Re: Industry Silk Screen specification

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

I seem to remember there was a mil spec covering silk-screening. I think it
was part of front panel nomenclature. Perhaps in Mil E (or Mil S) 16400.

Fred Townsend

Denomme, Paul S. wrote: 

This may be bit a bit off topic for this group, but does anyone know of an
industry specification that dictates silk screen quality acceptability
standards as it may relate to sheet metal printing as well as printed circuit
board printing ?  I have done a lot of searching on the internet and I could
not find anything.  I went to global Engineering and performed a search and
although it listed several specifications, none of the specifications were
what I was looking for.
 
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
 
Paul Denomme
Viasystems
Richmond, VA

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Re: WEEE Directive

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

richhug...@aol.com wrote (in <9b.5cd86319.2f843...@aol.com>) about 'WEEE
Directive', on Tue, 5 Apr 2005:
>As interesting one this:
>
>- it is the Commission that propose (and in reality largely draft) EC
Directives in the first place.

Yes, but the two groups of politicians both arranged for their
posteriors to be protected. The Commission drafts Directives but the
Council of Ministers approves them, so shares the responsibility for any
that prove unworkable. And the third group, the Parliament, amends
drafts, so it, too, shares any blame.
>
>- it is the Commission that take Member States to task when they fail to
impliment Directives by the due date.
>
>When one Member State fails to implement a Directive then that MS looks to be
acting in a tardy way. But when multiple MSs fail to implement
>the same Directive then that draws into question as to whether the Directive
was really thought through before it was published in the OJEC.
>So who drafted the legislation in the first place and who decides whether to
prosecute

Is it surprising that some people think the whole thing is a nonsense?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk


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Industry Silk Screen specification

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

This may be bit a bit off topic for this group, but does anyone know of an
industry specification that dictates silk screen quality acceptability
standards as it may relate to sheet metal printing as well as printed circuit
board printing ?  I have done a lot of searching on the internet and I could
not find anything.  I went to global Engineering and performed a search and
although it listed several specifications, none of the specifications were
what I was looking for.
 
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
 
Paul Denomme
Viasystems
Richmond, VA

The information contained in this communication and its attachment(s) is
intended only for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed and may
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are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
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without retaining any copies. Thank you.
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Re: WEEE Directive

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

In a message dated 04/04/2005 18:59:44 GMT Standard Time, j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk
writes:

In theory, the Commission can take an errant government to the European 
Court, and it does happen in practice. But often, the Commission accepts 
that the deviation is justified or inevitable.
-- 

John,
 
As interesting one this:
 
- it is the Commission that propose (and in reality largely draft) EC
Directives in the first place.
 
- it is the Commission that take Member States to task when they fail to
impliment Directives by the due date.
 
When one Member State fails to implement a Directive then that MS looks to be
acting in a tardy way. But when multiple MSs fail to implement the same
Directive then that draws into question as to whether the Directive was really
thought through before it was published in the OJEC.  So who drafted the
legislation in the first place and who decides whether to prosecute?
 
Just a thought
 
Richard Hughes
 
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RE: UK Domestic Electrical Socket Outputs

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

Some of the 3 way adaptors which fit to an existing double are fused, thus
limiting them to 13A total.

 

I believe ring mains have max permitted length and or area coverage. The
current rating on a ring main should be able to be double that of the cable as
in essence you have two cables in parallel. Again I believe a ring wired in
2.5mm must have a 30A breaker.

 

Regards,

Chris

  _  

From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org 
mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Allen
Sent: 04 April 2005 18:02
To: Colgan, Christopher [Harman Pro Group UK]; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: UK Domestic Electrical Socket Outputs

 

Chris, Jim

 

Just taken a look at BS 1363-2: 1995, which is the part dealing with sockets -
the results are interesting!

 

Here are the most relevant bits (with an awful lot left out!)

 

13.12 "Multiple socket-outlets shall be capable of simultaneous use of all
socket-outlets"


16 Temperature rise
16.1 "Socket-outlets and their surroundings shall not attain excessive
temperatures in normal use."
16.1.1 "Compliance shall be checked by the tests described in 16.1.2, and
16.1.3 for fixed socket-outlets and portable socket-outlets respectively."

 

16.1.2
"……
The line, neutral and earth terminals of a single socket-outlet are connected
to an incoming and outgoing 2.5 mm2 2-core and earth PVC insulated and
sheathed cable as given in Table 5a of BS 6004:1991.

 

A twin unfused socket-outlet is connected with an incoming cable as described
above but with no
outgoing cable. 

 

A multiple unfused socket-outlet having more than two sets of socket contacts
is connected to an incoming 4 mm2 2-core and earth PVC insulated and sheathed
cable as given in Table 5a of BS 6004:1991. There shall be no outgoing cable.
…."

 

"Socket-outlets under test shall be subjected to electrical loading as given
in Table 5. "

...

 "

Table 5 — Loading of socket-outlets for temperature-rise test


Number of

outlets

Plugs with connected loads ± 0.4 A

Balance of load ± 0.4 A

Total load on supply cable (nominal)


1

1 × 14 A

6

20


2

1 × 14 A +

1 × 6 A



20


>1 (fused)

1 × 14 A

6

20


>2 (unfused)

2 × 14 A



28


NOTE The tolerance values for current take account of an uncertainty of
measurement of not greater than ± 1.5 % at a confidence level of not less
than 95 %.

" 

 

2.5sq mm cable is rated at 20A and is used for most domestic ring main and
spur circuits, whereas 4sq mm is rated at 28A and is often used for commercial
ring main and spur circuits (or so I believe).

 

So, it seems - quite logically - that the rating of the socket effectively
depends on the cable to which it is to be connected! Therefore it seems that
sockets intended for domestic purposes must be rated at a total load of 20A
(say 14A + 6A), whereas those for commercial circuits can be rated for a total
load of 26A (=2x 13A).

 

Thus you probably can both be said to be describing acceptable situations !  

 

This brought home to me something that I nearly did wrong recently when I
nearly fitted a triple 13A UNFUSED socket into an existing twin socket wall
box - I never read the instructions, but I assume they said that the supply
cable has to be 4sq mm!

 

BTW:  I bought that triple socket from a local branch of THE big DIY
supermarket, and it was designed to convert a twin outlet into a triple outlet
- I wonder how many people have fitted them to existing ring mains with 2.5sq
mm cable?

 

Regards

 

John Allen

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: "Colgan, Christopher [Harman Pro Group UK]" < 
 christopher.col...@harmanpro..com>

To: "   emc-p...@ieee.org" < 
 emc-p...@ieee.org>

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 4:20 PM

Subject: RE: UK Domestic Electrical Socket Outputs

 

> Jim
> 
> The answer lies in BS1363 of which I don't have a copy but from memory,
BS1363 for some reason specifies that double outlets are only required to be
rated at 13A in total.
> 
> However, you will find that some manufacturers rate their double sockets at
13A per outlet ie 26A in total.  That was the case with some MK sockets I
installed at home (before the dreaded "Part P" I hasten to add).  MK also do a
treble outlet but they added a fuse so the total in that case was only 13A.
> 
>  
www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/MK/Sockets.pdf
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chris Colgan - Safety & EMC Engineer
> Harman International Industries Ltd,
> Cranborne House, Cranborne Road,
> Potters Bar, Hertfordshire, EN6 3JN.
> Tel : +44(0)1707 668081
> Fax : +44(0)1707 660755
> Soundcraft is a Harman International Company
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From:  
owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee..org
> [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Speakman, Jim
> Sent: 04 April 2005 15:48
> To:   'emc-p...@ieee.org'
> Subject

Re: UK Domestic Electrical Socket Outputs

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

Nick

Good points - I would only say that I was mainly addressing Jim's original
question about the rating of the double-socket itself in respect of BS1363,
and not really the wider issue of Socket/cable/MCB coordination.

Regards

John

From: "Nick Williams" 
To: "John Allen" 
Cc: "Colgan, Christopher [Harman Pro Group UK]"
; 
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: UK Domestic Electrical Socket Outputs


> With all due respect to everyone who has commented so far, I think
> you have all missed a fundamental point (although John got quite
> close to it).
>
> So long as the MCB (or fuse) in the fuseboard is correctly specified
> for the cable(s) which connects it to the socket, then the rating of
> the socket itself is largely irrelevant. After all, you can have more
> than one double gang socket on a ring main, and the total load can be
> anything up to the 30A rating of the MCB.
>
> A ring main is rated at 30A despite the fact that it only used 2.5mm
> sq cable because two cables (=5mm sq) are used.
>
> So, in practice, the total load on a double gang socket can be 2 x
> 13A = 26A on a ring main, but only 15A on a spur. The limiting factor
> in the first case is the fusing of the plugs, in the second case it's
> the fusing of the fixed wiring.
>
> It's a question of what is the weakest link in the chain.
>
> Nick.
>
>
>
> At 6:02 pm +0100 4/4/05, John Allen wrote:
> >Chris, Jim
> >
> >Just taken a look at BS 1363-2: 1995, which is the part dealing with
> >sockets - the results are interesting!
> >
> >Here are the most relevant bits (with an awful lot left out!)
> >
> 
>
>


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Re: UK Domestic Electrical Socket Outputs

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

With all due respect to everyone who has commented so far, I think
you have all missed a fundamental point (although John got quite
close to it).

So long as the MCB (or fuse) in the fuseboard is correctly specified
for the cable(s) which connects it to the socket, then the rating of
the socket itself is largely irrelevant. After all, you can have more
than one double gang socket on a ring main, and the total load can be
anything up to the 30A rating of the MCB.

A ring main is rated at 30A despite the fact that it only used 2.5mm
sq cable because two cables (=5mm sq) are used.

So, in practice, the total load on a double gang socket can be 2 x
13A = 26A on a ring main, but only 15A on a spur. The limiting factor
in the first case is the fusing of the plugs, in the second case it's
the fusing of the fixed wiring.

It's a question of what is the weakest link in the chain.

Nick.



At 6:02 pm +0100 4/4/05, John Allen wrote:
>Chris, Jim
>
>Just taken a look at BS 1363-2: 1995, which is the part dealing with
>sockets - the results are interesting!
>
>Here are the most relevant bits (with an awful lot left out!)
>



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UK Domestic Electrical Socket Outputs

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

My thanks to those of you who took time to answer my query with regards to
this problem.  I think John Allen has summed it up quite nicely.

It's a very interesting lesson in 'assumptions', and 'taking things for
granted'.  I had always 'assumed' and 'taken for granted' that using
separate sockets (single, double or treble), without the addition of
multi-socket adapters and extension leads, would allow me to connect
appropriately rated fused plugs attached to appliances quite safely.

I can now see that I shall have to be a bit more circumspect in future.

Many thanks

__
Jim Speakman
Thales Aerospace
Manor Royal
Crawley
West Sussex
RH10 9PZ


Tel:+44(0)1293 644911
Mob:+44(0)7968 529439
Fax :   +44(0)1293 644194
e-mail: jim.speak...@uk.thalesgroup.com

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RE: WEEE in The Netherlands

[owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]

Richard Stone,
 
The Netherlands has transposed the WEEE and RoHS directives into national
regulations in July 2004.
 
 
Leen Mak
 
 


From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org 
mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Stone, Richard
Sent: maandag 4 april 2005 14:36
To: richhug...@aol.com; donsla...@wi.rr.com; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: WEEE in Germany


hello all,
I am now thouroughly confused on dates and countries required participation of
the WEEE,
which was suppose to start now...
 
If the EU Govenrment has a directive and a date, isnt it required of ALL EU
members to follow these dates
and NOT go out on there own and change dates and anything else?
 
by the way, is there anything specific on the Netherlands and the WEEE...I'd
like to know more on that country.
 
we will plan on applying the WEEE wheely bin label in August, but I'd like to
know exactly whats going on if possible.
thank you.
Richard,


From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org 
mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]On Behalf Of richhug...@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 3:37 AM
To: donsla...@wi.rr.com; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: WEEE in Germany



Don, others,

Thanks for the link.
 
As I understand it, the Basic Law at the Federal level has been passed in
Germany but the various Länder (local states) still have to pass their
enabling legislation.  Can someone from Germany confirm this please?  If true,
does it mean that the law could apply in some Länder before others, or is
there a synchronising mechanism?
 
>From the information I have, the WEEE Directive seems to be the biggest
problem in the biggest countries (UK, Italy, France and Germany).  Smaller
countries, be they older members (e.g.Belgium and the Netherlands) or recent
accession countries (e.g. Hungary and Slovakia) seem to have their legislative
act together.  I'm not sure about medium sized countries, such as Spain and
Poland.  Perhaps others could confirm or correct?
 
{To clarify, by small, medium and large I do not mean geographic area, but
rather weighted voting rights within the EU legal system (and correspondingly
within the ESOs - European Standards Organisations).}
 
Richard Hughes
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