Re: [PSES] AI & Regulatory Compliance
Hi all, ChatGPT is just joining of words and characters using model called transformer that may sometimes, sound reasonable to human. AI is certainly cannot replacing human after all human is much more intelligent with wisdom too.AI don't have wisdom, feeling and etc. Thus, human cannot be replace regardless. Regards, Vincent On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 02:31:09 AM GMT+8, Ralph McDiarmid wrote: I would add that about 9 out of 10 power engineers I’ve worked with over the years are equally confused with the “convention” of power factor and sign convention of real and reactive power flow. Microelectronics engineers also often get the sign convention wrong when considering current source or sink from a logic gate or an op-amp. I wouldn’t beat up on ChatGPT for struggling with that very specific topic. Ralph From: Brian Gregory Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2023 9:16 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] AI & Regulatory Compliance Chat GPT is essentially a BS generator. A very smart friend, a very successful entrepreneur, finds it quite useful for writing add copy, which I think proved my point. The one time I tried challenging GPT with a question on power factor with generator convention (where positive power generation is represented as negative), it failed miserably. Echoing Dan's point; what other AI's are more suitable to electrical engineering concepts, including testing and reviewing lists of standards? If I had to pick one question for an AI I think might qualify would be: " does this requirement apply to a residential unit? " Colorado Brian -- Forwarded Message -- From: Dan Roman <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] AI & Regulatory Compliance Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2023 22:21:26 -0400 Has anyone tried feeding a standard or set of standards, into Chat GPT for example, and ask it product construction or testing questions? I've seen demos of Chat GPT digesting complex equipment manuals and being able to generate what amounts to a quick start guide and answer questions about operating or servicing the equipment. I can't try this with the free version. -- Dan Roman danp...@verizon.net On Oct 9, 2023, at 7:31 PM, Douglas Powell wrote: I've done some playing around with ChatGPT, Claude.AI, Perplexity.AI, BIng Chatbot, and a few others. My first test was to see if these Large Language Models (LLM) could accurately answer questions where I feel I have good expertise, such as "How do I select a complete list of safety-critical components using UL XYZ?" or "Write a comprehensive Test Protocol for a kitchen appliance using IEC 60335-*X-X." For the most part they failed in several points when the questions got just a little technical. Sometimes, I would challenge the AI on answers it gave, and occasionally it would backpedal. Even so, I do find them useful as a starting point for writing White Papers and PowerPoint slides or procedural documents at the paragraph-level, for internal distribution. Try prompting an AI to generate 20 PowerPoint slides for basic Risk Assessment Training using ISO 31000. In every case however, I only use AI to do the initial grunt work and then personally edit everything for accuracy. So far, my favorite is Perplexity.AI because it gives attribution of sources for all its answers, second place is possibly Claude.AI. And been using QuillBot.AI to check grammar and paraphrase complex paragraphs. But when it comes to life-safety issues, I will always be very careful and check the work. Incidentally, I've tried a few fun things as a lunchtime diversion. I'll prompt the AI with something like: "Entropy simply isn’t what it used to be." or "Schrödinger’s cat walks into a bar. And doesn’t." And of course the AI never gets the joke. -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado, USA LinkedIn (UTC-06:00, US-MDT) On Fri, Oct 6, 2023 at 3:59 PM Regan Arndt wrote: Greetings fellow members, Our industry will not be immune to this new era of AI technology and want to bring up this topic again to obtain some more insight from the forum into: "How do you think AI will play a future role in our Regulatory compliance world?" I can see some real benefits to this when applying it to a risk assessment, EMC redesign including change out of critical components, & possibly to help support engineering judgments in lieu of testing (i.e. temperature modeling), etc.…though I think we would have to include the usage of AI as one of the potential risks in the risk assessment. lol UL touched base on this topic during their UL Innovations summit held in Fremont, CA yesterday. I know there is the ISO/IEC DTR 5469 in development, but this appears, I believe, to only address functional safety of the AI systems in question, and not addressing AI in
[PSES] SV: [PSES] IEC/EN62368-1 includes requirements (Annex M) to IEC/EN 62133-2
Thanks, James! Seems we might have an issue here since the cells are not IEC62133-2 approved. But the cells are UN38.3 certified. And we are now running UN38.3 on the complete product (product and cells includes). Do you know if such UN38.3 tests will be good as IEC62133-2 compliance? BR Amund -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: James Pawson (U3C) Sendt: 16. oktober 2023 16:39 Til: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Emne: Re: [PSES] IEC/EN62368-1 includes requirements (Annex M) to IEC/EN 62133-2 Hi Amund, Annex M (batteries) is normative = shall comply. You only get to comply with Annex M if you pass M.2.1 which requires that cells comply with the relevant IEC standard. IEC 62133 (all parts) are in Annex ZA as an undated reference meaning you should be looking to use the latest one - this is currently IEC 62133-2:2017+A1:2021. Many (reputable) battery manufacturers will be aware of this and will have battery packs that are pre-certified to the latest standard. All the best James James Pawson Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver Unit 3 Compliance Ltd EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy www.unit3compliance.co.uk | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 -Original Message- From: Amund Westin Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 3:27 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] IEC/EN62368-1 includes requirements (Annex M) to IEC/EN 62133-2 An IT product must comply to EN62368-1. It contains Lithium LiPo batter. According to EN/IEC62368-1-1:2020, § M.2 Safety of batteries and their cells, the standard IEC 62133-2 is listed, and batteries and cells shall comply according to that standard. Could this be interpreted as an invariable requirement, that if you are to fulfill EN62368-1 and have LiPo cells in your product, then the cells must comply with this standard IEC 62133-2? How well known is IEC 62133-2? Thanks! BR Amund - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1
[PSES] FCC product registration - listed module
I finally got the feedback I was seeking from a swarm of quotes for EMC testing for FCC and ISED, concerning qualifying a product with an FCC-registered WiFi module deployed onto our PCB. I've tried processing the FCC orders on what upholds or doesn't when placing the module on your PCB and came away more confused than before. The official way to test, measure and report that your WiFi module is still OK when mounted on your board is via the FCC guideline, KDB 996369 for Spurious Emissions. This saves the whole suite of intentional radiator testing to the tune of $15-20k. What I am faced with is that our product already did the full testing, and got its own FCC ID, so taking this approach will probably require re-registration with FCC, am I correct? Next question is: can one keep Bluetooth (BT) classic, but dispense with BT/Low Energy easily? This also costs an extra $6-7k in an EMC lab and I don't even know how much BTLE is really used. All the best,Colorado Brian - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1
Re: [PSES] IEC/EN62368-1 includes requirements (Annex M) to IEC/EN 62133-2
Hi Amund, Annex M (batteries) is normative = shall comply. You only get to comply with Annex M if you pass M.2.1 which requires that cells comply with the relevant IEC standard. IEC 62133 (all parts) are in Annex ZA as an undated reference meaning you should be looking to use the latest one - this is currently IEC 62133-2:2017+A1:2021. Many (reputable) battery manufacturers will be aware of this and will have battery packs that are pre-certified to the latest standard. All the best James James Pawson Managing Director & EMC Problem Solver Unit 3 Compliance Ltd EMC : Environmental & Vibration : Electrical Safety : CE & UKCA : Consultancy www.unit3compliance.co.uk | ja...@unit3compliance.co.uk +44(0)1274 911747 | +44(0)7811 139957 2 Wellington Business Park, New Lane, Bradford, BD4 8AL Registered in England and Wales # 10574298 -Original Message- From: Amund Westin Sent: Monday, October 16, 2023 3:27 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] IEC/EN62368-1 includes requirements (Annex M) to IEC/EN 62133-2 An IT product must comply to EN62368-1. It contains Lithium LiPo batter. According to EN/IEC62368-1-1:2020, § M.2 Safety of batteries and their cells, the standard IEC 62133-2 is listed, and batteries and cells shall comply according to that standard. Could this be interpreted as an invariable requirement, that if you are to fulfill EN62368-1 and have LiPo cells in your product, then the cells must comply with this standard IEC 62133-2? How well known is IEC 62133-2? Thanks! BR Amund - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1
[PSES] IEC/EN62368-1 includes requirements (Annex M) to IEC/EN 62133-2
An IT product must comply to EN62368-1. It contains Lithium LiPo batter. According to EN/IEC62368-1-1:2020, § M.2 Safety of batteries and their cells, the standard IEC 62133-2 is listed, and batteries and cells shall comply according to that standard. Could this be interpreted as an invariable requirement, that if you are to fulfill EN62368-1 and have LiPo cells in your product, then the cells must comply with this standard IEC 62133-2? How well known is IEC 62133-2? Thanks! BR Amund - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: https://www.mail-archive.com/emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org/ Website: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/ Instructions: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: https://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Mike Sherman at: msherma...@comcast.net Rick Linford at: linf...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: _ To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link: https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC&A=1
