Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?

2018-10-20 Thread Michael Derby 
I agree with Michael that this needs to be tested and authorised (certified)
to FCC 15.225.

 

 

Another Michael.

 

 

 

 

From: Heckrotte, Michael [mailto:michael.heckro...@ul.com] 
Sent: 20 October 2018 04:00
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?

 

Digital devices that have a power consumption not exceeding 6 nW are exempt
from specific technical standards per FCC Rules 15.103(f).

 

There are no such exemptions for intentional radiators. See FCC Rules 15.225
for radiated emission limits applicable to radio devices operating on 13.56
MHz.

 

 

Best Regards,

Mike

 

From: Ken Javor mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com> > 
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 5:54 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?

 

I don't know what the FCC rules are on something like this - others on this
forum are much better informed on that topic - but if the ERP is 0 dBm (1
mW), then at three meters away the field intensity would be 58 mV/m, or 95
dBuV/m.  Now this is at 13.56 MHz, where there is no FCC RE limit. But the
FCC Class B three meter limit at 30 MHz is something like 40 dBuV/m (someone
jump in if I got this wrong) so that means the third harmonic must be 55 dB
down from the fundamental.  That is certainly doable, but I wouldn't take it
for granted without some sort of verification.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



  _  

From: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> >
Reply-To: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> >
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 17:22:50 -0500
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?

Esteemed fellow listers --



I'm looking at a very low power, intermittent NFC card reader/writer.
Alkaline battery operated device. NFC is only energized for 10 seconds at a
time on demand, and range to read/write is less than 1 cm from the surface
of the device.



I'm not an EE, but my simplified thought process is: "I can barely get this
to couple magnetically with a card sitting on its surface. How could I
possibly interfere with broadcast services or other equipment?"



So, oh wise ones, from your experience what actions with respect to FCC are
reasonable to do? For example, radiated emissions testing seems to me like a
total waste of time and money.



More technical details: maximum input power to the NFC chip is 17 mW. Chip
is coupled to a flat 30mm x 40mm "NFC Ferrite Antenna (13.56 MHz)" that my
EE describes as "zero gain." We're rating RF output as 0 mW (i.e., rounding
off, it's a lot closer to 0 mW than to 1 mW).



Looking forward once again to interesting wisdom from this group.



Mike Sherman

Graco Inc.
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Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?

2018-10-20 Thread James Pawson (U3C) 
Hello Mike,

The radiated emissions measurements I've made on NFC card readers and tags have 
been overwhelmingly quiet. Certainly no significant emissions from the 
intentional radiator part.

The biggest contributor to any radiated emissions test was the system digital 
controller and emissions from USB or equivalent. Since the system is unlikely 
to exist in isolation you'll have to consider this part.

Hope this helps
James 

 MIKE SHERMAN wrote 

>Esteemed fellow listers --
>
>
>I'm looking at a very low power, intermittent NFC card reader/writer. Alkaline 
>battery operated device. NFC is only energized for 10 seconds at a time on 
>demand, and range to read/write is less than 1 cm from the surface of the 
>device.
>
>
>I'm not an EE, but my simplified thought process is: "I can barely get this to 
>couple magnetically with a card sitting on its surface. How could I possibly 
>interfere with broadcast services or other equipment?"
>
>
>So, oh wise ones, from your experience what actions with respect to FCC are 
>reasonable to do? For example, radiated emissions testing seems to me like a 
>total waste of time and money.
>
>
>More technical details: maximum input power to the NFC chip is 17 mW. Chip is 
>coupled to a flat 30mm x 40mm "NFC Ferrite Antenna (13.56 MHz)" that my EE 
>describes as "zero gain." We're rating RF output as 0 mW (i.e., rounding off, 
>it's a lot closer to 0 mW than to 1 mW).
>
>
>Looking forward once again to interesting wisdom from this group.
>
>
>Mike Sherman
>
>Graco Inc.
>
>-
>
>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
>discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
>
>
>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
>Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
>http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
>formats), large files, etc.
>
>Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
>unsubscribe)
>List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
>For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>Scott Douglas 
>Mike Cantwell 
>
>For policy questions, send mail to:
>Jim Bacher:  
>David Heald: 

-

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Re: [PSES] NFC (near field communication): FCC Approach?

2018-10-20 Thread alfred1520list 
I'm not smart enough to add to the topic, but I sense something not to be over 
looked:

MIKE SHERMAN wrote:

> I'm not an EE

and 

> We're rating RF output as 0 mW (i.e., rounding off, it's a lot closer to 0 mW 
> than to 1 mW).

and Heckrotte, Michael wrote:

> Digital devices that have a power consumption not exceeding 6 nW are exempt 
> from specific technical standards per FCC Rules 15.103(f).

Not to over looked is the disparity in unit.  Thinking between 0 mW and 1 mW is 
in linear unit.  However radio frequency emissions are usually expressed in 
logarithmic unit.  The commonly encountered range of RF power expressed in 
logarithmic term is between -100 dBm to +60 dBm. In linear terms they are 10 nW 
to 1 kW.  That's a huge range, and more specifically, there is a lot of 
difference between 0 mW and 1 mW.

From what Michael wrote about, 6 nW is more about 160,000 times smaller than 1 
mW and yet is not exempted.

Heckrotte, Michael also wrote:

> There are no such exemptions for intentional radiators. See FCC Rules 15.225 
> for radiated emission limits applicable 

to radio devices operating on 13.56 MHz

And an NFC device intentionally radiate RF energy in order to communicate 
wirelessly.

Sincerely,
Alfred Lee


On October 19, 2018 3:22:50 PM PDT, MIKE SHERMAN  wrote:
>Esteemed fellow listers --
>
>
>I'm looking at a very low power, intermittent NFC card reader/writer.
>Alkaline battery operated device. NFC is only energized for 10 seconds
>at a time on demand, and range to read/write is less than 1 cm from the
>surface of the device.
>
>
>I'm not an EE, but my simplified thought process is: "I can barely get
>this to couple magnetically with a card sitting on its surface. How
>could I possibly interfere with broadcast services or other equipment?"
>
>
>So, oh wise ones, from your experience what actions with respect to FCC
>are reasonable to do? For example, radiated emissions testing seems to
>me like a total waste of time and money.
>
>
>More technical details: maximum input power to the NFC chip is 17 mW.
>Chip is coupled to a flat 30mm x 40mm "NFC Ferrite Antenna (13.56 MHz)"
>that my EE describes as "zero gain." We're rating RF output as 0 mW
>(i.e., rounding off, it's a lot closer to 0 mW than to 1 mW).
>
>
>Looking forward once again to interesting wisdom from this group.
>
>
>Mike Sherman
>
>Graco Inc.
>
>-
>
>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
>emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
>e-mail to 
>
>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
>http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
>Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site
>at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
>well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
>Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
>Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
>unsubscribe)
>List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
>For help, send mail to the list administrators:
>Scott Douglas 
>Mike Cantwell 
>
>For policy questions, send mail to:
>Jim Bacher:  
>David Heald: 

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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