[PSES] Automotive standards requiring BCI or current probes?
Not well versed in the automotive standards, I'm curious which are the most common that would require the use of BCI clamps or current probes? Are any of these manufacturer-specific? Which ones should I get? Thanks in advance. Kenneth Wyatt Wyatt Technical Services Woodland Park, CO k...@emc-seminars.com Sent from my iPhone. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety!
Vividly; it's not been extinct that long. Google finds very many leads including various versions of the picture. HMV Retail still exists, as does Virgin EMI Records. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2016 2:10 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety! Remember the RCA Victor record album picture of the dog listening to the Victrola - his master's voice? (EMI record label in UK). Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 > From: John Woodgate > Reply-To: John Woodgate > Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 22:47:23 +0100 > To: > Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety! > > Interchannel phase differences *measurably* alter the stereo image. > Phase difference between voltage and current has no effect unless a > non-minimum phase device is involved. > > 'Live versus recorded' demos (with good results) date way back to the > early 1950s, first in USA and soon after in Britain. > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England > > Sylvae in aeternum manent. > > > -Original Message- > From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 8:58 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety! > > Some of the articles I'd read in some magazine or other (copies > available if you know Mr. Peabody and his boy Sherman), stated some > equipment designers were paying extraordinarily close attention to > maintaining the phase relationships between channels and between > voltage and current, as signal passed through a system. Claims were > made that doing so improved the accuracy of the reproduced sound. > > I heard stories in the early 1980s of people standing around rooms, > dropping a set of keys onto a glass coffee table and recording it, > then everyone else closing their eyes while someone made them guess if > the next sound they heard sound was recorded or live. Folklore to > people like me, but gospel to some audiophiles. > > > Peter Tarver > >> -Original Message- >> From: Ken Javor >> [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] >> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 17:32 >> >> A very simple and inexpensive means of arranging staging is to >> introduce delays between left and right channels such that the sound >> appears to be coming from a particular direction. This is much easier >> to accomplish with headphones than loudspeakers, but it's the same >> principle. >> I've seen a >> convincing demonstration at the US Army Aeromedical Research Lab >> (USAARL), where something like five different radios can be going at >> once and a helicopter crew have to be able to intelligently respond >> in a crisis situation, and what people normally do in a situation >> like that where they can't pay attention to everyone is they zero in >> on one conversation and ignore the others, and to do that we use >> directionality. >> Originally there >> was none and the headphones could be blaring all channels at once, >> and the crew would simply turn off he radios they didn't want to >> hear, which wasn't good. By introducing specific delays for each >> radio, the various radios could be made to sound as if one >> conversation was from 12:00, another at >> 3:00 another at 6:00 and so on. That allowed the crew to mentally >> focus in on the conversation of interest and tune out the others >> temporarily. But that is all software and digital circuitry: no >> fancy audiophile equipment necessary. >> >> Ken Javor >> Phone: (256) 650-5261 >> >> >>> From: Peter Tarver >>> Reply-To: Peter Tarver >>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 21:37:04 + >>> To: >>> Conversation: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other >> than safety! >>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other >> than safety! >>> >>> I have heard of and known a few audiophiles that go to >> great lengths to have >>> sound reproduced as accurately as possible and spend >> enormous sums to >>> accomplish that. >>> >>> The term that was most silly in my view was holography; >> but I understood what >>> was meant. The aforementioned audiophiles claim to >> recreate the spatial >>> relationship between the physical locations musical >> instruments when recorded. >>> The needs for recording and reproduction are entirely >> impractical and don't >>> seem achievable for simple stereophonics, so it seems on >> the bovine >>> scatological side of the olfactory sense. >>> >>> BUT, I have stood in and moved about a room that was >> carefully put together. >>> In one part of the room one instrument (say clarinet) >> could be heard more >>> distinctly than in other areas, and
Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety!
Remember the RCA Victor record album picture of the dog listening to the Victrola - his master's voice? (EMI record label in UK). Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 > From: John Woodgate > Reply-To: John Woodgate > Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 22:47:23 +0100 > To: > Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety! > > Interchannel phase differences *measurably* alter the stereo image. Phase > difference between voltage and current has no effect unless a non-minimum > phase device is involved. > > 'Live versus recorded' demos (with good results) date way back to the early > 1950s, first in USA and soon after in Britain. > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England > > Sylvae in aeternum manent. > > > -Original Message- > From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] > Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 8:58 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety! > > Some of the articles I'd read in some magazine or other (copies available if > you know Mr. Peabody and his boy Sherman), stated some equipment designers > were paying extraordinarily close attention to maintaining the phase > relationships between channels and between voltage and current, as signal > passed through a system. Claims were made that doing so improved the > accuracy of the reproduced sound. > > I heard stories in the early 1980s of people standing around rooms, dropping > a set of keys onto a glass coffee table and recording it, then everyone else > closing their eyes while someone made them guess if the next sound they > heard sound was recorded or live. Folklore to people like me, but gospel to > some audiophiles. > > > Peter Tarver > >> -Original Message- >> From: Ken Javor >> [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] >> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 17:32 >> >> A very simple and inexpensive means of arranging staging is to >> introduce delays between left and right channels such that the sound >> appears to be coming from a particular direction. This is much easier >> to accomplish with headphones than loudspeakers, but it's the same >> principle. >> I've seen a >> convincing demonstration at the US Army Aeromedical Research Lab >> (USAARL), where something like five different radios can be going at >> once and a helicopter crew have to be able to intelligently respond in >> a crisis situation, and what people normally do in a situation like >> that where they can't pay attention to everyone is they zero in on one >> conversation and ignore the others, and to do that we use >> directionality. >> Originally there >> was none and the headphones could be blaring all channels at once, and >> the crew would simply turn off he radios they didn't want to hear, >> which wasn't good. By introducing specific delays for each radio, the >> various radios could be made to sound as if one conversation was from >> 12:00, another at >> 3:00 another at 6:00 and so on. That allowed the crew to mentally >> focus in on the conversation of interest and tune out the others >> temporarily. But that is all software and digital circuitry: no fancy >> audiophile equipment necessary. >> >> Ken Javor >> Phone: (256) 650-5261 >> >> >>> From: Peter Tarver >>> Reply-To: Peter Tarver >>> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 21:37:04 + >>> To: >>> Conversation: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other >> than safety! >>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other >> than safety! >>> >>> I have heard of and known a few audiophiles that go to >> great lengths to have >>> sound reproduced as accurately as possible and spend >> enormous sums to >>> accomplish that. >>> >>> The term that was most silly in my view was holography; >> but I understood what >>> was meant. The aforementioned audiophiles claim to >> recreate the spatial >>> relationship between the physical locations musical >> instruments when recorded. >>> The needs for recording and reproduction are entirely >> impractical and don't >>> seem achievable for simple stereophonics, so it seems on >> the bovine >>> scatological side of the olfactory sense. >>> >>> BUT, I have stood in and moved about a room that was >> carefully put together. >>> In one part of the room one instrument (say clarinet) >> could be heard more >>> distinctly than in other areas, and so on for other >> instruments, giving the >>> impression that one was moving from musician to >> musician on a sound stage. >>> >>> Pretty clever, but outlandishly expensive. >>> >>> >>> Peter Tarver >>> -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 19:55 Next, the terms are not entirely gibberish. They may be unfamiliar to those not in the hi-fi hobby, but I can make >> out all but one of these terms: Sound staging means stereo separation. Or
Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety!
I'm assuming they recorded it on Memorex:) -Original Message- From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 3:58 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety! Some of the articles I'd read in some magazine or other (copies available if you know Mr. Peabody and his boy Sherman), stated some equipment designers were paying extraordinarily close attention to maintaining the phase relationships between channels and between voltage and current, as signal passed through a system. Claims were made that doing so improved the accuracy of the reproduced sound. I heard stories in the early 1980s of people standing around rooms, dropping a set of keys onto a glass coffee table and recording it, then everyone else closing their eyes while someone made them guess if the next sound they heard sound was recorded or live. Folklore to people like me, but gospel to some audiophiles. Peter Tarver > -Original Message- > From: Ken Javor > [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 17:32 > > A very simple and inexpensive means of arranging staging is to > introduce delays between left and right channels such that the sound > appears to be coming from a particular direction. This is much easier > to accomplish with headphones than loudspeakers, but it's the same > principle. > I've seen a > convincing demonstration at the US Army Aeromedical Research Lab > (USAARL), where something like five different radios can be going at > once and a helicopter crew have to be able to intelligently respond in > a crisis situation, and what people normally do in a situation like > that where they can't pay attention to everyone is they zero in on one > conversation and ignore the others, and to do that we use > directionality. > Originally there > was none and the headphones could be blaring all channels at once, and > the crew would simply turn off he radios they didn't want to hear, > which wasn't good. By introducing specific delays for each radio, the > various radios could be made to sound as if one conversation was from > 12:00, another at > 3:00 another at 6:00 and so on. That allowed the crew to mentally > focus in on the conversation of interest and tune out the others > temporarily. But that is all software and digital circuitry: no fancy > audiophile equipment necessary. > > Ken Javor > Phone: (256) 650-5261 > > > > From: Peter Tarver > > Reply-To: Peter Tarver > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 21:37:04 + > > To: > > Conversation: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other > than safety! > > Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other > than safety! > > > > I have heard of and known a few audiophiles that go to > great lengths to have > > sound reproduced as accurately as possible and spend > enormous sums to > > accomplish that. > > > > The term that was most silly in my view was holography; > but I understood what > > was meant. The aforementioned audiophiles claim to > recreate the spatial > > relationship between the physical locations musical > instruments when recorded. > > The needs for recording and reproduction are entirely > impractical and don't > > seem achievable for simple stereophonics, so it seems on > the bovine > > scatological side of the olfactory sense. > > > > BUT, I have stood in and moved about a room that was > carefully put together. > > In one part of the room one instrument (say clarinet) > could be heard more > > distinctly than in other areas, and so on for other > instruments, giving the > > impression that one was moving from musician to > musician on a sound stage. > > > > Pretty clever, but outlandishly expensive. > > > > > > Peter Tarver > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Ken Javor > >> [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] > >> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 19:55 > >> > >> Next, the terms are not entirely gibberish. They may be unfamiliar > >> to those not in the hi-fi hobby, but I can make > out > >> all but one of these terms: > >> > >> Sound staging means stereo separation. Or whatever passes fro that > >> in the age of five and six different > channels (I > >> haven't kept up with this stuff since it departed from two > >> channels). I don't know how a fuse aids or degrades channel > >> separation, but at least we can understand what > is > >> being claimed. > >> > > > > The information contained in this message may be > privileged and confidential. > > It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to > whom it is > > addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this > message is not the > > intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution > of this message, > > in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > message in > > error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or > destroy any copy of > > this message! > > > > - > > -
Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety!
> 'Live versus recorded' demos (with good results) date way > back to the early > 1950s, first in USA and soon after in Britain. Yes. In the '50's, I attended such a demo by Ampex and the San Francisco Symphony at the SF War Memorial Opera House. I was on the main floor about 2/3 back from the stage. I couldn't tell the difference. Midway through the opening overture, the orchestra put down their instruments and walked offstage, but the music kept playing. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety!
Interchannel phase differences *measurably* alter the stereo image. Phase difference between voltage and current has no effect unless a non-minimum phase device is involved. 'Live versus recorded' demos (with good results) date way back to the early 1950s, first in USA and soon after in Britain. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. -Original Message- From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 8:58 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety! Some of the articles I'd read in some magazine or other (copies available if you know Mr. Peabody and his boy Sherman), stated some equipment designers were paying extraordinarily close attention to maintaining the phase relationships between channels and between voltage and current, as signal passed through a system. Claims were made that doing so improved the accuracy of the reproduced sound. I heard stories in the early 1980s of people standing around rooms, dropping a set of keys onto a glass coffee table and recording it, then everyone else closing their eyes while someone made them guess if the next sound they heard sound was recorded or live. Folklore to people like me, but gospel to some audiophiles. Peter Tarver > -Original Message- > From: Ken Javor > [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 17:32 > > A very simple and inexpensive means of arranging staging is to > introduce delays between left and right channels such that the sound > appears to be coming from a particular direction. This is much easier > to accomplish with headphones than loudspeakers, but it's the same > principle. > I've seen a > convincing demonstration at the US Army Aeromedical Research Lab > (USAARL), where something like five different radios can be going at > once and a helicopter crew have to be able to intelligently respond in > a crisis situation, and what people normally do in a situation like > that where they can't pay attention to everyone is they zero in on one > conversation and ignore the others, and to do that we use > directionality. > Originally there > was none and the headphones could be blaring all channels at once, and > the crew would simply turn off he radios they didn't want to hear, > which wasn't good. By introducing specific delays for each radio, the > various radios could be made to sound as if one conversation was from > 12:00, another at > 3:00 another at 6:00 and so on. That allowed the crew to mentally > focus in on the conversation of interest and tune out the others > temporarily. But that is all software and digital circuitry: no fancy > audiophile equipment necessary. > > Ken Javor > Phone: (256) 650-5261 > > > > From: Peter Tarver > > Reply-To: Peter Tarver > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 21:37:04 + > > To: > > Conversation: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other > than safety! > > Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other > than safety! > > > > I have heard of and known a few audiophiles that go to > great lengths to have > > sound reproduced as accurately as possible and spend > enormous sums to > > accomplish that. > > > > The term that was most silly in my view was holography; > but I understood what > > was meant. The aforementioned audiophiles claim to > recreate the spatial > > relationship between the physical locations musical > instruments when recorded. > > The needs for recording and reproduction are entirely > impractical and don't > > seem achievable for simple stereophonics, so it seems on > the bovine > > scatological side of the olfactory sense. > > > > BUT, I have stood in and moved about a room that was > carefully put together. > > In one part of the room one instrument (say clarinet) > could be heard more > > distinctly than in other areas, and so on for other > instruments, giving the > > impression that one was moving from musician to > musician on a sound stage. > > > > Pretty clever, but outlandishly expensive. > > > > > > Peter Tarver > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Ken Javor > >> [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] > >> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 19:55 > >> > >> Next, the terms are not entirely gibberish. They may be unfamiliar > >> to those not in the hi-fi hobby, but I can make > out > >> all but one of these terms: > >> > >> Sound staging means stereo separation. Or whatever passes fro that > >> in the age of five and six different > channels (I > >> haven't kept up with this stuff since it departed from two > >> channels). I don't know how a fuse aids or degrades channel > >> separation, but at least we can understand what > is > >> being claimed. > >> > > > > The information contained in this message may be > privileged and confidential. > > It is intended to be read only by the individual or entit
Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other than safety!
Some of the articles I'd read in some magazine or other (copies available if you know Mr. Peabody and his boy Sherman), stated some equipment designers were paying extraordinarily close attention to maintaining the phase relationships between channels and between voltage and current, as signal passed through a system. Claims were made that doing so improved the accuracy of the reproduced sound. I heard stories in the early 1980s of people standing around rooms, dropping a set of keys onto a glass coffee table and recording it, then everyone else closing their eyes while someone made them guess if the next sound they heard sound was recorded or live. Folklore to people like me, but gospel to some audiophiles. Peter Tarver > -Original Message- > From: Ken Javor > [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 17:32 > > A very simple and inexpensive means of arranging staging is > to introduce > delays between left and right channels such that the sound > appears to be > coming from a particular direction. This is much easier to > accomplish with > headphones than loudspeakers, but it's the same principle. > I've seen a > convincing demonstration at the US Army Aeromedical > Research Lab (USAARL), > where something like five different radios can be going at > once and a > helicopter crew have to be able to intelligently respond in a > crisis > situation, and what people normally do in a situation like > that where they > can't pay attention to everyone is they zero in on one > conversation and > ignore the others, and to do that we use directionality. > Originally there > was none and the headphones could be blaring all channels > at once, and the > crew would simply turn off he radios they didn't want to > hear, which wasn't > good. By introducing specific delays for each radio, the > various radios > could be made to sound as if one conversation was from > 12:00, another at > 3:00 another at 6:00 and so on. That allowed the crew to > mentally focus in > on the conversation of interest and tune out the others > temporarily. But > that is all software and digital circuitry: no fancy audiophile > equipment > necessary. > > Ken Javor > Phone: (256) 650-5261 > > > > From: Peter Tarver > > Reply-To: Peter Tarver > > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 21:37:04 + > > To: > > Conversation: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other > than safety! > > Subject: Re: [PSES] Fuses can affect performance other > than safety! > > > > I have heard of and known a few audiophiles that go to > great lengths to have > > sound reproduced as accurately as possible and spend > enormous sums to > > accomplish that. > > > > The term that was most silly in my view was holography; > but I understood what > > was meant. The aforementioned audiophiles claim to > recreate the spatial > > relationship between the physical locations musical > instruments when recorded. > > The needs for recording and reproduction are entirely > impractical and don't > > seem achievable for simple stereophonics, so it seems on > the bovine > > scatological side of the olfactory sense. > > > > BUT, I have stood in and moved about a room that was > carefully put together. > > In one part of the room one instrument (say clarinet) > could be heard more > > distinctly than in other areas, and so on for other > instruments, giving the > > impression that one was moving from musician to > musician on a sound stage. > > > > Pretty clever, but outlandishly expensive. > > > > > > Peter Tarver > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Ken Javor > >> [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] > >> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 19:55 > >> > >> Next, the terms are not entirely gibberish. They may be > >> unfamiliar to those not in the hi-fi hobby, but I can make > out > >> all but one of these terms: > >> > >> Sound staging means stereo separation. Or whatever > >> passes fro that in the age of five and six different > channels (I > >> haven't kept up with this stuff since it departed from two > >> channels). I don't know how a fuse aids or degrades > >> channel separation, but at least we can understand what > is > >> being claimed. > >> > > > > The information contained in this message may be > privileged and confidential. > > It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to > whom it is > > addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this > message is not the > > intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution > of this message, > > in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > message in > > error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or > destroy any copy of > > this message! > > > > - > > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering > Society emc-pstc > > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e- > mail to > > > > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
Re: [PSES] EU Enforcement of CE Marking Directives
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumers_safety/safety_products/rapex/index_en.htm > On 25 Aug 2016, at 21:45, Jim Hulbert wrote: > > Hi, > > I am interested in understanding how stringent the enforcement of CE marking > directives is within the EU. Is there someplace where we can find > enforcement actions that have been taken against companies for placing > products on the market that don’t fully meet the applicable Directives? I > am most interested in the EMC, LVD, MD, and R&TTE Directives. > > Thank you. > > Jim Hulbert > > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
