[PSES] RF tent for sale (used)?
We are looking for a 4' cube (or 1.3m cube) RF tent. Anyone have one or know of a source? Thanks! Also -- thanks a ton for all the responses with regards to chambers. We got industry contacts and recommendations that were very useful. Curt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] RFI on chamber vendors
A customer I work with is asking about EMC chambers for investigation/debug of unintentional radiation (not for official testing). Sounds like something in the 3M range, up to 6 GHz. Who do I talk to? Want a potential range of costs. It would go into an existing building. Equipment is a separate item, however interested in recommendations on that as well. Thanks! Curt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] USB charging
http://blog.circuitprotection.com/blognews/the-new-usb-charging-specification-increased-user-experience-in-the-world-of-power-hungry-devices/ Curt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] ESD test setup
We occasionally do pre-tests with a setup where the tester is on a normal floor (though in some cases this is ESD flooring). There has been a debate as to whether this can effect results. If the tester had picked up a charge, it would be present on the outside of his body and the outside of the ESD gun. However, the ESD gun would be connected to ground, so its' tip would produce the correct voltage with respect to the EUT. Any comments about this? Curt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] RoHS II
The Commission has released an updated FAQ for RoHS2 Ref http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/rohs_eee/events_rohs3_en.htm Regards, Lauren Crane KLA-Tencor This is one of the documents I studied. It contains this phrase: "From 2nd January 2013 EEE in scope that bears a CE marking is presumed to be in conformity with the requirements of RoHS 2 and therefore is presumed not to contain more than the tolerated maximum concentration values as mentioned in Annexes II, III and IV of RoHS 2. " So what about an existing (non-exempt) product, with a DoC created at the time it was placed on the market? From the language in the official notice I am inclined to think that it is fine to keep shipping as is. From the above, it seems that I need to have RoHS2 documentation in place as of last Friday. Which is correct? Curt On Jan 6, 2013, at 11:45 PM, Curt McNamara wrote: > First off, a belated thank you to the folks that helped with a confusing > requirement on buzzer loudness. > > Now I have a new confusing thing :-) Despite reading numerous papers, > presentations, and the official notice, I am still confused about how it > affects designs. > > Here is what I get: > -- all new designs (introduced to the market now) need RoHS II compliance for > CE marking > the substance list for RoHS II is the same as RoHS I (for now) > the documentation for the design elements with regards to RoHS II > substances needs to be more complete > this documentation is part of a technical file > there needs to be a risk assessment in regards to whether the > manufacturers that you get components from are compliant > > -- existing designs which were subject to RoHS I can continue to ship without > the additional RoHS II documentation requirements, and can still be CE marked > > -- existing designs which were exempt from RoHS I have a period of time that > they can continue to ship before becoming compliant. > > What are the glaring holes in my summary? > > Curt > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] RoHS II
First off, a belated thank you to the folks that helped with a confusing requirement on buzzer loudness. Now I have a new confusing thing :-) Despite reading numerous papers, presentations, and the official notice, I am still confused about how it affects designs. Here is what I get: -- all new designs (introduced to the market now) need RoHS II compliance for CE marking the substance list for RoHS II is the same as RoHS I (for now) the documentation for the design elements with regards to RoHS II substances needs to be more complete this documentation is part of a technical file there needs to be a risk assessment in regards to whether the manufacturers that you get components from are compliant -- existing designs which were subject to RoHS I can continue to ship without the additional RoHS II documentation requirements, and can still be CE marked -- existing designs which were exempt from RoHS I have a period of time that they can continue to ship before becoming compliant. What are the glaring holes in my summary? Curt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Buzzer loudness standard?
We have a customer product where they desire to reference an industry standard for the loudness of a buzzer. They started with OSHA 3dB over ambient: the instrument shall have an audible indicator detected 3dB above the maximum OSHA 8 hour day background limit @ 3 meters. However that doesn't really tell us how loud it needs to be. It is used in a clinic where animals are treated. Any suggestions? Thanks! Curt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: resend environmental quotation.
Agreed. Essentially we are being sent spam. We subscribed to a list on product safety. Curt On May 6, 2008, at 9:00 AM, rehel...@mmm.com wrote: > While interesting, do we really need the philosophical/political > emails on > this site? > > Bob Heller > 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 > St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 > Tel: 651- 778-6336 > Fax: 651-778-6252 > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > > To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org > > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > > Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net > Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org > > For policy questions, send mail to: > > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > >http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: FCC Immunity Requirements
> Immunity is critical for anyone involved in safety or systems that can impact the health of individuals. Three examples I know about: Walkie-talkie interference causing control panel malfunction Walkie-talkie interference causing death of an employee. Cell phone usage causing malfunction of pacemaker. There is no cost to well designed equipment. Rather there is a cost to poorly designed equipment. If your start-up doesn't have the expertise, there are a variety of competent firms to review it for you. The cost is a few thousand dollars, quite low in total development costs, and typically saves some tens of thousands of dollars and weeks to months of project time. Curt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Safety regulations
On May 1, 2008, at 8:37 AM, Benoit Nadeau wrote: So the question is: If a PCB manufacturer buys a card cage that includes a fully listed power supply (approved by UL or CSA or ETL or any NRTL), and stuff this cage with his own PCBs (not listed) with no harmful external voltages or access to, and resell this as a whole new product. Can he put that on the market without having to re-list the new product as long as the markings on the power supply are still visible from outside the box? I think there are two or three answers. 1)The label on the power supply pertains to the supply and the card cage. It says nothing about the cards placed within it. If the system (cards, card cage, and power supply) needs a safety approval then the cards must have their own approval. 2)There is no uniform requirement for safety approvals in the USA. Certain municipalities require safety approvals, and many customers require them. However (with the exception of telecom equipment) there is no federal requirement (although OSHA has requirements as noted in another message). Most manufacturers conduct safety approvals to enable their products to be sold everywhere and to anyone. The manufacturer needs to determine the safety standard appropriate for the product based on the market. Most manufacturers consider it a good investment to have a third party do the approval. This validates the design and is helpful in the case of litigation. ; 3)Every product has a manual and product documentation which states approvals. If you have your own designs inside the card cage then in my opinion they need approval before you can claim anything about safety. If you claim nothing about safety then I would take pains to ensure customers do not see the power supply approval label as saying anything about the cards. Curt - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Safety regulations
Wow! The chart shows 2A at 45V for Class II, or 100VA as you note. This is a
lot of energy to me, and can certainly result in ignition given the correct
conditions. I note that the standard also shows voltages above SELV as
permissible.
The implication in the original question was information technology (as far as
I could tell). Even with approved supplies and only SELV levels safety
investigations are still required.
Some examples:
Flammable material (the laptop plastic case).
Fault (5V to ground) causes part to fall off board through vent hole, igniting
material on table.
There are lots of ways to design unsafe products using only SELV (not even
considering Class II). If your product needs a safety approval then an
investigation is required.
To phrase this another way: someone else's label (the power supply
manufacturer) is not a valid indicator that a product has a safety approval.
Curt
in real life
Curt McNamara, P.E. // principal electrical engineer
Logic Product Development
411 Washington Ave. N. Suite 400
Minneapolis, MN 55401
T // 612.436.5178
F // 612.672.9489
_www.logicpd.com_ http://www.logicpd.com/>
On May 2, 2008, at 7:24 AM, ted.eck...@apcc.com wrote:
The output of a Class 2/LPS circuit does not have the voltage or energy
to
be a shock or ignition risk as long as that voltage is used without any
changes. &nbs p;I could design a circuit with an inverter and step-up
transformer
that would give me a hazardous voltage. The Class 2 limit is 100 W. In
theory, I could get 1000 VAC RMS at 100 mA. Even with losses due
efficiency limits, there would be enough current to kill somebody.
I will say that in general, if you are using a power supply that meets
the
60950 LPS or the NEC Class 2 limits (they are basically the same) then
you
can hang circuits off the output without problems. However, it still
needs
to be investigated in a case by case basis.
Ted Eckert
APC-MGE
http://www.apc.com/
The items contained in this e-mail reflect the personal opinions of the
writer and are only provided for the assistance of the reader. The
writer
is not speaking in an official capacity for APC-MGE or Schneider
Electric.
The speaker does not represent APC-MGE's or Schneider Electric's
official
p osition on any matter.
scott barrows
& nbsp;
To
Sent by: Curt McNamara ,
emc-p...@ieee.org peter merguerian
&nb sp;
cc
05/02/2008 07:10 Benoit Nadeau
,
AMEMC-PSTC
&nb sp;
Subject
Re: Safety regulations
If the power supply is an NEC class 2 (vs a class II insulation system)
or
an LPS construction, then there is not enough current available to be a
fire hazard.
Scott
Curt McNamara wrote:
What if a short occu rred on one of these PCBs? Is there enough
flammable
material to constitute a fire hazard? Could a component get hot enough
to
melt connections and drop off, igniting material underneath the product?
As you can see, there may be other cases to consider. Given that an
event
could initiate legal action, it may be wise to have a third party verify
safety.
Curt
On May 1, 2008, at 10:37 PM, peter merguerian wrote:
If the power supply is Listed/Certified Class 2 (power limited
outputs) and there are no hazardous energy levels, I see no
problems.
Peter Merguerian
Benoit Nadeau wrote:
Bonjour,
I’m much more fluent in EMC t han safety and this is why I
respectfully seek advice in this matter.
I have a question coming from the designers and I’ve been looking
in
the US regulations (the NEC mainly) to find the answer but I
didn’t.
I think this is more like an interpretation than anything else.
So the question is:
If a PCB manufacturer buys a card cage that includes a fully
listed
power suppl
