Re: [PSES] short range device alternate suppliers and labeling

[Peter Tarver]

My thanks to all for their input.

I chanced on some interesting reading yesterday in Federal Register / Vol. 82, 
No. 211 / Thursday, November 2, 2017 / Rules and Regulations. In this document, 
there are some exceptions to physical labeling where an electronic display of 
the required information is allowed, if certain guidelines are followed.

This is a particularly attractive method to convey the required information and 
a potentially excellent method to address my concerns in this thread.

Has anyone used this method that can identify any foibles and pitfalls? Is a 
similar (or the same) approach accepted by IC?


Regards,

Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Dennis Ward [mailto:dennis.w...@pctest.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 13:07
> To: Peter Tarver ; EMC-
> p...@listserv.ieee.org
> Subject: RE: short range device alternate suppliers and
> labeling
> 
> 
> The ID number of the module inside the actual host must be
> identified.  Option 1 does not do this.  Option 2 is also
> questionable as it probably does not follow the instructions
> provided by the module manufacturer.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Tarver
> [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:44 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] short range device alternate suppliers and
> labeling
> 
> Hello.
> 
> Imagine a Class B product and assume there are two
> suppliers of short range intentional radiator devices that are
> identical and use an identical reference design (one buys
> the device from the other and resells). Both have been
> evaluated using the modular approach for FCC and IC.
> 
> Assume also that there is negligible differences in emissions
> test result.
> 
> For either device, the unit is marked to show the FCC ID and
> the IC ID. To allow these devices to be used interchangeably
> for one another without having to purchase new labels to
> support each device, is it acceptable to label either:
> 
> 1) "May contain FCC ID: , IC ID: yyy or FCC ID: aaa, IC ID:
> bbb," or
> 2) "Contains FCC ID: , IC ID: yyy or FCC ID: aaa, IC ID:
> bbb" with a check box before each set of ID strings?
> 
> Option 1 is preferred, since Option 2 requires a manual
> operation on an otherwise automated production line.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Peter Tarver
> 
> -
> 
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> 
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> 
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Re: [PSES] Safety Link - has changed

[Dan Roman]

Hi Doug,

 

Art Michael sold that URL off a while back.  I do not think it is back up 
permanently but an old copy can be found here:

 

http://shelltown.net/~amichael/

 

Art is not on this list but maybe someone has his contact info?  I thought I 
did but cannot find it at the moment.

 

__
Dan Roman, N.C.E.

Senior Member

IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society

  mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org



 

 

 

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 4:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Safety Link - has changed

 

All,

 

For a number of years I have used a website that now seems to be retired and 
recycled.  Safety Link was great resource and is now a company working in Fall 
Protection.  You can see the changes at archive.org  

 

*   Old: 
​https://web.archive.org/web/20170711180031/http://www.safetylink.com/ 
 ​

 

*   New: 
​https://web.archive.org/web/20171005105521/http://www.safetylink.com/ 
 

​

I understand how websites come and go.  Does anyone know of a similar website 
with up to date links?

 

Thanks,  Doug

 

 

-- 

 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com  
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-


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 >

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For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Re: [PSES] Safety Link - has changed

[Pete Perkins]

Doug, et al,

 

Art Michaels, who ran Safetylink for so many years has retired. 
 



I used it, too and had a paper archived there which I routinely 
directed folks to.  

 

He was working at moving the content to a new site which, I 
believe, that he wanted to name something like safetylynx.  But that name seems 
to be something else, too.  

 

So I don’t know what happened to the info there.  

 

If someone finds him, let us all know.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

  p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Safety Link - has changed

 

All,

 

For a number of years I have used a website that now seems to be retired and 
recycled.  Safety Link was great resource and is now a company working in Fall 
Protection.  You can see the changes at archive.org  

 

*   Old: 
​https://web.archive.org/web/20170711180031/http://www.safetylink.com/ 
 ​

 

*   New: 
​https://web.archive.org/web/20171005105521/http://www.safetylink.com/ 
 

​

I understand how websites come and go.  Does anyone know of a similar website 
with up to date links?

 

Thanks,  Doug

 

 

-- 

 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com  
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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 >

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] Safety Link - has changed

[Doug Powell]

Thanks Dan,

The link looks good although I'm guessing Art will not maintain links as
carefully as before.  Of course I could be wrong about that.

It's very nice having an information clearing house like this.

Best,  Doug


On Nov 14, 2017 6:48 PM, "Dan Roman"  wrote:

> Hi Doug,
>
>
>
> Art Michael sold that URL off a while back.  I do not think it is back up
> permanently but an old copy can be found here:
>
>
>
> http://shelltown.net/~amichael/
>
>
>
> Art is not on this list but maybe someone has his contact info?  I thought
> I did but cannot find it at the moment.
>
>
>
> __
> Dan Roman, N.C.E.
>
> Senior Member
>
> IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>
> mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 14, 2017 4:04 PM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Safety Link - has changed
>
>
>
> All,
>
>
>
> For a number of years I have used a website that now seems to be retired
> and recycled.  Safety Link was great resource and is now a company working
> in Fall Protection.  You can see the changes at archive.org
>
>
>
>- Old: ​https://web.archive.org/web/20170711180031/http://www.
>safetylink.com/
>​
>
>
>
>- New: ​https://web.archive.org/web/20171005105521/http://www.
>safetylink.com/
>
>
> ​
>
> I understand how websites come and go.  Does anyone know of a similar
> website with up to date links?
>
>
>
> Thanks,  Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Douglas E Powell
>
> doug...@gmail.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
>

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formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
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[PSES] Safety Link - has changed

[Doug Powell]

All,

For a number of years I have used a website that now seems to be retired
and recycled.  Safety Link was great resource and is now a company working
in Fall Protection.  You can see the changes at archive.org


   - Old: ​
   https://web.archive.org/web/20170711180031/http://www.safetylink.com/​



   - New: ​
   https://web.archive.org/web/20171005105521/http://www.safetylink.com/

​
I understand how websites come and go.  Does anyone know of a similar
website with up to date links?

Thanks,  Doug


-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] Regulatory requirements for MOVs placed line-to-ground on AC mains ports?

[Richard Nute]

Hi Joe:

You said:

" Unfortunately, Annex Q does not help to define the term "adequate breaking 
capacity" as called for in clause 1.5.9.2 for fuses required in series with the 
MOV."

The term "adequate breaking capacity" means the authors (committee) did not 
know how to determine the parameters.  Or, such determination would take many 
pages in the standard.  Or, most of the committee did not understand the 
parameters necessary to determine "adequate breaking capacity."  The use of the 
term is a cop-out on the part of the committee.

Instead, they left it up to the person or organization using the standard to 
determine the parameters.  

IEC 60950-1, 1.5.9.2, says the VDR must be provided with an interrupting means 
for:

* Temporary overvoltages
* Thermal overload due to increased leakage current
* Burning and bursting of the MOV in the event of a short-circuit fault

1)  A VDR should not operate in the event of a temporary overvoltage.  
Temporary over voltages are root 3 times the normal voltage, and at most 2 
times the normal voltage (for 120 or 230 volt systems).  A VDR that would 
operate at a temporary overvoltage would mean the equipment would not pass the 
electric strength test.  And, of course, it would overheat and fail.  A fuse 
that would provide protection of the VDR in the event of a temporary 
overvoltage would need to be rated for the temporary overvoltage and fault 
condition current.  In the worst case, the fuse would need to be rated more 
than 460 volts!

2)  Because of the small continuous leakage current of a VDR, to protect 
against thermal overload is most effectively done with a thermal protector 
rather than a fuse.  Due to the small thermal mass of a VDR, and the small 
power dissipation due to increased leakage current, coupling a thermal 
protector to the VDR may be difficult.  

3)  Short circuit of what?  A true short-circuit does not dissipate power.  If 
the MOV is short-circuited, then a fuse can do the job.  Or, the MOV can be in 
a fire enclosure that contains the burning MOV and contains the burst fragments 
(but this is not an "interrupting means" and might not be accepted by a 
certification house).  

Note that if the fuse or thermal protector operates, you can't tell the 
difference in the equipment operation until the next transient of sufficient 
voltage to cause a fault in the equipment.  For 120 or 230 volt equipment, this 
may take months or even years!

The easy solution is not use a VDR in equipment.  The installation should have 
transient voltage protection, not equipment.  And, the operation of a VDR 
creates transient overvoltages in other equipment as you concluded in your 
paper at the PSES Symposium several years ago.

My comments don't answer your questions, but widen the perspective.

Best regards,
Rich

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Re: [PSES] Clicks per CISPR 14-1

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Indeed, why not merely add a Peak limit or perhaps better, an Average limit?  
Doing that would avoid an effort to clarify the issue with words.  Avg & QP 
limits have served well in CISPR11 and in CISPR22 for a long time.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Paolo Roncone [mailto:paoloc...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 4:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Clicks per CISPR 14-1

Agree, but that would be a bit too clear...I think there's an office somewhere 
within IEC whose mission is to maximize the intricacy of something already 
intricate
An alternative, but maybe too simple and easy, would be to add peak limits for 
conducted EMI, higher than QP and Average..

Best regards,
Paolo

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 1:42 PM, John Woodgate  wrote:
I still say that the wording of 3.3.3 is not as rigorous as it should be. It 
should read something like: "discontinuous disturbance, the amplitude of which, 
measured with the QP receiver, exceeds the quasi-peak limit for continuous 
disturbance, the duration of which is NOT LONGER than 200 ms and which is 
separated from a subsequent disturbance by at least 200 ms,...". Without that 
clarification, if the amplitude exceeds the limit for however short a time, the 
disturbance is a click.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates http://www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-11-10 12:30, Paolo Roncone wrote:
Hi John, 

I see only an upper duration limit (200 msec), because clicks are 
referenced/measured only with a QP detector. See CISPR 14-1 sec.C2.2 "The 
amplitude of the clicks shall be measured with a receiver having a quasi-peak 
detector according to Clause 4 of CISPR 16-1-1:2015." 
So clicks shorter than 1 ms would not be picked up by a QP detector or at least 
never charge it high enough to reach the QP limit...that's my guess. 

Best regards,
Paolo


On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 12:06 PM, John Woodgate  wrote:
I think the 1 ms attack time ensures that the click is detected. But there is 
an issue with the wording. It appears that a 0.5 ms pulse above the QP  limit 
is a click as defined , but is too short compared with the QP rise-time to show 
 as exceeding the limit. I think there should be a lower limit of duration as 
well as the 200 ms upper limit.
But this probably doesn't help.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates http://www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-11-10 10:37, Paolo Roncone wrote:
Hi all,

Question: 
IF the EUT Mains conducted emissions Quasi-peak levels are under the CISPR 14-1 
Quasi-peak limit (CISPR 14-1 Table 5), when measured with a CISPR 16-1-1 
compliant EMI receiver, is the click procedure/assesment deemed to be complied 
with, or not?
In other words, is there in a PASS case still the need to go through the very 
complicated procedures detailed in sections 4.4, Fig.6 (Flow diagram) and Annex 
C of CISSPR 14-1 for determining, analyzing, measuring and assessing compliance 
of clicks ?

Going through CISPR 14-1 (2016 ed.):
Section 4.4.1 says: "Discontinuous disturbances shall be assessed WHEN they 
exceed the limits for continuous disturbances,.."
Click definition in sec.3.3.3: "discontinuous disturbance, the amplitude of 
which exceeds the quasi-peak limit for continuous disturbance, the duration of 
which is NOT LONGER than 200 ms and which is separated from a subsequent 
disturbance by at least 200 ms,..." 

Now, the charge/discharge times of a Band B (150k-30M) QP receiver = 
1msec/160msec, so a click lasting less than 160msec (see click examples in 
Fig.2 of CISPR 14-1) yet exceeding the QP limit might NOT be picked up by the 
QP receiver during a standard mains conducted EMI measurement..here is the 
origin of my doubts. 

Thanks in advance for any feedback
Paolo
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