RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts?
It is not a redundant captive device. Scott --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Aldous, Scott scott.ald...@aei.com wrote: From: Aldous, Scott scott.ald...@aei.com Subject: RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts? To: Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 12:08 PM Hi Brian, When I worked for UL, I had heard that the use of wire nuts was not acceptable for the EU (CE Marking), but I don’t recall ever seeing the source of this alleged requirement. I have a vague recollection about them not having any type of international certifications, but I’m not sure about that. There is a book, CE Marking Handbook: A Practical Approach to Global Safety Certification, by David Lohbeck, published in 1998, which covers this, but not in depth. You can preview the book on Google. On page 119, that book indicates that “U.S. wire-nuts are not permitted for wire connections.” I don’t believe the source of this statement is provided, and it well may just be the opinion of the author. Scott Aldous Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Tel: 970-407-6872 Fax: 970-407-5872 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:39 AM To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts? Hello Brian, Off hand, I am unaware of anything preventing the use of a twist-on wire connector in portable equipment, but that doesn’t mean that the prohibition doesn’t exist. Other list members may know of specific cases where the connectors are prohibited. However, the description of the connector covered in electrical tape indicates that the connector is likely used outside of its UL Listing (if it is even a Listed connector.) First, let me state that “Wire-Nut” is a registered trademark of Ideal Industries. If you are looking for information in standards, the term “twist-on wire connector” will be used. Vibration during use is probably not the main issue. There are many types of fixed equipment, such as an air conditioner or other motor driven appliance, where twist-on connectors are used and they are subject to regular vibration. The connectors may see more vibration in these applications than they might see in some portable appliances. However, your description gives me cause to be concerned. UL does List twist-on connectors under category code ZMVV and they have been around for quite a while. (Ideal’s UL file number is E5238 and that should give you an idea as to the age of the product.) The connectors’ Listing does have some very specific requirements. Specific size connectors are Listed only for use with specific wire sizes and types. The installation instructions must be followed closely. Some of the wire connectors specify that you should not twist the wires first. The twisting of the wire connector will twist the wires to make the proper connection. If you see a connector covered with black tape, there is likely a problem. The tape is typically used when there is a concern that the connector will come loose. This is done based on the installer’s experience. If they have had connectors come loose, it is because they are likely using them incorrectly. The tape does not fix anything. Electrical tape will not likely withstand the test of time and the adhesive will degrade. Cheap electrical tape rarely lasts long at all. There are numerous crimp connectors suitable for connecting wires. There are but splices and crimp connectors designed to perform the same purpose as a twist-on connector. The crimp connectors make a good, permanent splice. The twist-on connector is intended for use where connections are made in the field, particularly where they may need to be undone for servicing. Crimp connections and terminal blocks are better options for factory connections. Ted Eckert Compliance Engineer Microsoft Corporation ted.eck...@microsoft.com The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 6:18 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: What's the deal with Wire Nuts? Greetings Experts. This should be an easy one for those who know the answer. What is the deal with Wire Nuts? Where can be they be used, where can’t they be used? Are there different rules for permanently
RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts?
Hello Other Brian, That is a term I have heard from years gone by. A standard does not specifically prohibit them however if you look at IEC 60950 para 3.1.9 it would be difficult to use wire nut that met the requirements of two independent fixings. Most EU standards have a similar discription as well. Best Regards, Scott --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com wrote: From: Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com Subject: RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts? To: sbarro...@yahoo.com, Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, Aldous, Scott scott.ald...@aei.com Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 2:31 PM Where does the term, “Redundant Captive Device” come from? The device which has the wire nuts (twist-on wire connectors) is a water chiller used as a peripheral for a piece of laboratory equipment to be sold internationally. The manufacturer is not used to making laboratory equipment, but industrial cooling devices in the US where it maybe acceptable to use wire nuts. Looking at the IEC/EN 61010-1 standard I cannot see any specific requirement for redundant captive device or redundant connection. I do see a statement in 10.5.3b regarding “insulation which supports the TERMINALS shall be made of material that will not soften” due to dissipated heat from current through the connection. I assume that if the plastic cap of a wire nut gets hot from current passing through the connection and softens then the connection will become loose. Some wire nuts are all plastic and the larger ones have a copper spring inside. In either case, it is the plastic that secures the connection. On a crimp type connection (such as a spade lug or crimp splice), even though they have a plastic case, the electrical connection is made from a metal part which is not likely to soften. It would be nice if there was a clear statement (chapter and verse) documenting if wire nuts can be used in Europe or not or some kind of interpretation letter. The Other Brian From: scott barrows [mailto:sbarro...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:26 PM To: Ted Eckert; Kunde, Brian ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG; Aldous, Scott Subject: RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts? It is not a redundant captive device. Scott --- On Mon, 11/17/08, Aldous, Scott scott.ald...@aei.com wrote: From: Aldous, Scott scott.ald...@aei.com Subject: RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts? To: Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: Monday, November 17, 2008, 12:08 PM Hi Brian, When I worked for UL, I had heard that the use of wire nuts was not acceptable for the EU (CE Marking), but I don’t recall ever seeing the source of this alleged requirement. I have a vague recollection about them not having any type of international certifications, but I’m not sure about that. There is a book, CE Marking Handbook: A Practical Approach to Global Safety Certification, by David Lohbeck, published in 1998, which covers this, but not in depth. You can preview the book on Google. On page 119, that book indicates that “ U.S. wire-nuts are not permitted for wire connections.” I don’t believe the source of this statement is provided, and it well may just be the opinion of the author. Scott Aldous Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Tel: 970-407-6872 Fax: 970-407-5872 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:39 AM To: Kunde, Brian ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: What's the deal with Wire Nuts? Hello Brian, Off hand, I am unaware of anything preventing the use of a twist-on wire connector in portable equipment, but that doesn’t mean that the prohibition doesn’t exist. Other list members may know of specific cases where the connectors are prohibited. However, the description of the connector covered in electrical tape indicates that the connector is likely used outside of its UL Listing (if it is even a Listed connector.) First, let me state that “Wire-Nut” is a registered trademark of Ideal Industries. If you are looking for information in standards, the term “twist-on wire connector” will be used. Vibration during use is probably not the main issue. There are many types of fixed equipment, such as an air conditioner or other motor driven appliance, where twist-on connectors are used and they are subject to regular vibration. The connectors may see more vibration in these applications than they might see in some portable appliances. However, your description gives me cause to be concerned. UL does List
Re: NARTE questions
Hi All, About 20 years ago when the Product Safety Society was formed, one of the first goals was to have a certification program for Safety Engineers. At that time there was not a certification program for EMC compliance people either. This was a strong enough goal that it has been the stated goal of each of the groups I have belonged to in the following years. Will it help us get hired, Look good on the resume, these are all long term benefits that have been envisioned, including providing a baseline for training and competence; but let us not forget that Rich Pescatore and John McCain and Kathy Toy and John Bertaland and Bob Hunter and more people then I can remember thought this was a good idea when Safety Compliance might have been a bit more involved. This is not something that just occurred as a good marketing and moneymaking enterprise for NARTE. And also, lest anyone forget, Thank you Gregg!!! Scott - Original Message - From: Georgerian, Richard mailto:rgeorger...@carrieraccess.com To: 'EMC PSTC' mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 10:06 AM Subject: RE: NARTE questions Greetings All, Only time will tell if being a NARTE certified product safety engineer will have an impact in the profession. I just got my certificate yesterday. In the long run, I think it'll help, but we have to start somewhere. Hopefully, having this type of program will start a process to which people expect a certain level of knowledge on product safety. Something analogous to someone having a bachelors, masters or Ph.D. There is a certain level of knowledge that one expects when someone has these degrees. (It is only a general statement and I am sure there are plenty of knowledgeable people who do not have degrees, that a smarter than those who do.) Good luck to all those who apply. Richard = Richard Georgerian Compliance Engineer Carrier Access Corporation 5395 Pearl Parkway Boulder, CO 80301 USA Tele: 303-218-5748 Fax: 303-218-5503 mailto:rgeorger...@carrieraccess.com From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:boconn...@t-yuden.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 3:58 PM To: 'EMC PSTC' Subject: NARTE questions Good People I have downloaded the Product Safety Certification Application package from NARTE. Is this a certification that hiring managers recognize? Is it anticipated that managers and/or hiring speacilists will come to recognized this certification as significant? Also, is there any relationship between NARTE and the IECEE? Thanks much for advice and opinion. R/S, Brian O'Connell Taiyo Yuden (USA), Inc * This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution, or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving them in any manner. Thank you. *
Re: Number of Terminations on a Ground Stud?
I think you might refer to IEC 60950 para 2.6.4.2 for the connection of the PE. Table 3E will probably be used to govern how many you can have on a stud. Scott - Original Message - From: Fred Townsend mailto:f...@dctolight.net To: Momcilovic, Nick mailto:nick.momcilo...@qtiworld.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 12:47 PM Subject: Re: Number of Terminations on a Ground Stud? Are we talking about electrical circuits or electronic? If we are talking electrical there may be some concerns about current capacity that would limit the number. If we are talking electronic circuits returning all ground circuits to a common ground point is a considered good design practice. Fred Townsend Momcilovic, Nick wrote: Is anyone familiar with any requirement that limits the number of ground terminations on a single stud? I heard that the limit is two per stud but I was not able to confirm this with any of the standards we have. Thanks in advance for your help. Sincerely, Nick Momcilovic Product Safety Quad/Tech, Inc. A Subsidiary of Quad/Graphics Sussex, Wisconsin 414-566-7915 phone 414-566-9576 fax nick.momcilo...@qtiworld.com www.qtiworld.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: NARTE safety engineer certification
Hi Pete, Funny you should mention that - It has been a year since this was decided and getting info is like pulling teeth. I have yet to hear back from this latest ad also. Website was cool!! Scott - Original Message - From: Peter L. Tarver mailto:peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com To: 'emc-pstc' mailto:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 9:03 AM Subject: NARTE safety engineer certification Out of curiosity, I wrote NARTE directly regarding the below, to see what benefit they believe NARTE certification would offer someone who already has experience in product safety and a PE Registration. It's been a week and they have not responded. Perhaps that's their answer. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com From: gr...@test4safety.com Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 2:48 PM It's also worth noting that NARTE will begin the Grandfathering phase for their Certified Product Safety Engineer/Technician award: you can get more information by registering on the 501(c)(iii) (Charity) site of www.eGlobalEd.Org Best regards Gregg This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Circuit Breakers
Hi All, Does anyone have any information concerning the requirement for surge protection on circuit breakers that came into effect this June? This may just be for the EU and Laboratory equipment. Regards, Scott --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: creepage v breakdown voltage
Hi All, The Creepage and clearance specifications take into account the long term degradation of spacings due to environmental conditions. Just because it will pass the test today when it is clean and pure does not mean that this condition will last forever. Scott MCA Compliance wrote: Peter I agreee with your comment, but, I have seen lots of boards (material group III) pass high pot tests at 1.5kV with only 2 mm creepage on the boards. yet, 950 specifies 2.5mm for basic insulation. This is why I am after some independent experimental test data correlating creepage and dielectric strength, with different board material properties taken into account. I suppose to flip it around, if a board passes the hi-pot for 1 minute with 2 mm creepage (and the fact that it passes the hi-pot, means the clearance must also have been adequate?), why does 60950 look for 2.5mm creepage ??? rgds Brian -Original Message- From: Peter Merguerian [mailto:pmerguer...@itl.co.il] Sent: 15 March 2002 12:00 To: 'MCA Compliance'; Emc-Pstc Post Subject: RE: creepage v breakdown voltage Brian, Your PCB manufacturer should be able to tell you what spacings to keep in order to withstand the test voltages. It all depends on the base material used for the PCB which all have different dielectric strength properties. Remember, the standards reference a minimum creepage distance AND you must still pass the electric strength tests. This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. PETER S. MERGUERIAN Technical Director I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd. 26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211 Or Yehuda 60251, Israel Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022 Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019 Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175 http://www.itl.co.il http://www.i-spec.com -Original Message- From: MCA Compliance [mailto:bally...@iolfree.ie] Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 11:54 AM To: Emc-Pstc Post Subject: creepage v breakdown voltage does data exist which correlates creepage distance on a pcb with hi-potential test voltage it should withstand ? for example, I know 60950 sugests a test voltage of 1500Vrms for 1 minute and a creepage of 2.5mm (material group III) for basic insulation. How did they arrive at 2.5 mm ??? Brian email: i...@mcac.ie --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Quality Assurance and Product Approvals
Hi All, When I was with Xerox, Versatec Division, we were placed in the Engineering Services Dept. with Drafting and Component engineering. This worked very well and gave us input to the purchasing specifications as well as design considerations. Our relationship with Engineering was very good, with our manager sitting on the change review and material review boards. We reported ultimately to a Director of Engineering Services (and a good Director if you are out there Joyce), but not a VP. Scott leeschm...@aol.com wrote: Hi all, Interesting discussion. Here is my 2 cents. Must be about $1.00 worth by now. I once came upon an interesting compromise as to the organization chart position of compliance. They put it in test or quality, but funded it through the engineering budget. Not perfect, but it prevented engineering from squeezing the last 0.5 dB or hi pot voltage from the device. However it does encourage them to save money and design in compliance. I suppose in the best of all possible worlds this would not be necessary but it did seem to work. A VP of compliance is probably work the best, of course if they chose me for the position. Lee Schmitz Electrical safety compliance consultant --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: My departure
Thirded (but only for the US :)). Scott James, Chris wrote: Seconded!! Chris James __ Chris James Engineering Services Manager Dolby Laboratories, Inc. (UK) www.dolby.com -Original Message- From: Chris Chileshe [mailto:chris.chile...@ultronics.co.uk] Sent: 16 November 2001 11:04 To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: My departure Any possibility of reconsidering your decision John? I think it would be a real shame to lose John's presence on the list. While it would obviously be possible for us to contact him directly ( and I for one have done so in the past), I have always found it educational to read John's responses to others' queries, and then related it all to my own products. True, there have been times when some of John's responses have been somewhat 'direct' and possibly frightening for the uninitiated newcomer, but a week on the list and you learn to expect responses like: Surely you don't expect us to replicate the entire scope of EN abc on this forum to the less specific queries like: Can someone tell me what EN abc covers but as with all lists it is just a matter of time before you pick up on the different personalities, and learn to expect a certain 'tone' from contributions by the likes of John, The many Chris's, Ken, Bob, Tania, Rich, Ed, Kyle, Amund to mention but a few. One also knows when to expect responses on IT, Audio, Power, Automotive, Marine, Aerospace etc. I would therefore like to appeal to John and the administrator - and indeed to Kofi Annan should he find time in his otherwise busy schedule, to try and work this out for the sake of all of us. Thank you. - Chris -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [SMTP:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 9:07 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:My departure As a result of representations from one of the administrators, which I consider totally unjustified, I am leaving the group. I regret having to break contact with those that responded favourably to my input. You are free to e-mail me if you wish. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. _ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list
Vendor night
Hi All, I have attached a flyer for the Northeast Product Safety Society, 7th annual Vendors night, that will be held on the 15th of November this year. Looking forward to all of the New England local people to show up as well as any of our friends that might be in the area. Scott Barrows Vice President NPSS npssflyr.doc Description: MS-Word document
Re: Safety Critical etc - the future
Hi All, With the remarks about this topic needing to be discussed in IEC and industry committees as well as between professionals, I think it may be time to inject that there are local Product Safety Societies (or the IEEE versions) that were formed for this particular reason. Perhaps the Engineers that sit on these TAG and TC committees should join up and take an ACTIVE role in these groups. With their participation in local safety societies, the entire industry will be represented and can be considered to have a voice in the development of standards and the considerations therein. I am not so sure that the NRTL's and Notified bodies should have the only voice in this process. Scott Barrows NPSS geor...@lexmark.com wrote: John, Allow me to comment further on this issue. I seem to remember a saying that goes The proof of the pudding is in the eating. By the same token, I have always expressed within my area of influence that the truest test of our internal ITE safety policies, practices and processes is field history. We all know that standards, like many other sets of knowledge, evolve from errors over time. Another saying that makes this point is Success comes from experience. Experience comes from failure. Overall, I believe the ITE industry has a superb safety record, given the exponential growth of this industry from corporate uses to homes, dorm rooms, etc. Hundreds of people are killed or injured every day in the use of various products, e.g. vehicles, farm equipment, firearms (hunting accidents), aircraft, etc. The majority of these are due to operator error and/or poor judgement. The more complex products are the ones more likely to develop a defect that could lead to deaths, e.g. aircraft. In the eight plus years I have been in product safety, I am not aware of a reported serious injury or death from the intended use or misuse of an ITE product. This does not mean there have been none, but it does mean that ITE is not a significant cause of injury or death. This is a result of fairly sound standards, common sense, experience, and due diligence in maintaining the original certified design of each product. We probably all know of improvements we would make in this process if we got to be king for a day. Most of us handle these as internal requirements beyond the imposed external requirements. The way we define and account for the use of safety critical parts is one small aspect of a much more complex series of processes leading to protecting ITE users from harm. George Alspaugh These are personal opinions only. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA
Jacob, I would imagine that when the electrical inspector came in to review the electrical connections of that computerized, T1 hooked up brand new home, there would be an issue that would relate to the NEC. Scott Jacob Schanker wrote: Rich: You are implying, but not stating, that NEC has the force of law regarding the domestic environment. This differs with my understanding, or lack thereof. I have always regarded the National Electric Code as a recommended set of standards and practices which enabled localities to reference NEC in their local building codes, rather than develop their own from scratch. Perhaps you can expand on where the force of law applies to the NEC with regard to portable, plug-in (not permanently wired) home appliances and such? Jack Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Phone: 716 442 3909 Fax: 716 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org - Original Message - From: Rich Nute ri...@sdd.hp.com To: gkerv...@eu-link.com Cc: schan...@frontiernet.net; wo...@sensormatic.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; mi...@ucentric.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:32 PM Subject: Re: NEC Question BUT REMEMBER OSHA | | | | Hi Gregg: | | |Just to ensure that I have my understanding right - if the equipment is used |where OSHA applies then it must be approved by a third party like UL | | Yes. More specifically: | |If... the product is used by an employee in the workplace... | |Then... the product must be certified by an NRTL, |of which UL is one. | |If it is domestic then it does not (in most states. | | No and yes. | | No, OSHA rules do not apply to a domestic place. | | Yes, NEC rules apply to a domestic place and do | require third-party safety certification. | | OSHA rules apply to the workplace, not to domestic places. | So, domestic places are not required -by OSHA- to have | NRTL-certified products. | | HOWEVER, the National Electrical Code applies everywhere, | including domestic places. The NEC requires products, | including domestic products, to be listed by a third- | party engaged in the safety evaluation of products. | | The NEC does not specify the third-party. During the | process of adoption of the NEC by various city, county, | or state governments, the government agency decides | which certification houses are acceptable to them. The | acceptable certification houses are published locally. | | For a third-party certifier, this means the certifier | must not only apply to OSHA for NRTL, but must also | apply to every jurisdiction in the USA for acceptance | under the NEC. | | Many, but not all NRTLs are also accepted by the various | city, county, or state governments under the local version | of the NEC. | | Likewise, there are some certifiers who are accepted by | one or more governments under the NEC, but are not NRTLs. | | There are a few pockets where local governments do not | require listing under the NEC. | | In summary: | | OSHA requires products used in the workplace to be | certified by an NRTL. | | The NEC requires products used in an installation | (including domestic places) to be certified by an | organization designated by the local government | agency charged with enforcing the NEC. | | These are independent functions. | | For all practical purposes, third-party safety certification | is required throughout the USA. | | Enforcement of both OSHA and NEC for cord-connected products | is spotty at best. | | Since virtually all products are NRTL-certified, OSHA spends | its time addressing more immediate workplace safety issues. | | Since cord-connected products are installed AFTER the | electrical installation is complete and approved, and since | virtually all products are safety-certified, there is little | or no enforcement of NEC-required certification. | |AND, does anyone have a list of States where certification is mandated? | | I would be easier to come up with a list of where certification | is NOT required! :-) It would be a one-page list of cities | or counties which have very low population densities. | | | Best regards, | Rich | | | | | | | --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer
EN 61010-1
Hello All, Has anyone started evaluations or testing to EN61010-1, 2nd edition 2001 -02 yet? Scott Barrows Curtis Straus LLC --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
Re: EN60950 (UL1950, IEC 60950) On off switch marking.
Hi,
If the switch is being used as the disconnect device it needs to disconnect
both poles simultaneously (2.6.6). 1.7.8.3 only refers to on and off
indications of the equipment.
So I guess I need to know if the switch is being used as a disconnect or
just to turn the machine on and off.
Scott Barrows
Curtis Straus LLC
Rick Linford wrote:
Hi All,
When a switch opens only one leg of the mains to control power to
equipment should it be marked with the l and O?
Background:
Three different engineers from three different NRTLs indicated it is
permitted, two even required it. A different engineer for one of the
NRTLs and two other respected individuals indicate it is prohibited. It
will be interesting if members of this list will have the same 50/50
split or if there is a correct answer.
(single phase 100 to 240 VAC, 2A, 50-60 Hz, intended to be shipped US,
Canada, EU and generally internationally)
To help, IEC 60950 (1999), section 1.7.8.3 Symbols, is shown below.
Where symbols are used on or near controls, for example switches, push
button, etc., to indicate ON OFF conditions, they shall be the line
l for ON and the circle O for OFF (60417-1-IEC-5007 and
60417-1-IEC-5008). For push-push type switches the symbol {line in side
the circle} shall be used (60417-1-IEC-5010).
It is permitted to use the symbols O and l to indicate the OFF and
ON positions of any primary or secondary power switches, including
isolating switches.
A STAND-BY condition shall be indicated by the symbol {line breaking
the circle at the top} (60417-1-IEC-5009).
My bias was not included in the 50/50 statistics noted above but I
believe it is required.
Rick Linford
Regulatory Engineer
SonicWALL
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