Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product
Thank you again for all your responses. It is appreciated. From: Greg McClure Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 8:16 AM To: Charles Jackson ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product External email: Use caution opening links or attachments In our experience: Argentina, Australia and China (PRC) cords are mutually exclusive and cannot be bundled together. Brazil no longer accepts any cord that looks like a US NEMA 5-15 plug. India and South Africa cords are mutually exclusive unless you can get one that carries certifications for both countries. Japan, Taiwan and the US are mutually exclusive due to different certification requirements for the plugs and cordage. There may be ways around some of these but they tend to drive up the cost of the cordset. Regards, Gregory H. McClure Lexmark Product Safety Product Safety Team Lead 859-232-3240 office From: Charles Jackson <156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 10:45 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product Thanks, I appreciate the feedback! Sounds like there have been no legal/importation issues bundling cord sets with a product. Chuck From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 7:16 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product External email: Use caution opening links or attachments We build a top-level generic and then pack the power cord right before crating. Where we run into issues is when we have a distributor in Europe or Asia orders the machine based on their location but the end-user is in a different country. Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, OH | 330-342-2402 From: Scott Douglas mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com>> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 2:49 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Chuck, We ship up to 4 power cords with plenty of products without any issues. The only complaint is from product managers trying to squeeze every last bit of margin out of products. Those extra $6 or so get thrown out in most cases. In past lives we did what Doug suggested. Made the power cord a separate line on the customer order. That worked well for us. Only issue there was the power cord was not packed in the box with the product. Scott On Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 11:19 AM Douglas E Powell mailto:doug...@gmail.com>> wrote: Chuck, My experience has been that sometimes it works, other times not. I understand the desire ensure the end user get the cord set they actually need, but I've also seen where there is backlash. Some recipients simply throw away the cord they don't need. The best solution I've seen, is to structure top-level BOMs with a generic product BOM as one of the "components" and then add country specific sub-assemblies, labels, translated user manuals, etc. I've even seen where top-level BOMs will have the 2-letter ISO 3166 country code baked into the part number. Keeping in mind, the ISO 639 language codes are not the same as country codes. Best of luck, Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fdougp01=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40NVIDIA.COM%7C94788d49dd434bd842df08d94d23a3ea%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637625637744678960%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=pIDM9jQ%2FQDWPPlKId6wYMCRzTyakYJ4JBoNQ9j28quU%3D=0> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:01 PM Charles Jackson <156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> wrote: Hello I'm wondering if anyone has experience and/or specific information on legal/customs requirements that restrict the bundling of multiple region power cord-sets with a product. Thanks in advance Chuck - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam11.safeli
Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product
Thanks, I appreciate the feedback! Sounds like there have been no legal/importation issues bundling cord sets with a product. Chuck From: Stultz, Mark <0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2021 7:16 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product External email: Use caution opening links or attachments We build a top-level generic and then pack the power cord right before crating. Where we run into issues is when we have a distributor in Europe or Asia orders the machine based on their location but the end-user is in a different country. Mark Stultz | CMSE(r) | Sealed Air | Automated Packaging Systems | Streetsboro, OH | 330-342-2402 From: Scott Douglas mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com>> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 2:49 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Chuck, We ship up to 4 power cords with plenty of products without any issues. The only complaint is from product managers trying to squeeze every last bit of margin out of products. Those extra $6 or so get thrown out in most cases. In past lives we did what Doug suggested. Made the power cord a separate line on the customer order. That worked well for us. Only issue there was the power cord was not packed in the box with the product. Scott On Wed, Jul 21, 2021, 11:19 AM Douglas E Powell mailto:doug...@gmail.com>> wrote: Chuck, My experience has been that sometimes it works, other times not. I understand the desire ensure the end user get the cord set they actually need, but I've also seen where there is backlash. Some recipients simply throw away the cord they don't need. The best solution I've seen, is to structure top-level BOMs with a generic product BOM as one of the "components" and then add country specific sub-assemblies, labels, translated user manuals, etc. I've even seen where top-level BOMs will have the 2-letter ISO 3166 country code baked into the part number. Keeping in mind, the ISO 639 language codes are not the same as country codes. Best of luck, Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fdougp01=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C5ffa5e92a16b4fb3919808d94d1b41d9%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637625602582147783%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=yEv5ErxjZvFTEC%2BsWf4k0Oefierz%2FxgT2vM89dUa0PU%3D=0> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:01 PM Charles Jackson <156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> wrote: Hello I'm wondering if anyone has experience and/or specific information on legal/customs requirements that restrict the bundling of multiple region power cord-sets with a product. Thanks in advance Chuck - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C5ffa5e92a16b4fb3919808d94d1b41d9%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637625602582157742%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=L1OnlWFc3AFwe6ebNqfK3qYoP7Iv5IbE4D8gCHa1myc%3D=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C5ffa5e92a16b4fb3919808d94d1b41d9%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637625602582157742%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=sy4QmpM572nu9eewZ6vLq1WN9jOo2fS39rsE0Y00vRA%3D=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C5ffa5e92a16b4fb3919808d94d1b41d9%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637625602582167700%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000=OCSmv7pXOJtibawFBRxIMySrs9FqLE%2F%2BAtPY
Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product
Thanks for the feedback Doug From: Douglas E Powell Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2021 11:19 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product External email: Use caution opening links or attachments Chuck, My experience has been that sometimes it works, other times not. I understand the desire ensure the end user get the cord set they actually need, but I've also seen where there is backlash. Some recipients simply throw away the cord they don't need. The best solution I've seen, is to structure top-level BOMs with a generic product BOM as one of the "components" and then add country specific sub-assemblies, labels, translated user manuals, etc. I've even seen where top-level BOMs will have the 2-letter ISO 3166 country code baked into the part number. Keeping in mind, the ISO 639 language codes are not the same as country codes. Best of luck, Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fdougp01=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C7f4ff9662d504e738f2108d94c741ba7%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637624883830894679%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=s8ic%2Bu8h%2Fz8TGsm2hPKKy57RVHVGPvnnllQVOjnf358%3D=0> On Wed, Jul 21, 2021 at 12:01 PM Charles Jackson <156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org<mailto:156eedbcc0fd-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>> wrote: Hello I'm wondering if anyone has experience and/or specific information on legal/customs requirements that restrict the bundling of multiple region power cord-sets with a product. Thanks in advance Chuck - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C7f4ff9662d504e738f2108d94c741ba7%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637624883830904637%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=tJlagW%2BRTEX%2FaUpXkxDrX8%2BolQstvajHFV5cZt3FBHM%3D=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C7f4ff9662d504e738f2108d94c741ba7%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637624883830904637%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=ZD0%2FviqGwgtf2kr8Q3NhK5jGleyPkzaKEjzPAms9jps%3D=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C7f4ff9662d504e738f2108d94c741ba7%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637624883830914600%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=ikICIfG4Qtkdn8N4MvNKT2PnOEE3IG30aC0Sg6fObOY%3D=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C7f4ff9662d504e738f2108d94c741ba7%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637624883830924553%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=h595LpycaunGnCo5KISsqpnB6UXGW3AGBl2RLGPm3kA%3D=0> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html=04%7C01%7CCJackson%40nvidia.com%7C7f4ff9662d504e738f2108d94c741ba7%7C43083d15727340c1b7db39efd9ccc17a%7C0%7C0%7C637624883830924553%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=7VVsY9ym1Gd9%2BZM0oz%2FUtG2x0ApEqZnP326vBeAforg%3D=0> For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> -- Douglas E Powell doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%
[PSES] Multiple Power cord-sets bundled with product
Hello I'm wondering if anyone has experience and/or specific information on legal/customs requirements that restrict the bundling of multiple region power cord-sets with a product. Thanks in advance Chuck - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368
Ted, John, Chuck Thank you the feedback. Much appreciated. From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 12:57 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368 External email: Use caution opening links or attachments Hi Chuck, The biggest change that I have seen is for touch temperatures. IEC 60950-1 allows continuous contact with plastic at 75 C. Even glass is allows a continuous temperature of 70 C. Imagine using one of those new glass-bodied cell phones with it at that temperature. IEC 62368-1 reduces the continuous contact temperature limit to 48 C for all materials. There were probably many older laptop computers with plastic cases that could exceed 48 C on the bottom surface during use. Those laptops would not comply with IEC 62368-1. This isn't the only item to consider, but it's the one I'm most familiar with. There are additional issues related to fire enclosures where a product could pass IEC 60950-1 but fail IEC 62368-1 2nd Edition. However, these issues have largely be resolved with IEC 62368-1 3rd edition. TC 108 recognized that there were many constructions allowed under IEC 60950-1 that were shown to be acceptable through years of use, yet disallowed by IEC 62368-1 2nd edition. Many issues were resolved with the update. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions experessed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or TC 108. From: Chuck August-McDowell mailto:chu...@meyersound.com>> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 11:33 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368 Hi Charles, Only slightly off your topic "Has anyone experienced having an ITE product that complies with IEC60950 requirements, but does not comply with some portions IEC 62368?" I work on the audio side so our base standard is 60065. So to rephrase the question; "Has anyone experienced having an audio product that complies with IEC 60065 requirements, but does not comply with some portions IEC 62368? " I was informed during factory audit the Hipot test voltage changed from 1500 VAC to 1768 VAC ? Oh, and outdoor use also changes from IEC 62368 2ed, calls for using 60950-22 at current editions, which the 2005 edition did not require a dust test, but new (required) 2nd edition requires a dust test, where as 60065 required only IPX4 testing. Let the testing begin! Respectfully, Chuck August-McDowell From: Charles Jackson mailto:cjack...@nvidia.com>> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 7:57 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368 [EXTERNAL EMAIL] Has anyone experienced having an ITE product that complies with IEC60950 requirements, but does not comply with some portions IEC 62368? In particular the use of a non-LPS psu. Is there some sort of risk analysis that can be done to prove up conformance to the directive based on 60950 with or without supplemental test?? Thanks in advance Chuck - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cf5a6887467a043f7a2da08d85b381f3f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637359644507649630=h0HbHblABnRjPhBUuYXKfv8BVUN02n5OBcgSGaSxSSo%3D=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cf5a6887467a043f7a2da08d85b381f3f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637359644507659584=sho8R5QaT2nnwzxgJR5YhDfZuStsksl78YPjJGldoM0%3D=0> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cf5a6887467a043f7a2da08d85b381f3f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637359644507659584=iUrkV7UBSksRzFrZ7j86cNHphCdUWiMlqEv%2BBC6ZRMg%3D=0> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cf5a6887467a043f7a2da08d85b381f3f%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C6373596445076
[PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368
Has anyone experienced having an ITE product that complies with IEC60950 requirements, but does not comply with some portions IEC 62368? In particular the use of a non-LPS psu. Is there some sort of risk analysis that can be done to prove up conformance to the directive based on 60950 with or without supplemental test?? Thanks in advance Chuck - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
