[PSES] Graphic Symbols for Electrical and Electronics Diagrams
Hi Folks, EN 60204-1 section 17.6 says " Any graphical symbol not shown in IEC 60617-DB:2001 shall be separately shown and described on the diagrams or supporting documents." NFPA 79 is harmonizing to EN 60204 and 17.7.1 has similar language but refers to IEEE 315/315A. I don't have either symbol standard yet and IEC 60717 is only available by subscription to online dB. The IEEE standards have been around for quite a while. I'm wondering how similar the symbols are between IEC 60617 and IEEE 315, anybody know? I can buy a copy of IEEE 315 for a reasonable price and I'm wondering if there is any additional need for the IEC 60617. One would hope that a common set of symbols would be acceptable in the US and Europe. Also, does anyone know what the restrictions are on the IEEE standard PDF files? i.e. on one end of the spectrum with only a watermark and the other end node locked to a single PC, can't print or can only print 1 copy ever, can't move to another PC when the original goes south without divine intervention, making the PDF pretty much useless etc? Thanks -Dave David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE Product Development Manager Bell and Howell - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] CISPR 32 adoption
In message .com>, dated Fri, 9 Jan 2015, Brian Oconnell writes: As an EMC amateur, have believed that '80/80' rule is about production variations, so that an emissions failure on a single unit cannot be necessarily considered an issue (until further batch investigation). Correct; that's how it has been for the last several decades. So are you saying that they want to also codify the site's measurement and other uncertainties into the mix to enforce a margin that is more stringent than the standard's limits such that a single field failure would represent a regulatory violation/legal problem ? No; the legal eagles say that the Directive requires that EVERY marketed unit meet the Essential Requirements (ERs); they can't say 'meet the standard' because using standards isn't compulsory. So the subject becomes multi-faceted: - can a product meet the ERs without meeting the standard? - were the limits in the standards set, taking into account that the 80/80 rule 'lets through' some few non-compliant units (the proportion can be calculated)? - should the way the 80/80 rule is applied be changed so that manufacturers can't evade the issue by repeatedly challenging the authority's tests? - should the 80/80 rule just be moved into the Directive, or into the protocol manuals the market surveillance authorities use? If 100% conformity to the standard were required, every unit would have to go through the whole standard test procedure, at immense cost, of course. There is a very good PPT about this, a submission to a standards committee. I will ask the author if it can be redacted and released. I probably won't get an answer before Monday, of course. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] CISPR 32 adoption
As an EMC amateur, have believed that '80/80' rule is about production variations, so that an emissions failure on a single unit cannot be necessarily considered an issue (until further batch investigation). So are you saying that they want to also codify the site's measurement and other uncertainties into the mix to enforce a margin that is more stringent than the standard's limits such that a single field failure would represent a regulatory violation/legal problem ? Brian -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 12:21 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] CISPR 32 adoption In message , dated Fri, 9 Jan 2015, Brian Oconnell writes: >2d ed of CISPR32 just published as FDIS, with a proposed publication >date of March 2015. It still might not pass the vote. CENELEC is having palpitations about the EC ruling that the 80/80 rule is regulatory. Now try to explain to a lawyer that the Laws of Physics require it to be taken into account somewhere, and if it is regulatory it should be in the Directive. > >As the FCC (47CFR) references ANSI C63.4, and EU obsoletion of >CISPR22/EN55022 seems to be years away (new EMCD not effective until >April 2016), The new EMCD has nothing to do with when EN 55032 comes into mandatory effect. > so will probably advise customers to not worry for at least three >years. The risk is that Canada ICES003 will not continue with C63.4, >and/or the Pacific rim states will go to CISPR 32 more sooner than >later. > >Opinions ? Assumptions reasonable? Any country that applies CISPR 32 (not the EN) to imports stands to have it applied to its exports. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] CISPR 32 adoption
In message .com>, dated Fri, 9 Jan 2015, Brian Oconnell writes: 2d ed of CISPR32 just published as FDIS, with a proposed publication date of March 2015. It still might not pass the vote. CENELEC is having palpitations about the EC ruling that the 80/80 rule is regulatory. Now try to explain to a lawyer that the Laws of Physics require it to be taken into account somewhere, and if it is regulatory it should be in the Directive. As the FCC (47CFR) references ANSI C63.4, and EU obsoletion of CISPR22/EN55022 seems to be years away (new EMCD not effective until April 2016), The new EMCD has nothing to do with when EN 55032 comes into mandatory effect. so will probably advise customers to not worry for at least three years. The risk is that Canada ICES003 will not continue with C63.4, and/or the Pacific rim states will go to CISPR 32 more sooner than later. Opinions ? Assumptions reasonable? Any country that applies CISPR 32 (not the EN) to imports stands to have it applied to its exports. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] CISPR 32 adoption
2d ed of CISPR32 just published as FDIS, with a proposed publication date of March 2015. As the FCC (47CFR) references ANSI C63.4, and EU obsoletion of CISPR22/EN55022 seems to be years away (new EMCD not effective until April 2016), so will probably advise customers to not worry for at least three years. The risk is that Canada ICES003 will not continue with C63.4, and/or the Pacific rim states will go to CISPR 32 more sooner than later. Opinions ? Assumptions reasonable? Thanks, Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] SV: [PSES] New EU marine directive
In message <007001d02c08$804ffa70$80efef50$@dk>, dated Fri, 9 Jan 2015, Kim Boll Jensen writes: Do you have a different google than I? I only get different sources of the directive no supporting documents. You are right; I was misled by the different descriptions. I suggest you compare the old and new Directives in a text comparator, such as UltraEdit. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] SV: [PSES] New EU marine directive
Hi John Do you have a different google than I? I only get different sources of the directive no supporting documents. Could you please send me a list with URL of the supporting documents you have found? Best regards, Kim Boll -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sendt: 9. januar 2015 10:49 Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Emne: Re: [PSES] New EU marine directive In message <005001d02bef$3f10fb40$bd32f1c0$@dk>, dated Fri, 9 Jan 2015, Kim Boll Jensen writes: >The old directive 96/98/EU with amendments will be changed into >2014/90/EU by not later than 18/9 2016. > >As I see it right now the changes are many. > >Where can I find a description of the changes or a guide or an article >about the new directive? Just put 2014/90/eu into a Google search. You can get the Directive and supporting documents without difficulty. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] New EU marine directive
In message <005001d02bef$3f10fb40$bd32f1c0$@dk>, dated Fri, 9 Jan 2015, Kim Boll Jensen writes: The old directive 96/98/EU with amendments will be changed into 2014/90/EU by not later than 18/9 2016. As I see it right now the changes are many. Where can I find a description of the changes or a guide or an article about the new directive? Just put 2014/90/eu into a Google search. You can get the Directive and supporting documents without difficulty. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] New EU marine directive
HI The old directive 96/98/EU with amendments will be changed into 2014/90/EU by not later than 18/9 2016. As I see it right now the changes are many. Where can I find a description of the changes or a guide or an article about the new directive? Any information is accepted ;-) Best regards, Mr. Kim Boll jensen - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
