Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[John Woodgate]

In message , 
dated Wed, 29 Oct 2014, "ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen" 
 writes:


The cause of this confusion is that we are used to declare conformity 
with a directive,


where IMHO one should declare conformity with the implementation 
thereof in law in a member state.


It is forbidden to apply logic to EU administration.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[John Woodgate]

In message , 
dated Wed, 29 Oct 2014, Charlie Blackham  
writes:


I don’t have a definitive reference for the “minimum one member 
state” comment, but it was in a new EMC Directive presentation given 
by UK government BIS department to IEEE meeting March.


I asked for the provenance for that, and was told unofficially that it's 
a legal opinion.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

The cause of this confusion is that we are used to declare conformity with a 
directive,

where IMHO one should declare conformity with the implementation thereof in law 
in a member state.

 

Gert Gremmen

ce-test

 

 

Van: Charlie Blackham [mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com] 
Verzonden: woensdag 29 oktober 2014 21:01
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

 

Tony

 

Some definitive statement regarding  implementation of Directives” is at 
http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/directives/directives_en.htm

 

What is a directive? 

EU directives lay down certain end results that must be achieved in every 
Member State. National authorities have to adapt their laws to meet these 
goals, but are free to decide how to do so. Directives may concern one or more 
EU countries, or all of them.
Each directive specifies the date by which the national laws must be adapted - 
giving national authorities the room for manoeuvre within the deadlines 
necessary to take account of differing national situations.
Directives are used to bring different national laws into line with each other, 
and are particularly common in matters that affect the operation of the single 
market (e.g. product safety standards). 

 

What are "national implementing measures"? 

These are texts officially adopted by the authorities in a Member State to 
incorporate the provisions in a directive into national law. 

All such texts sent to us by national authorities are scrutinised to ensure 
that they will actually implement in that Member State all the measures 
required in the directive

 

Also, 
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/229763/bis-13-775-transposition-guidance-how-to-implement-european-directives-effectively-revised.pdf
 

 

Unlike Directives, EU “regulations” are law from moment they are published and 
do not need implementation.

 

I don’t have a definitive reference for the “minimum one member state” comment, 
but it was in a new EMC Directive presentation given by UK government BIS 
department to IEEE meeting March.

 

Regards

Charlie

 

From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com] 
Sent: 29 October 2014 15:00
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

 

Hi Charlie,

 

Thanks for your assistance, but I still can't see anything preventing one 
claiming compliance to the RED. It's an EU directive which does appear to be 
currently 'in force' across Europe, though not yet 'enforceable' by law.

 

So why can't you claim compliance to the RED (assuming you do)? To coin a 
phrase... "there's no law against it". Or is there?

 

See my ongoing questions below.

 

Regards,

Tony

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 12:59 PM
From: "Charlie Blackham" 
To: "Anthony Thomson" , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" 

Subject: RE: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

Tony

Article 48 says that the existing legislation (R&TTE or EMC+LVD) may be used 
for equipment within scope of RED until 13 June 2017, provided it was on the 
market before 16 June 2016.

T: Yes, I can see that Article 48 permits optionally applying the R&TTED (et. 
al.), to new products, for 1 year after the RED becomes enforceable under law 
on 13 June 2016. However, I can't see how this sets the earliest date that 
compliance against the RED can be claimed, and this is what I'm trying to get 
to.

Article 49 says that RED shall be applied from 13 June 2016 (in other words, it 
is won’t be applicable until then). 

T: Does Article 49 say the RED applies from 13 June 2016? To me, it tells 
Member States to have everything in place to comply with the directive by 12 
June 2016 and start enforcement on 13 June 2016. It does not prevent companies 
complying before that date, does it? I'd have thought that companies are at 
liberty to comply with requirements before thay becomes legally mandatory and 
enforceable.

T: Article 51 says the RED "enters into force" 20 days after publication in the 
OJ which equates to 11 June 2014. So the RED is currently "in force". Sadly 
there is no definitions of "in force or "into force" within the directive, so 
common definitions needs to apply. So from Article 51, isn't the RED already 
'in force', though not yet enforceable under law?.

T:  So I can see that under Article 49 that there cannot be any laws in place 
to enforce the RED's application until 13 June 2016. Surely however you can 
claim conformance before then, you just cant be penalised for not doing so 
(considering the limitation of enforcement of Article 48).

 However . . . . It’s “only” a Directives. Directives have to be implemented 
into National Law, in at least one member state, before they can be used – 
that’s the part that currently stops you.

T: Isn't that wha

Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[Charlie Blackham]

Tony

Some definitive statement regarding  implementation of Directives” is at 
http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/directives/directives_en.htm

What is a directive?
EU directives lay down certain end results that must be achieved in every 
Member State. National authorities have to adapt their laws to meet these 
goals, but are free to decide how to do so. Directives may concern one or more 
EU countries, or all of them.
Each directive specifies the date by which the national laws must be adapted - 
giving national authorities the room for manoeuvre within the deadlines 
necessary to take account of differing national situations.
Directives are used to bring different national laws into line with each other, 
and are particularly common in matters that affect the operation of the single 
market (e.g. product safety standards).

What are "national implementing measures"?
These are texts officially adopted by the authorities in a Member State to 
incorporate the provisions in a directive into national law.
All such texts sent to us by national authorities are scrutinised to ensure 
that they will actually implement in that Member State all the measures 
required in the directive

Also, 
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/229763/bis-13-775-transposition-guidance-how-to-implement-european-directives-effectively-revised.pdf

Unlike Directives, EU “regulations” are law from moment they are published and 
do not need implementation.

I don’t have a definitive reference for the “minimum one member state” comment, 
but it was in a new EMC Directive presentation given by UK government BIS 
department to IEEE meeting March.

Regards
Charlie

From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com]
Sent: 29 October 2014 15:00
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for your assistance, but I still can't see anything preventing one 
claiming compliance to the RED. It's an EU directive which does appear to be 
currently 'in force' across Europe, though not yet 'enforceable' by law.

So why can't you claim compliance to the RED (assuming you do)? To coin a 
phrase... "there's no law against it". Or is there?

See my ongoing questions below.

Regards,
Tony
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 12:59 PM
From: "Charlie Blackham" 
mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com>>
To: "Anthony Thomson" mailto:ton...@europe.com>>, 
"EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: RE: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe
Tony
Article 48 says that the existing legislation (R&TTE or EMC+LVD) may be used 
for equipment within scope of RED until 13 June 2017, provided it was on the 
market before 16 June 2016.
T: Yes, I can see that Article 48 permits optionally applying the R&TTED (et. 
al.), to new products, for 1 year after the RED becomes enforceable under law 
on 13 June 2016. However, I can't see how this sets the earliest date that 
compliance against the RED can be claimed, and this is what I'm trying to get 
to.
Article 49 says that RED shall be applied from 13 June 2016 (in other words, it 
is won’t be applicable until then).
T: Does Article 49 say the RED applies from 13 June 2016? To me, it tells 
Member States to have everything in place to comply with the directive by 12 
June 2016 and start enforcement on 13 June 2016. It does not prevent companies 
complying before that date, does it? I'd have thought that companies are at 
liberty to comply with requirements before thay becomes legally mandatory and 
enforceable.
T: Article 51 says the RED "enters into force" 20 days after publication in the 
OJ which equates to 11 June 2014. So the RED is currently "in force". Sadly 
there is no definitions of "in force or "into force" within the directive, so 
common definitions needs to apply. So from Article 51, isn't the RED already 
'in force', though not yet enforceable under law?.
T:  So I can see that under Article 49 that there cannot be any laws in place 
to enforce the RED's application until 13 June 2016. Surely however you can 
claim conformance before then, you just cant be penalised for not doing so 
(considering the limitation of enforcement of Article 48).
 However . . . . It’s “only” a Directives. Directives have to be implemented 
into National Law, in at least one member state, before they can be used – 
that’s the part that currently stops you.
T: Isn't that what stops Member States enforcing a Directive? Surely companies 
can still optionally conform to it, after all the RED seems to have been in 
force since 11 June 2014 (albeit not enforceable until 13 June 2016 or 13 June 
2017 if you chose to apply the R&TTED).
T: Where does this thing about "at least one member state" come from? I'd like 
a black and white reference for this. It seems to be something 

Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[John Woodgate]

In message 
-lxa05>, dated Wed, 29 Oct 2014, Anthony Thomson  
writes:


So why can't you claim compliance to the RED (assuming you do)? To coin 
a phrase... "there's no law against it". Or is there


False advertising? The point is that since RED isn't a law and there is 
no law derived from it until one member state makes one, claiming 
compliance with it is of no meaning. You might as well claim compliance 
with Magna Carta.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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formats), large files, etc.

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Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[John Woodgate]

In message 
-lxa15>, dated Wed, 29 Oct 2014, Anthony Thomson  
writes:


I'm completely confused by this situation and some clarity really would 
be appreciated. Where in the directive does it say you that can't 
currently claim compliance to the RED (well, as of 11 June 2015 - see 
below).


It is very confusing and that affects even government agencies. Many 
things in EU legislation are not explicit, so for those things a legal 
opinion is required. But legal opinions can be abstruse and even 
inconsistent.


I am told that the British government works on the basis of Directives 
being instructions to member states to make laws, not laws in themselves 
(as EU Regulations are). So no *law* exists until a Directive has been 
implemented in national law by at least one member state. Until that 
happens, RED has no significance to industry, national regulatory bodies 
or the public.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[Anthony Thomson]

Hi Charlie,

 

Thanks for your assistance, but I still can't see anything preventing one claiming compliance to the RED. It's an EU directive which does appear to be currently 'in force' across Europe, though not yet 'enforceable' by law.

 

So why can't you claim compliance to the RED (assuming you do)? To coin a phrase... "there's no law against it". Or is there?

 


See my ongoing questions below.

 

Regards,

Tony




Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 12:59 PM
From: "Charlie Blackham" 
To: "Anthony Thomson" , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" 
Subject: RE: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe




Tony

Article 48 says that the existing legislation (R&TTE or EMC+LVD) may be used for equipment within scope of RED until 13 June 2017, provided it was on the market before 16 June 2016.

T: Yes, I can see that Article 48 permits optionally applying the R&TTED (et. al.), to new products, for 1 year after the RED becomes enforceable under law on 13 June 2016. However, I can't see how this sets the earliest date that compliance against the RED can be claimed, and this is what I'm trying to get to.

Article 49 says that RED shall be applied from 13 June 2016 (in other words, it is won’t be applicable until then). 

T: Does Article 49 say the RED applies from 13 June 2016? To me, it tells Member States to have everything in place to comply with the directive by 12 June 2016 and start enforcement on 13 June 2016. It does not prevent companies complying before that date, does it? I'd have thought that companies are at liberty to comply with requirements before thay becomes legally mandatory and enforceable.

T: Article 51 says the RED "enters into force" 20 days after publication in the OJ which equates to 11 June 2014. So the RED is currently "in force". Sadly there is no definitions of "in force or "into force" within the directive, so common definitions needs to apply. So from Article 51, isn't the RED already 'in force', though not yet enforceable under law?.

T:  So I can see that under Article 49 that there cannot be any laws in place to enforce the RED's application until 13 June 2016. Surely however you can claim conformance before then, you just cant be penalised for not doing so (considering the limitation of enforcement of Article 48).

 However . . . . It’s “only” a Directives. Directives have to be implemented into National Law, in at least one member state, before they can be used – that’s the part that currently stops you.

T: Isn't that what stops Member States enforcing a Directive? Surely companies can still optionally conform to it, after all the RED seems to have been in force since 11 June 2014 (albeit not enforceable until 13 June 2016 or 13 June 2017 if you chose to apply the R&TTED).

T: Where does this thing about "at least one member state" come from? I'd like a black and white reference for this. It seems to be something lots of people say without any solid foundation. How can an EU directive be legally enforceable in one EU country and not another? Isn't it 'all or nothing' (hence the 13 June 2016 date in the RED).

 RED is not a simple NLF alignment like 2014/30/EU and 2014/35/EU because there is also a change of scope and a number of items are moving into RED from EMC/LVD and out of R&TTE into EMC/LVD.

 There are commission workshops on RED and EMCD planned for November, and issues around transition are on the agenda.

 

Regards

Charlie

 



From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com]
Sent: 29 October 2014 12:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe



 



All,



 



I'm completely confused by this situation and some clarity really would be appreciated. Where in the directive does it say you that can't currently claim compliance to the RED (well, as of 11 June 2015 - see below).



 



I've heard Amund's comments below from other sources too, but I cannot find any basis for this in the directive.



 



Articles 48 through 50 mentioned by Nick merely state:



1. That the authorities cannot "impede" goods based on the RED until 13 June 2016 (Article 48).



2. That EU countries RED enforcement laws shall be in place before, and applied from 13 June 2016 (Article 49).



3. The R&TTED is repealed on 13 June 2016.



 



None say you can't claim compliance to the RED.



 



Now... Article 51 states that the RED shall enter into force on the 20th day following its publication in the OJ. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the RED was published in the the OJ on 22 May 2014 and has therefore been in force from the 11 June 2015.



 



So if it's in force, providing you meet the provisions of the RED, which article(s) prevents claiming conformity? After all, it is (interpretation, which may well be wrong) in force?



 




I admit that I haven't scrutinised the whole document and all its references, so I 

Re: [PSES] CE-magazine

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<8a265bf9a24b459ca949e851c083f...@bn1pr03mb122.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

, dated Wed, 29 Oct 2014, Ted Eckert  writes:

Haven't you heard of the Domestic Ocelot Control Organization, Parma 
Ohio and Cleveland's Other Southern Suburbs?


I'm a Founder Member.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[Crane, Lauren]

Tony,

The ‘trick’ is that directives are not “addressed” to manufacturers, or any 
other economic actor, but rather they are addressed to member states of the EU. 
Therefore, ‘coming into effect’ means member states have to consider themselves 
put on notice to do what the directive instructs them to do from the given 
entry into force date.

The RED says (Art 49.1) that member states have to adopt legislative 
instruments to realize the directive and have such instruments apply from 
13Jun2016. Therefore all member states are expected to begin enforcement on 
commerce on that date, but If no member state does this (highly unlikely), then 
the RED will have no impact on commerce.

The best plan is to declare to RED on or after 13Jun2016 (just assume some 
member state is going to follow their instructions), but Art. 48 says that 
stuff conforming to the old rules (e.g., RTTED) should be allowed in commerce 
until 13Jun2017.


Regards,
Lauren Crane
KLA-Tencor

From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 7:34 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

All,

I'm completely confused by this situation and some clarity really would be 
appreciated. Where in the directive does it say you that can't currently claim 
compliance to the RED (well, as of 11 June 2015 - see below).

I've heard Amund's comments below from other sources too, but I cannot find any 
basis for this in the directive.

Articles 48 through 50 mentioned by Nick merely state:
1. That the authorities cannot "impede" goods based on the RED until 13 June 
2016 (Article 48).
2. That EU countries RED enforcement laws shall be in place before, and applied 
from 13 June 2016 (Article 49).
3. The R&TTED is repealed on 13 June 2016.

None say you can't claim compliance to the RED.

Now... Article 51 states that the RED shall enter into force on the 20th day 
following its publication in the OJ. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe 
the RED was published in the the OJ on 22 May 2014 and has therefore been in 
force from the 11 June 2015.

So if it's in force, providing you meet the provisions of the RED, which 
article(s) prevents claiming conformity? After all, it is (interpretation, 
which may well be wrong) in force?

I admit that I haven't scrutinised the whole document and all its references, 
so I presume that I have missed some key facts. The benefit of greater 
experience really would be appreciated.

Tony

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 8:08 AM
From: "Hooper, Nick" mailto:nick.hoo...@ul.com>>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe
Hi
Articles 48 to 50 will also be implemented as part of the National Law, hence 
enforcing the dates below
Best regards
Nick


From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: 29 October 2014 07:52
To: Hooper, Nick; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: SV: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

RED applies from when the first EU/EEA member state has implemented the 
directive into national law?

#Amund


Fra: Hooper, Nick [mailto:nick.hoo...@ul.com]
Sendt: 28. oktober 2014 12:04
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell 
wireless devices into Europe

Hello everyone.

I have been in discussion with the EU Commission and ADCO chairman as there 
seems to be an amount of misunderstanding on when you can declare compliance to 
the RED.  I explained to Lucio that we have seen a few cases of DoC and NB 
opinions to the new RED, and therefore had a question on the validity of these 
documents.
Below is the response received from the ADCO R&TTE Chairman.

“Dear Nick
We have already had such problems and administrative non compliances ☺
The new Directive (RED) is currently not applicable (will be applicable to 
products first placed on market as of 13 June 2016).  Hence the manufacturers 
cannot use, right now (i.e. for products placed on market before 13 June 2016), 
the references of RED (new Directive).
Best regards
Lucio

Lucio Cocciantelli
ADCO R&TTE Chairman”

Please ensure you read Artcile 48 to 50 of the RED, and pass this information 
on asap.

Notified Bodies should not be issuing Opinions to the RED until they are 
listed, on the yet to be published, NANDO database for RED Notified Bodies.  As 
the accreditation assessments will be taking place over the next year, it is 
unlikely the RED NANDO list will be published until late 2015 / early 2016

Nick Hooper BSc(Eng) CEng MIET
Chairman R&TTE CA

UL
Grove House Business Centre, Chineham Court, Lutyens,
Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG24 8AG, England



This e-mail may con

Re: [PSES] CE-magazine

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

What's going on with docopocoss?   Just when I thought I had it figured out.
-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:29 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] CE-magazine

Haven't you heard of the Domestic Ocelot Control Organization, Parma Ohio and 
Cleveland's Other Southern Suburbs? If it were not for this group, ocelots 
would have long ago overrun Parma, Seven Hills, North Royalton and Middleburgh 
Heights! 

This email message and attachments may contain confidential and proprietary 
information.  Any unauthorized use is prohibited.  If you are not the intended 
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of 
the original message and attachments.

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] CE-magazine

In message <004f01cff2de$8a30cff0$9e926fd0$@cox.net>, dated Tue, 28 Oct 2014, 
Ed Price  writes:

>But Ghery, it?s not really all that bad; there are only 17,576 
>permutations of TLA?s.

That's the trouble; there aren't enough so they get re-used. That won't happen 
to docopocoss!
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] CE-magazine

[Ted Eckert]

Haven't you heard of the Domestic Ocelot Control Organization, Parma Ohio and 
Cleveland's Other Southern Suburbs? If it were not for this group, ocelots 
would have long ago overrun Parma, Seven Hills, North Royalton and Middleburgh 
Heights! 

This email message and attachments may contain confidential and proprietary 
information.  Any unauthorized use is prohibited.  If you are not the intended 
recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of 
the original message and attachments.

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] CE-magazine

In message <004f01cff2de$8a30cff0$9e926fd0$@cox.net>, dated Tue, 28 Oct 2014, 
Ed Price  writes:

>But Ghery, it?s not really all that bad; there are only 17,576 
>permutations of TLA?s.

That's the trouble; there aren't enough so they get re-used. That won't happen 
to docopocoss!
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] Machinery Start warning

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Hi Folks,

The EC Machinery Directive 1.2.2. Control devices states

"Machinery must be fitted with indicators as required for safe operation. The 
operator must be able to read
them from the control position.

>From each control position, the operator must be able to ensure that no-one is 
>in the danger zones, or the
control system must be designed and constructed in such a way that starting is 
prevented while someone is in
the danger zone.

If neither of these possibilities is applicable, before the machinery starts, 
an acoustic and/or visual warning
signal must be given. The exposed persons must have time to leave the danger 
zone or prevent the machinery
starting up."

EN 60204-1 Safety of Machinery Standard does not identify specific requirements 
for a startup warning however it does provide the generic requirements for 
indication in 10.3.3 Flashing lights and displays.

My question is does anyone know of any similar requirements for visual and/or 
audible machine start warnings like last paragraph in MD 1.2.2 that are 
required by OSHA or other USA requirements?  I've not found anything like this 
in NFPA 79 or any OSHA regulations.  I suspect it's there somewhere but I've 
not found it yet.   thanks

David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE
Product Development Manager

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Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[Charlie Blackham]

Tony

Article 48 says that the existing legislation (R&TTE or EMC+LVD) may be used 
for equipment within scope of RED until 13 June 2017, provided it was on the 
market before 16 June 2016.

Article 49 says that RED shall be applied from 13 June 2016 (in other words, it 
is won’t be applicable until then).

However . . . . It’s “only” a Directives. Directives have to be implemented 
into National Law, in at least one member state, before they can be used – 
that’s the part that currently stops you.

RED is not a simple NLF alignment like 2014/30/EU and 2014/35/EU because there 
is also a change of scope and a number of items are moving into RED from 
EMC/LVD and out of R&TTE into EMC/LVD.

There are commission workshops on RED and EMCD planned for November, and issues 
around transition are on the agenda.

Regards
Charlie

From: Anthony Thomson [mailto:ton...@europe.com]
Sent: 29 October 2014 12:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

All,

I'm completely confused by this situation and some clarity really would be 
appreciated. Where in the directive does it say you that can't currently claim 
compliance to the RED (well, as of 11 June 2015 - see below).

I've heard Amund's comments below from other sources too, but I cannot find any 
basis for this in the directive.

Articles 48 through 50 mentioned by Nick merely state:
1. That the authorities cannot "impede" goods based on the RED until 13 June 
2016 (Article 48).
2. That EU countries RED enforcement laws shall be in place before, and applied 
from 13 June 2016 (Article 49).
3. The R&TTED is repealed on 13 June 2016.

None say you can't claim compliance to the RED.

Now... Article 51 states that the RED shall enter into force on the 20th day 
following its publication in the OJ. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe 
the RED was published in the the OJ on 22 May 2014 and has therefore been in 
force from the 11 June 2015.

So if it's in force, providing you meet the provisions of the RED, which 
article(s) prevents claiming conformity? After all, it is (interpretation, 
which may well be wrong) in force?

I admit that I haven't scrutinised the whole document and all its references, 
so I presume that I have missed some key facts. The benefit of greater 
experience really would be appreciated.

Tony

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 8:08 AM
From: "Hooper, Nick" mailto:nick.hoo...@ul.com>>
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe
Hi
Articles 48 to 50 will also be implemented as part of the National Law, hence 
enforcing the dates below
Best regards
Nick


From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: 29 October 2014 07:52
To: Hooper, Nick; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: SV: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

RED applies from when the first EU/EEA member state has implemented the 
directive into national law?

#Amund


Fra: Hooper, Nick [mailto:nick.hoo...@ul.com]
Sendt: 28. oktober 2014 12:04
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell 
wireless devices into Europe

Hello everyone.

I have been in discussion with the EU Commission and ADCO chairman as there 
seems to be an amount of misunderstanding on when you can declare compliance to 
the RED.  I explained to Lucio that we have seen a few cases of DoC and NB 
opinions to the new RED, and therefore had a question on the validity of these 
documents.
Below is the response received from the ADCO R&TTE Chairman.

“Dear Nick
We have already had such problems and administrative non compliances ☺
The new Directive (RED) is currently not applicable (will be applicable to 
products first placed on market as of 13 June 2016).  Hence the manufacturers 
cannot use, right now (i.e. for products placed on market before 13 June 2016), 
the references of RED (new Directive).
Best regards
Lucio

Lucio Cocciantelli
ADCO R&TTE Chairman”

Please ensure you read Artcile 48 to 50 of the RED, and pass this information 
on asap.

Notified Bodies should not be issuing Opinions to the RED until they are 
listed, on the yet to be published, NANDO database for RED Notified Bodies.  As 
the accreditation assessments will be taking place over the next year, it is 
unlikely the RED NANDO list will be published until late 2015 / early 2016

Nick Hooper BSc(Eng) CEng MIET
Chairman R&TTE CA

UL
Grove House Business Centre, Chineham Court, Lutyens,
Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG24 8AG, England



This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not 
the intended recipient: (1) you may not disclose, use, distribute, copy or rely 
upon this me

Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[Anthony Thomson]

All,

 

I'm completely confused by this situation and some clarity really would be appreciated. Where in the directive does it say you that can't currently claim compliance to the RED (well, as of 11 June 2015 - see below).

 

I've heard Amund's comments below from other sources too, but I cannot find any basis for this in the directive.

 

Articles 48 through 50 mentioned by Nick merely state:

1. That the authorities cannot "impede" goods based on the RED until 13 June 2016 (Article 48).

2. That EU countries RED enforcement laws shall be in place before, and applied from 13 June 2016 (Article 49).

3. The R&TTED is repealed on 13 June 2016.

 

None say you can't claim compliance to the RED.

 

Now... Article 51 states that the RED shall enter into force on the 20th day following its publication in the OJ. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the RED was published in the the OJ on 22 May 2014 and has therefore been in force from the 11 June 2015.

 

So if it's in force, providing you meet the provisions of the RED, which article(s) prevents claiming conformity? After all, it is (interpretation, which may well be wrong) in force?

 


I admit that I haven't scrutinised the whole document and all its references, so I presume that I have missed some key facts. The benefit of greater experience really would be appreciated.


 

Tony

 

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 at 8:08 AM
From: "Hooper, Nick" 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe




Hi

Articles 48 to 50 will also be implemented as part of the National Law, hence enforcing the dates below

Best regards

Nick

 

 



From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: 29 October 2014 07:52
To: Hooper, Nick; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: SV: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe



 

RED applies from when the first EU/EEA member state has implemented the directive into national law?

 

#Amund

 

 



Fra: Hooper, Nick [mailto:nick.hoo...@ul.com]
Sendt: 28. oktober 2014 12:04
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe



 

Hello everyone.

 

I have been in discussion with the EU Commission and ADCO chairman as there seems to be an amount of misunderstanding on when you can declare compliance to the RED.  I explained to Lucio that we have seen a few cases of DoC and NB opinions to the new RED, and therefore had a question on the validity of these documents.

Below is the response received from the ADCO R&TTE Chairman.

 

“Dear Nick

We have already had such problems and administrative non compliances J

The new Directive (RED) is currently not applicable (will be applicable to products first placed on market as of 13 June 2016).  Hence the manufacturers cannot use, right now (i.e. for products placed on market before 13 June 2016), the references of RED (new Directive).

Best regards

Lucio

 

Lucio Cocciantelli
ADCO R&TTE Chairman”

 

Please ensure you read Artcile 48 to 50 of the RED, and pass this information on asap.

 

Notified Bodies should not be issuing Opinions to the RED until they are listed, on the yet to be published, NANDO database for RED Notified Bodies.  As the accreditation assessments will be taking place over the next year, it is unlikely the RED NANDO list will be published until late 2015 / early 2016

 

Nick Hooper BSc(Eng) CEng MIET 

Chairman R&TTE CA



UL

Grove House Business Centre, Chineham Court, Lutyens,

Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG24 8AG, England

 

 


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-


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Re: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[Hooper, Nick]

Hi
Articles 48 to 50 will also be implemented as part of the National Law, hence 
enforcing the dates below
Best regards
Nick


From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: 29 October 2014 07:52
To: Hooper, Nick; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: SV: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you 
sell wireless devices into Europe

RED applies from when the first EU/EEA member state has implemented the 
directive into national law?

#Amund


Fra: Hooper, Nick [mailto:nick.hoo...@ul.com]
Sendt: 28. oktober 2014 12:04
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell 
wireless devices into Europe

Hello everyone.

I have been in discussion with the EU Commission and ADCO chairman as there 
seems to be an amount of misunderstanding on when you can declare compliance to 
the RED.  I explained to Lucio that we have seen a few cases of DoC and NB 
opinions to the new RED, and therefore had a question on the validity of these 
documents.
Below is the response received from the ADCO R&TTE Chairman.

"Dear Nick
We have already had such problems and administrative non compliances :)
The new Directive (RED) is currently not applicable (will be applicable to 
products first placed on market as of 13 June 2016).  Hence the manufacturers 
cannot use, right now (i.e. for products placed on market before 13 June 2016), 
the references of RED (new Directive).
Best regards
Lucio

Lucio Cocciantelli
ADCO R&TTE Chairman"

Please ensure you read Artcile 48 to 50 of the RED, and pass this information 
on asap.

Notified Bodies should not be issuing Opinions to the RED until they are 
listed, on the yet to be published, NANDO database for RED Notified Bodies.  As 
the accreditation assessments will be taking place over the next year, it is 
unlikely the RED NANDO list will be published until late 2015 / early 2016

Nick Hooper BSc(Eng) CEng MIET
Chairman R&TTE CA

UL
Grove House Business Centre, Chineham Court, Lutyens,
Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG24 8AG, England



This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not 
the intended recipient: (1) you may not disclose, use, distribute, copy or rely 
upon this message or attachment(s); and (2) please notify the sender by reply 
e-mail, and then delete this message and its attachment(s). Underwriters 
Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates disclaim all liability for any errors, 
omissions, corruption or virus in this message or any attachments.
-


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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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[PSES] SV: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell wireless devices into Europe

[Amund Westin]

RED applies from when the first EU/EEA member state has implemented the
directive into national law?

 

#Amund

 

 

Fra: Hooper, Nick [mailto:nick.hoo...@ul.com] 
Sendt: 28. oktober 2014 12:04
Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Emne: [PSES] New Radio Equipment Directive (RED) - please read if you sell
wireless devices into Europe

 

Hello everyone.

 

I have been in discussion with the EU Commission and ADCO chairman as there
seems to be an amount of misunderstanding on when you can declare compliance
to the RED.  I explained to Lucio that we have seen a few cases of DoC and
NB opinions to the new RED, and therefore had a question on the validity of
these documents.

Below is the response received from the ADCO R&TTE Chairman.

 

"Dear Nick

We have already had such problems and administrative non compliances :)

The new Directive (RED) is currently not applicable (will be applicable to
products first placed on market as of 13 June 2016).  Hence the
manufacturers cannot use, right now (i.e. for products placed on market
before 13 June 2016), the references of RED (new Directive).

Best regards

Lucio

 

Lucio Cocciantelli
ADCO R&TTE Chairman"

 

Please ensure you read Artcile 48 to 50 of the RED, and pass this
information on asap.

 

Notified Bodies should not be issuing Opinions to the RED until they are
listed, on the yet to be published, NANDO database for RED Notified Bodies.
As the accreditation assessments will be taking place over the next year, it
is unlikely the RED NANDO list will be published until late 2015 / early
2016

 

Nick Hooper BSc(Eng) CEng MIET 

Chairman R&TTE CA



UL

Grove House Business Centre, Chineham Court, Lutyens,

Basingstoke, Hampshire, RG24 8AG, England

 

 


This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are
not the intended recipient: (1) you may not disclose, use, distribute, copy
or rely upon this message or attachment(s); and (2) please notify the sender
by reply e-mail, and then delete this message and its attachment(s).
Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates disclaim all liability for
any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in this message or any
attachments.

-


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