Re: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368

[Wiseman, Joshua]

I would document the differences between the two and demonstrate why the 
requirements for both versions are met. Then if you are challenged the homework 
is already done.

Josh

From: Scott Xe 
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2021 10:03 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Hi Daniel,

Your logic makes sense but we may receive the challenge from MSA who will 
follow the harmonised standards published in OJEU at the time of their survey.  
In case the latest version is relaxed as compared with the current version.  
You may be in trouble!

Regards,

Scott


On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 at 20:08, Rodriguez, Daniel (ESP) 
<123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
 wrote:
Sorry to reopen this topic
The question is the version to apply for EU testing?
1-Last harmonized version is EN IEC 62368-1:2014+AC:2015
2-Last available version is EN IEC 62368-1:2020+A11:2020

Which one shall we test? The equivalent IEC are IEC 62368-1:2014 (ED. 2.0) and 
IEC 62368-1:2018 (ED. 3.0)?
My preference is to test the last available version to avoid future retesting 
next years

Thank you for your answers.


Kind Regards / Saludos cordiales / Mit freundlichen Grüßen



Daniel Rodríguez

Sr. Equipment Compliance Specialist EMEA




From: Ted Eckert 
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 9:56 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368

Caution: This email message originated from outside of the organization. DO NOT 
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Hi Chuck,



The biggest change that I have seen is for touch temperatures. IEC 60950-1 
allows continuous contact with plastic at 75 C. Even glass is allows a 
continuous temperature of 70 C. Imagine using one of those new glass-bodied 
cell phones with it at that temperature. IEC 62368-1 reduces the continuous 
contact temperature limit to 48 C for all materials.



There were probably many older laptop computers with plastic cases that could 
exceed 48 C on the bottom surface during use. Those laptops would not comply 
with IEC 62368-1.



This isn't the only item to consider, but it's the one I'm most familiar with. 
There are additional issues related to fire enclosures where a product could 
pass IEC 60950-1 but fail IEC 62368-1 2nd Edition. However, these issues have 
largely be resolved with IEC 62368-1 3rd edition. TC 108 recognized that there 
were many constructions allowed under IEC 60950-1 that were shown to be 
acceptable through years of use, yet disallowed by IEC 62368-1 2nd edition. 
Many issues were resolved with the update.



Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation



The opinions experessed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer or TC 108.







From: Chuck August-McDowell 
mailto:chu...@meyersound.com>>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2020 11:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 
62368



Hi Charles,



Only slightly off your topic "Has anyone experienced having an ITE product that 
complies with IEC60950 requirements, but does not comply with some portions IEC 
62368?"

I work on the audio side so our base standard is 60065. So to rephrase the 
question;

"Has anyone experienced having an audio product that complies with IEC 60065 
requirements, but does not comply with some portions IEC 62368? "

I was informed during factory audit the Hipot test voltage changed from 1500 
VAC to 1768 VAC ?



Oh, and outdoor use also changes from IEC 62368 2ed, calls for using 60950-22 
at current editions, which the 2005 edition did not require a dust test, but 
new (required) 2nd edition requires a dust test, where as 60065 required only 
IPX4 testing.



Let the testing begin!



Respectfully,



Chuck August-McDowell





From: Charles Jackson mailto:cjack...@nvidia.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2020 7:57 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Demonstrating Compliance to the LVD w/o using 62368



[EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Has anyone experienced having an ITE product that complies with IEC60950 
requirements, but does not comply with some portions IEC 62368?  In particular 
the use of a non-LPS psu.  Is there some sort of risk analysis that can be done 
to prove up conformance to the directive based on 60950 with or without 
supplemental test??



Thanks in advance

Chuck

-
---

Re: [PSES] Hot surface sign

[Wiseman, Joshua]

I was part of the TC61 MT that did this work for the Commercial Cooking Equip. 
There are a number of zones called out, Non-functional hot surface and Adjacent 
surface. I recall there being at least one more term but it escapes me at the 
moment.

Josh


From: Charlie Blackham 
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 3:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Hot surface sign

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Scott

I've not read it (44 pages) but EU LVD market enforcement did a report 
"Non-functional Hot Surfaces Project"

https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/5263/attachments/1/translations

Some standards, such as EN 60335-2-9 (Household and similar electrical 
appliances - Safety - Part 2-9: Particular requirements for grills, toasters 
and similar portable cooking appliances) have different limits if equipment is 
labelled

The ISO symbol IEC 60417 - 5041, Caution, hot surface 
(iso.org),
 is often referred to, but I'm not aware that colours or contrast is mandated

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 26 May 2021 18:08
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Hot surface sign

Usually, high-temperature surface warning symbols are only required if the 
hazard is not obvious.  So in ovens, stovetops, griddles, toasters, heat-sinks, 
etc. do not require them.

However, if such appliances or device have areas that are hot but it is not 
obvious it is hot, a warning symbol might be required.

At home, I have a 2-slice toaster. It is a "Cool Touch" toaster that has no hot 
exposed surfaces, except from the small surface between the two slots on the 
top.  So the manufacturer engraved the symbol on the metal surface.  Not a bad 
idea.  But back in the day, the sides of a toaster got really hot; hot enough 
to melt the Wonder Bread bag.  As a kid, I think every toaster I ever saw had a 
Wonder Bread bag melted on the side.

The Other Brian

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 10:04 AM Scott Xe 
mailto:scott...@gmail.com>> wrote:
In some cooking appliances, there are some hot surfaces that may cause burn 
injury and safety standards suggest putting a hot surface sign to alert the 
users.

  *   Is there any specific colour requirement?  Common practice is black 
colour on yellow background or white colour on black background.
  *   Is an embossed sign black on black considered as a legible sign in EU 
criteria perspective?
  *   In case of ink-printed label, is it put on the top of the hot surface or 
next to the hot surface?  If on the top of surface, the colours are protected 
from heat degradation and specialized adhesives should be used to withstand 
higher temperatures.  Is there any test criteria for verification?
Thanks and regards,

Scott
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Re: [PSES] Hot surface sign

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Scott,

At my previous employer we had the symbol stamped into the stainless steel of a 
part on the commercial griddle. A traditional label would not withstand the 
heat in this instance and with-it being part of the sheet metal it me all the 
cleaning and legibility requirements. It's hard to see but I took a snippet of 
one from a video of the griddle on YouTube.

[cid:image003.png@01D75217.ECB8ABD0]

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC/Systems


From: Scott Xe 
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 10:04 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Hot surface sign

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


In some cooking appliances, there are some hot surfaces that may cause burn 
injury and safety standards suggest putting a hot surface sign to alert the 
users.

  *   Is there any specific colour requirement?  Common practice is black 
colour on yellow background or white colour on black background.
  *   Is an embossed sign black on black considered as a legible sign in EU 
criteria perspective?
  *   In case of ink-printed label, is it put on the top of the hot surface or 
next to the hot surface?  If on the top of surface, the colours are protected 
from heat degradation and specialized adhesives should be used to withstand 
higher temperatures.  Is there any test criteria for verification?
Thanks and regards,

Scott
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Re: [PSES] Retesting needed for EN 61010-1:2010/A1:2019??

[Wiseman, Joshua]

When I reviewed it for our products the biggest impact for us is documentation, 
Clause 5.4.

With that said there are some changes that could impact products. For example, 
6.3.1 changed the voltages for what is deemed hazardous. I'm not sure if there 
is a list of changes anywhere, but the impact should really be based on the 
individual product.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC/Systems

From: Rodriguez, Daniel (ESP) <123de38bd494-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2021 7:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Retesting needed for EN 61010-1:2010/A1:2019??

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Good morning all

I have just reviewed the EN 61010-1:2010/A1:2019 and there a lot of changes. 
Most of them seems clarifications but I am not sure if we need to retest 
equipment checked for EN 61010-1:2010 to add A1:2029
Does anyone have a clear picture:
1.if retesting is required
2.if yes there is any cases that not (or which clauses requires testing)

Thank you for your answers!

Kind Regards / Saludos cordiales / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Daniel Rodríguez
Sr. Equipment Compliance Specialist EMEA
T +34 673556249
E drodrig...@ecolab.com
ecolab.com

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Re: [PSES] Ground Bond Tests

[Wiseman, Joshua]

An ohmmeter would be a ground continuity test just to determine if the ground 
terminal is connected. It doesn't ensure the efficacy of the bond though. 
Ground bond ensures there is a bond from the ground lead to the chassis.

Which test is performed during production is determined by the standard. Some 
standards require 100% ground bond.

I have seen a ground lead fastened to the chassis by tightening fastening it 
with a screw, but the screw was not tightened in place. An ohmmeter shows the 
ground lead is connected to the chassis, but the ground bond shows an impedance 
greater than 0.1 ohms. Properly tightening the screw corrected the issue. In 
this situation, it passed ground continuity but failed ground bond.

Josh


From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 3:06 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ground Bond Tests

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


John,

I think you are getting your tests mixed up.  The Ohm Meter is a Ground Bond 
Test but at a very low current. As I said in my earlier email, Annex F doesn't 
specify a current value for this test so technically an ohm meter will do the 
job and meet the requirement of the 61010-1.

The HiPot test puts a high voltage potential between Line (or neutral) to 
chassis ground to test the Dielectric Strength of your insulation. This test is 
typically performed at 1500Vac and/or 2100Vdc for electrical equipment 
operating up to the 230-volt range, but I have seen lower voltage levels used 
also.   This is a different test than the Ground Bond test and is also required 
for 100% of production.

I hope this was helpful.

The Other Brian

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 2:09 PM John Cochran 
mailto:jcoch...@strongarm.com>> wrote:
I'm interested in these answers, but UL and Intertek do not require us to do 
more than Ground Continuity testing on 100% of the products.  The UL/cUL 
certified product is an Industrial LCD Monitor (NWGQ, NWGQ7) evaluated to the 
ITE standard IEC 60950-1 & CAN/CSA C22.2 No. 60950-1-07, with a detachable 
power cord.  The Intertek certified product is a mobile cart with a permanently 
attached 3/c cord with plug.  It is evaluated to UL 61010-1 & CSA 
C22.2#61010-1-12.  Both have an input range of 100-240VAC @ 15A.  We use a 
Hi-Pot tester with a Ground Continuity, Open/Short and Dielectric tests.  
Neither NRTL requires more than a buzzer/ohm-meter test of all exposed metal 
surfaces, which the Hi-Pot tester does.  The responses to this email challenge 
these requirements, but if not required, it is hard to convince management that 
we need to invest in more test equipment.  I feel more assured of the grounding 
on a system when we use our 25A Ground Bond Tester, but we only have one for 
engineering purposes.  We have never been required to do Ground Bond testing, 
only Ground Continuity.

John Cochran
jcoch...@strongarm.com<mailto:jcoch...@strongarm.com>
215-443-3400 x219

From: MIKE SHERMAN mailto:msherma...@comcast.net>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 11:08 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ground Bond Tests

Rich Nute has 3 Technically Speaking columns on this that can be found at the 
In Compliance magazine website. The first is here
https://incompliancemag.com/article/derivation-of-ground-impedance/<https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fincompliancemag.com%2Farticle%2Fderivation-of-ground-impedance%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7C8dabd7a7595a44685dcf08d91578fd51%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637564431675575287%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=5QmHkOi0su4j%2FJ6wjN1kxmXuzYBcB0EF4ytzWgdSbWg%3D&reserved=0>
and I find it quite informative.
Mike Sherman
Graco Inc.

On 05/12/2021 8:01 AM Wiseman, Joshua 
mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>>
 wrote:


I agree with Brian. I've been involved with product safety over 20 yrs and 
worked for an NRTL for about 6 of those.

The 40 A requirement came from the Canadian electrical code and all the NRTLs.

The only exemptions I've seen to the 100 % ground bond requirement has been for 
Class II and Class III devices or devices using an external power supply (brick 
or wall-wart styles.)

Josh

From: Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 8:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ground Bond Tests

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


61010-1 § 4.1 says,  "Tests in this standard are TYPE TESTS to be carried out 
on samples of equipment or parts. Their only purpose is to check that the 
design and construction ensure conformity with this standard. In addition, 
manufacturers shall perform th

Re: [PSES] Ground Bond Tests

[Wiseman, Joshua]

I agree with Brian. I've been involved with product safety over 20 yrs and 
worked for an NRTL for about 6 of those.

The 40 A requirement came from the Canadian electrical code and all the NRTLs.

The only exemptions I've seen to the 100 % ground bond requirement has been for 
Class II and Class III devices or devices using an external power supply (brick 
or wall-wart styles.)

Josh

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 8:42 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Ground Bond Tests

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


61010-1 § 4.1 says,  "Tests in this standard are TYPE TESTS to be carried out 
on samples of equipment or parts. Their only purpose is to check that the 
design and construction ensure conformity with this standard. In addition, 
manufacturers shall perform the ROUTINE TESTS of Annex F on 100 % of equipment 
produced which has both HAZARDOUS LIVE parts and ACCESSIBLE conductive parts."

61010-1 Annex F, § F2 calls out the "Protective earth" test, also known as the 
Ground Bond Test, as a required test to be performed on 100% of production.  
Note the "NOTE" that says, "No value is specified for the test current.".   So 
some NRTL inspectors allow the ground bond test in production to be performed 
at any reasonable current value, but most will follow the requirements of 6.5.2.


I have been doing Product Safety for over 30 years and have worked with UL, 
CSA, TUV, NEMKO, EOLAS, etc., and all of them require 100% testing of 
production units to both the Highpot test and the Ground Bond test.

Regarding the 100mΩ verses 200mΩ question, all the NRTL inspectors I have 
worked with require the measured impedance of the Power Cord to be no more than 
100mΩ.  Note the UL/ANSI/CSA Deviation to 6.5.2.4 that instead of the 100mΩ 
requirement has a "shall not cause a potential drop of more than 4 V".  At a 
minimum 40 A ground bond test, a 100mΩ impedance would give you a 4V drop.  It 
doesn't say anything about an 8V drop for non-detachable power cords.  So NRTLs 
are going to stick with the 100mΩ across the board, I believe (this is opinion).

Hope this information is helpful.

The Other Brian


On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 11:27 PM Steve Brody 
mailto:sgbr...@comcast.net>> wrote:
So here is my question, or actually two of them:

First, one of my clients has been told by their 3rd party NRTL that a ground 
bond test is required as part of factory/production routine tests, even though 
it is not required by 61010-1.  I have never run into this requirement in my 
work history and I would be interested in hearing if any of you have.

Second, just to be sure my interpretation is correct, 61010-1, section 6.5.2.4, 
Impedance of protective bonding of plug-connected equipment, in the fist 
sentence, it has a limit of 100 mOhms impedance and my read is that this is for 
equipment with a power cord that has a plug on one end and a receptacle on the 
other.

Then, in the same section, still under the title of plug-connected equipment, 
it says for equipment that has a non-detachable power cord  the limit is 200 
mOhms.  My interpretation is that plug-connected equipment with a 
non-detachable power cord is when the power cord is hard wired to the unit 
under test, but still has a plug for mains connection.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance and you can reply here or privately to 
stev...@productehsconsulting.com


Steve Brody
sgbr...@comcast.net
C - 603 617 9116
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Re: [PSES] Air Handler near EMC Chamber

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Just a point of clarification. The question is specifically regarding how far 
away from the chamber the air handler should be placed on the roof?

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D73532.09C0DBB0]

From: Wiseman, Joshua 
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 3:28 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Air Handler near EMC Chamber

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Our EMC chamber protrudes through the roof of the single-story portion of our 
building. Due to some changes in the building use there is a need to add an air 
handling system. Obviously, we don't want it next to the chamber that is 
sticking out of the roof. So, I'm being asked for a number. Is this something 
anyone has some experience with?

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC / Systems Engineering
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
100 Indigo Creek Dr
Rochester, NY 14626
T: +1 (585) 453-4231
joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com<mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>
www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com<http://www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com/>

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[PSES] Air Handler near EMC Chamber

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Our EMC chamber protrudes through the roof of the single-story portion of our 
building. Due to some changes in the building use there is a need to add an air 
handling system. Obviously, we don't want it next to the chamber that is 
sticking out of the roof. So, I'm being asked for a number. Is this something 
anyone has some experience with?

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC / Systems Engineering
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
100 Indigo Creek Dr
Rochester, NY 14626
T: +1 (585) 453-4231
joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com
www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com

[cid:image001.png@01D73530.A3D61E60]
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Re: [PSES] OATS installation

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Last time I did this was 20 yrs ago. At the time the company I was with 
partnered with a smaller EMC lab who consulted with us and helped with the NSA 
measurements. We ended up sharing a set of dipole antennas through the 
arrangement.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D715AB.EF9C0750]

From: Dan Roman <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 11:59 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] OATS installation

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Hi Mark,

Been a couple decades (at least) since I looked into this but ETS-Lindgren 
might be one company to look at.

Dan


From: Stultz, Mark [mailto:0f79f2e10e47-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 11:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] OATS installation

Hello,
In an effort to get more accurate pre-compliance measurements, we're looking 
into building an OATS setup.  Does anyone know of any companies in the US that 
will install/build one?

Thanks,




Mark Stultz
10175 Philipp Parkway
Senior Mechanical Development Engineer
Streetsboro, OH 44241
CMSE® - Certified Machinery Safety Expert (TÜV NORD)
330-342-2402
Automated Packaging Systems



[cid:image003.png@01D715AB.EF7F7EA0]


autobag.com
SealedAir.com



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Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Thanks for the correction. Haven’t used the standard in a few years.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D698BC.81B0A780]

From: Dan Roman <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2020 10:58 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


EN 62233 is called out in the EN version of 60335-1, but not in the IEC 
version.  So it is an EU deviation only I believe.

Dan

From: Wiseman, Joshua [mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2020 3:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

Brian,

It is called out in the IEC 60335 standards. I don’t recall if it is in -1 or 
the -2s.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D698BC.81B0A780]

From: Brian Kunde mailto:bkundew...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 11:30 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics unless 
they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.

Brian

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham 
mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com>> wrote:
Scott

There no “solid guidance”

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
https://sulisconsultants.com/<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsulisconsultants.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cjoshua.wiseman%40orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com%7Ced37e668abf8422599cd08d866e39cb0%7C6e63ffc0c2fc4cc4b6c4666b2ce89d92%7C0%7C0%7C637372475943805772&sdata=CSxnksLCSI8rpJbnsJtEHyQYFmpae9yiyN5z5zuMblg%3D&reserved=0>
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
-


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Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Brian,

It is called out in the IEC 60335 standards. I don’t recall if it is in -1 or 
the -2s.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D69806.2DDD1E60]

From: Brian Kunde 
Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 11:30 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


When do you know if a product needs to be tested to these standards or not?  
What requires this testing?  Is there a criteria that can be used?  Does the 
SCOPE of these standards make it clear if and when the standards need to be 
applied to a product?   We have had customers request it but most electronic 
equipment doesn't put out enough magnetic or electromagnetic fields to even 
make it onto the graph?  Seems like a waste of time for most electronics unless 
they incorporate high current or high power RF transmitters.

Brian

On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 2:18 AM Charlie Blackham 
mailto:char...@sulisconsultants.com>> wrote:
Scott

There no “solid guidance”

EN 50663:2017 is a much more recent standard and makes reference to both EN 
62311:2008 and EN 62479:2010 for assessment, but does not allow use of EN 62479 
table B.1 for using higher transmit powers for values of Pmax

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Web: 
https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 30 September 2020 14:53
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EMF harmonised standards

I notice EN 62311 is commonly used for electrical appliances.  For AV/ITE 
products, there are 3 standards: EN 50633, EN 62311 and EN 62479 to be used.  
Is there any solid guidance to select the correct standard for the product 
category?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
-


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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To po

Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

[Wiseman, Joshua]

I dealt with three phase a little bit at a previous employer. A couple items 
that become important is whether it's a balanced load on all three lines and if 
you're using a neutral conductor or not. We had options for with and without 
neutral.

Typically, we power the controls and single phase motors off of L1 and N or L1 
and L2 depending if we have a neutral. This often-caused higher currents on L1 
and if there was a neutral you could see higher leakage currents on it.

Often our loads on L2 and L3 were three phase motors so filtering was not 
always needed, so we would use a filter on L1-N or L1-L2 for the controls. In 
rare cases where electronics/controls were used on other lines there would be a 
filter on those as well.

For products with resistive heating elements we did our best to balance the 
load on each line.

This never seemed to be a problem for us.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman 
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics



-Original Message-
From: Cortland Richmond  
Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2020 1:50 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action



It's three phase -- and you'll need a three-phase filter sharing one return 
winding rather than three single phase filters.

IMHO.


Cortland Richmond


-Original Message-
>From: Amund Westin 
>Sent: Jun 28, 2020 4:58 AM
>To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
>Subject: [PSES] Conducted emission - AC line filters makes it worse
>
>A 3-phase product has three internal AC driven devices.
>The product fails on Conducted emission. When connecting AC filters to 
>each internal AC driven devices, the emission gets even worse.
>
>Any clue about this phenomena? Is it some kind of impedance mismatch 
>which derate the filters performance?
>
>BR
>Amund
>
>-
>
>This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
>emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
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>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Re: [PSES] Tracking future UL safety standards

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Charlie,

UL CSDS allows you to see proposals. You can also get on an email list to let 
you know when changes take place.

https://csds.ul.com/Home/Default.aspx

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D63E53.6EFB77F0]

From: Charlie Blackham 
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:13 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Tracking future UL safety standards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


If I want to look at what CENELEC standards are being developed, I can look at 
the work program for the relevant Technical Committee, such as TC 
61
 - is there a similar public domain website that shows what UL safety standards 
are being revised?

Best regards
Charlie

Charlie Blackham
Sulis Consultants Ltd
Mead House
Longwater Road
Eversley
RG27 0NW
UK
Tel: +44 (0)7946 624317
Email: char...@sulisconsultants.com
Web: 
https://sulisconsultants.com/
Registered in England and Wales, number 05466247

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Re: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Thanks Pete. Looks like trips to DC again, or maybe Bathesda. I dealt with this 
at my last employer for a different issue that one was with the EPA though.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D622AA.4C3F4D50]

From: Pete Perkins 
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 4:52 PM
To: Wiseman, Joshua ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Joshua,Looks like they are using pressure tactics instead of 
rulemaking.

   Unless the pandemic pulls everything back so far that survival 
will be the name of the game everywhere for some years you have some work to do.

   Your company needs to pushback.  Indirectly thru your 61010 EMC 
group and directly, if you have been pushed on this by the FDA or lab claiming 
FDA, to get this stopped until there is a direct 'order'.  Ideally the FDA 
should come to the 61010 EMC group and negotiate a change in the EMC standard 
which will require the same requirements for some specific equipment and/or 
tests which are acceptable - ala 60601 EMC requirements.  It is important to 
get the requirements in the 61010 EMC family rather than have you working with 
60601 EMC requirements; this will put pressure on the gov't to justify their 
requirements technically allowing you to limit the scope and detail of the 
additional requirements.

   Further, if this is also an Euro CE marking issue (from Euro 
medical requirements) then get all the parties into the same room to 
renegotiate the EMC requirements in a way that is satisfactory to all parties 
(probably will take more time).

   It is important to use your industry group to bring max pressure 
on doing this in an open and mutually agreeable way - modifying your standard.

   This is not an easy path; there will also be a threat of Federal 
rulemaking to move it in the direction they desire.

   Get your association legal folks involved early too; they will 
advise on strategies to move ahead plus help pushing back on gov't pressure.

   Looks like your spare time for the next 5 years is soaked up to 
get this done.

   Good luck.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 1067
Albany, ORe  97321-0413

503/452-1201

IEEE Life Fellow
IEEE PSES 2020 Distinguished Lecturer
p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

Entropy ain't what it used to be

From: Wiseman, Joshua 
mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 12:17 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

FDA has allowed IEC 61326-2-6 for a long time. Word on the street is they are 
requiring IEC 60601-1-2 now but there has not been an official announcement. We 
heard about it through a trade group.

Story is some manufacturers are being told during their 510(k) reviews and have 
required rework very late in the game to meet the more stringent requirements. 
Usually, by this time they are about to launch or maybe already launched in 
some countries depending on the product and regulations.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D622AA.4C3F4D50]

From: rwell...@wellman.com<mailto:rwell...@wellman.com> 
mailto:rwell...@wellman.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 2:56 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


I've been out of doing EMC Compliance for Laboratory Equipment for some years, 
but is this a general protocol statement in the IEC standard or an FDA 
requirement? I would hope there is an FDA Guidance Document that clarifies this?

Best regards,
Ron Wellman

From: Ruth Shapira mailto:rshap...@tauex.tau.ac.il>>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 10:06 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

Hi Josh,
If the IVD equipment is used in a medical environment (hospital, clinic, etc.) 
the applied standard is IEC 60601-1-2 ed.4 (in which are specified the 
environments for use a medical electrical equipment). If the IVD equipment is 
located in a laboratory area out of medical env, the IEC 62368-2-6 (IVD Lab 
Equip) standard apply.
I hope that the above help.
Best Regards and lot of health,
Steli





Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE
VP for Technical Activities and Member of BoG IEEE-PSES
Convener IEC 62A/MT29+MT 62354
17-3 Shaul HaMelech Blvd.
Tel Aviv 6436719
Israel
Tel:+972-3-6912668
Fax:+972-3-6913988
Mobile:+97

Re: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

[Wiseman, Joshua]

FDA has allowed IEC 61326-2-6 for a long time. Word on the street is they are 
requiring IEC 60601-1-2 now but there has not been an official announcement. We 
heard about it through a trade group.

Story is some manufacturers are being told during their 510(k) reviews and have 
required rework very late in the game to meet the more stringent requirements. 
Usually, by this time they are about to launch or maybe already launched in 
some countries depending on the product and regulations.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D62227.0AB54890]

From: rwell...@wellman.com 
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 2:56 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


I've been out of doing EMC Compliance for Laboratory Equipment for some years, 
but is this a general protocol statement in the IEC standard or an FDA 
requirement? I would hope there is an FDA Guidance Document that clarifies this?

Best regards,
Ron Wellman

From: Ruth Shapira mailto:rshap...@tauex.tau.ac.il>>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 10:06 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

Hi Josh,
If the IVD equipment is used in a medical environment (hospital, clinic, etc.) 
the applied standard is IEC 60601-1-2 ed.4 (in which are specified the 
environments for use a medical electrical equipment). If the IVD equipment is 
located in a laboratory area out of medical env, the IEC 62368-2-6 (IVD Lab 
Equip) standard apply.
I hope that the above help.
Best Regards and lot of health,
Steli





Steli Loznen, M.Sc., SM-IEEE
VP for Technical Activities and Member of BoG IEEE-PSES
Convener IEC 62A/MT29+MT 62354
17-3 Shaul HaMelech Blvd.
Tel Aviv 6436719
Israel
Tel:+972-3-6912668
Fax:+972-3-6913988
Mobile:+972-54-4818816
e-mail: sloz...@ieee.org<mailto:sloz...@ieee.org>

From: Wiseman, Joshua 
mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 6:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

Recently there has been reports of the FDA requiring in vitro diagnostic 
equipment to be tested according to IEC 60601-1-2 (Medical Equip) instead of 
IEC 62368-2-6 (IVD Lab Equip).

Does anyone have any information about this?

Thanks,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person 
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https://www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com/en-us/home/privacy-policy

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Re: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

[Wiseman, Joshua]

The product is purely IVD lab equipment. The correct standards are IEC 61010-1, 
IEC 61010-2-101 and a couple other IEC 61010-2-0xx standards depending on the 
exact product. IEC 61326-1 and IEC 61326-2-6 are the correct EMC standards.

The product is an analyzer used to test body fluids for diagnostic purposes, 
examples include Glucose, A1c, HIV, Hepatitis, now Covid-19 antibodies, 
substances of abuse and so on. We're talking about large instruments that take 
anywhere from 5 to 70 mins for results depending on the assay being run. A 
small unit is a little large than 1 cubic meter.  The instruments are often 
used in labs in the hospital or off-site labs. It would be uncommon for them to 
be used in a medical setting.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D62208.FD7ED9C0]

From: Matthew D. Varas 
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 11:32 AM
To: Wiseman, Joshua ; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: EMC testing for IVD equipment

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


First let me clarify that I don't work with in vitro devices. With that out of 
the way, below are two excerpts from the redline version of 60601-1 2012. This 
reads to me like it expands the definition of devices that would be covered 
under the 60601-1 umbrella which, if the device was covered by 60601-1, I 
believe would include then 60601-1-2 for EMC. Please someone correct me if I'm 
totally off base here.

Have you checked the FDA's CFR section pertinent to your device? They may 
provide some further clarification.


>From the Scope section of 60601-1. I'm not sure if the color will show 
>correctly so, just in case, the red/underlined portions are what was struck 
>and everything below that was added.

The IEC 60601 series does not apply to:
- Inin vitro diagnostic equipment that does not fall within the definition of 
ME EQUIPMENT, which
is covered by the IEC 61010 series 2). This standard does not apply to the 
implantable parts
of active implantable medical devices covered by ISO 14708-1 3). [61];
- implantable parts of active implantable medical devices covered by the ISO 
14708 series
[69]; or
- medical gas pipeline systems covered by ISO 7396-1 [68].
NOTE 2 ISO 7396-1 applies the requirement of IEC 60601-1-8 to certain 
monitoring and ALARM SIGNALS.



>From the definitions section:
3.63
* MEDICAL ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT
ME EQUIPMENT
electrical equipment having an APPLIED PART or transferring energy to or from 
the PATIENT or
detecting such energy transfer to or from the PATIENT and which is:
a) provided with not more than one connection to a particular SUPPLY MAINS; and
b) intended by its MANUFACTURER to be used:
1) in the diagnosis, treatment, or monitoring of a PATIENT; or
2) for compensation or alleviation of disease, injury or disability
NOTE 1 ME EQUIPMENT includes those ACCESSORIES as defined by the MANUFACTURER 
that are necessary to enable the
NORMAL USE of the ME EQUIPMENT.
NOTE 2 Not all electrical equipment used in medical practice falls within this 
definition (e.g. some in vitro diagnostic
equipment).
NOTE 3 The implantable parts of active implantable medical devices can fall 
within this definition, but they are
excluded from the scope of this standard by appropriate wording in Clause 1.
NOTE 4 This standard uses the term "electrical equipment" to mean ME EQUIPMENT 
or other electrical equipment.
NOTE 5 See also 4.10.1, 8.2.1 and 16.3.









Matthew Varas
Electrical Engineer
WR Medical Electronics Co
1700 Gervais Avenue | Maplewood, MN 55109 | U.S.A.
Office: 651.604.8473
m...@wrmed.com<mailto:m...@wrmed.com>

From: Wiseman, Joshua 
mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 10:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

Recently there has been reports of the FDA requiring in vitro diagnostic 
equipment to be tested according to IEC 60601-1-2 (Medical Equip) instead of 
IEC 62368-2-6 (IVD Lab Equip).

Does anyone have any information about this?

Thanks,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person 
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copies and delete the material from all computers. In connection with our 
business, Ortho Clinical Diagnostics may collect and p

[PSES] EMC testing for IVD equipment

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Recently there has been reports of the FDA requiring in vitro diagnostic 
equipment to be tested according to IEC 60601-1-2 (Medical Equip) instead of 
IEC 62368-2-6 (IVD Lab Equip).

Does anyone have any information about this?

Thanks,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person 
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, trade secret 
and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient(s) of this 
message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to 
the intended recipient(s), do not review, retransmit, disclose, disseminate, 
use, or take any action in reliance upon, this information. If you received 
this transmission in error, please contact the sender and destroy all printed 
copies and delete the material from all computers. In connection with our 
business, Ortho Clinical Diagnostics may collect and process your personal 
data. For further information regarding how we use this data, please see our 
online privacy notice at 
https://www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com/en-us/home/privacy-policy


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Re: [PSES] Power quality issues in India

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Dan, in a past life I worked for a company that makes commercial ice cream 
makers like you would see in your local Dairy Queen, McDonalds, Burger King, 
etc.  For India we had to include a UPS for some of our models because the 
power there would give us problems with the controls.  I don't know the details 
but I do recall adding a UPS option to a newer model unit as recently as 3 yrs 
ago because of it.

The UPS took care of the problem for the manufacturer when I worked there.

Josh


From: Dan Roman <0d75e04ed751-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2020 12:35 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Power quality issues in India

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Hello List!  Hope everyone is staying healthy and safe.

I would like to know if anyone has experience with power quality issues in 
India related to damaging equipment and whether you find it is necessary to 
harden power supply designs specifically for India that you would not normally 
consider for other regions like the EU.  From some reading on the topic there 
seem to be power quality issues but these are largely power interruptions and 
voltage sags that would temporarily cause the product to stop functioning but 
not result in the permanent damage of a global design.

I have no recent experience with India but over a decade ago I do not recall 
having any issues with equipment in data centers, but perhaps they had facility 
power conditioning so the local building infrastructure prevented issues.  Is 
the failure rate with typical consumer products higher in India because of 
power quality issues?  Are extra precautions necessary?

Thank you.

__
Dan Roman, N.C.E.
Senior Member
IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
mailto:dan.ro...@ieee.org





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Re: [PSES] Mandatory certification

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Having worked for an NRTL in the past and with a few manufacturers, I can 
attest to Dave’s comment.  Generally, the manufacturer is responsible for the 
field inspection of the equipment.  Several of the major NRTL’s in the US have 
a program in place for this process.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[cid:image001.png@01D5E800.7268C310]

From: David Nyffenegger 
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 2:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mandatory certification

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Or typically the government organization, the AHJ, simply accepts the field 
inspection label applied by NRTL or other recognized entity.  The 
owner/operator of the product is ultimately responsible for the inspection.  
I’ve never known a government organization to hire a NRTL for field inspection, 
unless of course the product in question is owned/operated by said government 
organization (which is not unusual.)   In my experience as a manufacturer we 
will often provide for a field inspection/label of un-listed product as part of 
the sales agreement to the customer.

-Dave

On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 1:59 PM Richard Nute 
mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> wrote:

Hi Regan:

While field inspection is not part of OSHA's NRTL program, OSHA rules allow 
another government (federal, state, local) organization to determine compliance 
with the NEC.  See:

https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.399

I would guess that such a government organization (not the manufacturer) would 
hire a NRTL to do a field inspection.

Best regards,
Rich


From: Regan Arndt mailto:reganar...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 10:46 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] Re: [PSES] Mandatory certification

Hello Dave/Bernd.

Just a comment/clarification. The field inspection/label program is not part of 
OSHA's NRTL program despite some NRTL's that conducted this service. I know it 
can seem confusing but there are also some non-NRTL's that conduct these field 
evaluations, all of which are under state jurisdiction.

Some may think they are abiding by OSHA rules with obtaining a field evaluation 
by an NRTL. That is not the case.

Regan

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Re: [PSES] Class I vs Class II safety constructions

[Wiseman, Joshua]

It’s been a few years, but I seem to recall there was a particular IEC/EN 
60335-2-xx standard that required tubular sheathed heaters to be grounded.  
This would force PE to be brought in.

Additionally, IEC 60335-2-38 and IEC 60335-2-75 have requirements for 
Equipotential grounding.  If I remember correctly IEC 60335-2-75 does not allow 
Class II products.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj]

From: Richard Nute 
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 2:38 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Class I vs Class II safety constructions

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action



Hi Scott:

I have seen no safety standards or codes that specify which products must be 
Class I and which products must be Class II, except in the USA washers and 
dryers must be Class I.  As far as I know, the decision is that of the 
manufacturer.  I have been associated with a manufacturer who has made the same 
product both ways.  In my case, one of the factors in deciding Class I or Class 
II was cost (e.g., a 3-wire cord was more expensive than a 2-wire cord).

I suspect a major factor is “momentum” of the manufacturer: we made it this way 
last time, and we know how to do it this way.

A product with a grounding (3-wire) power cord is a Class I product regardless 
whether it has no accessible conductive parts.  Unlike a Class II product, a 
Class I product does not bear a marking attesting that it is Class I.

Note that a Class I construction necessarily includes Class II construction, 
e.g., appliance inlet which is all-insulated.  We ignore the Class II 
construction portions of a Class I product.

I checked our electric kettle (which has accessible metal) and electric 
coffee-maker (which has the heater plate accessible metal).  Both are 2-wire.  
Neither has the double-insulated symbol.  Both are UL-certified.

Best regards from beautiful snowy Bend, Oregon, USA,
Rich


From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 6:59 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Class I vs Class II safety constructions

In terms of safety level, both constructions are given the equivalent 
protection against electric shock.  In electrical appliances, Class I is used 
most whereas Class II is employed in most electronic products.  Is there any 
background for such design route?

In some cases such as induction cookers, the enclosure is plastic/glass - no 
any internal metal part exposes to the outside surfaces.  The product is not 
marked with a double square symbol and comes with a 3-pin plug.  Why is this 
type of product not classified as Class II rather than Class I with the 
plastic/glass enclosure?

Thanks and regards,

Scott
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htt

Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule

[Wiseman, Joshua]

John,

I first came across it in Annex H of CIPSR 11: 2015.  The informative annex 
gives some guidance on statistical confidence levels and references the 80/80 
rule.

It also gives guidance on sample size based on the margins you see.

I don't know much more than this.  It proved helpful when we had an issue 
recently though.  It gave me a place to point to support my point of view.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj]

From: John Woodgate 
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 12:55 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 80/80 rule

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action



Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards and 
if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please?

--

Best wishes

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK
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Re: [PSES] Vacuum hazards

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Doug,

Not sure what type of device you’re working with.  Have you checked the 60335 
standards?  There is one for vent hoods and a couple for vacuums.  The vent 
hoods is more geared toward commercial kitchen venting, but you may find 
something else in the 60335 family.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj]

From: Douglas Powell 
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Vacuum hazards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


All,

Looking into MD and LVD using EN 60204-1 and EN 61010-1.  I find absolutely 
nothing on vacuum hazards.  Is anyone aware of guidance on this topic?

Thanks so much,  Doug



--

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01
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[PSES] Compliance Engineer position at Dexcom

[Wiseman, Joshua]

This came to me last night.  Please respond to Mark directly.

I wanted to ask for some network assistance, if possible. I've got a fantastic 
opportunity here at Dexcom for a Sr Staff Compliance 
engineer and wanted to ask if you might know of someone, including yourself, 
that might be interested in discussing this opportunity in more detail.

I've included the link to the job description below. Feel free to review it and 
apply if you have an interest in joining our team.

https://careers.dexcom.com/job/DEXCUS3764/Senior-Staff-Compliance-Engineer

This position would be located in our San Diego office and is a Full Time 
Employment Opportunity. I look forward to hearing back from you and hope to be 
able to return the favor sometime in the future.

Best,

Mark R. Castaneda
Dexcom Talent Acquisition

:: DEXCOM
E-mail: mark.castan...@dexcom.com
Ph: 858-203-6954
6310 Sequence Drive
San Diego CA 92121


Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
100 Indigo Creek Dr
Rochester, NY 14626
joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com
www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com

[https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj]

The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person 
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, trade secret 
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Re: [PSES] Semi-Anechoic Chamber move

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Thanks for the feedback from everyone.  I know that moving the chamber is not 
ideal.  We'll see how everything plays out.

Thanks,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

[https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj]

From: Wiseman, Joshua 
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 10:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Semi-Anechoic Chamber move

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


We are facing the prospects of moving our EMC lab from one building to another 
one.  I'm working on information around the impact of such a move.  Does anyone 
have any input on the cost to move a 3m chamber.  The walls a ceiling would 
need the foam and ferrite panels removed prior to teardown and then put back on 
after rebuilding.  There is a small control room attached as well.

Not exactly sure of dimensions, but it's around 30' x 20' x 24'.

Thanks,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com<mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>
www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com<http://www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com/>

[https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj]

The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person 
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, trade secret 
and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient(s) of this 
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the intended recipient(s), do not review, retransmit, disclose, disseminate, 
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[PSES] Semi-Anechoic Chamber move

[Wiseman, Joshua]

We are facing the prospects of moving our EMC lab from one building to another 
one.  I'm working on information around the impact of such a move.  Does anyone 
have any input on the cost to move a 3m chamber.  The walls a ceiling would 
need the foam and ferrite panels removed prior to teardown and then put back on 
after rebuilding.  There is a small control room attached as well.

Not exactly sure of dimensions, but it's around 30' x 20' x 24'.

Thanks,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com
www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com

[https://insideortho.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.global/wps/wcm/myconnect/add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61/OrthoMailSigLogo160x17.png?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-add13339-9211-4e73-9f5d-229f45406f61-mm1LfFj]

The information contained in this transmission is intended only for the person 
or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, trade secret 
and/or privileged material. If you are not the intended recipient(s) of this 
message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of this message to 
the intended recipient(s), do not review, retransmit, disclose, disseminate, 
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online privacy notice at 
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Re: [PSES] Standards

[Wiseman, Joshua]

As a UL customer you don’t get access to the UL standards that are harmonized 
with the IEC standards.  UL says the copyright won’t allow it.

I tend to get them from Estonian Standards Institute provided the EN amendments 
have caught up with the IEC.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Systems Engineering
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org]
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2019 1:09 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Frank,   If you are already a UL Certification customer you have access to the 
UL version of the standard which applies to your product.  This standard is a 
NA/IEC harmonized standard and includes all of the IEC text plus NA additions 
and deviations (all appropriately marked).  Check the available version of 
61010-1 to ensure that it covers the amendments you are seeking.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

IEEE Life Fellow
p.perk...@ieee.org

From: Frank Tang 
<0d3fa4ae712a-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ieee.org>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2019 1:37 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Standards

Hi PSTC community,
Looking to purchase a copy of IEC 61010-1:2010 standard and saw there are many 
revisions.
Products will be utilized in a laboratory environment.

Before purchasing a copy, would like to know the difference between IEC 
61010-1:2010/AMD1:2016  and
IEC 61010-1:2010+AMD1:2016 CSV Consolidated version?
Because there is quite a price difference,CHF 170 and CHF 700 respectively.

--
Thank you and best regards.
- Frank
-


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Re: [PSES] HP 8546A EMI Receiver - Looking for calibration facility

[Wiseman, Joshua]

We use Hayes for ours.

Regards,
Josh

From: Sykes, Bob [mailto:bob.sy...@gilbarco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:21 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] HP 8546A EMI Receiver - Looking for calibration facility

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Worldly Experts,

I just learned that Keysight has unceremoniously dropped calibration and repair 
support for the 8546A EMI receiver.
It's an old beast, but we like it and use it a lot.  Does anyone still use one 
of these and know of a facility (preferably U.S.) that can calibrate them?

adTHANKSvance,
Bob Sykes





Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you 
are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the 
sender and delete this message. The sender disclaims that the content of this 
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provided that the foregoing does not invalidate the binding effect of any 
digital or other electronic reproduction of a manual signature that is included 
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BEGIN:VCARD
PROFILE:VCARD
VERSION:3.0
MAILER:Microsoft Exchange
PRODID:Microsoft Exchange
FN:Jim Danaher
N:Danaher;Jim;;;
EMAIL;TYPE=INTERNET:j...@hayesinstruments.com
NOTE:
ORG:Hayes Instrument Service;
CLASS:PUBLIC
ADR;TYPE=WORK:;;530 Boston Rd;Billerica;MA;01821;USA
LABEL;TYPE=WORK:530 Boston Rd\nBillerica\, MA  01821
ADR;TYPE=HOME,PREF:;;
LABEL;TYPE=HOME,PREF: 
ADR;TYPE=POSTAL:;;
LABEL;TYPE=POSTAL: 
TEL;TYPE=WORK:978-663-4800
TEL;TYPE=PREF:978-663-4800
URL;TYPE=HOME:j...@hayesinstruments.com
REV;VALUE=DATE-TIME:2018-10-23T15:36:46,492Z
END:VCARD

Re: [PSES] HP 8546A EMI Receiver - Looking for calibration facility

[Wiseman, Joshua]

We don't have the same model though.  So, hopefully they can help you.

Josh

From: Wiseman, Joshua
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:37 AM
To: 'Sykes, Bob'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: HP 8546A EMI Receiver - Looking for calibration facility

We use Hayes for ours.

Regards,
Josh

From: Sykes, Bob [mailto:bob.sy...@gilbarco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:21 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] HP 8546A EMI Receiver - Looking for calibration facility

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Worldly Experts,

I just learned that Keysight has unceremoniously dropped calibration and repair 
support for the 8546A EMI receiver.
It's an old beast, but we like it and use it a lot.  Does anyone still use one 
of these and know of a facility (preferably U.S.) that can calibrate them?

adTHANKSvance,
Bob Sykes





Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you 
are not the intended recipient, please notify us by email by replying to the 
sender and delete this message. The sender disclaims that the content of this 
email constitutes an offer to enter into, or the acceptance of, any agreement; 
provided that the foregoing does not invalidate the binding effect of any 
digital or other electronic reproduction of a manual signature that is included 
in any attachment.
-


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Re: [PSES] How to lose another million dollars

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Some company's do this, but that number is pretty small.  There are a bunch 
that are more of a "toddler to grave" approach.  This seems to work fairly 
well, but there is the occasional thing that could've been caught ealier.

Josh

From: John Allen [mailto:09cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 1:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] How to lose another million dollars

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


"Been there, seen that" OH SO many times ! :(

Emphasises the need for a defined "cradle to grave" Project Lifecycle which 
includes the Project Compliance targets at each stage, and with the 
responsibilities laid out in some detail so that progress can be accurately  
forecast and monitored - and that needs to be understood and formally agreed at 
the highest management levels.

And if anyone (in a position of responsibility) in the team disagrees with that 
approach at any stage of the process, then they should be made to take their 
case to the highest management levels - that might cause them to "think again" 
before actually doing that.

John E Allen
W. London, UK

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: 14 September 2018 17:45
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] How to lose another million dollars


It's inevitable that there still are some dinosaurs around who don't see the 
need for both making the project leader internally responsible for compliance 
(so that Development and Compliance share interests instead of being opposed) 
and for the need for pre-compliance checks on the first 'good' engineering 
model (not the first model that 'sort-of' works, that's too early).

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-09-14 17:03, Pete Perkins wrote:
James,  Oh yes, I have another real life story.  In dealing with the compliance 
issues on a product I recommended that they run a pre-compliance EMC check and 
the chief electrical engineer rebutted that it was so straightforward that they 
would do that last, just before releasing the product to marketing.  His 
position was that this is basic engineering stuff and any competent design 
engineer would get it right to begin with or a simple fix would take care of 
it.With a little backpressure the pre-scan was done and the product failed 
miserably.  Needless to say, it took a number of trials to get it all properly 
fixed to pass; the release date was missed and the chief electrical engineer 
lost his job over it.  So we see: lunacy runs both ways.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

IEEE Life Fellow
p.perk...@ieee.org

From: James Pawson (U3C) 

Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 8:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] How to lose another million dollars

Hi John,
Is this an actual true story? I'm lost for words...
James

From: John Woodgate mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk>>
Sent: 14 September 2018 12:57
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] How to lose another million dollars


Prepare for sob story. Company X has implemented the sensible policy of making 
the project leader internally responsible for EMC and safety compliance, i.e., 
when the product is tested by the compliance experts, it passes or has only 
minor defects.

So John Doe takes his engineering model, scheduled for production in 9 months 
time to Compliance and asks for pre-compliance checks. No can do, is the reply. 
Our new policy is that only products whose planned release date is 4 months or 
less ahead can be checked.

Truly, nothing is fool-proof because Nature keeps producing more and more 
ingenious fools.

--

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK
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Re: [PSES] Recommondations for Test Equipment

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Brian,

In the past I used Valhalla Scientific.  The older models didn’t have any 
communication though.  Not sure if they do now or not.

I’ve been using Newton’s 4th more recently, but I use the same instrument for 
Harmonics and Flicker so the price tag isn’t as bad.  This has Ethernet, serial 
and USB options.

Josh

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 11:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Recommondations for Test Equipment

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Please send replies directly to me if this is a group violation.

In our Safety lab, we do input current tests. We currently use two handheld 
meters; one showing Voltage and the other Current via a current clamp.

We want to replace these two meters with a single piece of test equipment that 
will provide live data measurements via a PC Interface.   It would also be nice 
if it could provide power, power factor, and other such measurements.

We would like it to have a hardy interface, such as Ethernet or old fashion 
serial port (no USB).  We take these measurements in our EMC Lab where USB has 
a hard time surviving.

Labview compatible would be nice. Since we write our own code, we will have to 
have access to the command set.

Any recommendations?  We don’t really need the features and expense of a full 
blown power analyzer. Does anyone make something like this?

Thanks,
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
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Re: [PSES] Hello

[Wiseman, Joshua]

That makes me glad I don’t live in Orange County anymore.  Maybe 2003 really 
was a good time to leave CA...

Just make sure you take care of the zombies and save the rest of us.

Josh

From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 2:47 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Hello

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Actually, most of us on the west coast have been busy fending off a zombie 
outbreak.

Members of the Orange County and San Diego PSES chapters were last seen getting 
their hi-pot machines ready as first line of defense, but believe them to have 
insufficient joules to be effective.

Brian


From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 11:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Hello


Hi Josh:

I guess all of our problems are solved.  😊  Or is it Spring Break?

Rich


From: Wiseman, Joshua 
mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 5:21 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Hello

I haven’t received any emails this week.  Just want to make sure I’m still 
getting them.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
100 Indigo Creek Dr
Rochester, NY 14626
T: +1 (585) 453-4231
joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com<mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>
www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com<http://www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com>

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[PSES] Hello

[Wiseman, Joshua]

I haven't received any emails this week.  Just want to make sure I'm still 
getting them.

Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
100 Indigo Creek Dr
Rochester, NY 14626
T: +1 (585) 453-4231
joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com
www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com


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[PSES] Haefley Surge and EFT equipment

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Through an acquisition of an EMC lab we have a few items that we have no use 
for.  The items are currently installed in a rack together but we are willing 
to part them out.  The list of equipment is below.  Anyone who is interested 
let me know.


* FP-Surge 32.1 - Coupling Filter

* IP 6.2 - Coupling Network

* DEC1A - Decoupling Unit

* EP-EFT 32.1 - Coupling Filter

Thanks,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Staff Engineer, Product Safety/EMC
Ortho Clinical Diagnostics
100 Indigo Creek Dr
Rochester, NY 14626
T: +1 (585) 453-4231
joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com
www.orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com


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Re: [PSES] ISO17025 Antenna Calibration

[Wiseman, Joshua]

Oops, thanks for the correction.

Josh

From: Knighten, Jim L [mailto:jim.knigh...@teradata.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 12:19 PM
To: Wiseman, Joshua; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] ISO17025 Antenna Calibration

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


It's the other way around.
They used to be Liberty labs and now they are Keysight.


James L. Knighten, Ph.D.
Teradata
17095 Via Del Campo
San Diego, CA 92127
858-485-2537

From: Wiseman, Joshua [mailto:joshua.wise...@orthoclinicaldiagnostics.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 8:43 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] ISO17025 Antenna Calibration

John,

We're using Liberty Labs (formerly Keysight). In Kimbalton, IA.  Cindy 
Schechinger or Ashley Gormley (712) 773-2199

Josh

From: John Mcauley [mailto:john.mcau...@cei.ie]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 10:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] ISO17025 Antenna Calibration

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Hi

Can anyone suggest a US based antenna calibration facility that provides ISO 
17025 accredited calibration to ANSI 63.5.  A Google search doesn't point to 
obvious suppliers.

They must be accredited to ISO 17025.

Thanks in advance

John McAuley
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Re: [PSES] ISO17025 Antenna Calibration

[Wiseman, Joshua]

John,

We're using Liberty Labs (formerly Keysight). In Kimbalton, IA.  Cindy 
Schechinger or Ashley Gormley (712) 773-2199

Josh

From: John Mcauley [mailto:john.mcau...@cei.ie]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 10:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] ISO17025 Antenna Calibration

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action


Hi

Can anyone suggest a US based antenna calibration facility that provides ISO 
17025 accredited calibration to ANSI 63.5.  A Google search doesn't point to 
obvious suppliers.

They must be accredited to ISO 17025.

Thanks in advance

John McAuley
-


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Re: [PSES] Temp rise measurement

[Wiseman, Joshua]

I’ve done similar techniques.  The only problem I’ve run into is waiting for 
the motor to stop spinning in the case of fans.  The spinning can cause some 
erroneous readings too.

Josh

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 1:18 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Temp rise measurement

EXTERNAL SENDER: Verify links, attachments and sender before taking action



I made a box with a double-pole, double-throw switch, an appliance toggle 
switch which is inherently break-before-make. This disconnects the supply and 
connects the ohmmeter in about 0.2 seconds. It takes longer to read off the 
resistance!

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-12-19 17:55, Ted Eckert wrote:
I’ve used the rise of resistance method without problems. The challenge is 
making the measurement before the windings cool off. The rise of resistance 
method can be more challenging when you have a small winding that doesn’t hold 
heat well. It is practically impossible to make the measurement the instance 
power is removed. You may want to record the resistance over time to see the 
winding cooling off, allowing you to extrapolate back to time zero.

In a previous job, I had a product with a motorized impeller fan. The engineer 
from a NRTL asked me to use thermocouples. When I explained that the winding 
was spinning with the impeller, the engineer finally figured out that 
thermocouples wouldn’t work. It took 60 – 90 seconds to access the terminals on 
the winding from the time power was removed. I measured the resistance and 
recorded every 5 seconds to get enough information to extrapolate back to the 
time when power was removed. The windings were enclosed well enough that they 
were not getting much cooling from the moving air. As such, I did not expect 
that there was overshoot when power was removed and the fan stopped.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 9:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Temp rise measurement


Yes, there is a much better method. It measures the average temperature of the 
whole winding, rather than the temperature at a particular spot. IEC 62368-1 
incorrectly says that the thermocouple method measures the average temperature. 
You will find it explained in Annex E of IEC 60950-1. Incredibly, both IEC 
60065 and IEC 62368-1 refer to the 'resistance method' without either detailing 
it or providing a cross reference. This is a serious omission.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-12-19 16:12, Scott Xe wrote:

I will be conducting the temp rise measurements on windings of AC motors for 
electrical appliances such as washing machines, dishwashers, etc.  It said the 
thermal couple method is commonly adopted for safety assessment.  I can 
dismantle the windings and place the couples inside the windings using 
cyanoacrylate adhesive.  However it may change the original shape of windings 
giving non representative measurement result.  Is there any practically 
acceptable solution?



Does the measurement result include the overshoot temperature after the power 
is cut?



Thanks and regards,



Scott



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Re: [PSES] [External] Re: [PSES] Product Safety on refrigeration compressors and related products

[Wiseman, Joshua E UTC CCS]

The compressor standard is IEC 60335-2-34.  The product standard will vary 
based on what the product is but will likely be listed in the 60335 family as 
John mentioned.

Josh Wiseman
Senior Compliance Engineer

“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” 
– Harry S. Truman

Taylor Company
Joshua Wiseman
Senior Compliance Engineer
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From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 1:14 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Product Safety on refrigeration compressors and 
related products

You are asking for a six-page report! The first part is easy, if you want IEC 
standards. Go to 
www.iec.ch,
 go to Webstore and search for '60335'. You will get a long list. You need 
60335-1, which is the general Part, and one or more of the 60335-2-xx Sections 
that apply to refrigeration products. There may not be any for compressors 
alone; they are normally considered as part of a system.

The third part is also easy: the standards tell you how to test, in minute 
detail.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
 J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Vincent Lee [mailto:08e6c8d35910-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 6:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Product Safety on refrigeration compressors and related products

Hi all,

Good day,

1) May I know what are some of the product safety standards for refrigeration 
compressors and related products ?

2) What are some of the common safety risk or hazards posed by refrigeration 
compressors and related products?

3) And how to test and mitigate such risk ?

Hope to hear from you soon. Thank you very much.

Regards, Vincent
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Re: [PSES] EU Customs and EMC test report

[Wiseman, Joshua E BIS]

I agree with Dave here, but I will say that Turkey sometimes will demand a copy 
of a EMC report and they will note discrepancies like this.  That has been an 
issue that I have faced within the last year.  Since Turkey is not a member 
state of the EU they don’t follow the same EU procedures all the time.  They 
claim they want ‘CE’ declarations and if they don’t like something they will 
look at reports and then they see things like this and start to dig.  It has 
caused us to step back and simplify some of our documentation to try and curb 
these types of quests.

Josh

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 2:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] EU Customs and EMC test report

Chuck,

I would expect only to see the applicable standards listed in the lab test 
report that they tested to.  I don’t see directives listed in my lab test 
reports.  The DoC should identify the applicable directives and the standards 
used to support compliance with the directives. An EU Customs official 
wouldn’t normally be looking at your test reports unless there is a formal 
request for the technical file.   The lab test reports shouldn’t accompany the 
product shipment/paper work.

-Dave

From: Chuck McDowell [mailto:chu...@meyersound.com]
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 3:03 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] EU Customs and EMC test report

Dear Compliance Professionals,

Does a EMC test report issued by a accredited testing laboratory need to also 
reference the current EMC Directive 2004/108/EC?

My belief is that the EMC Directive needs to noted on the product Declaration 
of Conformity, and not in the EMC test report. Is this correct?
A EU Customs official stop a shipment because the EMC Directive noted in the 
EMC test report was out-of-date. I would like to remove EMC Directive dated 
notations from future reports.

Thank you in advance for your comments,

Chuck McDowell
Compliance Specialist
Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc.
2832 San Pablo Ave.
Berkeley, CA 94702-2204
Phone 510-486-1166 Ext. 270
Fax 510-486-8356
Email cmcdow...@meyersound.com





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http://www.meyersound.com/confidential/ for our complete policy.   ­­
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Re: [PSES] [External] Re: [PSES] Interference Caused by Microwave Oven

[Wiseman, Joshua E BIS]

IEC/EN 60335-2-25 and IEC/EN 60335-2-90 have limits on the radiation emitted 
from the microwave with the door open.  This includes testing with the seal 
broken and the door closed, when possible.  The limits are pretty strict so I 
would be a little surprised by this.  I haven’t read the article, nor do I know 
the history of the standard so there maybe something there too.

Josh

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 5:42 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Interference Caused by Microwave Oven

In message <1f28.6030...@gmail.com>, dated Thu, 14 May 2015, Doug Powell 
 writes:

>My question is this.  If the RF generated inside the oven does not stop 
>prior to the opening of the RF seal on the door, which testing is 
>responsible to identify this problem, EMC or the Safety testing

Not 'either/or': emission with the door open violates CISPR 11/EN 55011, it's 
also a violation of the Section of IEC/EN 60335-2 (too late here to look it up) 
and potentially a violation of the regulatory EMF exposure limits as measured 
according to IEC 62233.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk When I turn 
my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and 
Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Estonian Standards MultiUser License

[Wiseman, Joshua E BIS]

Brian,

The FileOpen control is not in place on the multiuser copies of their 
standards.  I store our copies on a network drive with limited access to about 
50 users.  I purchase the 2 license copy of it the standard knowing that it 
will be rare that more than 2 will use it at the same time.  With that said, 
there is nothing limiting more than 2 users viewing the document at the same 
time.

Josh

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 9:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] Estonian Standards MultiUser License

Please forgive me if this is a repeat.

Does anyone have experience buying Standards from Estonia using the MultiUser 
Licence? Do they still use FileOpen to control what computers can open the 
files like they do with a single user license or do they have a way of limiting 
how many different computers can open the files at one time?

I would like to put the standards files on our Intranet server so those in R&D 
can reference then when needed.  We may have 20 engineers who may reference a 
standard it would be rare that more than 2 would ever open the files at the 
same time.

I’m trying to figure out how their MultiUser License system works so I can 
purchase the right number of users.

Does anyone have experience with this?

Is there a better solution or cheaper source for EN standards?

Regards,

The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
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Re: [PSES] [External] Re: [PSES] Open Protective Earth Conductor Fault

[Wiseman, Joshua E BIS]

Years ago I worked for a company that produced an ITE product.  The power 
supply manufacturer had sent a batch of power supplies that the nut was not 
properly tightened on the PE conductor to chassis.  We actually found the 
problem during our production line ground bond testing.  After some testing we 
found an increased leakage current but still within the limits of the standard.

Not quite in the realm of the original question, but it shows that proper line 
testing can find errors that could result in issues in the field.

Josh

From: Scott Aldous [mailto:0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Open Protective Earth Conductor Fault

Standards typically apply touch or leakage current limits to plug-connected 
products. I believe that potential for an unreliable ground connection at the 
receptacle the product plugs into is at least as important a concern as the 
potential for faults inside the product itself. For example, in an old house in 
the USA with 2 prong outlets, it is common for the homeowner to simply use 
"cheater plug" adapters to avoid having to connect the ground pin at all. This 
could well be considered outside the intended use, but people will do it 
anyway, at least for a consumer product.

On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 11:00 PM, John Woodgate 
mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>> wrote:
In message <01cffc76$850f8100$8f2e8300$@wellman.com>, 
dated Sun, 9 Nov 2014, Ronald Wellman 
mailto:rwell...@wellman.com>> writes:

I would like to know if anyone has had an experience where a product actually 
experienced an open protective earth conductor fault after it left the factory. 
 If you have, what was the Root Cause?

Two cases:

- failure of weld of PE connection stud to metalwork;

- enclosure fixing screw severed PE connection in mains cable internal to the 
product.

Both products were small and no excessive touch current occurred.
I ask this because there are various standards that allow you to waive the 
touch current test because of the product connection means  to the building 
branch circuit. Because of this, I would like to know who has actually 
experienced a touch current hazard and under what conditions.

Regardless of what the standard allows, I would measure and minimise touch 
current, and as far as possible make the internal PE connection secure (i.e. 
screw or nut and bolt, no welded stud).
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See 
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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--
Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
Google
650-253-1994
scottald...@google.com
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Re: [PSES] Buying Standards

[Wiseman, Joshua E BIS]

Gert,

If you buy the multi-user versions from Estonia I don't think it is tied to the 
Adobe and Fileopen.  I always buy 2 license copies when I get standards from 
them and place the files on our network.  Our preferred pdf reader is not 
always Adobe and there have been no problems.

Josh

-Original Message-
From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:17 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Buying Standards

Well there is Adobe and Fileopen in that chain, as the license basically works 
with Adobe reader only.
Adobe is a well-known "track everything" internet operator.

And for those bodies. they act like commercial companies
Who looks over their shoulders BTW.?

Gert


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: woensdag 24 september 2014 14:57
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Buying Standards

In message ,
dated Wed, 24 Sep 2014, "ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen" 
 writes:

> The single user version is not usable in a commercial environment, as 
>it "phones home" and might transfer information that is confidential to

>my business operations.

Do you think a National Standards Body would have anything to do with such 
malpractice?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Freon 134a

[Wiseman, Joshua E BIS]

Richard,

This depends on what type of equipment the end product is.  There are 
regulations being drafted by the EPA as we speak.  Some types of equipment have 
extensions being granted while other types are expected to have a ban on R134a, 
possibly as soon as Jan 1, 2016.  Another consideration is if the product 
utilizes blown insulation that is R134a based, there is a push to stop use of 
this underway as well if a possible date of Jan 1, 2017.

Josh

From: W Richard Gartman [mailto:richard.gart...@agilent.com]
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 10:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] Freon 134a

We have several products that contain closed /sealed cooling systems with Freon 
134a in them? [There are not field serviceable units.]
What product take back regulations would apply to this kind of product in 
Canada and US?

This is a new type of product for me. Any assistance is welcome.

Best Regards,
W. Richard Gartman, CSP
Product Regulatory Affairs
Agilent Technologies, Inc.
www.Agilent.com
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Re: [PSES] Testing to EN/IEC 60601-1-2

[Wiseman, Joshua E BIS]

David,

Some safety labs will rely on the EMC test house to verify the applicable 
Clause 5 requirements from an EMC aspect.  This was something I saw at times 
when I was working at an NRTL.

Josh

From: itl-emc user group [mailto:itl...@itl.co.il]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:36 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] Testing to EN/IEC 60601-1-2

Hello,
Looking for opinions concerning testing to EN/IEC 60601-1-2.
Some customers want to perform partial testing only and for CE declare that 
their device meets the requirements of EN/IEC 60601-1-2.
As a test lab, we recommend full testing.
Any opinions.
Also some of our customers insist that Clause 5 Identification, marking and 
documents, should be part of the test report. Any opinions concerning this.
All responses welcome.

Regards,
David Shidlowsky | Technical Writer
Address 1 Bat-Sheva St. POB 87, LOD 71100 Israel
Tel 972-8-9186113 Fax 972-8-9153101
Mail e...@itl.co.il/dav...@itl.co.il  
Web www.itl.co.il

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Survey
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Re: [PSES] Curious Situation in Italian Customs

[Wiseman, Joshua E BIS]

Brian,

The French customs has been my thorn for the past 9 months or so.  It seems 
that every shipment gets held for some reason or another.  Our distributor 
actually setup a liaison 5km from the customs office because it has been so 
difficult.  We had issues with them demanding that general standards be used 
instead of product specific standards as well as not having test reports that 
included references to amendments that were published after the testing that 
did not pertain to our equipment.  In one case I had to get the 3rd party lab 
to write a letter on their letterhead that the standards and versions used were 
applicable for our equipment.  All of the equipment was shipped from the US so 
the China crackdown doesn’t even explain it.

In the end, it took a lot of explaining as well as a lot of hand holding with 
the forwarder and the distributor to clear up the issues.  We had one shipment 
returned to the US in late spring last year which we had to deal with, but it 
has been interesting and fortunately that was a onetime deal.  Now the liaison 
gathers all the documentation from us before the product leaves our door and 
presents it to customs upon arrival at the port.  While this is tedious we have 
not had any problems in 2-3 months.

Josh

From: Brian Ceresney [mailto:bceres...@delta-q.com]
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 1:12 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] Curious Situation in Italian Customs

Dear Compliance Professionals,

We currently have a product compliance situation in Italy, which I thought you 
all might find interesting.

Our customer has had a shipment of our battery charger products held by 
customs, on the premise that our CE documentation is not acceptable. The 
documentation we have provided includes our Delta-Q CE Self-Declaration, dated 
and signed, along with our official CB Test Report, and our EMC Test Report, 
(both issued by accredited organizations).

Our customer has been informed by the Customs officials that “a CE Declaration 
of Conformity MUST be issued by a European body”, and repeatedly use TUV as an 
example. They refuse to accept  our corporate declaration, and seem interested 
in the fact that the products are manufactured in China by Delta-Q.

My response will be to carefully explain the requirements to my customer(and 
customs) in written form, include all of the accreditation information I can 
obtain for both testing labs, and hope that these officials will understand.

Has anybody else been in a similarly sticky situation?


Best Regards,
Brian C.
Delta-Q Technologies Corp.

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[PSES] Approval Engineer Opening

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

I sent this a while back but never received the link to the posting.  We are 
still looking for candidates.

We at Taylor Company, http://www.taylor-company.com/, have begun a search for 
an additional Approval Engineer.  The official posting is on indeed.  
http://www.carriercareers.com/job_detail.asp?JobID=4129663

In any event we are looking for someone with experience with UL, CSA, IEC/EN 
standards.  Experience with NSF, EMC and/or gas appliance approvals is a plus 
but not necessary.  Any experience level is qualified despite what might be 
listed in the posting.

Josh

Taylor Company
+1 (815) 624-5628


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Re: [PSES] Critical Parts Lists

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Dave,

SAP can do just about anything with the right programmer.  Your best bet here 
is to talk with your IT group and let them know what you need.  There is a good 
chance they can do it for you, or contract someone who can.

Josh

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 10:53 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] Critical Parts Lists

Does anyone have any experience using SAP to help manage critical parts lists  
for the technical files?  We’re using SAP to manage BOMs, approved suppliers 
and approved parts so there is no issue in controlling the parts themselves for 
production.  But currently we record only OEM and OEM part number in SAP for 
each part.   Ideally I’d be able to flag parts as critical in SAP and store 
some basic details in SAP needed in the TF critical parts list like agency 
approvals or file numbers, maybe critical ratings so I can run a report on a 
product BOM and have it pull all the critical parts out and build the current 
critical parts list automatically.   I haven’t asked our IT folks if they have 
any idea on this yet.

-Dave

David P. Nyffenegger, PMP, SM-IEEE
Product Development Manager
Bell and Howell
3791 South Alston Avenue
Durham, NC 27713
Phone: 919.767.6419
Web: www.bellhowell.net
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Re: [PSES] LED Indicator Safety

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Brian,

I believe you are on the right track.  I have dealt with these standards on the 
periphery.  It is not a bad idea to have a copy and to read through them, it 
will take some help to test and possibly to understand everything though.

Josh

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 8:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] LED Indicator Safety

Greetings to all.

I'm being asked by Engineering regarding the brightness of a Green LED 
Indicator they want to use on the front of an upcoming product. The LED is 
quite bright and is used with a Light Pipe which shows through the front panel. 
However, if you remove to front panel to perform a maintenance operation while 
the unit is still turned on (which is desired) you can see the LED.

If you look directly at the LED it is bright and hurts to look at it for more 
than a second. However, you would have to deliberately look directly at it to 
receive the full brightness. At normal angles and distance the light causes no 
discomfort to look at it.

The IEC/EN/UL/CSA 61010-1 safety standard only includes information about UV 
light. The EUT is classified as Laboratory Equipment.

My Google research mentions the standard IEC 60825 and IEC 62471 and test 
method ANSI/IESNA RP-27. Would it be helpful to read these standards without 
having the test equipment to test it?

For visible light such as this isn't there a simple test method such uses a 
basic light meter to determine if a hazard exists or not?

Are LEDs classified by the manufacturer for their "Risk Group"? What Risk Group 
can I use and declare it not hazardous?

Sorry for being such a NUBE on this topic. I know this topic has been discussed 
in the past but I was hoping new LIGHT might have been shined on it recently 
with all the new super bright LEDs on the market.

Thanks in advance.

The Other Brian


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information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

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Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Will is correct.  I have gotten around this type of fan issue in the past by 
simply running the normal heating test with the fan disconnected.  If you can 
pass normal temperature rise limits without the fan then your argument becomes 
easier as the fan is no longer "critical", it is simply a design robustness 
feature at that point.

For the device to operate normally and to operate within the limits are not 
always the same.

Josh


-Original Message-
From: Brown,William [mailto:willbr...@tycoint.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

A locked rotor test is considered an abnormal and measured temperatures are 
allowed to exceed the limits for normal operation. If that happens, then it 
proves a minimal amount of airflow is required to maintain safe temperatures 
and minimal CFMs become required.

That said, I've never seen a CPU fan be the make or break for safe temperatures 
(except maybe a laptop). It is likely you have a (written or unwritten) 
standard operating procedure that states what must be called out for fans and 
an engineer that is either unwilling or unable to justify removing the 
requirement.

After all, it is hard to find a regulatory engineer that can do both.

-Will

William L Brown Jr.  /  Engineering Manager - Regulatory and Compliance /  Tyco 
Security Products
Tel: +1 978 577 4205  /  Mobile: +1 978 727 7069

6 Technology Park Drive /  Westford, MA 01886  /  USA willbr...@tycoint.com  /  
www.tycosecurityproducts.com/SocialMedia.aspx  /  www.tycosecurityproducts.com


Access Control, Video, Location-Based Tracking and Intrusion. UNIFIED.

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have not been waived.
.

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:55 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I agree the airflow rates will vary with applied voltage and blade profile but 
if the product continues to function "safely" with a stalled rotor why does it 
have to be listed in the critical component list.

Regards;

Ian McBurney
Design & Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com



-Original Message-
From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 13:31
To: McBurney, Ian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

Ian

I think the critical factor may be the airflow rates at the reduced voltages as 
this may well vary between various ostensibly similar fans of the same nominal 
voltage.

The actual airflow patterns from the outputs of the various fans may also 
differ due to differing blade profiles, etc.

Regards

John Allen
Compliance with Experience
W.London. UK

-Original Message-
From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: 13 December 2013 11:05
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

John;

I believe the fans are listed for the flammability of the plastic body but I 
may be wrong.

Ian McBurney
Design & Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: 13 December 2013 10:34
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message
<80f690de07894e049b221728b4a99...@dbxpr07mb206.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, "McBurney, Ian" 
writes:

>We have to use alternative fans due to supply issues and this incurs 
>considerable test agency costs as the agency won?t accept a 
>manufacturers range of fans without testing each one.

On what grounds are they re-testing when the fans are UL-listed?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] [External] Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Additionally, most agencies have a process to repeal or elevate a decision 
beyond the engineer that you are directly working with.

Josh

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:53 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Cooling fan safety query

In message

, dated Fri, 13 Dec 2013, "McBurney, Ian" 
writes:

>I have often asked for the reasoning to many similar problems and get 
>directed to an ambiguous clause in the standard that I read one way and 
>the agency reads the other way and because there is no independent 
>arbiter

You have to deal case-by-case; you may not win all arguments but you can win 
some. ***But there IS an arbiter***; the originating committee and that may 
well be accessible via members of this list.

So ask the crucial question!
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] [External] [PSES] "CE Marking" for wire and cable?

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Doug,

I was recently doing some searching for requirements for equipment being used 
in Marine applications and came across some chemical restriction requirements 
for wiring.  I believe what you might be seeing is CE marking according to the 
RoHS2 directive based on the info that I ran into.  It did not pertain to my 
quest at that time so I did not keep track of any of the sources for what I ran 
across.

Josh

From: Douglas Nix [mailto:d...@mac.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 11:12 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] "CE Marking" for wire and cable?

Colleagues,

For many years it was not possible to CE Mark wire and cable products because 
they did not meet the basic definitions for apparatus under the LVD. I am 
seeing increasing numbers of these products bearing CE Marks, and I don’t 
clearly understand the basis for this change in marking.

For reference, 2006/95/EC states in Article 1:

Article 1
For the purposes of this Directive, ‘electrical equipment’ means
any equipment designed for use with a voltage rating of between
50 and 1 000 V for alternating current and between 75 and
1 500 V for direct current, other than the equipment and
phenomena listed in Annex II.

Annex II
Equipment and Phenomena outside the Scope of this Directive

  *   Electrical equipment for use in an explosive atmosphere
  *   Electrical equipment for radiology and medical purposes
  *   Electrical parts for goods and passenger lifts
  *   Electricity meters
  *   Plugs and socket outlets for domestic use
  *   Electric fence controllers
  *   Radio-electrical interference
  *   Specialised electrical equipment, for use on ships, aircraft or railways, 
which complies with the safety provisions drawn up
  *   by international bodies in which the Member States participate.
No further definition of “electrical equipment" is found in the Directive. Note 
that wire and cable are not specifically excluded in Annex II.

Referring to the International Electrotechnical Vocabulary (IEV), IEC 
60050  was the next 
logical step in trying to understand what is covered. The IEV does not contain 
a definition for "electrical equipment", but defines “equipment" 
151-11-25:

equipment
single apparatus or set of devices or apparatuses, or the set of main devices 
of an installation, or all devices necessary to perform a specific task
Note – Examples of equipment are a power transformer, the equipment of a 
substation, measuring equipment.

“Apparatus” is defined 
151-11-22:

apparatus
device or assembly of devices which can be used as an independent unit for 
specific functions
Note – In English, the term "apparatus" sometimes implies use by skilled 
persons for professional purposes.

The definition for “device” is found at 
151-11-20:

device
material element or assembly of such elements intended to perform a required 
function
Note – A device may form part of a larger device.

Finally, the definition for a “component”, which does not appear in any of the 
preceding definitions, is found at 
151-11-21:

component
constituent part of a device which cannot be physically divided into smaller 
parts without losing its particular function

Based on these definitions, it seems clear to me that wire and cable constitute 
components, and are therefore not devices, apparatus or equipment and are 
therefore NOT subject to CE Marking. In addition to this, a quick search for 
Declarations of Conformity on a number of wire and cable web sites turned up NO 
DECLARATIONS.

With the withdrawal of much of the HD 21 and HD 22 series of harmonization 
documents and their replacement with the EN 50525 series of standards, will 
there be a change that requires the CE Marking of these products? If yes, what 
is the legal rationale, since the definition of apparatus under the LVD still 
does not seem to include these products?

>From the perspective of agencies assessing the compliance of products with the 
>LVD, what is the requirement regarding markings on wire and cable products 
>beyond the basic requirement for wire to be marked with the rated voltage and 
>gauge?

Thanks in advance for the assistance!

Doug Nix
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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be us

[PSES] Approval Engineer Opening

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

I have been asked to pass the word about this position.

We at Taylor Company, http://www.taylor-company.com/, have begun a search for 
an additional Approval Engineer.  The official posting is not on Monster or 
Careerbuilder yet, but it will be soon.

In any event we are looking for someone with experience with UL, CSA, IEC/EN 
standards.  Experience with NSF, EMC and/or gas appliance approvals is a plus 
but not necessary.  Any experience level is qualified.  The ideal candidate 
will have B.S. degree or equivalent experience.

This position is located in Rockton, IL which is near Rockford, IL and Beloit, 
WI.  For more info feel free to email me.

Josh

Taylor Company


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Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

I believe so.  “EC” is being replaced by “EU” in the directives.

Josh

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2013 7:34 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

Nice summary!!

Shouldn’t it be, “EU Declaration of Conformity….”?

The Other Brian

From: Douglas Nix [mailto:d...@mac.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

All,

Thanks for the feedback on this question. Everything fits with the guidance 
I’ve been giving my clients for many years. To summarize the thread:

EC Declarations:

- should be based on EN ISO 17050-1/-2

- should state “EC Declaration of Conformity” or “EC Declaration of 
Incorporation” as appropriate

- must include the relevant statements from the directives (i.e., "a sentence 
expressly declaring that the machinery fulfils all the relevant provisions of 
this Directive and where appropriate, a similar sentence declaring the 
conformity with other Directives and/or relevant provisions with which the 
machinery complies. These references must be those of the texts published in 
the Official Journal of the European Union;” and “ a sentence declaring which 
essential requirements of this Directive are applied and fulfilled and that the 
relevant technical documentation is compiled in accordance with part B of Annex 
VII, and, where appropriate, a sentence declaring the conformity of the partly 
completed machinery with other relevant Directives. These references must be 
those of the texts published in the Official Journal of the European Union;” - 
2006/42/EC Annex II)

- must carry a listing of the relevant directives

- may include the manufacturer’s logo, but use of letterhead is unclear

- must include the manufacturer’s information AND the EU Authorized 
Representative’s information

- should be included as a hardcopy with the shipping paperwork

- should be included in the product documentation

- may be made available through the WWW

- must include all of the relevant information as laid out in the Annexes to 
the relevant Directives.

If I’ve missed anything in this thread, please comment!

Regards,

Doug NIX, C.E.T.
email: d...@complianceinsight.ca
web: http://www.complianceinsight.ca/
blog: http://machinerysafety101.com

--
This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information.  If  
you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate,  
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received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message 
and its attachments to the sender and delete it from your files.

On 15-Nov-13, at 18:59, Chuck McDowell 
mailto:chu...@meyersound.com>> wrote:

I looked for a Directive (Citation in OJEU) and the standards used.

Directive 765/2008 setting out the requirements for accreditation and market 
surveillance relating to the marketing of Products was modified by Regulation 
(EC) No 1221/2009; This specifies (voluntary participation) using EN ISO/IEC 
17050-1:2010., -2:2010.

BSI has this listing:
BS EN ISO/IEC 17050-1:2010
replaced
BS EN ISO/IEC 17050-1:2004
replaced
BS EN 45014:1998

ISO has this listing:
ISO/IEC 17050-1:2004
Replacing
ISO/IEC Guide 22:1996

So I will need to order up the 2010 editions for the coming holidays.

Our DoC issue in 2002 was not signing them in Blue ink.

Chuck McDowell
Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc.


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:29 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

In message
<1d8b4eb0ebe341ff90686842f3f7d...@blupr02mb116.namprd02.prod.outlook.com>
, dated Thu, 14 Nov 2013, Brian Oconnell 
mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com>>
writes:

Is EN45014 still applicable?

It doesn't seem to have been withdrawn.

Is ISO17050-1,-2 the correct ref?

For Europe, not 'correct' unless it's been adopted by CEN/CENELEC as EN ISO 
17050... However, DoCs compliant with it would be accepted in most countries.

Another question - have been told by (Yet Another Import Authority)
that these standards represent the minimum required information, and
additional stuff not necessarily excluded. Comments?

Certainly true for EN 45014, which is a recommendation. But information deemed 
misleading would not be tolerated.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See 
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John 
Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 

Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

We used to provide them on request and that was pretty much it.  Recently I 
convinced our export group to include a copy with the shipping docs for every 
shipment that goes to the EU.  This seems to be reducing a lot of the questions 
(delays) we were having.

Josh


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 8:20 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

You are referring to the document as a "Manufacturer Declaration" where I would 
refer to it as an "EU Declaration of Conformity". I've seen declaration 
documents that say "Manufacturers Declaration", usually for components, but 
they are not official EU DoCs. Are you sure your rejection was because of the 
Letter Head or because of the Header on your document?

I am very interested in such stories as these because I'm not clear on the 
current required documentation or the Authority a Customs agent has regarding 
CE compliance, and the EU-DoC.

In your case specific, where did the Customs Agent get your DoC? Though I'm not 
familiar with all EU Declarations, I believe that shipping the DoC with the 
product, though becoming more common, is not a requirement. The MD, for 
instance, says the DoC OR a document calling out the contents of the DoC should 
be in the manual. But what Customs agent is going to rip open 12 layers of 
cardboard, vacuum seal, and plastic wrap to search through a 300 page manual? 
What if it is an E-Manual?

Do most people include the DoC with the shipping documentation, provide the DoC 
only when requested, or just include a copy in the box with each item? What is 
legally required? Though the CE Marking on the product is required I believe 
the EU-DoC just has to exist and be made available upon request. Since 
compliance is assumed, if an Authority requires to see your DoC isn't that a 
sign that the compliance of your product is in question for some reason? Do the 
authorities have to provide such a reason?

I know the EU is trying to stop counterfeit and non-compliant devices from 
entering which may be the reason for requiring the DoC in Customs among taking 
other such steps. So far, our company's products have not been burdened by 
these additional measures but I would like to be prepared for the future.

Thanks for listening to me.
The Other Brian


-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 5:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

Concur with Mr. Schmidt. While ISO17050-1,-2 does not require letterhead or 
company logo, am not aware of anything that would disallow. Would think that 
anything on the declaration that serves to further identify the manufacturer 
would be encouraged.

But more than once, have received conflicting directions from various import 
'authorities' across the EU; so am not surprised, and has not "strained 
credibility" for me.

Brian

From: Mark Schmidt [mailto:mark.schm...@dornerworks.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 1:44 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

Hi Doug,

My thoughts are that typically company letterhead would display the corporate 
logo/brand, their address and phone. Since your client used the UK based office 
letterhead this would be very relevant in meeting the requirements of DoC. As 
you indicated as long as critical information wasn't missing you would think 
that this approach would be acceptable.

Regards,
Mark Schmidt

From: Douglas Nix [mailto:d...@mac.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

Colleagues,

I had a client relate a story to me today that strained credibility, but may be 
true. I hope to hear your thoughts and experiences on this topic.

We were discussing manufacturer's Declarations of Conformity. I made the 
statement that the EC Declaration should be on the manufacturer's letterhead. 
My client indicated that they had originally done that, issuing their 
declarations on the letterhead of their UK-based office. They then claimed that 
customs inspectors in Poland and Turkey had rejected their declarations because 
they were on their letterhead.

I have never heard of this, and certainly know of no legislation that would 
support rejecting a manufacturer's declaration on this basis. I can believe 
that the declarations were rejected because they were missing critical 
information, or were incomplete in some other way.

What are your experiences? Have you had declarations rejected by customs or by 
customs brokers in any EU member state for the same, or a similar reason? What 
was the resolution for you?

Doug NIX, C.E.T.
Compliance InSight Consulting Inc.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safet

Re: [PSES] [External] Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

The customs in Poland and Turkey has historically been tough to work with for 
us.  Both countries ask for items above and beyond the minimum requirements.  I 
have a folder set up for each country just waiting for the call from our 
importer that they are asking one of the several questions that come up.

The question I would have is whether the DoC was rejected because the original 
manufacturer was not listed.  I recently rewrote our DoC's and in checking the 
requirements of the directives to make sure I got everything I needed I noticed 
that 2 addresses are required on my DoC.  We design and manufacture in the USA 
so our name and address is required and our office in the EU is required as our 
local representative.  So, I used our letterhead that includes both addresses.

Josh

-Original Message-
From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:42 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

All,

It is interesting that both Turkey and Poland were mentioned, these are to my 
knowledge not full members of the European community.  Could they be nearing 
full membership and over-exercising due diligence?  It is possible they want to 
see a "certificate" with all the page border filigree.  Also possible the 
inspector training manual had an example and their expectation is all DoC 
should look like this example.

I have used EN 45014 as a guidance document and I believe the standard even 
indicates something to this effect, it is guidance.  I do not remember if it is 
mentioned in the context of the CE marking Directive and it is not listed in 
the harmonized standards.  I mainly used it to pull the minimum list of items 
that must be included.  In the early days of CE marking (circa
1995-1997) there was a lot of fraud and the prevailing wisdom was to use 
company letter head on bond paper and not photocopies.

thanks, –doug

Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:05 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Rejected Manufacturer Declarations

In message , dated Thu, 14 Nov 
2013, Douglas Nix  writes:

> They then claimed that customs inspectors in Poland and Turkey had 
> rejected their declarations because they were on their letterhead

There is a recommended format for European DoCs, EN 45014, and it doesn't 
include the manufacturer's letterhead. However, harmless deviations are 
disregarded in many countries.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex 
silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Lis

Re: [PSES] [External] Re: [PSES] Standards Dates

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

This is another common dilemma when dealing with standards that use part 2’s.

Josh

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 10:18 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Standards Dates

There is an additional wrinkle. Although the 3rd edition of 61010-1 is 
available in North American at some NRTLs. There are virtually no Part 2 
standards available to go with it. Technically you cannot use a Part 2 intended 
for edition 2 with edition 3.   The committees are now under the gun to catch 
up.

 - doug

Douglas Powell
www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01<http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01>


Sent from my BlackBerry Z10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
From: Kunde, Brian
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 8:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Reply To: Kunde, Brian
Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards Dates


Very good explanation. Thank you very much.
The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On 
Behalf Of Wiseman, Joshua E
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 10:36 AM
To: Boštjan Glavič; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [BULK] RE: [PSES] Standards Dates
Importance: Low

This falls into a unique area of the NRTL program. If a standard is not listed 
in the scope of the NRTL program than any NRTL can issue approvals to that 
standard because the approval/certification mark is owned by the NRTL. With 
that said, if/when a standard is added to the NRTL scope (usually by request of 
an NRTL) then only those NRTL's with that standard in their NRTL scope can 
issue approvals to that standard.

This posed a very unique situation for the 3rd Ed of 60601-1. OSHA did not want 
to add the standard to the NRTL scope because of the Risk Management 
requirements that were added to the standard. Health Canada and the EU had 
already set dates but it was not added to the NRTL standards list. So, some 
NRTL's decided to start issuing NRTL approvals to the ANSI/AMEE standard which 
is acceptable.

So, it is wise to keep up to date with the NRTL standards list as well as the 
specific NRTL's scope. Here is a link that will help you do so. 
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/index.html

Josh


-Original Message-
From: Boštjan Glavič [mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 9:06 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Standards Dates

Brian,

Are you sure? I have heard that CSA and UL are able to issue NRTL according to 
3 rd Ed.

We are just in process for applying 2 projects according to 3rd Ed to CSA.

Best regards,
Bostjan
SIQ
On 12. avg. 2013, at 15:03, "Kunde, Brian" 
mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>> wrote:

> Regarding UL 61010-1 3rd Ed., how will we know when we can start using this 
> new standard? We currently use the 3rd Ed. for Europe because it becomes 
> mandatory in October, but our NRTL says we cannot use the 3rd Ed. in North 
> America yet. How will we know when we can?
>
> You are correct. It is very frustrating having to work with two different 
> versions of the same base standard for different markets. It more than 
> doubles our work load adding more cost and overhead to our products.
>
> The Other Brian
>
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] 
> On Behalf Of Pete
> Perkins
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 2:12 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
> Cc: 'Scott Douglas'
> Subject: RE: [PSES] Standards Dates
>
> Scott, et al,
>
> The cessation date is more flexible in the US than in Europe.
>
> UL has a Continuing Certification Program which has been in place for some 
> time which can be applied to certified products approved in the past.
>
> For instance, UL recently announced that this CCP will apply to
> 61010 products which were certified under the 1st ed of the standard such 
> that those certified products may continue to be UL marked as long as no 
> changes are made in the construction as described in the UL Report. Any 
> changes, of course, force the evaluation the entire product to the newer 
> standard; this can especially become a problem when, thru no fault f the 
> product manufacturer, critical components disappear at end-of-mfg-life and 
> substitutions need to be made.
>
> The decision to use this program seems to be on a standard-by-standard basis 
> and is up to the UL STP responsible for the standard. All the STP 
> stakeholders have an opportunity to affect the decision to use (or not use) 
> the CCProgram so all interests ought to be served.
>
> This approach does not negate the EN appro

Re: [PSES] Standards Dates

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

This falls into a unique area of the NRTL program.  If a standard is not listed 
in the scope of the NRTL program than any NRTL can issue approvals to that 
standard because the approval/certification mark is owned by the NRTL.  With 
that said, if/when a standard is added to the NRTL scope (usually by request of 
an NRTL) then only those NRTL's with that standard in their NRTL scope can 
issue approvals to that standard.

This posed a very unique situation for the 3rd Ed of 60601-1.  OSHA did not 
want to add the standard to the NRTL scope because of the Risk Management 
requirements that were added to the standard.  Health Canada and the EU had 
already set dates but it was not added to the NRTL standards list.  So, some 
NRTL's decided to start issuing NRTL approvals to the ANSI/AMEE standard which 
is acceptable.

So, it is wise to keep up to date with the NRTL standards list as well as the 
specific NRTL's scope.  Here is a link that will help you do so.  
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/index.html

Josh


-Original Message-
From: Boštjan Glavič [mailto:bostjan.gla...@siq.si] 
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 9:06 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] Re: [PSES] Standards Dates

Brian,

Are you sure? I have heard that CSA and UL are able to issue NRTL according to 
3 rd Ed.

We are just in process for applying 2 projects according to 3rd Ed to CSA.

Best regards,
Bostjan
SIQ
On 12. avg. 2013, at 15:03, "Kunde, Brian"  wrote:

> Regarding UL 61010-1 3rd Ed., how will we know when we can start using this 
> new standard? We currently use the 3rd Ed. for Europe because it becomes 
> mandatory in October, but our NRTL says we cannot use the 3rd Ed. in North 
> America yet. How will we know when we can?
> 
> You are correct. It is very frustrating having to work with two different 
> versions of the same base standard for different markets. It more than 
> doubles our work load adding more cost and overhead to our products.
> 
> The Other Brian
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Pete 
> Perkins
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 2:12 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Cc: 'Scott Douglas'
> Subject: RE: [PSES] Standards Dates
> 
> Scott, et al,
> 
>The cessation date is more flexible in the US than in Europe.
> 
>UL has a Continuing Certification Program which has been in place for 
> some time which can be applied to certified products approved in the past.
> 
>For instance, UL recently announced that this CCP will apply to
> 61010 products which were certified under the 1st ed of the standard such 
> that those certified products may continue to be UL marked as long as no 
> changes are made in the construction as described in the UL Report.  Any 
> changes, of course, force the evaluation the entire product to the newer 
> standard; this can especially become a problem when, thru no fault f the 
> product manufacturer, critical components disappear at end-of-mfg-life and 
> substitutions need to be made.
> 
>The decision to use this program seems to be on a standard-by-standard 
> basis and is up to the UL STP responsible for the standard.  All the STP 
> stakeholders have an opportunity to affect the decision to use (or not use) 
> the CCProgram so all interests ought to be served.
> 
>This approach does not negate the EN approach to having 
> definite cessation dates (DOCOPOSS, as John W always points out - 
> thank you very much
> John) and will be a point of confusion & frustration for manufacturers who 
> work to serve a worldwide market with a single product.
> 
>You should be able to determine if this is applicable in your case by 
> inquiry into the STP for your standard.
> 
> :>) br, Pete
> 
> Peter E Perkins, PE
> Principal Product Safety Engineer
> PO Box 23427
> Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
> 
> 503/452-1201 fone/fax
> p.perk...@ieee.org
> 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
> e-mail to 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas  Mike Cantwell 
> 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
> 
> 
> LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
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Re: [PSES] Which Standard??

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

The safety standard for microwaves is IEC/EN 60335-1 and IEC/EN 60335-2-25 or 
IEC/EN 60335-2-90 for Commercial microwaves.  I agree with John on the use of 
EN 55011 due to the use of RF by the device.

Josh

From: Price, Andrew (Selex ES, UK) [mailto:andrew.p.pr...@selex-es.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 2:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [External] [PSES] Which Standard??

Hi all

Can anyone advise?
Is there a Harmonised Standard for Microwave Ovens apart from 55014 for 
Household Appliances??

Regards
Andy

Andrew P. Price
Principle Environmental Engineer, (EMC Specialist)
SELEX ES, A Finmeccanica Company
Sigma House
Basildon
Essex
SS14 3EL

•   Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
•Mobile : +44 (0)7507 854888

email :  andrew.p.pr...@selex-es.com
www.selexgalileo.com

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.



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3EL
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[PSES] Flicker help

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

A little background first.  I am testing single phase commercial soft serve ice 
cream machine similar to what you might find at a fast food restaurant or a 
local ice cream vendor.  The unit normally draws less than 1A of current until 
the compressor and motors turn on, at that point the current draw is about 14A. 
 This happens about every 10 minutes if product is not being drawn from the 
machine.  If ice cream cones and shakes are being drawn at a rate of 1-2 a 
minute all of the motors will run continuously.  So, with that said I have been 
running the machine in the "idol" state with no product being drawn as this 
would be the typical mode during the slow times in the normal installed 
location.

With this type of machine I have been referring to A.14 of IEC 61000-3-3 for 
the test criteria.  There are a couple of items in A.14 that don't seem to be 
very clear.  First, the 3rd dashed item under a) says to measure dmax 24 times 
in accordance with Annex B, but if the 1st measurement is > +/- 10% of the dmax 
referenced in Clause 5 then only 1 measurement is required.  If the result is 
higher than that of Clause 5 isn't it a failure?

Second, the last note in A.14 says that Pst and Plt are to be determined 
analytically.  As I have done the calculations don't seem to be very different 
from the measured values (as long as the source is stiff enough to handle the 
inrush.)  It does not seem to adjust the limits at all.  Am I seeing this 
correctly?

Third, the equation (5) in Clause 4.2.3.1 calls for the dmax value.  Since dmax 
is a percentage should the value be entered as 4 or 0.04 if the dmax value is 
4%?

In all of this it seems that A.14 gives the impression that there is some 
understanding that EUT's with compressors will have difficulties complying with 
the standard but it doesn't appear that there is any slack given in the limits, 
only that you have a modified route to show compliance.  Is there something 
that I am missing here??

Also, I did try using the method described in b) of A.14, it gave worse 
results.  Locked rotor current for compressors is extremely high, for the one I 
calculated the locked rotor current is 60A and I used an assumed PF of 0.8.

All comments are appreciated, I have been struggling through this one for a 
little while now.

Regards,
Josh


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Re: [PSES] UL 1699B where art thou

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Not all of UL is Not-For-Profit.  The UL organization started creating the 
different business units as profit driven organizations some time ago.  A 
couple years ago there was rumor of them dropping the Not-For-Profit moniker.  
I am not sure what happened with that.

Josh

-Original Message-
From: Brian Oconnell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 6:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL 1699B where art thou

Subject Outlines are being sold!? 

Shall I compose an ode to the wonders of Not-For-Profit organizations?

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Aldous, Scott
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 4:05 PM
To: oconne...@tamuracorp.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: UL 1699B where art thou

UL 1699B, the outline of investigation, is indeed available for general 
purchase. I bought a copy. My company is not a UL client nor are we on the STP. 
Maybe I misunderstood you.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com

1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 5:00 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: UL 1699B where art thou

1669B is not a standard and has not been released - it was issued as an outline 
on 29Apr2011 is not available for general purchase, and a bulletin was issued 
May2011. Both are available for free to UL clients having an Standards 
Certification Customer Library account or to STP members.

this outline just sits there,
 the computer screen that glares.
 it mocks me,
 it taunts me.
my eyes squint into the far-away,
 pixels for beads of darkness,
 that is this outline. 
and yet, I wait. 
I will wait for the standard.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Aldous, Scott [mailto:scott.ald...@aei.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:21 PM
To: oconne...@tamuracorp.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: UL 1699B where art thou

UL1699B is published and available for purchase. You can search for it on 
www.comm-2000.com. Make sure you select "UL Outlines" when you search on it.

Scott Aldous
Compliance Engineer
AE Solar Energy

  +1.970.492.2065 Direct
  +1.970.407.5872 Fax
  +1.541.312.3832 Main
scott.ald...@aei.com


1625 Sharp Point Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80525

www.advanced-energy.com/solarenergy

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 3:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: UL 1699B where art thou

Anyone on the 1699 STP?

Am attempting to determine status of UL1699B. Silence since approx May 2011, 
and next NEC will probably include both serial and parallel arc detect in 
article 690.

And as typical, the assigned engineer from a well-known 'non-profit'
organization will not answer any questions.

thanks,
Brian

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Re: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Is that an European or African swallow?

Josh

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:41 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier

Yes, but what is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Oconnell
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier

Excellent point. And it (not the elderberry smell) was used at a PSES symposium 
session as one of the reasons to fire the conformity assessment body.

There may be a time when the assessor is intractable and will offer only vague 
hand waves in lieu of any rationale. But first talk to a technical authority at 
the agency to verify that the requirement is capricious.

"Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries."
  -- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Peter Tarver
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] VTM-2 Rated Film - Proper Electrical Barrier

> From: Brian Oconnell
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 15:28
>
> OHSA allows the recognized lab use of 'engineering judgment' and 
> reference to corporate policy for acceptance or rejection of 
> construction. And various instances of adjudication have allowed 
> internal lab 'policy' that would be in addition to, or in lieu of, a 
> normative reference from an ANSI safety standard.

None of this effects the need for explanation, even if it's, "you're father 
smells of elderberries."

There has to be a rationale even for a policy.  Denial of sound engineering 
rationale casts a pall on the reputation of an NRTL and would be reason to move 
on.

If the product is not intended exclusively for the workplace, OSHA's opinion is 
of no account.

During prior employment, I applied similar to the stated OSHA position to a 
coffee percolator.  The device would not heat up enough to allow normal 
operation (or to even warm water).  The customer was told that the 
certification service would not be forthcoming, but I had to explain why.

Whether it's considered a matter of fairness or a response to contracted 
services, some explanation is needed.


Peter Tarver

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mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

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Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Now it is a little more work than that.  Last one I was involved in we did a 
quick and dirty temperature test, dielectric, ground bond and visual inspection 
to ensure proper fusing, the power switch breaks line, PE is green 
yellow/green, etc.  The inspection takes about 2 hrs then the report is a short 
report that goes with it.  This inspection is called a Special Inspection and 
it is performed to SPE-1000, we would also include portions of the product 
standard for limits and construction requirements.  Not sure if this is the 
same as the Hydro inspection but it sounds like it could be.

Josh

From: McInturff, Gary [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 4:19 PM
To: Wiseman, Joshua E; 'EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG'
Subject: RE: Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?

Hydro – inspections I believe they are called. It’s been awhile, but commercial 
businesses etc were awfully careful about making certain there were 
certifications marks on equipment before they were turned on. I had to make a 
few trips into Canada for trade shows on equipment that had complete the 
process. The hotel’s that trade shows were being held at would not allow us to 
even move the equipment to the show floor without the hydro authority 
inspections, and paperwork. It wasn’t a very detailed inspection, about I all I 
can remember is making sure there was a ground connection and that the power 
switch was on the hot side of the outlet. It only took about an hour and I 
don’t really know what the inspector did other than those two tests. This was 
many years ago so maybe they’ve changed except I still see references to Hydro 
Authority inspections. Last point the inspection was provincial only, move the 
same equipment with the hydro sticker on it to another province and it required 
a new inspection.

Was all that bad. Lots of slack time and I still wish I could get some Ontario 
Smoke meat – it was pretty tasty

Gary

From: Wiseman, Joshua E [mailto:joshua.e.wise...@carrier.utc.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 1:46 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?

Jim,

Yes, I don’t remember what code or regulation this is stated in, but when I was 
working at an NRTL occasionally we would have a customer asking how to get 
items through customs because it was not approved.  Canada has a Special 
Inspection program that is similar to field evaluations in the US and it is 
fairly well regulated by the SCC.  There are many manufacturers who ship 
products in to the country and get away with it, but occasionally customs will 
stop shipments until you can provide evidence of compliance or have a special 
inspection performed.

Josh

From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 3:35 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?

In the U.S., there are OSHA regulations that require electrical apparatus used 
in the workplace be certified to U.S. standards by one of OSHA’s Nationally 
Recognized Test Laboratories (NRTL’s).  Is there a similar regulation in Canada 
that requires electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified by one of 
the Standards Council of Canada approved test laboratories to Canadian 
standards?
Jim Hulbert
Pitney Bowes



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form

Re: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Jim,

Yes, I don’t remember what code or regulation this is stated in, but when I was 
working at an NRTL occasionally we would have a customer asking how to get 
items through customs because it was not approved.  Canada has a Special 
Inspection program that is similar to field evaluations in the US and it is 
fairly well regulated by the SCC.  There are many manufacturers who ship 
products in to the country and get away with it, but occasionally customs will 
stop shipments until you can provide evidence of compliance or have a special 
inspection performed.

Josh

From: Jim Hulbert [mailto:jim.hulb...@pb.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 3:35 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Are Product Safety Certifications Mandatory in Canada?

In the U.S., there are OSHA regulations that require electrical apparatus used 
in the workplace be certified to U.S. standards by one of OSHA’s Nationally 
Recognized Test Laboratories (NRTL’s).  Is there a similar regulation in Canada 
that requires electrical apparatus used in the workplace be certified by one of 
the Standards Council of Canada approved test laboratories to Canadian 
standards?
Jim Hulbert
Pitney Bowes



-


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Re: [PSES] Gaming equipment Slot machines - Standard?

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Gary,

60335 does not specify EMC standards directly.  Clause 19 has reference to some 
EMC testing for some conditions.  Most people who use 60335 series standards 
apply 55014-1, -2 for EMC.

Regards,
Josh

Taylor Company
A division of Carrier Commercial Refrigeration, Inc

From: McInturff, Gary [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:17 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Gaming equipment Slot machines - Standard?

Thanks John.
Just for those still following this thread. The research boils down to two 
approvals. In the US it would be UL 22 for the rest of the world (well EU and 
Canada) it would be the 60335-1, and 60335-2-85, at least for safety. Without 
60335 in my hands I don’t know if it specifies and EMC standard. I’m looking 
into that.
Just FYI part of the research, after calling both UL and CSA, then I took a 
look at both UL and CSA’s data bases for amusement games, video slot machines 
etc, and noting that a very large player in this market has certifications just 
as described above, UL22 and 60335.
Looks like I’m stuck still doing it twice – self certifying to the CE mark 
isn’t an option in this case.
I’m getting the standards (once the PO goes through hoops) but in the meantime 
can anyone tell me if 60035 series addresses an EMC standard?

Gary

From: John Cotman [mailto:john.cot...@conformance.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 8:18 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Gaming equipment Slot machines - Standard?

If you look at how 60335-1 defines “household and similar”, it’s much wider 
than just things used in the home, covering products used by non-expert people 
in shops, offices and the like.

John C


From: McInturff, Gary [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com]
Sent: 23 October 2012 19:11
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Gaming equipment Slot machines - Standard?

Thanks all. Consensus is running on 60335-2-82 (and 60335-1). I had looked at 
that but the title mentioned household – but as Ted pointed out the note below 
says “not” typically found in homes I read that the opposite the first time.
Thanks

Gary

From: jral...@productsafetyinc.com 
[mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:51 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Gaming equipment Slot machines - Standard?

Yep, sorry.  I was wrong we used 60335-2-82 also.

From: Knudsen, Patricia [mailto:patricia.knud...@teradata.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:36 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Gaming equipment Slot machines - Standard?

IEC 60335-2-82, Household and similar electrical appliances - Safety - Part 
2-82: Particular requirements for amusement machines and personal service 
machines

Examples of amusement machines that are within the scope of this standard are 
billiard tables; bowling machines; dartboards; driving simulators; gaming 
machines; kiddie rides; laser shooting appliances; pinball machines; video 
games. Examples of personal service machines that are within the scope of the 
standard are card re-value machines; currency dispensers; luggage lockers; 
weighing machines; shoe shining appliances.


Patty Knudsen
Product Safety Engineering
17095 Via del Campo
San Diego, CA  92127
858-485-3748

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From: McInturff, Gary [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Gaming equipment Slot machines - Standard?

I think UL 22 covers it in the US but does anybody have a clue for EU?
Thanks

Gary McInturff
Reliability/Compliance Engineer








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Re: [PSES] Light curtains

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Derek,

You might check EN 61508 and whatever ISO standard is referenced for Risk 
Assessment.  My guess is it will depend on the risk and the severity of that 
risk that you are trying to avoid.

Regards,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Taylor Company
A division of Carrier Commercial Refrigeration, Inc

From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 5:55 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Light curtains

Hi All,

I'm faced with helping a friend work through an OSHA finding that requires the 
fitting of light curtains on several machines in a metal fab shop. Several of 
these machines were never designed to have light curtains, but OSHA wants them.

So... Can anyone point me to resources specifically regarding what the machine 
should do if the light curtain is activated by a hand etc. Is terminating power 
to anything making movement happen sufficient?

I hope this is not off the list topic list.

Thanks,

Derek Walton
L F Research.
-


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Re: [PSES] AAMI version of 60601-1 3rd ed - requirement for SI Units

[Wiseman, Joshua E]

Carl,

What if it is addressed in your RMF?  Considering it is ANSI/AAMI instead of 
IEC/EN, and the intended market, I would think this would be an area you could 
use the RMF and address it that way.  If needed you could possible address this 
using Clause 4.5 (although, this might be a bit of a stretch here.)  I would 
also check with your NB or safety lab that you use and see what they have to 
say.

Regards,
Josh

Joshua Wiseman
Taylor Company
A division of Carrier Commercial Refrigeration, Inc

From: Carl Newton [mailto:emcl...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] AAMI version of 60601-1 3rd ed - requirement for SI Units

Group,

Does anyone have experience with the AAMI version of 60601-1, 3rd edition and 
clause 7.4.3?  This clause requires that measurement parameters be in SI units. 
I'm working on a therapeutic exercise device which requires patients to enter 
weight as a step in the setup process.  American patients will be befuddled if 
required to enter kg.  Anyone aware of a loophole?  I'm working with the EN 
edition.

Thanks,

Carl
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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