, if you are trying to understand where the distinction comes, then
it can assist you in making a rationale and defensible decision on the
choice of the standards to apply. As far as I can judge it was created to a
large extent because of this confusion as to where to make that distinction,
and to allow the use of commercial equipment in those locations where it
is obviously safe enough.

By comparison, if you (or any one else for that matter!) can cast your mind
back some 20-25 years we were stuck (in the UK) with the infamous DHSS
Hospital Technical Memorandum No 8 (HTM8)which was intended to apply to
truely medical equipment but was often applied to anything in a hospital.
That was a b* of a standard - very prescriptive and impossible for
much non-medical equipment to meet (e.g. EVERY exposed metal part had to be
earthed to a heavy current withstand level, regardless of whether there was
any chance of it being energised under fault conditions or not - trying
earthing the stainless steel metal paper catcher frame for an old
line-printer to that requirement (almost impossible)!!). 

Therefore with the development of IEC601 (now 60601) the reins were loosened
a bit to allow the acceptance of commercial standards-compliant equipment
in some areas of medical facilities - that in turn lead to confusion as to
where the decision point lies. But seeing 60601-1-1 for the first time a few
years ago, it certainly made sense as a very useful guidance document for
the selection of the required compliance standard - regardless of whether or
not there was/is a medical system involved.

EMC, on the other hand, is an entirely different issue as radiated EM
effects can spread much further than the relatively short distances
envisaged in 60601-1-1, and thus compliance with medical EMC standards may
well be a requirement to ensure non-interference with the true medical
equipment near to where the non-medical equipment is located. That could be
a problem - which now appears to be addressed by another thread!

(And system reliability for safety reasons is another area which I am also
not going to get into here!)

Regards

John Allen





From: George Brimlow [mailto:george.brim...@nottingham.ac.uk]
Sent: 20 February 2003 17:40
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: IEC 61010 requirements



Hi,

In response to John Allen's comment, my understanding would be that the
medical electrical systems standard (60601-1-1) doesn't really help you
here.

This standard covers the situation where you have a system of either
interconnected electrical medical equipment or a mixed system of
interconnected electrical medical equipment and other equipment (e.g. IT).

The standard outlines additional measures that may be required for the
system to ensure that the patient safety is not impaired by the fact that
the electrical medical equipment (meeting 60601-1) is connected to
non-medical equipment (meeting e.g. 60950, 61010) or by the fact that the
non-medical equipment may be within the patient environment.

This is separate to the issue of whether an individual item of equipment is
classed as medical. The standard could be relevant though if your equipment
were required to be connected to medical equipment.

Hope that helps,

Regards,


-- 
Dr George Brimlow,
Principal Clinical Scientist
Medical Physics Dept
Queen's Medical Centre
Nottingham, NG7 2UH
UK
Tel. +44(0)115 924 9924 ext 44889
Fax  +44(0)115 942 2745
george.brim...@nottingham.ac.uk
 


  
 Hi Folks

 
 The basic answers to the questions of which items of medical equipment
 are, and are not, required to be compliant to 60601 are given in EN
 60601-1-1 Medical electrical equipment Part 1-1: General requirements for
 safety. Collateral standard: Safety requirements for medical electrical
 systems
 
 This describes the requirements and has diagrams to illustrate the various
 combinations of 60601 and non-60601 equipments.
 
 Regards
 
 John Allen
 -Original Message-

 From: Han, Delphina [mailto:d...@strykerendo.com]
 
 Hi
 
 I am trying to find out safety requirements for devices that control and
 monitor equipment in a hospital lab (used for pathology). Does it fall
under
 the IEC 61010 standard? If so, are there any requirements for use of
 isolation transformers in that standard?
 
 Thanks in advance for your response!
 
 -Delphina
 



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Re: Harmonics Testing for PCs

2003-02-21 Thread John Woodgate

I read in !emc-pstc that rbus...@es.com wrote (in B47A89AEC4538744B9D94
bad7e78efc7458...@torino.corp.es.com) about 'Harmonics Testing for PCs'
on Thu, 20 Feb 2003:

As for the limits, we are using A. I understand that D is used
exclusively for ITE and has tighter limits.

You said that the product:

 QUOTE
has essentially 6 rack mounted PCs and a custom designed graphics
processor. 
ENDQUOTE

If that isn't ITE, I don't know what is.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to 
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!


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Re: Temp chamber

2003-02-21 Thread Frank Krozel
Hi Dave,
Contact me (see below) I have a few test houses that perhaps can help him.
Frank
Frank Krozel, Technical Representative
Voice: 630-924-1600
Fax: 630-924-1668
Cell: 630-890-5421 24/7 hours
Home: 630-653-9090
Electronic Instrument Associates-Central, Inc.
website: http://www.electronicinstrument.com
 
Serving the Midwest since 1971 with Electrical Engineers
 
Join the IEEE today, look to http://www.ieee.org for details

- Original Message - 
From: Dave  mailto:davewilson...@yahoo.com Wilson 
To: emc-p...@ieee.org 
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 1:10 PM
Subject: Temp chamber


Hello Group,

An ex-colleague of mine is looking to use a temperature chamber for a short
time to do some tests, in the Bay Area. Anyone know of a way of doing this
without too much expense?

Thanks in advance,

Dave Wilson




  _  

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!  http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Tax
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RE: Temp chamber

2003-02-21 Thread Gary McInturff
I think Sanmenia ( sorry about the spelling or lack of it) is a local lab as
well, and they sit on this forum.
Gary


From: Sylvia Toma [mailto:st...@juniper.net]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 2:59 PM
To: Dave Wilson; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: Temp chamber


Hello Dave,
 
To name a few:
 
1.Quanta Laboratories
 
2.Wyle Laboratores 
 
3.Underwriters Laboratories (UL) 
 
These three lab. are all located in Santa Clara.
 
Sylvia


From: Dave Wilson [mailto:davewilson...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:11 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Temp chamber



Hello Group,

An ex-colleague of mine is looking to use a temperature chamber for a short
time to do some tests, in the Bay Area. Anyone know of a way of doing this
without too much expense?

Thanks in advance,

Dave Wilson




  _  

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo!  http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/ Tax
Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more




RE: Temp chamber

2003-02-21 Thread Han, Delphina


Dave,

We occasionally use Westpak in San Jose when our own chambers are full. The
web link is http://www.westpak.com/environment.htm

-Delphina


From: Dave Wilson [mailto:davewilson...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 11:11 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Temp chamber

Hello Group,
An ex-colleague of mine is looking to use a temperature chamber for a short
time to do some tests, in the Bay Area. Anyone know of a way of doing this
without too much expense?
Thanks in advance,
Dave Wilson


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more



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Re: (Fwd) RE: IEC 61010 requirements

2003-02-21 Thread Ronald R. Wellman

Hello Jon,

Thanks for the clarification. This helps in understanding which safety 
standards may be applied to a medical device based on its intended use. 
Therefore, it is very important that we understand what a medical device is 
versus medical equipment or laboratory equipment, as they are defined by 
regulatory authorities and standards development organizations. 
Unfortunately, we may use medical device and medical equipment 
interchangeably and unintentionally confuse people, just like I did.

Best regards,
Ron Wellman

At 06:58 PM 2/20/2003 +0200, Jon Griver wrote:

Ron,

Classification of in-vitro devices as medical equipment, requiring 
regulatory approval, does not
influence the choice of product safety standard to be used. If it does not 
fall within the scope of
IEC 60601-1, and is only used in the lab, then IEC 61010 should be used, 
though IEC 60950 would
probably be acceptable if the instrument is based on a PC.

Regards,

Jon Griver
http://www.601help.com
The Medical Device Developers Guide to IEC 60601-1


Hello Greg,

I have to disagree with your interpretation. There are many in vitro
devices that are classified as medical equipment and are subject to
pre-market approvals in the US, Japan, and EU. There are strict regulations
on labeling products in the US where even advertising is considered
labeling. It's not as simple as contacting a live human, there are many
other factors involved based on regulations and interpretations of
regulatory authorities.

Best regards,
Ron Wellman

At 11:15 PM 2/19/2003 -0500, Gregg Kervill wrote:

 Does it contact a live human - if answer no - it is not medical equipment.
 
 The purpose for the medical device directive is to protect people for harm
 or infection - being alive would seem to be essential for this.
 
 G
 
 
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