[PSES] I'm at a loss on lasers

[McInturff, Gary]

Does anybody have a succinct answer to the relationship between the FDA and 
safety approvals?

The FDA just seems to classify the maximum out of a laser component, and quite 
often is class III - and identifies it as harmful to the eye. If I use the 
device in a product then we have to be concerned with safety approvals of the 
requisite standard and they require class I output if the beam comes out of the 
enclosure. The FDA doesn't care about product standards other than medical 
standards.  UL will recognize a laser, imposing fault requirements that the FDA 
doesn't seem to impose, and will do an EN60825 evaluation as well. They do this 
with the help of the CDRH report filed with the FDA. Again they will classify 
the laser in alignment with the CDRH report, but the still apply the end 
product beam requirements. The FDA seems to care about classification and 
tracking of the device but not implementation. If class III is hazardous how 
does one make a gun sight laser for the commercial market without violating in 
the US or EU directives. I see a package marking that has the CE mark, but who 
can tell what that means without the DoC - could just be RoHS as far as I can 
tell.

Trying to get the program manager off my back - he's hell bent for leather - 
charging head because he found the gun sight on the market and that's enough 
for him. I don't actually blame him, but I need to understand the details a bit 
more than that.

I think I might be wrapped around the axel a little too tightly - the world is 
full of inherently dangerous things - guns and knives. Should I just be 
recommending that we grab any only FDA classified laser, put it in the product 
and sell it hither and yon, like a gun or a knife without product standards. 
How about the EU - just how does that work - I don't see any hint of a EU 
directive just the CE mark but without reference to directives. It could simply 
mean that they have RoHS.

Scans of the CDRH report requirements itself are helpful but don't address the 
relationship between FDA classification and safety control

Crud



Gary McInturff
Reliability/Compliance Engineer








Esterline Interface Technologies

Featuring
ADVANCED INPUT, MEMTRON, and LRE MEDICAL products



600 W. Wilbur Avenue
Coeur d'Alene, ID  83815-9496
Office:208-635-8306
Cell:  509 868 2279
Toll Free: 800-444-5923 X 1238
gary.mcintu...@esterline.com


www.esterline.com/interfacetechnologies

Technology, Innovation, Performance...




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Re: [PSES] power plugs

[Brian Oconnell]

NCB = National Certification Body
CBTL = Certification Body Test Laboratory

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:45 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: power plugs


In message <3fab9750e2aa4876aafdbb86491db...@tamuracorp.com>, dated Thu,
26 Jan 2012, Brian Oconnell  writes:

>Is NCB or CBTL the definition of 'legitimate approval' ? They do not
>always accept other reports.

I don't recognize those abbreviations.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking
of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] power plugs

[John Woodgate]

In message <3fab9750e2aa4876aafdbb86491db...@tamuracorp.com>, dated Thu, 
26 Jan 2012, Brian Oconnell  writes:


Is NCB or CBTL the definition of 'legitimate approval' ? They do not 
always accept other reports.


I don't recognize those abbreviations.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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Re: [PSES] power plugs

[Brian Oconnell]

Is NCB or CBTL the definition of 'legitimate approval' ? They do not always
accept other reports.

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of John
Woodgate
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:09 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: power plugs

In message
, dated Thu, 26 Jan 2012, Ted Eckert 
writes:

>It?s up to the individual regulatory authorities as to which approvals
>they will accept or require.

Not in Europe. Any legitimate approval has to be accepted everywhere in
EU and EFTA. Not all 27+4 have approval bodies.

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Re: [PSES] power plugs

[John Woodgate]

In message 
soft.com>, dated Thu, 26 Jan 2012, Ted Eckert  
writes:


It?s up to the individual regulatory authorities as to which approvals 
they will accept or require.


Not in Europe. Any legitimate approval has to be accepted everywhere in 
EU and EFTA. Not all 27+4 have approval bodies.


--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

-

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Re: [PSES] fused plugs or short cords

[Brian Oconnell]

Quail p/n 2573.120 has received the glorious blessing of the UL galactic
empress.

There are others. The all-knowing priests of Bing and Google are your
beatified friends.


-Original Message-
From: Doug Smith [mailto:d...@emcesd.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:38 AM
To: oconne...@tamuracorp.com
Cc: d...@dsmith.org; 'emc-pstc'
Subject: Re: fused plugs or short cords

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the information, but I need a UL certified device. If I build
it, I will be responsible for it, also the time required to build would
make the device fairly expensive.

Doug

On 1/26/12 10:52 AM, Brian Oconnell wrote:
> Build with Bussman HEB series in-line fuse-holder.
>
> Tumbler, Quail and others have NEMA 5-15 plug with fuse-holder ->  not
good.
>
> Brian
>
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug
> Smith
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 10:30 AM
> To: emc-pstc
> Subject: fused plugs or short cords
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I am looking for fused plugs (sort of like the ones used in the UK, but
> for the US) or a short (one foot) extension with a fuse in it. I would
> like for it to use standard fuses and will likely fuse at about 4
> Amperes. Does anyone know of a source? Many years ago I used to use
> Elmenco fused plugs on my ham radio gear, but now need a three prong
> version with the fuse only on the hot side for a commercial application
> (would like a few for myself also).
>
> A version that would plug into an outlet and the provide a fused socket
> to provide power would be ideal.
>
> I have looked on Google and have not been able to come up with anything
> good. The closest I have come is a fused two prong plug for Christmas
> tree lights. Close, but not three prong.
>
> Doug

-

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Re: [PSES] fused plugs or short cords

[Doug Smith]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the information, but I need a UL certified device. If I build 
it, I will be responsible for it, also the time required to build would 
make the device fairly expensive.


Doug

On 1/26/12 10:52 AM, Brian Oconnell wrote:

Build with Bussman HEB series in-line fuse-holder.

Tumbler, Quail and others have NEMA 5-15 plug with fuse-holder ->  not good.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug
Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 10:30 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: fused plugs or short cords

Hi Everyone,

I am looking for fused plugs (sort of like the ones used in the UK, but
for the US) or a short (one foot) extension with a fuse in it. I would
like for it to use standard fuses and will likely fuse at about 4
Amperes. Does anyone know of a source? Many years ago I used to use
Elmenco fused plugs on my ham radio gear, but now need a three prong
version with the fuse only on the hot side for a commercial application
(would like a few for myself also).

A version that would plug into an outlet and the provide a fused socket
to provide power would be ideal.

I have looked on Google and have not been able to come up with anything
good. The closest I have come is a fused two prong plug for Christmas
tree lights. Close, but not three prong.

Doug





--
---
___  _   Doug Smith
 \  / )  P.O. Box 1457
  =  Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457
   _ / \ / \ _   TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799
 /  /\  \ ] /  /\  \ Mobile:  408-858-4528
|  q-( )  |  o  |Email:   d...@dsmith.org
 \ _ /]\ _ / Website: http://www.dsmith.org
---

-

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Re: [PSES] power plugs

[Ted Eckert]

Hello Scott,

It's up to the individual regulatory authorities as to which approvals they 
will accept or require. Having multiple approvals reduces the risk of a problem 
in any one country. However, it's unlikely that you will find a plug with 
approvals from all 27 members of the EU, the 4 EFTA members and the multiple 
other countries that will accept the Europlug. I've not had issues with plugs 
that have had approvals from just a few of the Western European countries.

That being said, I've seen plenty of direct plug-in power supplies with a 
Europlug configuration that have nothing more than a CE mark and possibly an 
approval from TÜV.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.com

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 8:09 AM
To: Ted Eckert; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: power plugs

Hi Ted,

Thanks for info.  Did you mean the Europlug needs to have all countries 
approval or to have any one approval only before legally used in all European 
countries.

Scott


On 25/1/12 2:33 AM, "Ted Eckert"  wrote:
Hello Scott,

The Europlug is commonly accepted across Europe with the exception of the 
countries that use the BS 1363 plug. You will find that a Europlug complying 
with EN 50075 and IEC 60884-1 can get approvals from all of the major European 
approvers. Here is one example 

  that has CEBEC, Demko, Fimko, IMQ, KEMA KEUR, Nemko, ÖVE, Semko, ESTI and 
VDE. (I am referencing this one vendor only because I know they clearly list 
the approvals on their web site. There are plenty of other cord vendors with 
similar products.)

The restrictions to the use of the Europlug are that the equipment must be 
Class II and rated no more than 2.5 A. If you meet these requirements, you will 
find that there are generally no regulatory barriers to including this plug 
with your product.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
1 Microsoft Way
Redmond, WA 98052
(425) 707-9205
ted.eck...@microsoft.com 

This email message may contain confidential and proprietary information.  Any 
unauthorized use is prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original 
message.

-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:12 AM
To: Ted Eckert; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: power plugs

In Europe, Euro plug is widely used and accepted although each country may have 
their own plug.  As in EN standard, the product must be fitted with the plug in 
the country where the product is sold.  Is Euro plug legally correct in those 
countries?  I have learnt that it is allowed as the population of some European 
countries is relatively small.  Otherwise, the product may be higher in price 
and they get less choice from the suppliers.  Anyone knows about this practice?

Thanks and regards,

Scott

On 24/1/12 10:18 AM, "Ted Eckert" mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com> > wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> You will want the CEE 7/7 for most of Europe. It works in almost any
> European outlet that doesn't accept one of the three that you
> mentioned. The BS 1363 covers the UK, Ireland and Malta. The SEV 1011
> only covers Switzerland. Make sure your supplier conforms to the new
> SEV 1011:2009 since Switzerland will require partially insulated pins
> next year. The CEI 23-16 will work only in Italy.
>
> Ted Eckert
> Compliance Engineer
> Microsoft Corporation
> ted.eck...@microsoft.com 
>
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those
> of my employer.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
> 
> Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 3:43 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> Subject: power plugs
>
> Want to reduce number of plug types on pwr cords. Where I need ground
> pin, was thinking of reducing types to CEI23-16, SEV1011, and BS1363A.
>
> Is this a stupid idea? Am I missing a major European plug type?
>
> thanks,
> Brian
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
> e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html 
> 
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
> site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ 
> 

Re: [PSES] fused plugs or short cords

[Brian Oconnell]

Build with Bussman HEB series in-line fuse-holder.

Tumbler, Quail and others have NEMA 5-15 plug with fuse-holder -> not good.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug
Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 10:30 AM
To: emc-pstc
Subject: fused plugs or short cords

Hi Everyone,

I am looking for fused plugs (sort of like the ones used in the UK, but 
for the US) or a short (one foot) extension with a fuse in it. I would 
like for it to use standard fuses and will likely fuse at about 4 
Amperes. Does anyone know of a source? Many years ago I used to use 
Elmenco fused plugs on my ham radio gear, but now need a three prong 
version with the fuse only on the hot side for a commercial application 
(would like a few for myself also).

A version that would plug into an outlet and the provide a fused socket 
to provide power would be ideal.

I have looked on Google and have not been able to come up with anything 
good. The closest I have come is a fused two prong plug for Christmas 
tree lights. Close, but not three prong.

Doug

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
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Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

[PSES] fused plugs or short cords

[Doug Smith]

Hi Everyone,

I am looking for fused plugs (sort of like the ones used in the UK, but 
for the US) or a short (one foot) extension with a fuse in it. I would 
like for it to use standard fuses and will likely fuse at about 4 
Amperes. Does anyone know of a source? Many years ago I used to use 
Elmenco fused plugs on my ham radio gear, but now need a three prong 
version with the fuse only on the hot side for a commercial application 
(would like a few for myself also).


A version that would plug into an outlet and the provide a fused socket 
to provide power would be ideal.


I have looked on Google and have not been able to come up with anything 
good. The closest I have come is a fused two prong plug for Christmas 
tree lights. Close, but not three prong.


Doug

--
---
___  _   Doug Smith
 \  / )  P.O. Box 1457
  =  Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457
   _ / \ / \ _   TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799
 /  /\  \ ] /  /\  \ Mobile:  408-858-4528
|  q-( )  |  o  |Email:   d...@dsmith.org
 \ _ /]\ _ / Website: http://www.dsmith.org
---

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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For policy questions, send mail to:
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Re: [PSES] Control Panel Interrupt Ratings

[Brian Oconnell]

Looks like you need to block out some reading time on your schedule.
Insufficient information to determine requirements. SquareD, Siemans, and
Eaton would probably have much info on cb/fuse coordination.

Type 2 coordination is for IEC60947. Look at UL508/508A and CSA No 14, and
their intersection with NEC articles 110, 240, 408, and 690 for interrupt
requirements.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Kevin
Ambrose
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:31 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Control Panel Interrupt Ratings

I have a question regarding determining the interrupt rating for a control
panel in the US.  In particular I would like clarification for the
combination of inverters (or other equipment) with the manufacturer's
recommended fusing.  If the recommendation is followed does the assembly of
the 2 components have the interrupt rating of the fuse?  Similarly if I have
a solid state contactor and fuse that limits the let through current to less
than the inrush current resistance what  rating does the combination assume.


It is my understanding that this is the case when type 2 coordination is
done with contactor/fuse combinations the fuse rating applies.  Does this
work the same way or am I off base.

Thanks

Kevin Ambrose 
Control Technologies Inc. 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] power plugs

[Scott Xe]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for info.  Did you mean the Europlug needs to have all countries
approval or to have any one approval only before legally used in all
European countries.

Scott


On 25/1/12 2:33 AM, "Ted Eckert"  wrote:

> Hello Scott,
>  
> The Europlug is commonly accepted across Europe with the exception of the
> countries that use the BS 1363 plug. You will find that a Europlug complying
> with EN 50075 and IEC 60884-1 can get approvals from all of the major European
> approvers. Here is one example
>  ils&classid=1&countryid=1&plugid=178&Itemid=31>  that has CEBEC, Demko, Fimko,
> IMQ, KEMA KEUR, Nemko, ÖVE, Semko, ESTI and VDE. (I am referencing this one
> vendor only because I know they clearly list the approvals on their web site.
> There are plenty of other cord vendors with similar products.)
>  
> The restrictions to the use of the Europlug are that the equipment must be
> Class II and rated no more than 2.5 A. If you meet these requirements, you
> will find that there are generally no regulatory barriers to including this
> plug with your product.
>  
> Ted Eckert
> Compliance Engineer
> Microsoft Corporation
> 1 Microsoft Way
> Redmond, WA 98052
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>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:12 AM
> To: Ted Eckert; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: power plugs
>  
> In Europe, Euro plug is widely used and accepted although each country may
> have their own plug.  As in EN standard, the product must be fitted with the
> plug in the country where the product is sold.  Is Euro plug legally correct
> in those countries?  I have learnt that it is allowed as the population of
> some European countries is relatively small.  Otherwise, the product may be
> higher in price and they get less choice from the suppliers.  Anyone knows
> about this practice?
>  
> Thanks and regards,
>  
> Scott
>  
> On 24/1/12 10:18 AM, "Ted Eckert"   > wrote:
>  
>> > Hi Brian,
>> > 
>> > You will want the CEE 7/7 for most of Europe. It works in almost any
>> > European outlet that doesn't accept one of the three that you
>> > mentioned. The BS 1363 covers the UK, Ireland and Malta. The SEV 1011
>> > only covers Switzerland. Make sure your supplier conforms to the new
>> > SEV 1011:2009 since Switzerland will require partially insulated pins
>> > next year. The CEI 23-16 will work only in Italy.
>> > 
>> > Ted Eckert
>> > Compliance Engineer
>> > Microsoft Corporation
>> > ted.eck...@microsoft.com 
>> > 
>> > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those
>> > of my employer.
>> > 
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
>> 
>> > Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 3:43 PM
>> > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
>> > Subject: power plugs
>> > 
>> > Want to reduce number of plug types on pwr cords. Where I need ground
>> > pin, was thinking of reducing types to CEI23-16, SEV1011, and BS1363A.
>> > 
>> > Is this a stupid idea? Am I missing a major European plug type?
>> > 
>> > thanks,
>> > Brian
>> > 
>> > -
>> > 
>> > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
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>> > e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >
>> > 
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>> > 
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>> > 
>> > -
>> > 
>> > Th

[PSES] Control Panel Interrupt Ratings

[Kevin Ambrose]

I have a question regarding determining the interrupt rating for a control 
panel in the US.  In particular I would like clarification for the combination 
of inverters (or other equipment) with the manufacturer's recommended fusing.  
If the recommendation is followed does the assembly of the 2 components have 
the interrupt rating of the fuse?  Similarly if I have a solid state contactor 
and fuse that limits the let through current to less than the inrush current 
resistance what  rating does the combination assume.  

It is my understanding that this is the case when type 2 coordination is done 
with contactor/fuse combinations the fuse rating applies.  Does this work the 
same way or am I off base.

Thanks

Kevin Ambrose 
Control Technologies Inc. 

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] EMC and RTTE directive - out of scope because of power levels?

[John Woodgate]

In message <01ccdbfa$ee3cf120$cab6d360$@tele.dk>, dated Thu, 26 Jan 
2012, Helge Knudsen  writes:



Quartz Watches are exempted from the EMC Directive,


I know. But nothing in Europe corresponds to the FCC's numerical limit 
of 6 nW, as far as I know.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of
biting a rook.

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
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