Re: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

[Doug Smith]

Hi Doug and the group,

The picture with three arcs was from one frame of a 60 frame/sec short 
video I took while another person held the generator. So it was not a 
time exposure. I think there was only one active spark and the other 
paths were in the process of extinguishing as they did not have 
much current. I have another frame with 1/2 of the path showing the 
spark which was climbing u[p from the target to the HV tip, sort of 
like pictures you see of lightning. 

Once a spark is active, I don't think any new ones can form because the 
voltage across the gap is pulled too low during the active spark. Maybe 
someone on the list can shed some light on this. 

Risetimes of the current waveform had components from subnanosecond to 
tens of nanoseconds. Voltage was generated at about 500 kHz with about 
50kV peak voltage. The power supply was not filtered so there is a 120 
Hz modulation as well. The 120 Hz modulation gave the sparks a nice 
buzz as in science fiction movies. 

I started conducting high voltage experiements at 100 kV and higher 
(and NOT static electricity) when I was about 14 years old. My 
experiments brought the FCC to my house to investigate why no one in 
the neighborhood could watch TV. Between ages 11 and 14, I recreated 
for myself experiments of Marconi and Tesla to make sure those guy were 
actually right. If my Mom had realized how dangerous some of my 
experiments were, she would have fainted. Had a lot of fun vaporizing 2 
Watt, 1000 Ohm carbon comp resistors to dust. Been doing this kind of 
stuff for amusement ever since. 


Doug
University of Oxford
Department for Continuing Education
Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
--
Doug Smith
P.O. Box 60941
Boulder City, NV 89006-0941
TEL/FAX: 702-570-6108/570-6013
Mobile: 408-858-4528
Email: d...@dsmith.org
Web: http://www.dsmith.org
--
 

On Thu, 26 May 2016 11:57:53 -0600, Doug Powell  wrote:
The first picture of Doug is not so surprising... 


The next one with the blue corona cloud and ‎at least three 
discharges is interesting. Was the HV increasing on a ramp of some 
kind? It is apparent this was a long exposure photo and the corona 
cloud was visible long enough to be captured in the photo. 

In any case, it is a nice photo as this demonstrates the arcing moves 
around to slightly different positions as ionization process consumes 
‎immediately available gases. Also several locations on the screw 
head were receiving arcs. 


Thanks! Doug


Douglas E Powell‎
doug...@gmail.com (business)
‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

 
‎



Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network. 
  Original Message  

From: Brian O'Connell
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 10:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Brian O'Connell
Subject: Re: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

Interesting. Two questions:
1. Is the discharge actually multi-path(parallel), or is the image 
exposed for period of time where multiple, sequential streamers were 
recorded?
2. Would there not also be significant current flowing that is less 
than the 1MHz rating of the probe?


Brian

-Original Message-
From: Doug Smith [mailto:d...@emcesd.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 
2016 10:01 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

Hi All,

I have been doing some high voltage measurements of currents lately 
to support development of a new troubleshooting and failure mode 
analysis method which will be complete shortly. That information 
will be in my seminars this summer and eventually next year in a 
published paper. But at this point I have posted on my website a 
target for measuring currents due to discharges of 50 kV+ that 
insulates the current probe and with that constraint, minimizes the 
inductance of the measuremed current path. The new method relates to 
finding possible low probability failure modes that may occur in the 
field that are likely missed in normal SI and EMC testing but may 
still be important especially to those in the medical, aerospace, and 
automotive fields. The article is at: 
http://emcesd.com/tt2016/tt052416.htm and contains a surprising 
picture. Let me know if you notice the surprising feature in one of 
the pictures. 

Be sure to look over the main page at http://emcesd.com as I have 
been adding to it lately, including this latest article which is at 
the bottom of the index page.  

Doug

University of Oxford
Department for Continuing Education
Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments 

Re: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

[Brian O'Connell]

So my incorrect assumption was that this was not a single (capacitive?) 
discharge event, but a continuous arc?

What frequency range carries the current? All above 1MHz?

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 10:58 AM
To: Brian O'Connell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

The first picture of Doug is not so surprising... 

The next one with the blue corona cloud and ‎at least three discharges is 
interesting. Was the HV increasing on a ramp of some kind? It is apparent this 
was a long exposure photo and the corona cloud was visible long enough to be 
captured in the photo.

In any case, it is a nice photo as this demonstrates the arcing moves around to 
slightly different positions as ionization process consumes ‎immediately 
available gases. Also several locations on the screw head were receiving arcs.

Thanks! Doug


Douglas E Powell‎
doug...@gmail.com (business)
‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

 
‎



Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
  Original Message  
From: Brian O'Connell
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 10:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Brian O'Connell
Subject: Re: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

Interesting. Two questions:
1. Is the discharge actually multi-path(parallel), or is the image exposed for 
period of time where multiple, sequential streamers were recorded?
2. Would there not also be significant current flowing that is less than the 
1MHz rating of the probe?

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Doug Smith [mailto:d...@emcesd.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 10:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

Hi All,

I have been doing some high voltage measurements of currents lately to support 
development of a new troubleshooting and failure mode analysis method which 
will be complete shortly. That information will be in my seminars this summer 
and eventually next year in a published paper. But at this point I have posted 
on my website a target for measuring currents due to discharges of 50 kV+ that 
insulates the current probe and with that constraint, minimizes the inductance 
of the measuremed current path. 

The new method relates to finding possible low probability failure modes that 
may occur in the field that are likely missed in normal SI and EMC testing but 
may still be important especially to those in the medical, aerospace, and 
automotive fields. 

The article is at: http://emcesd.com/tt2016/tt052416.htm and contains a 
surprising picture. Let me know if you notice the surprising feature in one of 
the pictures.

Be sure to look over the main page at http://emcesd.com as I have been adding 
to it lately, including this latest article which is at the bottom of the index 
page. 
 
Doug

University of Oxford
Department for Continuing Education
Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

[Doug Powell]

The first picture of Doug is not so surprising... 

The next one with the blue corona cloud and ‎at least three discharges is 
interesting. Was the HV increasing on a ramp of some kind? It is apparent this 
was a long exposure photo and the corona cloud was visible long enough to be 
captured in the photo.

In any case, it is a nice photo as this demonstrates the arcing moves around to 
slightly different positions as ionization process consumes ‎immediately 
available gases. Also several locations on the screw head were receiving arcs.

Thanks! Doug


Douglas E Powell‎
doug...@gmail.com (business)
‎https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

 
‎



Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
  Original Message  
From: Brian O'Connell
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 10:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Reply To: Brian O'Connell
Subject: Re: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

Interesting. Two questions:
1. Is the discharge actually multi-path(parallel), or is the image exposed for 
period of time where multiple, sequential streamers were recorded?
2. Would there not also be significant current flowing that is less than the 
1MHz rating of the probe?

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Doug Smith [mailto:d...@emcesd.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 10:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

Hi All,

I have been doing some high voltage measurements of currents lately to support 
development of a new troubleshooting and failure mode analysis method which 
will be complete shortly. That information will be in my seminars this summer 
and eventually next year in a published paper. But at this point I have posted 
on my website a target for measuring currents due to discharges of 50 kV+ that 
insulates the current probe and with that constraint, minimizes the inductance 
of the measuremed current path. 

The new method relates to finding possible low probability failure modes that 
may occur in the field that are likely missed in normal SI and EMC testing but 
may still be important especially to those in the medical, aerospace, and 
automotive fields. 

The article is at: http://emcesd.com/tt2016/tt052416.htm and contains a 
surprising picture. Let me know if you notice the surprising feature in one of 
the pictures.

Be sure to look over the main page at http://emcesd.com as I have been adding 
to it lately, including this latest article which is at the bottom of the index 
page. 
 
Doug

University of Oxford
Department for Continuing Education
Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher: 
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE

[Steven Brody]

I agree and what Charlie and Rodney both said is also right on.  That is the
due diligence part of the process - you asked, or at least I thought you
asked,  what the legal issues were and how to resolve them so Company B can
place their product on the EU Market.

 

Steve Brody

sgbr...@comcast.net

 

From: John Allen [mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 11:03 AM
To: Steven Brody; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE

 

That works perfectly, thanks!!  I still would want so see company A's
Technical File.

 

 

 

John Allen | President | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

Your Outsourced Compliance DepartmentR

  http://www.productsafetyinc.com

630-238-0188


  

Product Safety Consulting

Product Safety Consulting provides product developers and manufacturers with
expert advice and testing services, so they can secure product safety and

  Read more...

 

  _  

From: Steven Brody 
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 3:06 PM
To: John Allen; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE 

 

.   Company A issues a DoC in their name as the manufacturer and uses
the company B name and model number they mark the product with. 

.   Company B creates their own TCF using the DoC from company A along
with any additional manuals or instructional information they provide when
they sell it. 

.   Company B issues a DoC as the manufacturer using the model and part
number that is on the product, and matches the information on the DoC from
company A.  They will also need to use their own Authorised Representative
unless A and B agree to use the Company A AR.

 

That allows for the EU folks to contact B if needed and B in turn contacts A
for whatever assistance is needed.  

 

Steve Brody

sgbr...@comcast.net

 

From: John Allen [mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 3:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE

 

Hi,

 

Some may be familiar with Multiple Listee's regarding NRTLs where one
company gets the Listing/Certification in their name and another company's
name.

 

How would this work for CE?  

 

Company A designs, tests, builds a Technical File and makes Declaration to
the appropriate Directives.  If company B wants company A to put their name
on it and company B places the product on the market, do they need their own
Technical File?  Do they put something in the file from company A that the
company B's model number is exactly the same as their model?

 

Thanks,

 

John

 

 

 

John Allen | President | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

Your Outsourced Compliance DepartmentR

  http://www.productsafetyinc.com

630-238-0188

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)  
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell  

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher 
David Heald  


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE

[John Allen]

That works perfectly, thanks!!  I still would want so see company A's Technical 
File.




John Allen | President | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

Your Outsourced Compliance Department®

http://www.productsafetyinc.com

630-238-0188

[http://www.productsafetyinc.com/assets/product-safety-consulting.png&retryCount=3]

Product Safety Consulting
Product Safety Consulting provides product developers and manufacturers with 
expert advice and testing services, so they can secure product safety and
Read more...




From: Steven Brody 
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 3:06 PM
To: John Allen; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE


·   Company A issues a DoC in their name as the manufacturer and uses the 
company B name and model number they mark the product with.

·   Company B creates their own TCF using the DoC from company A along with 
any additional manuals or instructional information they provide when they sell 
it.

·   Company B issues a DoC as the manufacturer using the model and part 
number that is on the product, and matches the information on the DoC from 
company A.  They will also need to use their own Authorised Representative 
unless A and B agree to use the Company A AR.



That allows for the EU folks to contact B if needed and B in turn contacts A 
for whatever assistance is needed.



Steve Brody

sgbr...@comcast.net



From: John Allen [mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 3:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE



Hi,



Some may be familiar with Multiple Listee's regarding NRTLs where one company 
gets the Listing/Certification in their name and another company's name.



How would this work for CE?



Company A designs, tests, builds a Technical File and makes Declaration to the 
appropriate Directives.  If company B wants company A to put their name on it 
and company B places the product on the market, do they need their own 
Technical File?  Do they put something in the file from company A that the 
company B's model number is exactly the same as their model?



Thanks,



John







John Allen | President | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.

Your Outsourced Compliance Department®

http://www.productsafetyinc.com

630-238-0188

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

[Brian O'Connell]

Interesting. Two questions:
1. Is the discharge actually multi-path(parallel), or is the image exposed for 
period of time where multiple, sequential streamers were recorded?
2. Would there not also be significant current flowing that is less than the 
1MHz rating of the probe?

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Doug Smith [mailto:d...@emcesd.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 10:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] High Voltage target for measuring currents of HV events

Hi All,

I have been doing some high voltage measurements of currents lately to support 
development of a new troubleshooting and failure mode analysis method which 
will be complete shortly. That information will be in my seminars this summer 
and eventually next year in a published paper. But at this point I have posted 
on my website a target for measuring currents due to discharges of 50 kV+ that 
insulates the current probe and with that constraint, minimizes the inductance 
of the measuremed current path. 

The new method relates to finding possible low probability failure modes that 
may occur in the field that are likely missed in normal SI and EMC testing but 
may still be important especially to those in the medical, aerospace, and 
automotive fields. 

The article is at: http://emcesd.com/tt2016/tt052416.htm and contains a 
surprising picture. Let me know if you notice the surprising feature in one of 
the pictures. 

Be sure to look over the main page at http://emcesd.com as I have been adding 
to it lately, including this latest article which is at the bottom of the index 
page. 
 
Doug

University of Oxford
Department for Continuing Education
Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Question regarding clock jitter specification

[Pawson, James]

(Re-sending)

Hi Ken,

To take HDMI as an example, it defines a transfer function for the clock 
recovery PLL with a cut off above 4MHz. My understanding is that this is the 
loop response of the receivers clock recovery PLL meaning that jitter 
frequencies below this cut off are tracked but higher ones are not. Other 
standards will presumably define their own PLL response.

Hope this helps
James

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: 25 May 2016 23:54
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question regarding clock jitter specification

The cited article was very interesting as to how to measure Jitter, but it did 
not answer the questions I posed as to how clock jitter is spec'd and how fast 
it changes (analogous to fm deviation and rate of deviation).

This is not CISPR, it is measurements in band to specific radios with specific 
channel bandwidths, and the issue is to properly specify a measurement BW, and 
what happens when the measurement BW is improperly specified (measurement BW < 
radio channel BW).

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

From: "Pawson, James" 
mailto:james.paw...@echostar.com>>
Reply-To: "Pawson, James" 
mailto:james.paw...@echostar.com>>
Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 09:42:55 +
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Conversation: Question regarding clock jitter specification
Subject: Re: [PSES] Question regarding clock jitter specification

Ken,

Jitter can be a very complicated subject; we once received a detailed and 
complex presentation from LeCroy (now Teledyne) on the different types of 
jitter and how you could separate them out from each other e.g. random jitter, 
deterministic jitter, etc. It had more pictures and detail than this document - 
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_jittermeasurement_in_serialdatasignals.pdf
 - but it gives you the flavour.

Generally jitter seems to be defined as a maximum deviation from an ideal clock 
rate (e.g. 0.25 x T_bit for HDMI). The ideal clock could be either a recovered 
clock in the case of a serial link (like HDMI or SATA) or a clock that is 
transmitted in parallel to the signal (like PCIe). Introduce spread spectrum 
clocking in there and measurement becomes even more interesting!

For the frequencies that you refer to, I believe CISPR defines a measurement 
bandwidth of 1MHz so I'm not sure why someone would me measuring with such a 
RBW unless it was specifically mentioned in a standard. You might hope that 
excessive jitter would make these higher harmonics a little lower in amplitude 
;)

James


From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: 25 May 2016 04:20
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Question regarding clock jitter specification

What is a typical clock jitter specification? Is it given as a percentage of 
clock period? If not, how?  Given some maximum jitter spec, how quickly does 
the clock period change? Can it go from no jitter to maximum deviation in one 
clock cycle? If so, is that typical? Or is it more typical to stay much closer 
to nominal than the jitter spec allows for many clock cycles, and then slowly 
deviate?

These questions are asked not from a signal integrity vantage point, but rather 
that of EMC. In particular, I am concerned about people using very narrow 
measurement BWs to measure radiated emissions in microwave bands where the 
measurement is that of a clock harmonic, and thus the spreading of the clock 
jitter residual frequency modulation at the fundamental by the harmonic order.

So for instance, if someone uses a 1 kHz BW at 10 GHz and expects to accurately 
measure the full value of a cw tone that is the harmonic of a lower frequency 
clock, the implication is that the jitter is less than 1e-7 of the clock period 
which will be much less than 1 ps even with a 10 MHz clock.  If the jitter 
exceeds this value and actual radio protected by the RE measurement has a 
larger BW than that used in the RE measurement, then if the harmonic is quickly 
wandering in and out of the measurement pass band, it will be averaged in a way 
not representative of what the actual radio would see.

Hence, the questions.

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) 

Re: [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE

[Rodney Davis]

If you have a review of the bluebook it is clear that Manufacturer B is now
the "MANUFACTURER" and must meet the obligations associated with being the
manufacturer. I agree with Charlie, to limit your liabilities... reports etc
and perhaps even a quick verification test may be in order., Contractually
you may also want to cover yourself ie indemnifying your self from
liability arising of non-compliance and ensuring Company A remain in
compliance as standards change or design costs are reduced etc.

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Charlie Blackham <
char...@sulisconsultants.com> wrote:

> John
>
>
>
> Company A would own the IP for the product and they may not wish to share
> design data with company B, but if I was Company B, I would want:
>
> · Copies of all test reports supporting DoC – Ideally these would
> all be from accredited labs that I could/did trust
>
> · If the device had a mains port I would probably want it to be
> Listed/certified by suitable NRTL or other organisation.
>
> · A signed DoC
>
> · Commercial agreement that:
>
> o   Company A will advise Company B of any changes to the product that
> affect compliance together with any updated test results and /or technical
> rationale
>
> o   Company A would provide copy of Technical File to any appropriate
> authority who requests proof of compliance from Company  B
>
>
>
> Now, not all that may be possible, so I would have to consider risk of
> non-compliance etc. and decide whether what had been provided/offered was
> acceptable.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* John Allen [mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com]
> *Sent:* 25 May 2016 20:02
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Multiple Listee for CE
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Some may be familiar with Multiple Listee's regarding NRTLs where one
> company gets the Listing/Certification in their name and another company's
> name.
>
>
>
> How would this work for CE?
>
>
>
> Company A designs, tests, builds a Technical File and makes Declaration to
> the appropriate Directives.  If company B wants company A to put their name
> on it and company B places the product on the market, do they need their
> own Technical File?  Do they put something in the file from company A that
> the company B's model number is exactly the same as their model?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John Allen | President | Product Safety Consulting, Inc.
>
> Your Outsourced Compliance Department®
>
> http://www.productsafetyinc.com
>
> 630-238-0188
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instruction

Re: [PSES] EN 55035 / CISPR 35

[Rodney Davis]

test

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Schaefer, David 
wrote:

> There’s a separate question on CISPR 35 I would like answered – are they
> going to use pulse modulation for the spot frequencies?  As Rob mentioned,
> the requirement could be up to 30 V/m. If you’re intended to use the normal
> AM modulation of IEC 61000-4-3, that’s up to 54 V/m during your
> calibration. Pulse modulation makes more sense, but it isn’t in the draft.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Dunkerley [mailto:robert.dunker...@s-a-m.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, May 20, 2016 7:23 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* Re: [PSES] EN 55035 / CISPR 35
>
>
>
> Hi John,
>
>
>
> So EN 55035 (CISPR 35) may not filter through to the OJ Harmonised list
> until end of 2019?
>
>
>
> Up until that point, it will be a combination of EN 55032 *and either* EN
> 55024, 55020 or 55103-2?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Rob.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com
> ]
> *Sent:* 19 May 2016 13:16
> *To:* Robert Dunkerley; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* RE: [PSES] EN 55035 / CISPR 35
>
>
>
> It is most unlikely that 55035 will be brought into mandatory effect
> without at least 3 years transition. It appears that the CISPR FDIS is
> forecast for October 2016, and CENELEC will for sure need time to process
> it into an EN.
>
>
>
> With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
>
> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert Dunkerley [mailto:robert.dunker...@s-a-m.com
> ]
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 19, 2016 12:45 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] EN 55035 / CISPR 35
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I’m trying to plan ahead for the new EMC Standards coming in next year, in
> particular EN 55032 and EN 55035.
>
>
>
> With EN 55035 still in draft form, are we likely to see that become
> compulsory the same time EN 55032 does? (ie 5th March 2017?)
>
>
>
> In addition, do we know what the Radiated Immunity test changes are likely
> to be on the final version of the draft? I’ve seen that there is a new
> requirement for spot frequencies at 1.8GHz, 2.6GHz, 3.5GHz and 5GHz @ 3V/m.
> However, I have also seen talk of a ‘Protection Distance’ which could
> increase this 3V/m up to 30V/m.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Rob.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely
> by Mimecast.
> For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com
> --
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>
>
> --
>
> This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely
> by Mimecast.
> For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com
> --
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Onli