RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

I just checked with my attorneys (the very prestigious firm of Dewey,
Cheetum & Howe)...  And they figured that he may have instead been listening
to too much Beatles music pretending his fist was a silver hammer and he was
named Maxwell (WHAT?  You didn't name your son after a name well known to
electromagic engineers!?!)
 
Personally,  I think that level of violence is better (and that of Wile E.
Coyote and his equipment from the ACME  (obviously, most of it was not
safety approved)) than what kids can see today.  Take a look at what there
is for video games and the movies and music and... well, I better stop
before I fall over backward foaming at the mouth (a line from another comedy
group, one that brought us blood spurting out in slow motion)!
 

Daren A. Nerad 
EMC Engineer 
815.226.6123 

-Original Message-
From: Stephen Phillips [mailto:step...@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:15 PM
To: Tania Grant
Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough


  I hope you didn't let him watch the news either... 
he could become a murderer, drunk driver, rapist, 
embezzler, adulterer, car thief, or politician... or one 
of those guys who goes surfing in a hurricane.  Or - 
learn by what he saw, not by what he didn't see.  

  With all due respect, 
  Moe Howard  

  Obviously, personal opinions - not those of my 
  employer (as far as I know anyway).  


At 12:56 PM 12/14/2001, Tania Grant wrote:


Gert,
 
You may be technically correct, but I also believe that we should bring up
citizens to be prudently knowledgeable about electrical hazards.   These are
not intuitively obvious.   The manufacturer has a responsibility for
designing a safe product.   The user has a responsibility for using it
prudently.   The manufacturer also has a responsibility for warning against
possible (conceivable) misuse.  It is here that the gray area waffles.
 
Would you countenance your daughter, clad in a bikini and barefoot,
repeating the same actions as in the picture, while you complacently view
this scene from the comforts of a beach chair, beer in hand?
 
By the way; I found the picture very humorous.   However, slapstick humor
and hazards, especially electrical, do not mix.  I would not want to defend
this pictorial from any safety perspective.   This is a prime candidate for
"What's wrong with this picture?"  to be analyzed by safety professionals
only.
 
PS:  Ages ago the neighbors complained that my pre-kindergarten angel son
was hitting other kids on their heads with his fist.   Those who were
brought up on the Three Stooges thought these antics were humorous;--  since
I was not brought up like that, I thought they were just gross.   I put a
stop immediately to my son watching Three Stooges re-runs on the TV, a
harmless show from many perspectives.   He is now a very civilized adult and
does not hit people over the head with his fists.
 
taniagr...@msn.com  
  

- Original Message - 

From: CE-TEST 

Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:57 PM 

To: Robert Johnson; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 

Subject: RE: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough 

  

{ Please read this email with more then average sense of humour , and then :
THINK !) 

  

So, What's Wrong With That, 

  

The guy on the picture (see link below) is protected by 2 layers of safety: 

  

1/ Basic Insulation, rated for the mains voltage PLUS transient levels 

2/ Grounding , for in case the basic insulation wears out or fails for
whatever reason (drops in the pool ?) 



  

Many of us on this list are in some way responsible for the safety of their 

employers products, or even test houses (like me) ! 

Do we have that much confidence in our work ? 

Are we somewhere concerned the safety regulations are not strict enough ? 

Do we, when working with electricity , count for extra layers of safety,
such as not 

standing bare foot on an aluminium ladder, in a swimming pool ? 

Are we concerned that the safety measures won't suffice for the lifetime of
the equipment ? 

  

This man is doing what we expect our customers to do: have confidence that
products 

sold comply with essential safety regulations. 





  

Regards, 



  

Gert Gremmen 

ce-test, qualified testing 

  

-Original Message- 

From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [
mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]
  On
  Behalf Of Robert Johnson 

Sent: woensdag 12 december 2001 19:28 

To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 

Subject: Sometimes product safety just isn't enough



I couldnâEUR(tm)t help passing on this reference to a bit of unforeseeable
misuse. 

  

http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/48.html
  

  

Bob Johnson 

  

RE: My departure

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

I do more listening than talking here...
AND
I agree with those who do NOT want you to leave!!

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Consultant / Engineer
at Hamilton Sundstrand



-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 3:07 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: My departure



As a result of representations from one of the administrators, which I
consider totally unjustified, I am leaving the group.

 I regret having to break contact with those that responded favourably
to my input.

You are free to e-mail me if you wish.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

Eat mink and be dreary!

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RE: Conducted emisions - frequencies lower than 150kHz

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

Why not eat mink?
What do they do with the meat from the minks raised for their fur?
Although, I speak without first hand knowledge, I've heard the only part of
the pig they don't use is the squeal!  (in particular on farms)

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
Consultant at
Hamilton Sundstrand
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 2:34 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Conducted emisions - frequencies lower than 150kHz



I read in !emc-pstc that bogdan matoga  wrote (in
<3bf31b67.a7262...@pacbell.net>) about 'Conducted emisions - frequencies
lower than 150kHz', on Wed, 14 Nov 2001:
>John: Why would you want to eat mink?

The tag is a false Spoonerism (rearrangement of initial letters for
humorous (?) effect) of 'Eat, drink and be merry!'

Time for a new tag, I think. Watch the space below.(;-)
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

Eat mink and be dreary!

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RE: Aircrafts

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

Amund,
In the US: you had most of it: RTCA/DO-160D

For more info:  http://www.rtca.org./

There may be other (additional) airframe specific requirements...which is
not at all unusual!

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 7:07 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Aircrafts



Hi all,

Electrical equipment placed inside an aircraft (navigation equipment
installed in the cockpit), are they required to fulfil the CE-regulations
for use within EU? If yes, which directives apply ? EMC ? LVD ?

What about in the US/Canada ? I have a feeling that RO-160D applies. Am I
right ?

Best regards
Amund Westin



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RE: Sound Engineering Practice

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

John,
"mind-enhancing substances":  Is the caffeine in coffee (or tea or
carbonated beverages) a mind-enhancing substance?  IF SO where would many
engineers be without it?!

Program managers would be very upset if engineers were no longer able to
operate under the influence of caffeine!  Many light night / early am
trouble shooting sessions at the OATS have been fueled by caffeine.  In
addition to design efforts...

Have a good Friday chuckle!

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:47 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Sound Engineering Practice



I read in !emc-pstc that lcr...@tuvam.com wrote (in <3187EE460C488A458D4
dc186f40edc21049...@exchdan.us.tuvworld.com>) about 'Sound Engineering
Practice', on Thu, 6 Sep 2001:
>I am struggling with one of those darned European directives, the pressure
>equipment directive. One aspect of conformance is dependent on the
>application of "Sound Engineering Practice".
>
>Does anyone have a practical or authoritative definition of "Sound
>Engineering Practice?". 
>
>It's and idea that easy often thrown about, but it seem very hard to
define.

Sure, it's a catch-all in cases where the engineering is more an art
than a science (i.e. more than seven independent variables!). It's 'what
you see in well-designed products'. For example, where you can't design
something by using recognized mathematical methods, you base your design
on previously successful ones, not on dimensions, etc. revealed to you
under the influence of mind-enhancing substances.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk

Eat mink and be dreary!

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RE: Conductive Coatings

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

John,
I refuse to say "in another life" because I have only one life to go through
and learn through, taking credit for my successes and accepting
responsibility for my learning opportunities. (to me it's a Dilbert "pointy
haired manager" phrase(of course so is "learning opportunity" instead of
mistake)
(sorry for the soapbox)

 BUT I have had the opportunity to investigate both conductive materials
(composites) and conductive coatings.  We decided to use conductive coatings
on a computer system for a medical imaging system.  The product was mature
and only limited units were expected to be sold.  We did replace some of the
panels with metal ones (at a cost savings even over the unplated plastic!
management liked that).  A sprayed on copper paint was applied to the
plastic parts.  It worked very well!  At the joints, soft gaskets
(conductive fabric covered foam) were used (e.g. Schlegel (spelling?)).
This reduced wear (assembly / disassembly) concerns.  The unit went from
being a "comb generator" to compliant.  Adequate application of the coating
was achieved.  Vacuum deposition was considered but was too expensive and
may have had problems with the cavities in the existing plastic parts.
For the fairly small quantity of parts, this worked quite well.  IF we were
starting a project and could design the  plastic parts with a particular
process in mind, other processes (e.g. plating) might be a better choice. 
Refer to other comments on safety aspects.  I have seen problems with
coatings flaking off.  Also note my experience occurred ~ 5 years ago.
Seems recent to me but there may have been many improvements in the field
since then.
Good luck!
  
Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: John Juhasz [mailto:jjuh...@fiberoptions.com]
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 1:30 PM
To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org'
Subject: Conductive Coatings




Greetings . . . 

Beginning to consider conductive coatings for EMC shielding.
To be used inside a plastic cover (material as yet unknown) in
a low power/voltage (SELV) application. 
This is unfamiliar territory.

I'm sure someone on this listserv has experience with these.
I know to at least consider shielding effectiveness, material
compatibility (plastic housing material to coating), and
end-user environment. What are some other critical criteria?

Thanks.

John A. Juhasz
Product Qualification &
Compliance Engineer

Fiber Options, Inc.
80 Orville Dr.
Suite 102
Bohemia, NY 11716  USA

Tel: 631-419-2324 (direct)
Fax: 631-567-8322
 



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RE: How Safe ???

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

 Warning: Life may cause injury or death.

Not MAY; Death is one of the very few things guaranteed about life!!
(Remember Marvin Gaye singing about "taxes, death and trouble" ? )

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: oover...@lexmark.com [mailto:oover...@lexmark.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 7:26 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: How Safe ???





In light of the recent e-traffic on labels, warnings, and litigation I think
that this is a good article.

A better rant than I could write (and have written).  When you need a break
...
___

By Mark Morford
morning...@sfgate.com
All contents, except the swearing and the random blasphemy, (tm) (c)
2001 Hearst Communications Inc.

MARK'S NOTES & ERRATA
Where opinion meets benign syntax abuse...
***
Twenty-one-year-old college student bangs and rocks and tilts
900-pound Coke machine to dislodge a can of soda. Coke machine
finally tips over on top of college student. College student dies.

College student's parents sue Coca-Cola, vending-machine
manufacturer, and school, claiming there should've been some sort of
warning. The gods of Fate and Destiny shake their heads and sigh.
This is a true story.

Coke begins placing cautionary stickers on vending machines:
"Warning: Tipping may cause injury or death." This part is also true.
Many employees at the vending machine company undoubtedly got a good
laugh out of this, wondered what's next, stickers on fine cutlery
saying "Warning: Inserting butcher knife into body may cause injury
or death"?

Or perhaps on large bridges: "Warning: Leaping off may cause death or
at least a bad headache." Buses? "Warning: Do not step in front of
this vehicle or you might die in a manner everyone jokes about and
then how would you feel?" The list goes on, and it too may cause
injury or death.

Oh how the jokes were flying, yes indeed, much like they probably
were at snide ol' McDonald's HQ a few years back when that old woman
spilled hot coffee on herself and sued because the coffee was too hot
and it burned her and everyone knows coffee is supposed to be
lukewarm and pleasing and mild. She won her case. The jokes stopped.
And the cynicism began.

And let us pause for a moment to pay our respects to what must be a
horrendous level of sadness and loss for the family in question, what
can only be a miserable and terrible event in the life of a parent.
There is genuine sorrow and rage here and the need to assign blame
and of course it can't be laid at the feet of the college student in
question because he was clearly the innocent victim of a malicious
vending machine attack and we as humans can *not* be held responsible
for our frequent lapses of judgement or common sense, can we? Can we?

Because after all this kid was just being a typical mindless male and
was likely just following the behavior of other students who he'd
seen bash the machine to score a free Mountain Dew and besides
someone at the school probably knew the machine was kinda tippy and
folks at the vending machine company probably knew those old models
weren't as completely secure as the newer versions.

But hey, it's not like the machines were malevolent capsizing demons
just lying in wait for the next hapless student to come along and
breathe on them wrong and then, whump.

It is not as if this laptop computer right here in front of me is
right this minute poised to to electrocute me if I decide to slam the
lid repeatedly to get it to unfreeze. See that big bookshelf in the
library? Pull on it too hard, it'll probably fall over on you. Should
you sue the shelf manufacturer? The book authors? Gravity? What if
our college boy had climbed atop the Coke machine and jumped off and
broken his neck? Is the manufacturer responsible? The shoe company?
The concrete floor? Where do you draw the line?

This is the ultimate question. It's an ever-shifting line in the sand
of human stupidity, a vague cultural boundary defining how much we
expect our products and corporations to protect us from ourselves and
how much we're willing to be answerable for our actions, a line
dividing how logic-impaired we're willing to admit we sometimes are
and how responsible a given corporation should be for dumping shoddy
and/or dangerous products on the market without warning.

In a perfect world (like, you know, Atlantis), it's a fair
distribution of both, an equal balance of good faith: people take
full responsibility for their lives and actions and don't blame the
government or the media or God or big mean corporations when they
themselves are caught in incredibly dumb behavior; and concomitantly,
thuggish corporations and the government take full responsibility for
their products and services and don't try to duck and shirk and scam
and dance around the law and pretend they had no idea nicotine was
lethal or their SUV tires exploded.

Instead 

typing shortcut and answer to your question (hypothetical)

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

John,
we could call it a:

VAMPOQPCPEI

Pronounced: vamp oh kwupe seepy


Sorry, but you just had to ask!

No, I haven't done a conformity check, with respect to the proposed
directive, yet!!

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 6:35 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: En60065 7th edition



, Colgan, Chris  inimitably wrote:
>There is discussion within our company about removing power switches from
>our newer products.  The current standard allows us to do this as they can
>be switched on and off via a rear panel comms bus connection (ie data
link).
>
>My specific questions are:
>
>a)  will the 7th draft allow us to do this?

Yes. If it stays like the latest draft.
>
>b)  will the 7th draft remove the anomaly that requires a product to have a
>mechanical switch unless it has a data link or timer function?  I have
>always thought this to be crazy, either all products should have switches
or
>none at all.

Yes. If it stays like the latest draft.

>For example,
>Amplifier with power relay operated by front panel tact switch via
>microprocessor - not allowed
>Amplifier with power relay operated by data link (used or not) via
>microprocessor - allowed

IEC TC92 has now introduced a formal system for registering 'IEC
interpretations' of IEC60065, which are sent to all National Committees,
IECEE/CTL and, through CENELEC TC92/X, to the corresponding CENELEC
test-house committee OSM. These interpretations are supposed to be
published by the national committees, and BSI will probably issue them
as 'PDs', and not free of charge. 

In this case, a somewhat relevant interpretation has already been
produced:

QUOTE
Subclause 14.6.2: Application of switches

Question:
Can we consider the below-described function as "capable of being
switched-off automatically and without human intervention at the time of
switching"?

Description:
The product's power consumption is more than 15W and no manually
operated mechanical switch is applied.
The player consists of a CDR loader, CD changer and a hard-disc drive.
On this hard disc drive music can be stored in the MP-3 format. 
Function: After down-loading a CD disc on the hard disc, the user may
switch the player into the off/stand-by mode but the player will (or has
to) complete first several MP-3 conversion activities on the hard-disc
which take several minutes (might be up to 1/2 h). When the MP-3
conversion on the hard disc has been completed the player will
automatically switch-off to the low power consumption/stand-by mode.

Because of this we cannot have a manually operated mechanical switch
which is switching off the power, so we would like to make use of the
exceptions as given in clause 14.6.2 of the IEC60065, 6th edition.

Interpretation of the WG:
No switch is required in this case.

Rationale:
In this case the switching-off is controlled by a data link. Data links
can exist between apparatus as well as within one apparatus.  

Actions: 
No action towards the text in the IEC 60065 is needed. [Before an
amendment could be issued, the next edition will be published.]
UNQUOTE
>
>c)  does the 7th edition define what "off" is?  Eg apparatus does not
>function, apparatus consumes less than 15W, mains power is disconnected
etc.

Note explicitly, but 5.4.2 prohibits the use of the 'OFF' symbol
60417-2-IEC-5008 (and 5010) unless an all-pole mains switch is fitted.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. Phone +44 (0)1268 747839
Fax +44 (0)1268 777124. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why not call a
vertically-
applied manulo-pedally-operated quasi-planar chernozem-penetrating and 
excavating implement a SPADE?

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RE: Typing Shortcuts

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

Somewhere, out there...
is a FAQ list on this
( FAQ = Frequently asked questions (and answers) list)

One with  more time, motivation and web search familiarity can probably find
this list.

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: rehel...@mmm.com [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 11:19 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Typing Shortcuts



Over time I have come across many typing shortcuts using the English
language, such as:

OTOH - on the other hand
WRT  - with regard to
BTW  - (I am still trying to figure out this one)

Can someone please list the more common ones? I sometimes strain my brain
trying to figure them out and they are in my own language. It must be
terribly confusing to most of our world-wide colleagues.

Thanks,
Bob Heller
3M Product Safety, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252


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RE: Public Health and Safety Signs - Tomfoolery so delete if you don't have the time.

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

Gary,
We learned about this one almost 13 years ago with the first baby...
My wife inadvertently went through about a pot of coffee while on the phone
(long distance) with a rarely seen friend.  In a way, the results of that
were much worse than passing on a glass of wine or two!!  Since neither one
was used to that much coffee, in that short a period, it was unpleasant, but
educational.  From an engineering perspective: it was a very conclusive
test!

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@worldwidepackets.com]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 4:40 PM
To: 'Michael Mertinooke'; wo...@sensormatic.com;
emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Public Health and Safety Signs - Tomfoolery so delete if
you don't have the time.



Here in the US, awhile back,  a woman was suing the liquor industry
because she gave birth to a fetal alcohol syndrome child. Apparently, nobody
in their right mind would assume that consuming a fifth of whiskey a day
could be harmful to a developing fetus making the liquor industry patiently
and damnably negligent in not putting warning labels on the bottles. (We got
them now thank God!)
During the coverage of the trial, and I don't remember the context,
but the issue of passing nastiness to infants who were being breast fed was
also brought up. While I didn't hear the end of this I often have wondered
that if that was true, and this woman's case had merit (her lawyer took it
up didn't he?) then the logical extension would be that mothers milk should
come with a warning. 

Soo Just what the heck will this label look like, and even
more importantly, just where are they going to put it so that people, can
easily read it!

Gary

-Original Message-
From: Michael Mertinooke [mailto:mertino...@skyskan.com]
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 12:37 PM
To: wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Public Health and Safety Signs




>signs at work. Is there a similar Directive for health and safety signs for
>the general public?

Whoo! The mind boggles! You mean with like people with "exclamation
point in triangle" tattoos on various portions of the anatomy? Or
biohazard labels on the door of the kids' rooms? Judging
from some of the ANSI Z535 safety labels I see in the catalogs, the
Human Warning Labels would be interesting indeed.   =]

Cheers!
Mike


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RE: Better understanding of Technical vs Practical

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

Welcome Bill!
If you want to jump right into something interesting...(kick in your two
cents worth of opinion)
Find the thread on "AC Power Primer".
HA!

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: Electrical-Safety - Bill Addiss
[mailto:b...@electrical-safety.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:06 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Better understanding of Technical vs Practical



My name is Bill Addiss,
I'm a Licensed Master Electrician and Webmaster of
www.Electrical-Safety.com and www.Electrical-Contractor.net
I am subscribed here to stay informed of any Electrical Safety issues
that might arise.

I would like to invite any interested parties to partake in discussion 
forums there.
We've got a nice mix of those interested in the Electrical/Electronics 
Fields and Trades.
One of our goals is more understanding of some technical issues and
questions
that arise in the Electrical Trade. If anyone here has the time and/or the 
desire to interact
with us I think it could prove beneficial to all. (And we do allow some fun 
along the way)
Or, perhaps you have a question for us?

It is divided up into topics such as :

General
NEC
Recent News
Electrical Safety
Photo Violations area
Electrical Theory and Applications

Feel free to jump into something or start your own thread
http://www.Electrical-Contractor.net/Forum

Bill
Bill Addiss
Electrical Safety Forum
http://www.Electrical-Safety.com


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RE: AC Power Primer?

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

All right...

I had heard this from a former nuclear power plant worker (NOT Homer
Simpson, opposite end of intelligence spectrum).

Passed it on as a bit of cynical (realist?) humor...  
(the caffeine in the Mountain Dew made me get an early jump on "Friday
Funnies")

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: mkel...@es.com [mailto:mkel...@es.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 4:57 PM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: AC Power Primer?



Look at the bright side.  With a higher voltage, your wife can buy more
kitchen appliances and put more of them on the same circuit :)

-Original Message-----
From: Nerad, Daren HS-SNS [mailto:daren.ne...@hs.utc.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 2:32 PM
To: 'Price, Ed'; 'mkel...@es.com'; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: AC Power Primer?



It all boils down to $$$s!
Notice you don't see 110 V on the lines, probably not even 115 or 117 but as
close to 120V as they can keep it (except for you folks in CA, then this is
a digital thing, HA!).

WHY?

You consume more Watts if the V is greater!

Check your wall outlet, what does it read?

IT would be interesting to use this forum to do a quick & dirty survey.
Granted we can only hit where engineers feel like making measurements, &
when they do, but it would be interesting...

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer



-Original Message-
From: Price, Ed [mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:05 PM
To: 'mkel...@es.com'; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: AC Power Primer?



>-Original Message-
>From: mkel...@es.com [mailto:mkel...@es.com]
>Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 8:22 AM
>To: brian.harl...@vgscientific.com; emc-p...@ieee.org
>Subject: RE: AC Power Primer?
>
>
>
>Just out of curiosity, where does the designation "220V come 
>from?  If you
>measure the potential difference between two phases of a 
>three-phase system,
>you get 208V.  If you measure the difference between the two 
>phases in a
>residential or light commercial area, you would probably get 240V.  
>
>So, where does the term "220V" come from?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Max Kelson
>Evans & Sutherland
>

[SNIP]

Max:


There's many more expert than I on this subject, but

The USA has several "standard" powers available to non-heavy industrial
consumers.

A typical home is supplied with a three-wire drop (although the trend is not
to drop, but to bury the feeders) that consists of two hot wires and a
return. The return line is grounded. The voltage from hot to hot is 240
Vrms, and is a single phase. The transformer that supplies the several homes
on the last power branch has a center-tapped secondary, so the voltage from
either hot to the center-tap is 120 Vrms.

I have heard the hot-to-center-tap voltage called 110 V, 115 V, 117 V and
120 V. That would mean the hot-to-hot voltage would be either 220 V, 230 V
234 V or 240 V. FWIW, the voltage at my home (between blackouts, I live in
Southern California) consistently runs about 119 Vrms.

High-power appliances (air conditioning, range, heating) are usually
designed to draw from the hot-to-hot 240 Vrms (this minimizes losses).
Lesser loads are connected from one hot to the neutral, hopefully with some
thought toward balancing the total load.

Light industrial users are often fed by a five-wire three-phase wye system
(three phases, neutral and safety ground). The nominal 208 Vrms value exists
from any phase-to-phase pair. The voltage from any phase to neutral is 115
Vrms. Heavy loads (large motors) are usually 3-phase models, and other heavy
loads (like industrial ovens) also draw phase-to-phase power. The
phase-to-neutral voltage is close enough to residential values that ordinary
lights, appliances and computers can be fed from this circuit. Again, you
should try to balance the phase-to-neutral loads. 

Regards,

Ed



Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis

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--

RE: AC Power Primer?

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

It all boils down to $$$s!
Notice you don't see 110 V on the lines, probably not even 115 or 117 but as
close to 120V as they can keep it (except for you folks in CA, then this is
a digital thing, HA!).

WHY?

You consume more Watts if the V is greater!

Check your wall outlet, what does it read?

IT would be interesting to use this forum to do a quick & dirty survey.
Granted we can only hit where engineers feel like making measurements, &
when they do, but it would be interesting...

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer



-Original Message-
From: Price, Ed [mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 1:05 PM
To: 'mkel...@es.com'; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: AC Power Primer?



>-Original Message-
>From: mkel...@es.com [mailto:mkel...@es.com]
>Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 8:22 AM
>To: brian.harl...@vgscientific.com; emc-p...@ieee.org
>Subject: RE: AC Power Primer?
>
>
>
>Just out of curiosity, where does the designation "220V come 
>from?  If you
>measure the potential difference between two phases of a 
>three-phase system,
>you get 208V.  If you measure the difference between the two 
>phases in a
>residential or light commercial area, you would probably get 240V.  
>
>So, where does the term "220V" come from?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Max Kelson
>Evans & Sutherland
>

[SNIP]

Max:


There's many more expert than I on this subject, but

The USA has several "standard" powers available to non-heavy industrial
consumers.

A typical home is supplied with a three-wire drop (although the trend is not
to drop, but to bury the feeders) that consists of two hot wires and a
return. The return line is grounded. The voltage from hot to hot is 240
Vrms, and is a single phase. The transformer that supplies the several homes
on the last power branch has a center-tapped secondary, so the voltage from
either hot to the center-tap is 120 Vrms.

I have heard the hot-to-center-tap voltage called 110 V, 115 V, 117 V and
120 V. That would mean the hot-to-hot voltage would be either 220 V, 230 V
234 V or 240 V. FWIW, the voltage at my home (between blackouts, I live in
Southern California) consistently runs about 119 Vrms.

High-power appliances (air conditioning, range, heating) are usually
designed to draw from the hot-to-hot 240 Vrms (this minimizes losses).
Lesser loads are connected from one hot to the neutral, hopefully with some
thought toward balancing the total load.

Light industrial users are often fed by a five-wire three-phase wye system
(three phases, neutral and safety ground). The nominal 208 Vrms value exists
from any phase-to-phase pair. The voltage from any phase to neutral is 115
Vrms. Heavy loads (large motors) are usually 3-phase models, and other heavy
loads (like industrial ovens) also draw phase-to-phase power. The
phase-to-neutral voltage is close enough to residential values that ordinary
lights, appliances and computers can be fed from this circuit. Again, you
should try to balance the phase-to-neutral loads. 

Regards,

Ed



Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis

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RE: EMC and CE mark for aircraft equipment

[Nerad, Daren HS-SNS]

In the USA, most commercial aircraft systems are required to meet
RTCA/DO-160D.  "Environmental Conditions and Test Procedures for Airborne
Equipment"  (RTCA = Radio Technical Commission for Aeronautics).  Both
emissions and susceptibility are covered in this document.  

RTCA's web site:

http://www.rtca.org./

Certainly, you could check with potential customers (airframers),
governmental agencies (USA = FAA) and others...

Good luck,

Daren A. Nerad
EMC Engineer
815.226.6123


-Original Message-
From: Nick Williams [mailto:nick.willi...@conformance.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:55 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: EMC and CE mark for aircraft equipment



I've been asked to look at the requirements for an intercom system 
intended for use in aircraft. The system is wired (i.e. no radio 
link) and is self contained although it can also interface to the 
flight radio so that the pilot can talk to air traffic control.

I am aware that there is an exclusion within the EMC directive for 
equipment specifically approved for aircraft in flight (since this is 
covered by other international agreements). However, so far as I can 
see if the apparatus has not been approved to this requirement it 
will need to be CE marked. Where I am uncertain is to know whether 
there are any other rules which cover equipment for use in 
non-commercial aircraft which are in additional to or at odds with 
the requirements for CE marking.

All pointers would be gratefully received. I am primarily interested 
in the European/CE marking angle, but guidance on the rules for 
elsewhere in the world would be both interesting and useful.

Regards

Nick.


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