Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Manny Barron]

Hi Ken,

Interesting question.

I've never seen a product intentionally scheduled at the end of
environmental qualification for the specific purpose of assessing EMI
performance after it's been physically abused after all the other qual
testing.  But I have heard some program managers say EMI testing should go
at the end because the product will get beat up in the field and it should
still perform under those circumstances.  But they never followed through to
put EMI at the end because many considered EMI the hardest to pass and
everyone wants to pass qualification - so it ends up near or at the front of
the queue for EMI.

When I was an EMC/EMI design & test engineer for 2 major manufacturers,
typically the product hardware scheduled for qualification tests had to be
shared among EMC/EMI, Safety, environmental testing, and any other
miscellaneous tests.  This was primarily due to cost, the products I worked
with at the commercial manufacturer cost thousands of dollars, and at the
military defense contractor the products cost hundreds of thousands of
dollars.  So I do understand the sharing concept.

Nevertheless, whenever the opportunity arose for me to have a voice in the
matter I always pushed for receiving the product first for EMI testing.
There's been a few times when I received product hardware for EMI testing
that was so banged up I had to refuse testing it because it was certain to
fail some of the EMI tests.  Most program managers accommodated my request
to be at the front of the test queue because they wanted the product to pass
the myriad of EMI tests it had to undergo (which many viewed as very
mysterious testing).  However sometimes this strategy didn't work when there
was an EMI emissions or immunity failure, which then caused a delay in the
overall test schedule for the next suite of qualification tests.  Providing
more samples for testing would help alleviate this but then there's the cost
issue to deal with.

Manny Barron
EMC/EMI Engineer










-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 7:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

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David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

Hi Ed,

Can you share with us some typical EMP caused defects, and their
cause/fix  ? Most of us do not share your experience in this

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen
Approvals manager



+ ce marking of electrical/electronic equipment
+ Independent Consultancy Services
+ Compliance Testing and Design for CE marking
 according to EC-directives:
    - Electro Magnetic Compatibility 2004/108/EC
    - Electrical Safety 2006/95/EC
    - Medical Devices 93/42/EC
    - Radio & Telecommunication Terminal Equipment 99/5/EC
+ Improvement of Product Quality and Reliability testing
+ Education

Web:    www.cetest.nl (English) 
Phone :  +31 10 415 24 26
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From: Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net] 
Sent: Wednesday 5 October 2016 00:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

Ken:

Mostly, it was the fear that the system would fail EMP. We had no way of 
getting an exposure test any closer than 0.5% of the required level, so the 
risk of failure during the actual test was difficult to quantify, and this 
really frightens the program people. I would cajole best practices as strongly 
as I could, try to over-engineer what I could get away with, and closely look 
at cable routings and build quality, but I still was never sure what my odds 
were. A secondary reason was that scheduling an EMP test date was often longer 
than the rest of the environmental test program; the last couple of times, I 
had the hardware sitting around for over a month until the EMP testing was due. 
(And fortunately, both passed on the first try!)

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

Ed,

Was EMP last because it might break things, or because the EMP people wanted to 
see how the equipment fared after an accelerated life regime?

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

From: Ed Price 
Reply-To: Ed Price 
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 12:13:31 -0700
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

In a military or space vehicle market, it was common for several systems to be 
moving in parallel through the environmental qualification test program. One 
system would often see rugged physical testing, where failures could be very 
serious setbacks (salt fog immersion, blowing rain, sand & dust, helium leak 
testing, solar exposure, transportation shock, drop testing, explosive shock 
exposure), while another system would be going through temperature cycling, 
vibration, and other more benign tests. This latter system would usually end up 
with me doing the acoustic noise and electrical tests (frequency & voltage 
extremes, power efficiency, start-up transients, and applicable powerline/EMC 
suite).
I don't know how the reliability engineers factored in how one test affected 
another, but I do know that, although the sequence of tests before my lab 
wasn't always in the same order, the power & EMC tests were usually the last of 
the environmental suite. Further, if it was applicable, the NEMP exposure was 
the very last test.

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 7:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?
 
Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the end 
of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI performance 
after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?
 
Thank you,
 
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
 
-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
 >
 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 

Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

[Kevin.Richardson]

Thanks Scott.

Maybe if you could advise exactly which Act/regulation and standard we are 
talking about I could advise if your customer has a correct understanding of 
the requirements?


Best regards,
Kevin Richardson

Stanimore Pty Limited
Compliance Advice & Solutions for Technology
(Legislation/Regulations/Standards/Australian Agent Services)
Ph:   02-4329-4070   (Int'l: +61-2-4329-4070)
Fax:  02-4328-5639   (Int'l: +61-2-4328-5639)
Mobile:  04-1224-1620   (Int'l: +61-4-1224-1620)
Email:kevin.richard...@stanimore.com  or  kevin.richard...@ieee.org 
URL:  www.stanimore.com


Confidentiality 
This material (this email including all attachments) may contain confidential 
and/or privileged information intended to be read or used by the addressees 
only.  If you are not one of the intended recipients or you have received this 
material in error, any copying, disclosure, distribution, use of or reliance 
upon this material is prohibited.  Please immediately notify Stanimore Pty 
Limited and delete/destroy all copies (electronic and hardcopy) of this email 
and all attachments.  While the sender tries to ensure the accuracy of the 
information contained in this material, Stanimore take no responsibility for 
any actions taken as a result of receiving this material or for any consequence 
of its use.


-Original Message-
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2016 10:03 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

Kevin,

AMT2 is short for amendment 2.

Regards,

Scott




On 5/10/2016, 6:40 AM, "Kevin.Richardson"  wrote:

Scott,

Sorry, I am not familiar with what AMT2 is.


Best regards,
Kevin Richardson

Stanimore Pty Limited
Compliance Advice & Solutions for Technology
(Legislation/Regulations/Standards/Australian Agent Services)
Ph:   02-4329-4070   (Int'l: +61-2-4329-4070)
Fax:  02-4328-5639   (Int'l: +61-2-4328-5639)
Mobile:  04-1224-1620   (Int'l: +61-4-1224-1620)
Email:kevin.richard...@stanimore.com  or  kevin.richard...@ieee.org 
URL:  www.stanimore.com


Confidentiality 
This material (this email including all attachments) may contain 
confidential and/or privileged information intended to be read or used by the 
addressees only.  If you are not one of the intended recipients or you have 
received this material in error, any copying, disclosure, distribution, use of 
or reliance upon this material is prohibited.  Please immediately notify 
Stanimore Pty Limited and delete/destroy all copies (electronic and hardcopy) 
of this email and all attachments.  While the sender tries to ensure the 
accuracy of the information contained in this material, Stanimore take no 
responsibility for any actions taken as a result of receiving this material or 
for any consequence of its use.


From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2016 6:55 PM
To: Kevin.Richardson
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

Kevin,

I got this requirement from an Australian customer who rejected the 
acceptance of safety report 3 months ago that needs to meet AMT2 in Nov 2016 at 
the latest.  However the shipment arrives in Australia well before Nov 2016.  
Their reason is all the products on the selves or first introduced in Australia 
must comply with the new standard.  This rule is quite different from EU - new 
standard does not apply to already arrived products.

Regards,

Scott


On 4 October 2016 at 06:33, Kevin.Richardson  
wrote:
Hi Scott,
 
Adding to Ted Eckert's, comments..
 
Not sure of the source of your information however, it would depend upon 
the Act or regulation and the nature of the change, i.e. if it is safety 
related it may well require compliance from the date the change was gazetted. 
Typically however, any change would allow a phase-in period during which 
on-sale and first introduced (newly arrived) products may comply with either 
the previous or new requirements.  At the end of that specified phase-in period 
the new requirements would be mandatory.
 
Changes to standards that are mandated by any Act/regulation are generally 
handled in a similar manner.
 
 
Best regards,
Kevin Richardson
 
Stanimore Pty Limited
Compliance Advice & Solutions for Technology
(Legislation/Regulations/Standards/Australian Agent Services)
Ph:   02-4329-4070   (Int'l: +61-2-4329-4070)
Fax:  02-4328-5639   (Int'l: +61-2-4328-5639)
Mobile:  04-1224-1620   (Int'l: +61-4-1224-1620)
Email:kevin.richard...@stanimore.com  or  kevin.richard...@ieee.org 
URL:  www.stanimore.com
 

Confidentiality 

Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

[Scott Xe]

Kevin,

AMT2 is short for amendment 2.

Regards,

Scott




On 5/10/2016, 6:40 AM, "Kevin.Richardson"  wrote:

Scott,

Sorry, I am not familiar with what AMT2 is.


Best regards,
Kevin Richardson

Stanimore Pty Limited
Compliance Advice & Solutions for Technology
(Legislation/Regulations/Standards/Australian Agent Services)
Ph:   02-4329-4070   (Int'l: +61-2-4329-4070)
Fax:  02-4328-5639   (Int'l: +61-2-4328-5639)
Mobile:  04-1224-1620   (Int'l: +61-4-1224-1620)
Email:kevin.richard...@stanimore.com  or  kevin.richard...@ieee.org 
URL:  www.stanimore.com


Confidentiality 
This material (this email including all attachments) may contain 
confidential and/or privileged information intended to be read or used by the 
addressees only.  If you are not one of the intended recipients or you have 
received this material in error, any copying, disclosure, distribution, use of 
or reliance upon this material is prohibited.  Please immediately notify 
Stanimore Pty Limited and delete/destroy all copies (electronic and hardcopy) 
of this email and all attachments.  While the sender tries to ensure the 
accuracy of the information contained in this material, Stanimore take no 
responsibility for any actions taken as a result of receiving this material or 
for any consequence of its use.


From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2016 6:55 PM
To: Kevin.Richardson
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

Kevin,

I got this requirement from an Australian customer who rejected the 
acceptance of safety report 3 months ago that needs to meet AMT2 in Nov 2016 at 
the latest.  However the shipment arrives in Australia well before Nov 2016.  
Their reason is all the products on the selves or first introduced in Australia 
must comply with the new standard.  This rule is quite different from EU - new 
standard does not apply to already arrived products.

Regards,

Scott


On 4 October 2016 at 06:33, Kevin.Richardson  
wrote:
Hi Scott,
 
Adding to Ted Eckert's, comments..
 
Not sure of the source of your information however, it would depend upon 
the Act or regulation and the nature of the change, i.e. if it is safety 
related it may well require compliance from the date the change was gazetted. 
Typically however, any change would allow a phase-in period during which 
on-sale and first introduced (newly arrived) products may comply with either 
the previous or new requirements.  At the end of that specified phase-in period 
the new requirements would be mandatory.
 
Changes to standards that are mandated by any Act/regulation are generally 
handled in a similar manner.
 
 
Best regards,
Kevin Richardson
 
Stanimore Pty Limited
Compliance Advice & Solutions for Technology
(Legislation/Regulations/Standards/Australian Agent Services)
Ph:   02-4329-4070   (Int'l: +61-2-4329-4070)
Fax:  02-4328-5639   (Int'l: +61-2-4328-5639)
Mobile:  04-1224-1620   (Int'l: +61-4-1224-1620)
Email:kevin.richard...@stanimore.com  or  kevin.richard...@ieee.org 
URL:  www.stanimore.com
 

Confidentiality 
This material (this email including all attachments) may contain 
confidential and/or privileged information intended to be read or used by the 
addressees only.  If you are not one of the intended recipients or you have 
received this material in error, any copying, disclosure, distribution, use of 
or reliance upon this material is prohibited.  Please immediately notify 
Stanimore Pty Limited and delete/destroy all copies (electronic and hardcopy) 
of this email and all attachments.  While the sender tries to ensure the 
accuracy of the information contained in this material, Stanimore take no 
responsibility for any actions taken as a result of receiving this material or 
for any consequence of its use.
 
 
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, 3 October 2016 11:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market
 
When there is an update to an Act or a applicable standard, it said it 
applies to both on-sale products meeting previous ones and newly arrived 
products on the effective date.  The retailers must sell out all the stock 
before the effective date or return to the suppliers for alternation in 
compliance with the latest standard.  Is there any legal document to endorse 
this rule?
 
Thanks and regards,
 
Scott
 
 
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To 

Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

[Kevin.Richardson]

Scott,

Sorry, I am not familiar with what AMT2 is.


Best regards,
Kevin Richardson

Stanimore Pty Limited
Compliance Advice & Solutions for Technology
(Legislation/Regulations/Standards/Australian Agent Services)
Ph:   02-4329-4070   (Int'l: +61-2-4329-4070)
Fax:  02-4328-5639   (Int'l: +61-2-4328-5639)
Mobile:  04-1224-1620   (Int'l: +61-4-1224-1620)
Email:kevin.richard...@stanimore.com  or  kevin.richard...@ieee.org 
URL:  www.stanimore.com


Confidentiality 
This material (this email including all attachments) may contain confidential 
and/or privileged information intended to be read or used by the addressees 
only.  If you are not one of the intended recipients or you have received this 
material in error, any copying, disclosure, distribution, use of or reliance 
upon this material is prohibited.  Please immediately notify Stanimore Pty 
Limited and delete/destroy all copies (electronic and hardcopy) of this email 
and all attachments.  While the sender tries to ensure the accuracy of the 
information contained in this material, Stanimore take no responsibility for 
any actions taken as a result of receiving this material or for any consequence 
of its use.


From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2016 6:55 PM
To: Kevin.Richardson
Cc: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

Kevin,

I got this requirement from an Australian customer who rejected the acceptance 
of safety report 3 months ago that needs to meet AMT2 in Nov 2016 at the 
latest.  However the shipment arrives in Australia well before Nov 2016.  Their 
reason is all the products on the selves or first introduced in Australia must 
comply with the new standard.  This rule is quite different from EU - new 
standard does not apply to already arrived products.

Regards,

Scott


On 4 October 2016 at 06:33, Kevin.Richardson  wrote:
Hi Scott,
 
Adding to Ted Eckert's, comments..
 
Not sure of the source of your information however, it would depend upon the 
Act or regulation and the nature of the change, i.e. if it is safety related it 
may well require compliance from the date the change was gazetted. Typically 
however, any change would allow a phase-in period during which on-sale and 
first introduced (newly arrived) products may comply with either the previous 
or new requirements.  At the end of that specified phase-in period the new 
requirements would be mandatory.
 
Changes to standards that are mandated by any Act/regulation are generally 
handled in a similar manner.
 
 
Best regards,
Kevin Richardson
 
Stanimore Pty Limited
Compliance Advice & Solutions for Technology
(Legislation/Regulations/Standards/Australian Agent Services)
Ph:   02-4329-4070   (Int'l: +61-2-4329-4070)
Fax:  02-4328-5639   (Int'l: +61-2-4328-5639)
Mobile:  04-1224-1620   (Int'l: +61-4-1224-1620)
Email:kevin.richard...@stanimore.com  or  kevin.richard...@ieee.org 
URL:  www.stanimore.com
 

Confidentiality 
This material (this email including all attachments) may contain confidential 
and/or privileged information intended to be read or used by the addressees 
only.  If you are not one of the intended recipients or you have received this 
material in error, any copying, disclosure, distribution, use of or reliance 
upon this material is prohibited.  Please immediately notify Stanimore Pty 
Limited and delete/destroy all copies (electronic and hardcopy) of this email 
and all attachments.  While the sender tries to ensure the accuracy of the 
information contained in this material, Stanimore take no responsibility for 
any actions taken as a result of receiving this material or for any consequence 
of its use.
 
 
From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, 3 October 2016 11:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market
 
When there is an update to an Act or a applicable standard, it said it applies 
to both on-sale products meeting previous ones and newly arrived products on 
the effective date.  The retailers must sell out all the stock before the 
effective date or return to the suppliers for alternation in compliance with 
the latest standard.  Is there any legal document to endorse this rule?
 
Thanks and regards,
 
Scott
 
 
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 

Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Ed Price]

Ken:

 

Mostly, it was the fear that the system would fail EMP. We had no way of
getting an exposure test any closer than 0.5% of the required level, so the
risk of failure during the actual test was difficult to quantify, and this
really frightens the program people. I would cajole best practices as
strongly as I could, try to over-engineer what I could get away with, and
closely look at cable routings and build quality, but I still was never sure
what my odds were. A secondary reason was that scheduling an EMP test date
was often longer than the rest of the environmental test program; the last
couple of times, I had the hardware sitting around for over a month until
the EMP testing was due. (And fortunately, both passed on the first try!)

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

 

From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 2:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

 

Ed,

Was EMP last because it might break things, or because the EMP people wanted
to see how the equipment fared after an accelerated life regime?

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



  _  

From: Ed Price 
Reply-To: Ed Price 
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 12:13:31 -0700
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

In a military or space vehicle market, it was common for several systems to
be moving in parallel through the environmental qualification test program.
One system would often see rugged physical testing, where failures could be
very serious setbacks (salt fog immersion, blowing rain, sand & dust, helium
leak testing, solar exposure, transportation shock, drop testing, explosive
shock exposure), while another system would be going through temperature
cycling, vibration, and other more benign tests. This latter system would
usually end up with me doing the acoustic noise and electrical tests
(frequency & voltage extremes, power efficiency, start-up transients, and
applicable powerline/EMC suite).
I don't know how the reliability engineers factored in how one test affected
another, but I do know that, although the sequence of tests before my lab
wasn't always in the same order, the power & EMC tests were usually the last
of the environmental suite. Further, if it was applicable, the NEMP exposure
was the very last test.

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 7:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?
 
Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?
 
Thank you,
 
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
  >
 
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

 
 
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/

  can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
 
Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/  
 
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
 
(including how to unsubscribe) List rules:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

 
 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
 >
Mike Cantwell 
 >
 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
 >
David Heald: 
 >
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.

Website:  

Re: [PSES] PV Connectors: UL 6(9)703?

[Peter Tarver]

Brian -

6703 and 6703A are for PV connectors, as you stated. 9703 is for cable 
assemblies that have cable with connectors integrated into an assembly. The 
connectors used in a 9703 product means the connectors themselves would also 
have to undergo a 6703 evaluation.

"Upgrading to 9703," is not a consideration. These outlines are for different 
product types.

Peter Tarver

From: Brian Gregory [mailto:brian_greg...@netzero.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2016 14:33


I'm trying to find out if UL 6703 (connectors for PV systems) is being upgraded 
to UL 9703 or the other way around.   UL's site isn't helpful - it could be 
drawings I got are just misprinted, but there was a UL 9703, "Outline for 
Investigation"

thanks,

Colorado Brian
720-450-4933
The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. 
It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is 
addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the 
intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in 
any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, 
please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this 
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Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Ken Javor]

Ed,

Was EMP last because it might break things, or because the EMP people wanted
to see how the equipment fared after an accelerated life regime?

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Ed Price 
Reply-To: Ed Price 
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2016 12:13:31 -0700
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

In a military or space vehicle market, it was common for several systems to
be moving in parallel through the environmental qualification test program.
One system would often see rugged physical testing, where failures could be
very serious setbacks (salt fog immersion, blowing rain, sand & dust, helium
leak testing, solar exposure, transportation shock, drop testing, explosive
shock exposure), while another system would be going through temperature
cycling, vibration, and other more benign tests. This latter system would
usually end up with me doing the acoustic noise and electrical tests
(frequency & voltage extremes, power efficiency, start-up transients, and
applicable powerline/EMC suite).
I don¹t know how the reliability engineers factored in how one test affected
another, but I do know that, although the sequence of tests before my lab
wasn¹t always in the same order, the power & EMC tests were usually the last
of the environmental suite. Further, if it was applicable, the NEMP exposure
was the very last test.
 
Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA
 
-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 7:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?
 
Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?
 
Thank you,
 
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
 
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Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Brian O'Connell]

Yes. This can be a requirement (at least for some of my employers customers) 
for vehicular electrical equipment where used for police/fire, or on das boot. 
Also, within last five years do conducted emissions testing on component power 
supplies after a HALT/HASS regression.

Wanna do something interesting? Do surge testing immediately after pulling the 
p/s out of a liquid nitrogen pour (gloves and tongs and masks are recommended).

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 7:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

-

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Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Ed Price]

In a military or space vehicle market, it was common for several systems to
be moving in parallel through the environmental qualification test program.
One system would often see rugged physical testing, where failures could be
very serious setbacks (salt fog immersion, blowing rain, sand & dust, helium
leak testing, solar exposure, transportation shock, drop testing, explosive
shock exposure), while another system would be going through temperature
cycling, vibration, and other more benign tests. This latter system would
usually end up with me doing the acoustic noise and electrical tests
(frequency & voltage extremes, power efficiency, start-up transients, and
applicable powerline/EMC suite).

I don't know how the reliability engineers factored in how one test affected
another, but I do know that, although the sequence of tests before my lab
wasn't always in the same order, the power & EMC tests were usually the last
of the environmental suite. Further, if it was applicable, the NEMP exposure
was the very last test.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

 

-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 7:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

 

Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?

 

Thank you,

 

Ken Javor

Phone: (256) 650-5261

 

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Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Cortland Richmond]

On 10/4/2016 10:34 AM, Ken Javor wrote:

Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?


While I was at Wang Laboratories, 1983-1987, we did this more than a few 
times, and I noted – when we did – that the results were often better 
than those of equipment straight off the production line.


I ascribed that to the oxide coating between conductive surfaces having 
been scrubbed off during vibration testing.


Not all environmental testing leaves equipment operational, of course.

Cortland Richmond

KA5S

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Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Gary McInturff]

That is the preferred method for Mil-810 testing. The rational is that they 
would like this thing to work within its actual environment not as a lab queen, 
I have not seen it required in commercial work. In  my opinion it is one of the 
reasons that major manufacturer's like Dell and others often fail after a few 
shipping cycles between labs, or even after sitting around for a while. They 
are designed not for EMC robust but to be quickly manufactured and easily 
opened to have upgrades added etc. All of this fights against the enclosure 
retaining its shielding effectiveness. I'm sure many of us have spent time 
cleaning seams, gaskets, and blank panels, and other mating surfaces because of 
all the shipping vibration etc. 
If none of you have then neither have I :)
Gary

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 8:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

No personal experience, but I have heard of this procedure. It might also apply 
to safety testing. Logically, EMC and safety testing won't affect the 
environmental test results, but the opposite is not so very improbable.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M 
Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 3:35 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the end 
of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI performance 
after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

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[PSES] CU TR Certification

[Eunice Yang]

Dear Competent Members:

I have a sling which is designed for lifting heave object in the industrial
environment.

I wonder if anyone knows how CU TR certification system works? I contacted
three CBs in Russia and got totally different replies.

Many thanks in advance.

Eunice Yang
CEM International UK Ltd

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Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Doug Powell]

Yes,

When using the safety certification test sample for EMC and when copper
foil was required to get passing results during in-house preliminary
testing.  That said, it was not to frequently done..

-Doug


Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01



On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 8:34 AM, Ken Javor 
wrote:

> Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
> end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
> performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ken Javor
> Phone: (256) 650-5261
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> unsubscribe)
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>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
>



-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

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Re: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[John Woodgate]

No personal experience, but I have heard of this procedure. It might also
apply to safety testing. Logically, EMC and safety testing won't affect the
environmental test results, but the opposite is not so very improbable.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.


-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 3:35 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

-

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Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

[Ted Eckert]

Hello Scott,

I believe this is the website you are requesting.
http://www.productsafety.gov.au/

You will also find that there is significant harmonization with the 
requirements for New Zealand.

Best regards,
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 1:06 AM
To: Ted Eckert 
Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: Put product on the Australia's market

Ted,

Thanks for your useful advice!

Our customer also added NSW has most stringent requirements than others, such 
as Queensland.  How can the supplier manage their goods in compliance with 
different requirements within one country?  Can they ship the goods to 
Queensland first and then transport to NSW for selling - just kidding! Do they 
have a central location to provide the legal requirements for the country 
rather than states?

Regards,

Scott

On 4 October 2016 at 02:24, Ted Eckert 
> wrote:
Hello Scott,

The relevant act or law should specify the date the new requirement comes into 
force and the transitional requirements. Here is an example for AS/NZS 60950-1.
https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2013C00943

Section 6 gives some of the transitional information noting that basic 
requirement is based on when a product is manufactured or imported. This would 
indicate that products already on the shelf at the time of the new requirement 
would not be affected.

The effective dates and transitional requirements can vary significantly even 
between regulatory agencies within one country. The language of the applicable 
statute should be used to determine what products are affected. General 
guidance may not always be accurate for every case even within one country.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer, the ACMA or the Australian government.

From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 5:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

When there is an update to an Act or a applicable standard, it said it applies 
to both on-sale products meeting previous ones and newly arrived products on 
the effective date.  The retailers must sell out all the stock before the 
effective date or return to the suppliers for alternation in compliance with 
the latest standard.  Is there any legal document to endorse this rule?

Thanks and regards,

Scott



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[PSES] When is EMI testing performed?

[Ken Javor]

Have any of you ever seen EMI qualification intentionally scheduled at the
end of environmental qualification for the purpose of assessing EMI
performance after the suite of environmental tests has taken its toll?

Thank you,

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261

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Re: [PSES] [RFI] Part 15 isn't enough..

[dward]

As the discussion is about regulatory requirements in the US, what an 
individual may understand what a particular label does or does not mean and buy 
accordingly, that does not reflect what the requirement of the country are.

I for example, unless I am not familiar with a particular product or product 
manufacturer, do not look at label when buying a product as I expect reputable 
dealers with whom I deal to be aware of the requirements to put the product up 
for sale.  I pay much more attention to the store guarantee about the product.  
 Consequently, when buying TVs, computers, toasters, coffee maker, beds, 
furniture, or any other item, it is generally not an issue.  That has already 
been resolved.

Now, if I go out and buy a product of lesser value and of lesser reputation, 
then 'Caveat Emptor'.  Even then, if buying the product from a reputable 
dealer, their warranty generally resolves issues.

I am what might be called a gagitholic.  I buy a lot of electronic devices, 
etc.  And as a ham, I also buy amateur radio equipment now and then.  And, 
again, labels are of little interest to me as a buyer and the MTBF rates are of 
little concern.  Products in the US are every bit as good and reliable as any 
purchased anywhere else in the world.

But then there is the old adage - buy cheap, get cheap.

​
Dennis Ward
This communication and its attachements contain information from PCTEST 
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confidentiality via distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  Please notify 
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or attachments(s) are free from computer virus or other defect.  Thank you.

-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 4, 2016 4:23 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [RFI] Part 15 isn't enough..

On 10/3/2016 12:08 PM, dward wrote:
> To repeat the obvious.  The fact that the CE marking is or is not on a 
> product in the US is really irrelevant to being able to be sold in the US.  
> The US market is not dependent upon other countries or Unions compliance 
> agendas or standards.  It is only the necessary push by manufacturers to 
> minimize the sizes of labels and yet have one label so as to sell in as many 
> areas of the world as possible, that has made it so irrelevant and/ or 
> unneeded markings, appear on products in The US; but they have absolutely no 
> legal meaning.


Some of us reading this thread will remember having received a bit of a shock 
when our employers decided to sell products in Europe and encountered VDE 0871, 
with an expanded conducted emissions  range and stricter requirements.

Those of us who own and use communications equipment for our employers, 
agencies, or Amateur Radio stations  will also remember looking for the VDE 
label; it was much less likely to cause interference to our own operations and 
more likely to function while we were transmitting.  


This is one reason why many of us in the United States now look for a CE mark. 
Equipment bearing it is at least as good as Part 15 in meeting our needs, and 
it seems more likely to be enforced in countries that DO require it.

Cortland Richmond
KA5S

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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] [RFI] Part 15 isn't enough..

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Absolutely.  I tell this to folks all the time, in particular for the 
immunity/susceptibility.   Especially  all my Caribbean island friends who have 
 to live with daily surges from the grid coming from the local power plant and 
infrastructure where many electronic products have early failures.  Of course 
surge protectors help too.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond [mailto:k...@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2016 7:23 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [RFI] Part 15 isn't enough..

On 10/3/2016 12:08 PM, dward wrote:
> To repeat the obvious.  The fact that the CE marking is or is not on a 
> product in the US is really irrelevant to being able to be sold in the US.  
> The US market is not dependent upon other countries or Unions compliance 
> agendas or standards.  It is only the necessary push by manufacturers to 
> minimize the sizes of labels and yet have one label so as to sell in as many 
> areas of the world as possible, that has made it so irrelevant and/ or 
> unneeded markings, appear on products in The US; but they have absolutely no 
> legal meaning.


Some of us reading this thread will remember having received a bit of a shock 
when our employers decided to sell products in Europe and encountered VDE 0871, 
with an expanded conducted emissions  range and stricter requirements.

Those of us who own and use communications equipment for our employers, 
agencies, or Amateur Radio stations  will also remember looking for the VDE 
label; it was much less likely to cause interference to our own operations and 
more likely to function while we were transmitting.  


This is one reason why many of us in the United States now look for a CE mark. 
Equipment bearing it is at least as good as Part 15 in meeting our needs, and 
it seems more likely to be enforced in countries that DO require it.

Cortland Richmond
KA5S

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Jim Bacher:  
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Re: [PSES] [RFI] Part 15 isn't enough..

[Cortland Richmond]

On 10/3/2016 12:08 PM, dward wrote:

To repeat the obvious.  The fact that the CE marking is or is not on a product 
in the US is really irrelevant to being able to be sold in the US.  The US 
market is not dependent upon other countries or Unions compliance agendas or 
standards.  It is only the necessary push by manufacturers to minimize the 
sizes of labels and yet have one label so as to sell in as many areas of the 
world as possible, that has made it so irrelevant and/ or unneeded markings, 
appear on products in The US; but they have absolutely no legal meaning.



Some of us reading this thread will remember having received a bit of a 
shock when our employers decided to sell products in Europe and 
encountered VDE 0871, with an expanded conducted emissions  range and 
stricter requirements.


Those of us who own and use communications equipment for our employers, 
agencies, or Amateur Radio stations  will also remember looking for the 
VDE label; it was much less likely to cause interference to our own 
operations and more likely to function while we were transmitting.  
This is one reason why many of us in the United States now look for a 
CE mark. Equipment bearing it is at least as good as Part 15 in meeting 
our needs, and it seems more likely to be enforced in countries that DO 
require it.


Cortland Richmond
KA5S

-

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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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[PSES] IEEE EMC Technical Seminar 12 October Nottingham University UK

[Brian Jones]

Everyone

The United Kingdom and Ireland EMC Chapter's next meeting will be held on
the afternoon of 12 October at the University of Nottingham UK.  As usual,
the event is free of charge to everyone, but please note the requirement to
register in advance.  Full details are here
http://www.ieee-ukandireland.org/event/emc-chapter-technical-seminar-on-emc-
and-electromagnetics/ (beware word wrap - copy and paste the whole URL if
the line breaks)

A summary of the papers is given below.

We hope to see many of you there.

Best wishes

Brian Jones
EMC Consultant
EMC Chapter Chair 2016


Welcome - Brian Jones EMC Chapter Chair

The BBC's view of EMC - some hot topics - Martin Wright, EMC Consultant to
the BBC

Automotive EMC Type Approval - Stuart Aust, Senior Compliance Engineer,
HORIBA MIRA Ltd.

Science of Electronics in Extreme EM Environments: AFRL/AFOSR Center
Activities - Professor Thomas M Antonsen Jr., University of Maryland (USA)

Open source cable models - Steve Greedy, University of Nottingham

What does Brexit mean for EMC requirements in the UK? - Brian Jones,
Independent EMC Consultant

Optional tour of University of Nottingham EMC facility

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Re: [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market

[Scott Xe]

Ted,

Thanks for your useful advice!

Our customer also added NSW has most stringent requirements than others,
such as Queensland.  How can the supplier manage their goods in compliance
with different requirements within one country?  Can they ship the goods to
Queensland first and then transport to NSW for selling - just kidding! Do
they have a central location to provide the legal requirements for the
country rather than states?

Regards,

Scott

On 4 October 2016 at 02:24, Ted Eckert  wrote:

> Hello Scott,
>
>
>
> The relevant act or law should specify the date the new requirement comes
> into force and the transitional requirements. Here is an example for AS/NZS
> 60950-1.
>
> https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2013C00943
>
>
>
> Section 6 gives some of the transitional information noting that basic
> requirement is based on when a product is manufactured or imported. This
> would indicate that products already on the shelf at the time of the new
> requirement would not be affected.
>
>
>
> The effective dates and transitional requirements can vary significantly
> even between regulatory agencies within one country. The language of the
> applicable statute should be used to determine what products are affected.
> General guidance may not always be accurate for every case even within one
> country.
>
>
>
> Ted Eckert
>
> Microsoft Corporation
>
>
>
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of
> my employer, the ACMA or the Australian government.
>
>
>
> *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 3, 2016 5:53 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Put product on the Australia's market
>
>
>
> When there is an update to an Act or a applicable standard, it said it
> applies to both on-sale products meeting previous ones and newly arrived
> products on the effective date.  The retailers must sell out all the stock
> before the effective date or return to the suppliers for alternation in
> compliance with the latest standard.  Is there any legal document to
> endorse this rule?
>
>
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
>
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
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>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>

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