[PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[McBurney, Ian]

This is a question for the safety testing engineers.

We have products that contain 12V/24V DC cooling fans that cool either the PSU 
or processing circuits.
The fan speeds are reduced with basically a series resistor to reduce audio 
noise.
The safety testing agency demands to know the exact model number and CFM of 
each fan even though the products continue to function during the stalled rotor 
test. Obviously there is temperature rise within the product.
My question is why does the agency list the exact model number and CFM rating 
of the fan even though it doesn't run at full speed and the product continues 
to function with a stalled rotor.
We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won't accept a manufacturers range 
of fans without testing each one.
All fans used are UL listed and the products are tested to IEC/UL 60065.

Your comments would be appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[John Woodgate]

In message 
80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com 
writes:


We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a 
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.


On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[McBurney, Ian]

John;

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I 
may be wrong.

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a 
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.

On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[John Woodgate]

In message 
ed08bb5be2d841e0a1b0ca499f924...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com 
writes:


I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body 
but I may be wrong.


It would surely be worthwhile to check whether UL have confirmed 
electrical safety, because if not, the test house is probably justified. 
So you would need to list all the fans that could be used, or find a 
less exacting test house.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Allen, Chris]

Hi Ian,

The last company I was with used to specify a single manufacturer's fan in the 
UL report including supply voltage / current / CFM) and then (with UL's 
agreement) include the words or any recognised equivalent component. 

During the factory inspections, if a fan was being fitted from a different 
manufacturer we would have to produce the fan specification to show that we met 
the requirements i.e. the fan was UL recognised, supply voltage was the same, 
current was equal to or less than specified in the report and the CFM was equal 
to or greater than specified.

Thanks,
Chris.

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 11:23
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
ed08bb5be2d841e0a1b0ca499f924...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body 
but I may be wrong.

It would surely be worthwhile to check whether UL have confirmed electrical 
safety, because if not, the test house is probably justified. 
So you would need to list all the fans that could be used, or find a less 
exacting test house.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[John Allen]

Ian

I think the critical factor may be the airflow rates at the reduced voltages
as this may well vary between various ostensibly similar fans of the same
nominal voltage.

The actual airflow patterns from the outputs of the various fans may also
differ due to differing blade profiles, etc.

Regards

John Allen
Compliance with Experience
W.London. UK

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 11:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I
may be wrong.

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a 
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.

On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum
ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex
UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3658/6909 - Release Date: 12/10/13

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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3658/6909 - Release Date: 12/10/13



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[McBurney, Ian]

John;

I agree the airflow rates will vary with applied voltage and blade profile but 
if the product continues to function safely with a stalled rotor why does it 
have to be listed in the critical component list.

Regards;

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



-Original Message-
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 13:31
To: McBurney, Ian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

Ian

I think the critical factor may be the airflow rates at the reduced voltages as 
this may well vary between various ostensibly similar fans of the same nominal 
voltage.

The actual airflow patterns from the outputs of the various fans may also 
differ due to differing blade profiles, etc.

Regards

John Allen
Compliance with Experience
W.London. UK

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: 13 December 2013 11:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I 
may be wrong.

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a 
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.

On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

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David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

-

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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3658/6909 - Release Date: 12/10/13

-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3658/6909 - Release Date: 12/10/13



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3658/6916 - Release Date: 12/13/13

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Instructions:  

Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[John Allen]

Ian

That's a very good question!

The only other things that I can currently think of are:

- The agency does not (want to?) accept the UL Recognition  (not Listing, I
suspect) for business political reasons because UL is a competitor (and
AFAIK, there is no compelling legal reason why they have to where components
and materials are concerned - but it's common business practice to do for
the sake of relationships with their own customers), 

- /or either the project engineer or his senior engineer are playing very
safe and don't want to trust anything they think they can't be 150% sure of

(and some agency engineers don't  have too much experience of dealing with
design approaches which are not exactly in line with what the standard
appears to mandate!. They are also bound by the defined operating procedures
of their agency, and this can be very frustrating in its own right - like
others here, I know because I have been there :-( )

Either way, have you tried getting a clear explanation from the agency as to
exactly why they are requiring this extra testing?

Regards

John Allen
Compliance with Experience
W.London, UK.

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 13:55
To: John Allen; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I agree the airflow rates will vary with applied voltage and blade profile
but if the product continues to function safely with a stalled rotor why
does it have to be listed in the critical component list.

Regards;

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



-Original Message-
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 13:31
To: McBurney, Ian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

Ian

I think the critical factor may be the airflow rates at the reduced voltages
as this may well vary between various ostensibly similar fans of the same
nominal voltage.

The actual airflow patterns from the outputs of the various fans may also
differ due to differing blade profiles, etc.

Regards

John Allen
Compliance with Experience
W.London. UK

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: 13 December 2013 11:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I
may be wrong.

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a 
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.

On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum
ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex
UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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Instructions:  

Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[John Woodgate]

In message 
ff0018ae2af54a2b95bfa760f8747...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com 
writes:


but if the product continues to function safely with a stalled rotor 
why does it have to be listed in the critical component list.


Why does the test house say it does? They have to justify their 
opinions. We can only guess, and even if we guess right, you are no 
further forward. You have to get their reason, in their words, and 
refute it.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[McBurney, Ian]

John;

I have often asked for the reasoning to many similar problems and get directed 
to an ambiguous clause in the standard that I read one way and the agency reads 
the other way and because there is no independent arbiter  I end up acquiescing 
as the whole process slows down and I am on a tight deadline to market.

regards

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 14:18
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
ff0018ae2af54a2b95bfa760f8747...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

but if the product continues to function safely with a stalled rotor 
why does it have to be listed in the critical component list.

Why does the test house say it does? They have to justify their opinions. We 
can only guess, and even if we guess right, you are no further forward. You 
have to get their reason, in their words, and refute it.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Brown,William]

A locked rotor test is considered an abnormal and measured temperatures are 
allowed to exceed the limits for normal operation. If that happens, then it 
proves a minimal amount of airflow is required to maintain safe temperatures 
and minimal CFMs become required.

That said, I've never seen a CPU fan be the make or break for safe temperatures 
(except maybe a laptop). It is likely you have a (written or unwritten) 
standard operating procedure that states what must be called out for fans and 
an engineer that is either unwilling or unable to justify removing the 
requirement.

After all, it is hard to find a regulatory engineer that can do both.

-Will

William L Brown Jr.  /  Engineering Manager - Regulatory and Compliance /  Tyco 
Security Products
Tel: +1 978 577 4205  /  Mobile: +1 978 727 7069

6 Technology Park Drive /  Westford, MA 01886  /  USA
willbr...@tycoint.com  /  www.tycosecurityproducts.com/SocialMedia.aspx  /  
www.tycosecurityproducts.com


Access Control, Video, Location-Based Tracking and Intrusion. UNIFIED.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for 
the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and 
privileged information or information otherwise protected by law. Any 
unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are 
not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and 
destroy all copies of the original message. Any applicable rights to privilege 
have not been waived.
.

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I agree the airflow rates will vary with applied voltage and blade profile but 
if the product continues to function safely with a stalled rotor why does it 
have to be listed in the critical component list.

Regards;

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



-Original Message-
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 13:31
To: McBurney, Ian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

Ian

I think the critical factor may be the airflow rates at the reduced voltages as 
this may well vary between various ostensibly similar fans of the same nominal 
voltage.

The actual airflow patterns from the outputs of the various fans may also 
differ due to differing blade profiles, etc.

Regards

John Allen
Compliance with Experience
W.London. UK

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: 13 December 2013 11:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I 
may be wrong.

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs
considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.

On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

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David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the 

Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[John Woodgate]

In message 
c8225bb6612e4cf382ba4b073e71d...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com 
writes:


I have often asked for the reasoning to many similar problems and get 
directed to an ambiguous clause in the standard that I read one way and 
the agency reads the other way and because there is no independent 
arbiter


You have to deal case-by-case; you may not win all arguments but you can 
win some. ***But there IS an arbiter***; the originating committee and 
that may well be accessible via members of this list.


So ask the crucial question!
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net
Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[John Allen]

Agreed on both counts!

John Allen
Sent from my Fonepad
"Brown,William"  wrote:>A locked rotor test is considered an abnormal and measured temperatures are allowed to exceed the limits for normal operation. If that happens, then it proves a minimal amount of airflow is required to maintain safe temperatures and minimal CFMs become required.
>
>That said, I've never seen a CPU fan be the make or break for safe temperatures (except maybe a laptop). It is likely you have a (written or unwritten) standard operating procedure that states what must be called out for fans and an engineer that is either unwilling or unable to justify removing the requirement.
>
>After all, it is hard to find a regulatory engineer that can do both.
>
>-Will
>
>William L Brown Jr.  /  Engineering Manager - Regulatory and Compliance /  Tyco Security Products
>Tel: +1 978 577 4205  /  Mobile: +1 978 727 7069
>
>6 Technology Park Drive /  Westford, MA 01886  /  USA
>willbr...@tycoint.com  /  www.tycosecurityproducts.com/SocialMedia.aspx  /  www.tycosecurityproducts.com
>
>
>Access Control, Video, Location-Based Tracking and Intrusion. UNIFIED.
>
>CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or information otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Any applicable rights to privilege have not been waived.
>.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
>Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:55 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query
>
>John;
>
>I agree the airflow rates will vary with applied voltage and blade profile but if the product continues to function "safely" with a stalled rotor why does it have to be listed in the critical component list.
>
>Regards;
>
>Ian McBurney
>Design & Compliance Engineer.
>
>Allen & Heath Ltd.
>Kernick Industrial Estate,
>Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
>T: 01326 372070
>E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
>Sent: 13 December 2013 13:31
>To: McBurney, Ian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: RE: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query
>
>Ian
>
>I think the critical factor may be the airflow rates at the reduced voltages as this may well vary between various ostensibly similar fans of the same nominal voltage.
>
>The actual airflow patterns from the outputs of the various fans may also differ due to differing blade profiles, etc.
>
>Regards
>
>John Allen
>Compliance with Experience
>W.London. UK
>
>-Original Message-
>From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
>Sent: 13 December 2013 11:05
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query
>
>John;
>
>I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I may be wrong.
>
>Ian McBurney
>Design & Compliance Engineer.
>
>Allen & Heath Ltd.
>Kernick Industrial Estate,
>Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
>T: 01326 372070
>E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
>Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query
>
>In message
><80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
>, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, "McBurney, Ian" 
>writes:
>
>>We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs
>>considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a
>>manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.
>
>On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
>--
>OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
>
>-
>
>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>
>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
>Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
>Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
>For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>Scott Douglas 
>Mike Cantwell 
>
>For policy questions, send mail to:
>Jim Bacher:  

Re: [PSES] [External] Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Additionally, most agencies have a process to repeal or elevate a decision 
beyond the engineer that you are directly working with.

Josh

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
c8225bb6612e4cf382ba4b073e71d...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

I have often asked for the reasoning to many similar problems and get 
directed to an ambiguous clause in the standard that I read one way and 
the agency reads the other way and because there is no independent 
arbiter

You have to deal case-by-case; you may not win all arguments but you can win 
some. ***But there IS an arbiter***; the originating committee and that may 
well be accessible via members of this list.

So ask the crucial question!
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  j.bac...@ieee.org
David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
emc-p...@ieee.org

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Will is correct.  I have gotten around this type of fan issue in the past by 
simply running the normal heating test with the fan disconnected.  If you can 
pass normal temperature rise limits without the fan then your argument becomes 
easier as the fan is no longer critical, it is simply a design robustness 
feature at that point.

For the device to operate normally and to operate within the limits are not 
always the same.

Josh


-Original Message-
From: Brown,William [mailto:willbr...@tycoint.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

A locked rotor test is considered an abnormal and measured temperatures are 
allowed to exceed the limits for normal operation. If that happens, then it 
proves a minimal amount of airflow is required to maintain safe temperatures 
and minimal CFMs become required.

That said, I've never seen a CPU fan be the make or break for safe temperatures 
(except maybe a laptop). It is likely you have a (written or unwritten) 
standard operating procedure that states what must be called out for fans and 
an engineer that is either unwilling or unable to justify removing the 
requirement.

After all, it is hard to find a regulatory engineer that can do both.

-Will

William L Brown Jr.  /  Engineering Manager - Regulatory and Compliance /  Tyco 
Security Products
Tel: +1 978 577 4205  /  Mobile: +1 978 727 7069

6 Technology Park Drive /  Westford, MA 01886  /  USA willbr...@tycoint.com  /  
www.tycosecurityproducts.com/SocialMedia.aspx  /  www.tycosecurityproducts.com


Access Control, Video, Location-Based Tracking and Intrusion. UNIFIED.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for 
the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and 
privileged information or information otherwise protected by law. Any 
unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are 
not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and 
destroy all copies of the original message. Any applicable rights to privilege 
have not been waived.
.

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I agree the airflow rates will vary with applied voltage and blade profile but 
if the product continues to function safely with a stalled rotor why does it 
have to be listed in the critical component list.

Regards;

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



-Original Message-
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 13:31
To: McBurney, Ian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

Ian

I think the critical factor may be the airflow rates at the reduced voltages as 
this may well vary between various ostensibly similar fans of the same nominal 
voltage.

The actual airflow patterns from the outputs of the various fans may also 
differ due to differing blade profiles, etc.

Regards

John Allen
Compliance with Experience
W.London. UK

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: 13 December 2013 11:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I 
may be wrong.

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a 
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.

On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Charlie Blackham]

Ian

It doesn't function safely with the stalled rotor, it functions not 
dangerously. In fact the standard doesn't really care whether it functions, 
just whether it's unsafe.
Do you need the fans to meet maximum temperature limits in normal operation, or 
just to lower temperatures and prolong component life?

If you need a certain CFM to ensure that temperature limits for normal 
operation are met, then you will need to have one or more fans listed as 
critical components. But if you don't, then  there shouldn't be an issue with 
whatever fan you use.

Also, since you have variable speed fans, how is the temperature test being 
done - at ambient with deltas or in a thermal chamber?

Regards
Charlie

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 13:55
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I agree the airflow rates will vary with applied voltage and blade profile but 
if the product continues to function safely with a stalled rotor why does it 
have to be listed in the critical component list.

Regards;

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



-Original Message-
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 13:31
To: McBurney, Ian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

Ian

I think the critical factor may be the airflow rates at the reduced voltages as 
this may well vary between various ostensibly similar fans of the same nominal 
voltage.

The actual airflow patterns from the outputs of the various fans may also 
differ due to differing blade profiles, etc.

Regards

John Allen
Compliance with Experience
W.London. UK

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: 13 December 2013 11:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I 
may be wrong.

Ian McBurney
Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, McBurney, Ian ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
writes:

We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a 
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.

On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] WEEE Directive - user information

[Nick Williams]

Article 14 of the new WEEE Directive requires manufacturers to provide 
information to product users on the process and benefits of dealing with WEEE 
in accordance with the Directive (as opposed to just thowing it away with other 
household waste). 

This requirement is not new - it was previously contained in article 10 of the 
old WEEE Directive. 

The Directive gives Member States freedom to decide how to require 
manufacturers to deliver this information and UK government guidance on the 
Directive makes it clear that providing a web link to the information in the 
user instructions, with the bulk of the information accessible via the web 
link, is an acceptable solution. 

I’d be very interested to hear what the Group’s experience of the requirements 
of other Member States is in this regard. 

Thanks

Nick. 

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Peter Tarver]

Ian -

Another consideration, since you have more than one fan, is that you can
disable *all* fans simultaneously to demonstrate that no cooling is
necessary for safety reasons.  This is a multiple fault scenario, but it's
at your discretion to do so to prove your case and eliminates the need for
cfm ratings.

Stalled rotor testing should not be needed in the end product unless:
1) the test was not done on the fan when it was safety certified
(very common, even among UL Recognized fans)
2) the fan if it is not safety certified at all (you state the
fans you're using are UL Listed, but I think you mean UL Recognized)
3) the fan is a type whose motor current under stalled conditions
can overload another component of the power supply (the impulse start dc
motors I've tested can go an interminably long time without getting more
than a smidgeon above the local ambient temperature)

Disabling (removing power) serves most of the thermal concerns.

There are flammability issues that may need to be met, as mentioned by
another poster, and providing the manufacturer and model can provide a
level of traceability to the relevant materials.

If you can successfully eliminate the need for cfm ratings and stalled
rotor testing, your only concerns are reduced to flammability and loading
of the power supply.  In some cases, you can use the fan ratings alone to
meet the standard's and certifier's requirements.

As a final word, alternate or substitution of components is an ongoing
issue for everyone involved in product safety certifications.  You can try
to have a handful of alternates ready when the certification evaluation is
performed and still have this concern because there's always a less
expensive alternative available.


Peter Tarver


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[PSES] DC Boat Motor

[Mark Schmidt]

Hi Group,
I am a bit confused about what standard may apply for DC powered Boat Motor. I 
am being told that EN55012 applies. I am not convinced. Thoughts?

Thank you ,
Mark Schmidt

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Re: [PSES] DC Boat Motor

[Doug Powell]

Hi Mark,

One more clarification please.  Is this for a Toy Boat, either remote 
controlled or otherwise?  Or is it something like a tolling motor for a real 
boat?

thanks, –doug

Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01



From: Mark Schmidt 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 10:07 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: [PSES] DC Boat Motor

Hi Group,


I am a bit confused about what standard may apply for DC powered Boat Motor. I 
am being told that EN55012 applies. I am not convinced. Thoughts?

 

Thank you ,

Mark Schmidt

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Re: [PSES] DC Boat Motor

[John Woodgate]

In message 119fa9545c6e264b830c4582886d11908871b...@quimby.dw.local, 
dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, Mark Schmidt mark.schm...@dornerworks.com 
writes:




I am a bit confused about what standard may apply for DC powered Boat 
Motor. I am being told that EN55012 applies. I am not convinced. 
Thoughts


The Scope (which you can see for free on the IEC web site) says:

b)  boats propelled by an internal combustion engine, electrical means 
or both (see 3.2).


... among other things.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] Country specific product regulations

[Gartman, W. Richard]

Fellow Product safety professionals,

I have a product with harmonized tariff code 
8504.50.4000http://hts.usitc.gov/Table%2085.xml#8504.50.4000, I need to find 
out what regulations [EMC/product safety/restricted material/testing/product 
registration/etc.] that may apply to this product for Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. 
I am looking for the regulations and if possible the website where I can get 
them. This product is a gang charger for 10 calculators. The calculators which 
have lithium rechargeable batteries [1200mAHr] are placed in the unit and it is 
plugged into an AC adapter [output voltage 5.9V). The voltage control and 
recharge circuit is in the calculator.

I appreciate your comments and advise.

Thank you
W. Richard Gartman, MS, CSP
Product Stewardship Manager
Texas Instruments, Education Technology
13532 N Central Expressway, Dallas, TX 75243
Office: 214-567-7927   Email: 
rgart...@ti.commailto:rgart...@ti.com
www.education.ti.com/us/productstewardshiphttp://education.ti.com/us/productstewardship
www.ti.com/ccrhttp://www.ti.com/ccr
Please consider the environment before printing this email. There is only one 
earth - don't waste it.http://education.ti.com/us/productstewardship


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Re: [PSES] DC Boat Motor

[Mark Schmidt]

I am not testing the boat just the motor. Other things is defined by combustion 
engines only that can be used in residential areas not DC electrical motors. 

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 1:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] DC Boat Motor

In message 119fa9545c6e264b830c4582886d11908871b...@quimby.dw.local, 
dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, Mark Schmidt mark.schm...@dornerworks.com 
writes:


I am a bit confused about what standard may apply for DC powered Boat 
Motor. I am being told that EN55012 applies. I am not convinced. 
Thoughts

The Scope (which you can see for free on the IEC web site) says:

b)  boats propelled by an internal combustion engine, electrical means 
or both (see 3.2).

... among other things.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Richard Nute]

Hello Ian:


The first question is whether or not the fan is necessary
to meet the temperature requirements of the standard.

If yes, then the fan and its alternates must be tested to
prove that the end-product meets the temperature requirements.
A UL-certified fan should reduce the testing requirements.

The fact that you put a resistor in series with the motor
does not affect this requirement.  However, in stalled rotor
condition, the resistor must not exceed its power rating.

The CFM rating of the fan is not applicable with a resistor
in series with the fan.  So, if meeting temperature requirements
with the fan, it would be necessary to meet temperature
requirements with each different fan (because the CFM cannot be
predicted with a resistor in series).  Model numbers of tested
fans would be required, although I don't know why the CFM rating
of each fan would be required since compliance with the
temperature requirements would not be dependent on the CFM
rating.

If no, then the fan can be removed (or disconnected) and the
end-product should meet all the applicable safety requirements,
including the temperature requirements.  Under this condition,
the fan is just another functional component.  Ask the cert
house to perform all testing without the fan.

However, the fans should meet the stalled rotor requirements
and, if applicable, the plastic flame rating requirements.  These
should be a part of the UL certification.  Also, the series
resistor must be rated for the power dissipation in the stalled
rotor condition.  This may require testing each alternate fan;
if so, each different fan must be identified.


With best wishes for the holiday season,
Rich



On 12/13/2013 2:02 AM, McBurney, Ian wrote:


This is a question for the safety testing engineers.

We have products that contain 12V/24V DC cooling fans that cool either 
the PSU or processing circuits.


The fan speeds are reduced with basically a series resistor to reduce 
audio noise.


The safety testing agency demands to know the exact model number and 
CFM of each fan even though the products continue to function during 
the stalled rotor test. Obviously there is temperature rise within the 
product.


My question is why does the agency list the exact model number and CFM 
rating of the fan even though it doesn't run at full speed and the 
product continues to function with a stalled rotor.


We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
considerable test agency costs as the agency won't accept a 
manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.


All fans used are UL listed and the products are tested to IEC/UL 60065.

Your comments would be appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney

Design  Compliance Engineer.

Allen  Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



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Re: [PSES] DC Boat Motor

[John Woodgate]

In message 119fa9545c6e264b830c4582886d11908871b...@quimby.dw.local, 
dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, Mark Schmidt mark.schm...@dornerworks.com 
writes:


I am not testing the boat just the motor. Other things is defined by 
combustion engines only that can be used in residential areas not DC 
electrical motors.


In that case, why do you need to test it? It's not a finished product 
but a component.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Nondum ex silvis sumus
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Country specific product regulations

[Brian Oconnell]

1. My employer also makes 'ganged' chargers, and this is not the HTC that my 
customer used. See if the ITC can advise on your HT code.
2. Japan, Korea, and Taiwan have their national versions of 60950 and CISPR.
3. Talk to the International Approvals office of your friendly neighborhood 
one-stop agency/Notified Body. Too much to cover in a single message.
4. All three have variations on the UN regs for Li batteries.
5. UL1642 is deprecated, so if batteries must be IS or whatever, use 62133.
6. I have seen TI app notes on international approvals of battery chargers.
7. If an external power source and the embedded chargers have 
CISPR/VCCI/safety; and the 'gang' assembly are just cups to hold device, and 
the p/s meets clause 2.5 of 60950; and the batteries are rated IS; and the 
charger is power-limited - than the assembly is a mechanical component, where 
only RoHS-type regs would be applied. See #2 for p/s and charger.
8. If an image of the 'gang' assembly is in the user manual, or is described, 
the Korea EMC report will probably require that configuration to be included.
9. When is TI going to make a decent RPN calculator for engineers? (the TI8x do 
not count)

Brian

From: Gartman, W. Richard [mailto:rgart...@ti.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 11:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Country specific product regulations

I have a product with harmonized tariff code 8504.50.4000, I need to find out 
what regulations [EMC/product safety/restricted material/testing/product 
registration/etc.] that may apply to this product for Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. 
I am looking for the regulations and if possible the website where I can get 
them. This product is a gang charger for 10 calculators. The calculators which 
have lithium rechargeable batteries [1200mAHr] are placed in the unit and it is 
plugged into an AC adapter [output voltage 5.9V). The voltage control and 
recharge circuit is in the calculator.

I appreciate your comments and advise. 

Thank you
W. Richard Gartman, MS, CSP

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