Re: [PSES] BBC news article re Li-ion batteries...

[Patrick]

Hi Ted

Thank you for the interesting read on NYC deliveries.  With the size of the
NYC food market, the economic forces must be immense.  Economic markets
have a way of creating solutions.  In this market, the first person with a
good solution will win big!  Seriously interesting problem!




On Fri, Jul 28, 2023, 06:39 Ted Eckert <
07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> wrote:

> I can give additional background on the reason why these fires have become
> common in New York. A large number of residents of New York City use
> delivery services for goods and food, such as Uber-Eats, DoorDash, and
> GrubHub. The adoption of these delivery services accelerated during the
> COVID lockdown, and it has become a major business in the city. The drivers
> for these services are contractors, not employees, and they get paid based
> on delivery without reimbursement for expenses. Driving a car is expensive,
> and finding parking is very hard. Delivery people who drive cars often lose
> money because they incur too many parking tickets. The delivery people have
> switched to battery-powered electric scooters and bicycles.
>
>
>
> These small electric vehicles are optimal for the delivery services since
> they can move around stopped traffic easily, and they can be brought inside
> the door of a building for a delivery, avoiding the risk of parking fines
> or the vehicle getting stolen. However, the batteries will only last for a
> few hours of use at most. The delivery people want the option of using the
> electric bicycle or scooter all day to try to make more money. The common
> solution is to remove the battery that came with the vehicle and replace it
> with a much larger after-market replacement. The delivery services do not
> pay well, so people look for the cheapest option they can find for a large
> battery. The regulations in the United States make it easy to order
> something online that has undergone no safety testing at all. The result is
> that a battery of dubious quality is placed in an electric bicycle by a
> person with dubious technical skills. No effort may have been made to match
> the charger with the battery. The battery may not be provided with the
> physical protection necessary to avoid damage during use. The question
> isn’t why there are so many fires, but why there aren’t more considering
> the circumstances.
>
>
>
> In the United States, there is reasonable indemnification of the test
> laboratories. The test laboratories accredited under the OSHA Nationally
> Recognized Test Laboratory (NRTL) system have a reasonable level of
> protection. If a product carrying one of their certification marks fails,
> they can be sued, but it would be hard for that law suit to make it to
> court. The test laboratories will indicate that they tested samples on a
> given date and found those samples to meet the technical requirements of
> the standard at that time. Their report does not state that the samples
> were safe. It only states that they passed testing of specific
> requirements. The legal system places the responsibility for safety onto
> the manufacturer.
>
>
>
> The challenges that I see are that battery manufacturers willing to ignore
> safety might be willing to forge safety certification marks and documents.
> I strongly suspect you can buy product online and have them shipped to the
> UK or Europe with a Declaration of Conformity based on nothing. I suspect
> manufacturers will claim their products meet requirements without testing
> or documentation to back it up. If the manufacturer is located outside of
> Europe and has no legal presence there, they can sell on line and avoid
> responsibility. I strongly suspect that this is why there are stricter
> requirements for online importers and distributors in the new GPSR.
>
>
>
> The overall issue is not new. Insufficient testing, forged or missing
> documentation, irresponsible actors shipping from the far side of the world
> and the other problems have existed for a while. However, the large size of
> the batteries in these scooters and bicycles, and the common charging of
> them indoors in buildings with a large number of residents, creates an
> issue where a failure can jeopardize many more lives in a single incident.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ted Eckert
>
>
>
> *The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of
> my employer.*
>
>
>
> *From:* Matthew Wilson | GBE 
> *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2023 2:11 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [PSES] BBC news article re Li-ion batteries...
>
>
>
> I thought this news article that was on the BBC TV broadcast bulletins 27
> th July might be of interest.
>
>
>
> “Batteries for e-bikes should be regulated in the same way as fireworks,
> heavy machinery or medical devices because of the fire risk they pose, a
> charity [UK based Electrical Safety First] has said”
>
>
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66304564
>
>
>
>
>
> *Disclaimer:**​*
>  This 

Re: [PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS installed?

[Douglas Nix]

Hi John,

Sure - I can see that for equipment approved to 508A. But this equipment is 
designed and built to NFPA 79 and EN 60204-1. In this particular case I’m only 
involved in assisting the client in CE Marking the machines, so that’s the 
focus.

Doug Nix

“All code is guilty until proven innocent” - Software Testing Fundamentals

https://softwaretestingfundamentals.com



> On Aug 4, 2023, at 10:20, John Cochran  wrote:
> 
> UL requires us to apply a 'UPS Voltage Present When Off' label for UL 508A 
> mobile carts we build with a UPS installed.  Inspector considers it a safety 
> violation if the label is not on the access panel or door.
> 
> John
> 
> John Cochran
> Compliance Manager
> jcoch...@strongarm.com 
> 
>  
> Industrial workstations and mountings for the frontline workforce.
> 
> Strongarm Designs, Inc.
> 425 Caredean Drive | Horsham, PA 19044
> (800) 778-7901  • strongarm.com 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Ralph McDiarmid mailto:rmm.priv...@gmail.com>> 
> Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2023 13:26
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS 
> installed?
> 
> CAUTION: This message originated from outside Strongarm. Do not open 
> attachments or click on links if you do not recognize the sender.
> 
> 
> Doug, a quick search through NFPA70 (USA national electrical code) says in 
> article 645 Information Technology Equipment:
> 
> 645.16 Marking. Each unit of an information technology system supplied by a 
> branch circuit shall be provided with a  manufacturer's nameplate, which 
> shall also include the input power requirements for voltage, frequency, and 
> maximum rated load in amperes.
> 
> I endorse John Woodgate's answer;  if in doubt, label it.
> 
> I'm delighted to see a few familiar names after my long hiatus from this
> forum.   I'm now semi-retired from the industry.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> From: Doug Nix 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2023 2:24 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS installed?
> 
> Colleagues,
> 
> I have a client who has installed a COTS UPS in an industrial control panel.
> The UPS is being used to keep the HMI alive in a power outage or if the 
> disconnecting device is switched off.
> 
> I have scoured the resources that I have, and I can find nothing that 
> requires a label on the outside of the panel to indicate that there is a UPS 
> inside. EN 60204-1:2018 does not address this. I have a copy of EN IEC 
> 62040-1, and it does not require a hazard warning label anywhere.
> 
> Any guidance you might offer is appreciated.
> 
> Doug Nix
> mailto:d...@ieee.org
> +1 (519) 729-5704
> 
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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> 
> -
> 
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> 
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Re: [PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS installed?

[John Cochran]

UL requires us to apply a 'UPS Voltage Present When Off' label for UL 508A mobile carts we build with a UPS installed.  Inspector considers it a safety violation if the label is not on the access panel or door.

John



   


  
  
John Cochran
Compliance Manager
jcoch...@strongarm.com

Industrial workstations and mountings for the frontline workforce.
Strongarm Designs, Inc.
425 Caredean Drive | Horsham, PA 19044
(800) 778-7901 • strongarm.com

  
  


  


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid  
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2023 13:26
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS installed?

CAUTION: This message originated from outside Strongarm. Do not open attachments or click on links if you do not recognize the sender.


Doug, a quick search through NFPA70 (USA national electrical code) says in article 645 Information Technology Equipment:

645.16 Marking. Each unit of an information technology system supplied by a branch circuit shall be provided with a  manufacturer's nameplate, which shall also include the input power requirements for voltage, frequency, and maximum rated load in amperes.

I endorse John Woodgate's answer;  if in doubt, label it.

I'm delighted to see a few familiar names after my long hiatus from this
forum.   I'm now semi-retired from the industry.

Ralph

From: Doug Nix 
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2023 2:24 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Hazard warning labels on panel doors where COTS UPS installed?

Colleagues,

I have a client who has installed a COTS UPS in an industrial control panel.
The UPS is being used to keep the HMI alive in a power outage or if the disconnecting device is switched off.

I have scoured the resources that I have, and I can find nothing that requires a label on the outside of the panel to indicate that there is a UPS inside. EN 60204-1:2018 does not address this. I have a copy of EN IEC 62040-1, and it does not require a hazard warning label anywhere.

Any guidance you might offer is appreciated.

Doug Nix
mailto:d...@ieee.org
+1 (519) 729-5704


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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-

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_
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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