Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?
Now it is a little more work than that. Last one I was involved in we did a quick and dirty temperature test, dielectric, ground bond and visual inspection to ensure proper fusing, the power switch breaks line, PE is green yellow/green, etc. The inspection takes about 2 hrs then the report is a short report that goes with it. This inspection is called a Special Inspection and it is performed to SPE-1000, we would also include portions of the product standard for limits and construction requirements. Not sure if this is the same as the Hydro inspection but it sounds like it could be. Josh From: McInturff, Gary [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 4:19 PM To: Wiseman, Joshua E; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG' Subject: RE: Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada? Hydro – inspections I believe they are called. It’s been awhile, but commercial businesses etc were awfully careful about making certain there were certifications marks on equipment before they were turned on. I had to make a few trips into Canada for trade shows on equipment that had complete the process. The hotel’s that trade shows were being held at would not allow us to even move the equipment to the show floor without the hydro authority inspections, and paperwork. It wasn’t a very detailed inspection, about I all I can remember is making sure there was a ground connection and that the power switch was on the hot side of the outlet. It only took about an hour and I don’t really know what the inspector did other than those two tests. This was many years ago so maybe they’ve changed except I still see references to Hydro Authority inspections. Last point the inspection was provincial only, move the same equipment with the hydro sticker on it to another province and it required a new inspection. Was all that bad. Lots of slack time and I still wish I could get some Ontario Smoke meat – it was pretty tasty Gary From: Wiseman, Joshua E [mailto:joshua.e.wise...@carrier.utc.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:46 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada? Jim, Yes, I don’t remember what code or regulation this is stated in, but when I was working at an NRTL occasionally we would have a customer asking how to get items through customs because it was not approved. Canada has a Special Inspection program that is similar to field evaluations in the US and it is fairly well regulated by the SCC. There are many manufacturers who ship products in to the country and get away with it, but occasionally customs will stop shipments until you can provide evidence of compliance or have a special inspection performed. Josh From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 3:35 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGmailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada? In the U.S., there are OSHA regulations that require electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified to U.S. standards by one of OSHA’s Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories (NRTL’s). Is there a similar regulation in Canada that requires electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified by one of the Standards Council of Canada approved test laboratories to Canadian standards? Jim Hulbert Pitney Bowes - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for
Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?
Thank you for responses I've received. They've been very helpful. Jim Hulbert From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Jim Hulbert Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 4:35 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada? In the U.S., there are OSHA regulations that require electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified to U.S. standards by one of OSHA's Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories (NRTL's). Is there a similar regulation in Canada that requires electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified by one of the Standards Council of Canada approved test laboratories to Canadian standards? Jim Hulbert Pitney Bowes - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] wireless approvals matrix
Bob,I believe that document may be on the Product Compliance online communities site. Unfortunately most of the IEEE web servers are down because of the storm so I cannot verify.The URL is http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ and you need an IEEE account to view it. An IEEE account is available for either members or non-members. Visit www.ieee.org and click on the "My IEEE" link to create an account. Hopefully the sites will be back up by next week.DanFrom: Sykes, Bob [mailto:bob.sy...@gilbarco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:07 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: [PSES] wireless approvals matrixWorldly Experts,Some time ago a few members of this list compiled a list of global wireless approval requirements.Foolishly I did not save any emails containing the link to that document and now it would be extremely to me.It seems the list archives are not working, or the at least the link to them in the email footers doesn't work.Can anyone point me to the wireless approval document?adTHANKSvance,Bob Sykes - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?
The amount of time required and the specific tests that would be involved in the special inspection, which would typically be for a single product or system (or a small very small number) would depend greatly on the type of product it is, and is similar to an electrical inspection - the intent is the same - to make sure that once power is applied to the product that the product is safe to operate. If the product has the certification from a recognized certification body (i.e. CSA, UL, NEMKO, Intertek, etc.) then the special inspection is not required. It would be required only if the product to be installed is not previously approved for use in Canada. If you have a specific need in this regard, please give me a call - whether the product requires certification or special inspection. Once I have the details, I can tell you if we can assist and if we can't I can point you to someone who can. Tom Smith, P.Eng Product Safety and Approvals Consultant TJS Technical Services Inc. Tel: +1 403-612-6664 Email: tsm...@tjstechnical.com http://tjstechnical.com http://tjstechnical.com/ Follow us on Twitter: TJS_Technical From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Wiseman, Joshua E Sent: November-02-12 6:46 AM To: McInturff, Gary; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG' Subject: RE: Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada? Now it is a little more work than that. Last one I was involved in we did a quick and dirty temperature test, dielectric, ground bond and visual inspection to ensure proper fusing, the power switch breaks line, PE is green yellow/green, etc. The inspection takes about 2 hrs then the report is a short report that goes with it. This inspection is called a Special Inspection and it is performed to SPE-1000, we would also include portions of the product standard for limits and construction requirements. Not sure if this is the same as the Hydro inspection but it sounds like it could be. Josh From: McInturff, Gary [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 4:19 PM To: Wiseman, Joshua E; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG' Subject: RE: Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada? Hydro - inspections I believe they are called. It's been awhile, but commercial businesses etc were awfully careful about making certain there were certifications marks on equipment before they were turned on. I had to make a few trips into Canada for trade shows on equipment that had complete the process. The hotel's that trade shows were being held at would not allow us to even move the equipment to the show floor without the hydro authority inspections, and paperwork. It wasn't a very detailed inspection, about I all I can remember is making sure there was a ground connection and that the power switch was on the hot side of the outlet. It only took about an hour and I don't really know what the inspector did other than those two tests. This was many years ago so maybe they've changed except I still see references to Hydro Authority inspections. Last point the inspection was provincial only, move the same equipment with the hydro sticker on it to another province and it required a new inspection. Was all that bad. Lots of slack time and I still wish I could get some Ontario Smoke meat - it was pretty tasty Gary From: Wiseman, Joshua E [mailto:joshua.e.wise...@carrier.utc.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:46 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada? Jim, Yes, I don't remember what code or regulation this is stated in, but when I was working at an NRTL occasionally we would have a customer asking how to get items through customs because it was not approved. Canada has a Special Inspection program that is similar to field evaluations in the US and it is fairly well regulated by the SCC. There are many manufacturers who ship products in to the country and get away with it, but occasionally customs will stop shipments until you can provide evidence of compliance or have a special inspection performed. Josh From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 3:35 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada? In the U.S., there are OSHA regulations that require electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified to U.S. standards by one of OSHA's Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories (NRTL's). Is there a similar regulation in Canada that requires electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified by one of the Standards Council of Canada approved test laboratories to Canadian standards? Jim Hulbert Pitney Bowes _ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?
Jim, In addition to the electrical code requirements under the Canadian Electrical Code (CEC), CSA C22.1, and the applicable parts of the CE Part 2 standards (CSA C22.2 #X), the Field Evaluation (sometimes called Special Inspection) can be done by an SCC Accredited Inspection body under CSA SPE-1000 as mentioned by another list member. FE inspections are only suitable for small volumes of products, say 1-200 pieces per year at most. Beyond that you will find it is more economical to have the product certified by an SCC accredited Certification Body. If you are selling the product to industry in the Province of Ontario, there may also be the requirement for a Pre-Start Health and Safety Review under Ontario Regulation 851, Section 7. This does not apply in any other Province or Territory. Links: CEC Part 1: http://shop.csa.ca/search?q=C22.1categoryPathRefs=shopsearchsubmit=Search CEC Part 2: http://shop.csa.ca/search?q=C22.2categoryPathRefs=shopsearchsubmit=Search SPE-1000: http://shop.csa.ca/search?q=SPE-1000categoryPathRefs=shopsearchsubmit=Search Ontario Regulation 851: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900851_e.htm SCC Accredited Inspection Body List: http://www.scc.ca/en/accreditation/inspection-bodies/directory-of-accredited-clients SCC Accredited Certification Body List: http://www.scc.ca/en/accreditation/product-process-and-service-certification/directory-of-accredited-clients Regards, Doug NIX Compliance InSight Consulting Inc. Know Risk... Design Safety Office: +1 (519) 650-4753 Mobile: +1 (519) 729-5704 Skype: cic-inc email: d...@complianceinsight.ca Want to meet? On 1-November-2012, at 16:34, Jim Hulbert wrote: In the U.S., there are OSHA regulations that require electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified to U.S. standards by one of OSHA’s Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories (NRTL’s). Is there a similar regulation in Canada that requires electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified by one of the Standards Council of Canada approved test laboratories to Canadian standards? Jim Hulbert Pitney Bowes - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
[PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier
Esteemed Colleagues, I have a product submitted to NRTL E that uses a Mylar electrical barrier between line-voltage (120 V ac), uninsulated live parts on a circuit board and the aluminum electrical enclosure. The 'through-air' spacing would be a little short without this barrier in place. The barrier material has a UL 94 VTM-2 flame rating and has been accepted in other similar products for many years in similar applications by NRTL U. NRTL E is objecting to use of this material for this application but so far has not provided a reason. Can any of you think of a reason why a plastic film with a VTM-2 flame rating shouldn't be used as an electrical barrier? Thanks for any and all comments. Regards, Richard Pittenger Agency Approval Engineer Food Machines Engineering Hobart/Berkel Disclaimer - This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and contain privileged or copyrighted information. You must not present this message to another party without first gaining permission from the sender. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not copy, print, distribute or use this email or the information contained in it for any purpose other than to notify us. If you received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. We do not guarantee that this email is free from viruses or any other defects although due care has been taken to minimize the risk. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier
The NRTL assessment engineer must provide specific requirements via normative clauses of the scoped standard, or a formal corporate policy that has been published. If this person will not or cannot, immediately contact the agency's technical authority for the scope of your equipment. The OSHA NRTL program does allow a certain latitude per 'engineering judgment'. The material shall be rated for your intended use and conditions of acceptability. Creepage and Clearance are defined and specified in all ANSI safety standards. I will address these type of agency issues at the PSES symposium. Brian -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Richard Pittenger Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 11:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier Esteemed Colleagues, I have a product submitted to NRTL E that uses a Mylar electrical barrier between line-voltage (120 V ac), uninsulated live parts on a circuit board and the aluminum electrical enclosure. The 'through-air' spacing would be a little short without this barrier in place. The barrier material has a UL 94 VTM-2 flame rating and has been accepted in other similar products for many years in similar applications by NRTL U. NRTL E is objecting to use of this material for this application but so far has not provided a reason. Can any of you think of a reason why a plastic film with a VTM-2 flame rating shouldn't be used as an electrical barrier? Thanks for any and all comments. Regards, Richard Pittenger Agency Approval Engineer Food Machines Engineering Hobart/Berkel Disclaimer - This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and contain privileged or copyrighted information. You must not present this message to another party without first gaining permission from the sender. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not copy, print, distribute or use this email or the information contained in it for any purpose other than to notify us. If you received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. We do not guarantee that this email is free from viruses or any other defects although due care has been taken to minimize the risk. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier
In message 99280a01673ff44180f15babb58896ca091b2ae...@troyex2.itwfeg.biz, dated Fri, 2 Nov 2012, Richard Pittenger richard.pitten...@hobartcorp.com writes: NRTL ?E? is objecting to use of this material for this application but so far has not provided a reason. Can any of you think of a reason why a plastic film with a VTM-2 flame rating shouldn?t be used as an electrical barrier? Surely it's up to the NRTL to say why they object. It might be because the part could be removed during servicing and not replaced. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk The longer it takes to make a point, the more obtuse it proves to be. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier
Flame rating doesn't mean it's an insulator. Is it an insulator? What are the Dielectric properties? Insulators depend on the Standard. Most I've worked in require insulators to be 0.7mm thick, minimum. They also may be concerned that a sharp solder point or component pins can pierce the insulation. We've used mica and fish paper without issues. Also, the orange insulator (Kapton) I think is either GE or EI Dupont and we've used it many times in the past. For NRTL E - make him point to the clause in the Standard From: Richard Pittenger [mailto:richard.pitten...@hobartcorp.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 1:21 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier Esteemed Colleagues, I have a product submitted to NRTL E that uses a Mylar electrical barrier between line-voltage (120 V ac), uninsulated live parts on a circuit board and the aluminum electrical enclosure. The 'through-air' spacing would be a little short without this barrier in place. The barrier material has a UL 94 VTM-2 flame rating and has been accepted in other similar products for many years in similar applications by NRTL U. NRTL E is objecting to use of this material for this application but so far has not provided a reason. Can any of you think of a reason why a plastic film with a VTM-2 flame rating shouldn't be used as an electrical barrier? Thanks for any and all comments. Regards, Richard Pittenger Agency Approval Engineer Food Machines Engineering Hobart/Berkel Disclaimer - This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and contain privileged or copyrighted information. You must not present this message to another party without first gaining permission from the sender. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not copy, print, distribute or use this email or the information contained in it for any purpose other than to notify us. If you received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. We do not guarantee that this email is free from viruses or any other defects although due care has been taken to minimize the risk. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier
And some standards will provide only a reduction in clearance if an insulator is used, it won't necessarily replace the need for a clearance. (as silly as that may sound) ___ Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA | Regulatory Compliance Engineering From: jral...@productsafetyinc.com jral...@productsafetyinc.com To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Date: 11/02/2012 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier Flame rating doesn’t mean it’s an insulator. Is it an insulator? What are the Dielectric properties? Insulators depend on the Standard. Most I’ve worked in require insulators to be 0.7mm thick, minimum. They also may be concerned that a sharp solder point or component pins can pierce the insulation. We’ve used mica and fish paper without issues. Also, the orange insulator (Kapton) I think is either GE or EI Dupont and we’ve used it many times in the past. For NRTL E – make him point to the clause in the Standard From: Richard Pittenger [mailto:richard.pitten...@hobartcorp.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 1:21 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier Esteemed Colleagues, I have a product submitted to NRTL “E” that uses a Mylar electrical barrier between line-voltage (120 V ac), uninsulated live parts on a circuit board and the aluminum electrical enclosure. The ‘through-air’ spacing would be a little short without this barrier in place. The barrier material has a UL 94 VTM-2 flame rating and has been accepted in other similar products for many years in similar applications by NRTL “U”. NRTL “E” is objecting to use of this material for this application but so far has not provided a reason. Can any of you think of a reason why a plastic film with a VTM-2 flame rating shouldn’t be used as an electrical barrier? Thanks for any and all comments. Regards, Richard Pittenger Agency Approval Engineer Food Machines Engineering Hobart/Berkel Disclaimer - This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and contain privileged or copyrighted information. You must not present this message to another party without first gaining permission from the sender. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not copy, print, distribute or use this email or the information contained in it for any purpose other than to notify us. If you received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. We do not guarantee that this email is free from viruses or any other defects although due care has been taken to minimize the risk. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All
[PSES] Logo Identification
Can someone identify the organization that issues this logo? http://tjstechnical.com/images/IMG_0238-1.jpg Tom Smith, P.Eng Product Safety and Approvals Consultant TJS Technical Services Inc. Tel: +1 403-612-6664 Email: tsm...@tjstechnical.com http://tjstechnical.com http://tjstechnical.com/ Follow us on Twitter: TJS_Technical - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Logo Identification
Hi Tom, That symbol is a China RoHS marking found in document SJ/T11364-2006 issued by the MII where the specifications for that symbol are given. This symbol's intent is to indicate a product to be environmentally friendly. IHTH. Best regards, Ron From: Tom Smith [mailto:tsm...@tjstechnical.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 1:51 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Logo Identification Can someone identify the organization that issues this logo? http://tjstechnical.com/images/IMG_0238-1.jpg Tom Smith, P.Eng Product Safety and Approvals Consultant TJS Technical Services Inc. Tel: +1 403-612-6664 Email: tsm...@tjstechnical.commailto:tsm...@tjstechnical.com http://tjstechnical.comhttp://tjstechnical.com/ Follow us on Twitter: TJS_Technical - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Logo Identification
Tom, The logo is the China RoHS Environment Friendly Use Period logo - it should be green if the substances are all under the limits or not present, and It would be orange if any of them were above or if you did not know, with a number inside where the e is. That number would be a manufacturer determined time, in increments of 5 years, before the product would become a hazard to the environment by leaching or escaping into the water, air, or ground. Steve Brody stev...@productehsconsulting.com www.productehsconsulting.com From: Tom Smith [mailto:tsm...@tjstechnical.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 4:51 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Logo Identification Can someone identify the organization that issues this logo? http://tjstechnical.com/images/IMG_0238-1.jpg Tom Smith, P.Eng Product Safety and Approvals Consultant TJS Technical Services Inc. Tel: +1 403-612-6664 Email: tsm...@tjstechnical.com http://tjstechnical.com http://tjstechnical.com/ Follow us on Twitter: TJS_Technical - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier
Hi Richard: Unfortunately, this situation mixes two, independent requirements: 1) electrical insulation requirements, and 2) anti-fire requirements. If the clearance (air insulation) is insufficient for basic insulation, then a solid insulation may be used in place of the clearance. If the metal enclosure is grounded, then the insulation must be basic insulation, and no requirements for the thickness of the solid insulation. If the metal enclosure is not grounded, then the solid insulation comprises supplementary insulation and must be at least 0.4 mm thick. (Typically, no other electrical properties apply to the solid insulation.) Without knowing anything further about the construction, the material will need to be rated at least HB for anti-fire. The applicable standard will specify the required flammability rating. In some cases, all material within the power supply must be at least V2 (equivalently VTM2). Don’t let the certification house mix up the two requirements. As others have advised, insist the cert house show you the written requirements! Best regards, Rich -Original Message- From: Richard Pittenger Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 11:21 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier Esteemed Colleagues, I have a product submitted to NRTL “E” that uses a Mylar electrical barrier between line-voltage (120 V ac), uninsulated live parts on a circuit board and the aluminum electrical enclosure. The ‘through-air’ spacing would be a little short without this barrier in place. The barrier material has a UL 94 VTM-2 flame rating and has been accepted in other similar products for many years in similar applications by NRTL “U”. NRTL “E” is objecting to use of this material for this application but so far has not provided a reason. Can any of you think of a reason why a plastic film with a VTM-2 flame rating shouldn’t be used as an electrical barrier? Thanks for any and all comments. Regards, Richard Pittenger Agency Approval Engineer Food Machines Engineering Hobart/Berkel - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
