Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[Pete Perkins]

Ian,

 

Altho you haven't identified the source of the noise it
certainly is due to switching equipment upstream from your lab within you
building; VSDs are very noisy at lower frequencies.  

 

I recommend that you look for an electric motor-generator
unit to power your lab.  This should be much cleaner than any switching
source.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

IEEE Life Fellow

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: McBurney, Ian <ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com> 
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2018 1:11 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

 

Hello Ari.

 

I'm considering hiring an ac source to power the LISN but my only concern
would be that the ac source has high conducted rf emissions as I assume the
ac is derived from high frequency switching power devices.

 

regards 

 

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

 

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com <mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com> 

 

 

From: Ari Honkala [mailto:ari.honk...@sesko.fi] 
Sent: 26 April 2018 17:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

 

As an interim solution, until you get the source fixed, would be to use UPS
on battery.

 

with best regards,

 

Ari Honkala

 

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com] 
Sent: torstai 26. huhtikuuta 2018 13:33
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

 

Dear Colleagues.

 

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond
that and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this
noise. I have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to
attenuate enough at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating
frequencies beyond 1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer
before the LISN but this appears to distort the measurements.

Can anyone recommend a solution?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

 

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com <mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com> 

 

 

Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the
individual and not necessarily those of the company. 

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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[CATHERINE PEARSON]

Hi Ian, 
When you used the isolation transformer how did you have the earth connected or 
isolated? 

I have seen similar issues, I used an isolation transformer but connected the 
earth  or used a separate earth connection, I think I remember this  solved it. 

You could try finding the source of the noise, 
how certain are you that the LISN is not faulty? 
Normally they filter out emissions very well, could it be the LISN is faulty 
and passing the noise through or creating the noise it the first place? 
Can you run a set up to look at how noisy your mains supply is without any 
product connected to it? 
regards Darren. 

 

On Friday, 27 April 2018, 9:11, "McBurney, Ian" 
<ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com> wrote:
 

  Hello Ari.    I’m considering hiring an ac 
source to power the LISN but my only concern would be that the ac source has 
high conducted rf emissions as I assume the ac is derived from high frequency 
switching power devices.    regards     Ian McBurney Lead Compliance Engineer.  
  Allen & Heath Ltd. Kernick Industrial Estate, Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK 
T: 01326 372070 E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com       From: Ari Honkala 
[mailto:ari.honk...@sesko.fi]
Sent: 26 April 2018 17:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements    As an interim 
solution, until you get the source fixed, would be to use UPS on battery.    
with best regards,    Ari Honkala    From: McBurney, Ian 
[mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: torstai 26. huhtikuuta 2018 13:33
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements    Dear Colleagues.   
 I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements. Can anyone recommend a solution?    Many 
thanks in advance.    Ian McBurney Lead Compliance Engineer.    Allen & Heath 
Ltd. Kernick Industrial Estate, Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK T: 01326 372070 
E:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com       Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business 
in England and Wales, Company number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this 
email are those of the individual and not necessarily those of the company.  -
 This message 
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<emc

Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[McBurney, Ian]

Hello Ari.

I'm considering hiring an ac source to power the LISN but my only concern would 
be that the ac source has high conducted rf emissions as I assume the ac is 
derived from high frequency switching power devices.

regards

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


From: Ari Honkala [mailto:ari.honk...@sesko.fi]
Sent: 26 April 2018 17:22
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

As an interim solution, until you get the source fixed, would be to use UPS on 
battery.

with best regards,

Ari Honkala

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: torstai 26. huhtikuuta 2018 13:33
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
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formats), large 

Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[John Woodgate]

Very good advice. Actually, there are grounds (!) for using a balanced 
filter, i.e. inductors in both L and N.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-04-26 19:20, Edward Price wrote:


*Ian:*

**

*It sounds like the low-pass powerline filters that are being used 
with your shielded enclosure are very inadequate for removing low 
frequency noise. Here is a short description of the filters used on my 
shielded enclosures (a main EUT chamber and an auxiliary chamber for 
stimulus and monitoring equipment):*


Electrical power (120 VAC 60 Hz Three Phase Wye, 120 VAC 400 Hz Three 
Phase Wye and 28 VDC) penetrates the RF shielded enclosures through 
low-pass EMI filters mounted on the enclosure walls. Power is 
internally distributed, within steel conduit, to convenience outlets 
and incandescent lighting fixtures. The primary chamber EMI filters 
for the 60 Hz power lines are 100 Amp rated Rayproof 4X100-60 units. 
The primary chamber EMI filters for the 400 Hz power lines are 50 Amp 
rated Corcom CDSRW2050A4-C units. The primary chamber EMI filters for 
the 28 VDC power lines are 100 Amp rated Rayproof ULW-100-400-4 units. 
All EMI filters have a rated attenuation of 120 dB or greater from 14 
kHz to 10 GHz.


The auxiliary enclosure is equipped with AC and DC power line filters 
with a rated attenuation of 90 dB or greater from 14 kHz to 10 GHz.


**

*All of these filters are at least 25 years old now, so the model 
numbers may not be current. Further, these filters were intended for a 
full-capability military EMC lab, so you probably will not need the 
amperage capacity of these filters. However, the attenuations shown 
are what you should prefer if you want your lab to be well-equipped.*


**

*It is certainly possible that you could build a pair of heavy current 
low-pass filters to augument each powerline that penetrates your 
enclosure. I would be thinking of a double-pi section filter using 
three 10 uF capacitors and two 100 mH toroidal inductors as a first 
trial design. However, home-brewing a powerline filter is more 
complicated (and much more dangerous) than it sounds; it would be much 
safer for you to just buy some better filters.*


**

*Take a look at places like eBay. Here’s a typical, good quality 
2-line EMI powerline filter selling for $600:*


**

*https://www.ebay.com/itm/RAYPROOF-EMI-FILTER-14KHZ-TO-10GHZ-ULW-2X30-60/250998382668?hash=item3a70ab604c:m:mfuCE0sb33zzXWsoekkNGSA*

**

**

*/Ed Price
/**WB6WSN**/
/**Chula Vista, CA USA**//*

**

*From:*McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, April 26, 2018 3:33 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 
240V wall socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 
400KHz. Beyond that and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of 
filtering out this noise. I have tried various EMI mains filter 
modules but none appear to attenuate enough at that frequency band. 
They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 1MHz. I have 
tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.


Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com

Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, 
Company number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those 
of the individual and not necessarily those of the company.


-


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<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>


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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[Edward Price]

Ian:

It sounds like the low-pass powerline filters that are being used with your 
shielded enclosure are very inadequate for removing low frequency noise. Here 
is a short description of the filters used on my shielded enclosures (a main 
EUT chamber and an auxiliary chamber for stimulus and monitoring equipment):



Electrical power (120 VAC 60 Hz Three Phase Wye, 120 VAC 400 Hz Three Phase Wye 
and 28 VDC) penetrates the RF shielded enclosures through low-pass EMI filters 
mounted on the enclosure walls. Power is internally distributed, within steel 
conduit, to convenience outlets and incandescent lighting fixtures. The primary 
chamber EMI filters for the 60 Hz power lines are 100 Amp rated Rayproof 
4X100-60 units. The primary chamber EMI filters for the 400 Hz power lines are 
50 Amp rated Corcom CDSRW2050A4-C units. The primary chamber EMI filters for 
the 28 VDC power lines are 100 Amp rated Rayproof ULW-100-400-4 units. All EMI 
filters have a rated attenuation of 120 dB or greater from 14 kHz to 10 GHz.
The auxiliary enclosure is equipped with AC and DC power line filters with a 
rated attenuation of 90 dB or greater from 14 kHz to 10 GHz.

All of these filters are at least 25 years old now, so the model numbers may 
not be current. Further, these filters were intended for a full-capability 
military EMC lab, so you probably will not need the amperage capacity of these 
filters. However, the attenuations shown are what you should prefer if you want 
your lab to be well-equipped.

It is certainly possible that you could build a pair of heavy current low-pass 
filters to augument each powerline that penetrates your enclosure. I would be 
thinking of a double-pi section filter using three 10 uF capacitors and two 100 
mH toroidal inductors as a first trial design. However, home-brewing a 
powerline filter is more complicated (and much more dangerous) than it sounds; 
it would be much safer for you to just buy some better filters.

Take a look at places like eBay. Here's a typical, good quality 2-line EMI 
powerline filter selling for $600:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RAYPROOF-EMI-FILTER-14KHZ-TO-10GHZ-ULW-2X30-60/250998382668?hash=item3a70ab604c:m:mfuCE0sb33zzXWsoekkNGSA


Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 3:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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For policy questions, send mail to:
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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[Ari Honkala]

As an interim solution, until you get the source fixed, would be to use UPS on 
battery.

with best regards,

Ari Honkala

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: torstai 26. huhtikuuta 2018 13:33
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
-


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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[James Pawson (U3C)]

Hi Ian,

 

Could you turn the LISN around to measure the noise on the feed for your
chamber? Might give you some useful pointers.

 

All the best

James 

 

From: McBurney, Ian <ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com> 
Sent: 26 April 2018 15:43
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

 

Hello John.

 

That will be quite difficult as the screened room is in the centre of the
building with many different types of equipment adding to the overall mains
noise.

 

Regards;

 

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

 

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com <mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com> 

 

 

From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] 
Sent: 26 April 2018 13:43
To: McBurney, Ian <ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com
<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com> >; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

 

Have you tried to isolate the original source of the noise - and then to
supress that?

 

John E Allen

W. London, UK

 

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com] 
Sent: 26 April 2018 11:33
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

 

Dear Colleagues.

 

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond
that and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this
noise. I have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to
attenuate enough at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating
frequencies beyond 1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer
before the LISN but this appears to distort the measurements.

Can anyone recommend a solution?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

 

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com <mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com> 

 

 

Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the
individual and not necessarily those of the company. 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the
individual and not necessarily those of the company. 

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
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-

Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[McBurney, Ian]

Hello John.

That will be quite difficult as the screened room is in the centre of the 
building with many different types of equipment adding to the overall mains 
noise.

Regards;

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: 26 April 2018 13:43
To: McBurney, Ian <ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Have you tried to isolate the original source of the noise - and then to 
supress that?

John E Allen
W. London, UK

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: 26 April 2018 11:33
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.

-

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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[Kunde, Brian]

Well, if it is your AC Mains and it is that noisy, you may have to use your own 
power source such as a motor generator or a high powered AC power supply.  You 
need to keep your power source as pure as possible for EMC testing.  For this 
reason, our EMC lab is in a completely different building and we have our own 
transformers powering our building from the utility company.  We also have a 
dedicated 75k watt motor generator for 50hz testing.
Do you have access to a Power Line Analyzer?  Sounds like you might have quite 
a mess there.
Good luck.
The Other Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 10:24 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Hello Brian.

Yes, I have 2 bulkhead mounted filters; one for the screened room & one for the 
control room.
However; I think the fundamental frequency of the noise may be in the KHz or 
10s of KHz range.

Regards;

Ian


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 26 April 2018 14:12
To: McBurney, Ian 
<ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Ian,

Does your screen room have massive line filters on the AC mains coming in?  
This would be a requirement I believe.

Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 9:08 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Hello Brian.

If I power the LISN from the wall socket with no load connected, the emissions 
measurements are high.
If I switch off the wall socket, (double pole switch) but leave the LISN supply 
cable plugged in the wall socket the emissions drop considerably.
It is unfortunate that the measurement chamber is within a busy air conditioned 
R building but it is a screened room.

Regards;

Ian


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 26 April 2018 13:38
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Ian,

First, are you sure the noise if coming from your AC Mains?   If you are using 
line filters, you need to get some kick butt filters that will give you good 
attenuation down to at least 10khz.

Second, are you sure the signals you are seeing between 150kHz and 400kHz are 
real?  Zero in on one of the signals and do a linearity check. This is done by 
taking a reading, then add attenuation such as a 6 dB attenuator to the input, 
and take another reading, which should be 6 dB less. If not, the problem might 
be a signal much lower in frequency which is throwing off the input stage of 
your receiver/spectrum analyzer.

Check the AC Mains powering your analyzer.  It might be the source of your 
problem.

Hope you figure it out.

The Other Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [BULK] [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements
Importance: Low

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-

Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[John Woodgate]

If so, have you got a bigelectronic motor drive (VSD?) nearby? They 
/should/ be assessed, at leas for conducted emissions, after 
installation, but


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-04-26 15:24, McBurney, Ian wrote:


Hello Brian.

Yes, I have 2 bulkhead mounted filters; one for the screened room & 
one for the control room.


However; I think the fundamental frequency of the noise may be in the 
KHz or 10s of KHz range.


Regards;

Ian

*From:*Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
*Sent:* 26 April 2018 14:12
*To:* McBurney, Ian <ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

*Subject:* RE: Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Ian,

Does your screen room have massive line filters on the AC mains coming 
in?  This would be a requirement I believe.


Brian

*From:*McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, April 26, 2018 9:08 AM
*To:* Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

*Subject:* RE: Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Hello Brian.

If I power the LISN from the wall socket with no load connected, the 
emissions measurements are high.


If I switch off the wall socket, (double pole switch) but leave the 
LISN supply cable plugged in the wall socket the emissions drop 
considerably.


It is unfortunate that the measurement chamber is within a busy air 
conditioned R building but it is a screened room.


Regards;

Ian

*From:*Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
*Sent:* 26 April 2018 13:38
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Ian,

First, are you sure the noise if coming from your AC Mains?   If you 
are using line filters, you need to get some kick butt filters that 
will give you good attenuation down to at least 10khz.


Second, are you sure the signals you are seeing between 150kHz and 
400kHz are real?  Zero in on one of the signals and do a linearity 
check. This is done by taking a reading, then add attenuation such as 
a 6 dB attenuator to the input, and take another reading, which should 
be 6 dB less. If not, the problem might be a signal much lower in 
frequency which is throwing off the input stage of your 
receiver/spectrum analyzer.


Check the AC Mains powering your analyzer.  It might be the source of 
your problem.


Hope you figure it out.

The Other Brian

*From:*McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:33 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* [BULK] [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements
*Importance:* Low

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 
240V wall socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 
400KHz. Beyond that and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of 
filtering out this noise. I have tried various EMI mains filter 
modules but none appear to attenuate enough at that frequency band. 
They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 1MHz. I have 
tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.


Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com <mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>

Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, 
Company number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those 
of the individual and not necessarily those of the company.


-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html


Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities 
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for 
graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
unsubscribe)

List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>>
Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>>

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

---

Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[McBurney, Ian]

Hello Brian.

Yes, I have 2 bulkhead mounted filters; one for the screened room & one for the 
control room.
However; I think the fundamental frequency of the noise may be in the KHz or 
10s of KHz range.

Regards;

Ian


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 26 April 2018 14:12
To: McBurney, Ian <ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Ian,

Does your screen room have massive line filters on the AC mains coming in?  
This would be a requirement I believe.

Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 9:08 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: RE: Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Hello Brian.

If I power the LISN from the wall socket with no load connected, the emissions 
measurements are high.
If I switch off the wall socket, (double pole switch) but leave the LISN supply 
cable plugged in the wall socket the emissions drop considerably.
It is unfortunate that the measurement chamber is within a busy air conditioned 
R building but it is a screened room.

Regards;

Ian


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 26 April 2018 13:38
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Ian,

First, are you sure the noise if coming from your AC Mains?   If you are using 
line filters, you need to get some kick butt filters that will give you good 
attenuation down to at least 10khz.

Second, are you sure the signals you are seeing between 150kHz and 400kHz are 
real?  Zero in on one of the signals and do a linearity check. This is done by 
taking a reading, then add attenuation such as a 6 dB attenuator to the input, 
and take another reading, which should be 6 dB less. If not, the problem might 
be a signal much lower in frequency which is throwing off the input stage of 
your receiver/spectrum analyzer.

Check the AC Mains powering your analyzer.  It might be the source of your 
problem.

Hope you figure it out.

The Other Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [BULK] [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements
Importance: Low

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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This message is from the I

Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[Kunde, Brian]

Ian,

Does your screen room have massive line filters on the AC mains coming in?  
This would be a requirement I believe.

Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 9:08 AM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Hello Brian.

If I power the LISN from the wall socket with no load connected, the emissions 
measurements are high.
If I switch off the wall socket, (double pole switch) but leave the LISN supply 
cable plugged in the wall socket the emissions drop considerably.
It is unfortunate that the measurement chamber is within a busy air conditioned 
R building but it is a screened room.

Regards;

Ian


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 26 April 2018 13:38
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Ian,

First, are you sure the noise if coming from your AC Mains?   If you are using 
line filters, you need to get some kick butt filters that will give you good 
attenuation down to at least 10khz.

Second, are you sure the signals you are seeing between 150kHz and 400kHz are 
real?  Zero in on one of the signals and do a linearity check. This is done by 
taking a reading, then add attenuation such as a 6 dB attenuator to the input, 
and take another reading, which should be 6 dB less. If not, the problem might 
be a signal much lower in frequency which is throwing off the input stage of 
your receiver/spectrum analyzer.

Check the AC Mains powering your analyzer.  It might be the source of your 
problem.

Hope you figure it out.

The Other Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [BULK] [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements
Importance: Low

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

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formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://

Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[McBurney, Ian]

Hello Brian.

If I power the LISN from the wall socket with no load connected, the emissions 
measurements are high.
If I switch off the wall socket, (double pole switch) but leave the LISN supply 
cable plugged in the wall socket the emissions drop considerably.
It is unfortunate that the measurement chamber is within a busy air conditioned 
R building but it is a screened room.

Regards;

Ian


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: 26 April 2018 13:38
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

Ian,

First, are you sure the noise if coming from your AC Mains?   If you are using 
line filters, you need to get some kick butt filters that will give you good 
attenuation down to at least 10khz.

Second, are you sure the signals you are seeing between 150kHz and 400kHz are 
real?  Zero in on one of the signals and do a linearity check. This is done by 
taking a reading, then add attenuation such as a 6 dB attenuator to the input, 
and take another reading, which should be 6 dB less. If not, the problem might 
be a signal much lower in frequency which is throwing off the input stage of 
your receiver/spectrum analyzer.

Check the AC Mains powering your analyzer.  It might be the source of your 
problem.

Hope you figure it out.

The Other Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [BULK] [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements
Importance: Low

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>


LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[John Allen]

Have you tried to isolate the original source of the noise - and then to
supress that?

 

John E Allen

W. London, UK

 

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com] 
Sent: 26 April 2018 11:33
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

 

Dear Colleagues.

 

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond
that and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this
noise. I have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to
attenuate enough at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating
frequencies beyond 1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer
before the LISN but this appears to distort the measurements.

Can anyone recommend a solution?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

 

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com

 

 

Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the
individual and not necessarily those of the company. 

-


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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[John Woodgate]

It's rather unusual; what have you got in the factory that might be 
causing it? Can you try powering the LISN from a spur taken directly 
from the main breaker box, with nothing else connected to the spur?


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-04-26 13:33, McBurney, Ian wrote:


Hello John.

I’m getting the LISN checked at a UKAS EMC facility next week. I think 
it’s excessive noise on the ac mains that’s not being attenuated 
sufficiently by the LISN.


Regards;

Ian

*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* 26 April 2018 13:04
*To:* McBurney, Ian <ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>; 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

You might ask the manufacturer of the LISN. Maybe it's faulty.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk>
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-04-26 11:32, McBurney, Ian wrote:

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system
and am experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN
to the 240V wall socket. The noise affects my measurements between
150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is
there a way of filtering out this noise. I have tried various EMI
mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough at that
frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies
beyond 1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer
before the LISN but this appears to distort the measurements.

Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com <mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>

Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales,
Company number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are
those of the individual and not necessarily those of the company. -


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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<http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html>

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities
site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
<http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/> can be used for graphics
(in well-used formats), large files, etc.

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Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, 
Company number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those 
of the individual and not necessarily those of the company. -



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
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-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.

Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[Kunde, Brian]

Ian,

First, are you sure the noise if coming from your AC Mains?   If you are using 
line filters, you need to get some kick butt filters that will give you good 
attenuation down to at least 10khz.

Second, are you sure the signals you are seeing between 150kHz and 400kHz are 
real?  Zero in on one of the signals and do a linearity check. This is done by 
taking a reading, then add attenuation such as a 6 dB attenuator to the input, 
and take another reading, which should be 6 dB less. If not, the problem might 
be a signal much lower in frequency which is throwing off the input stage of 
your receiver/spectrum analyzer.

Check the AC Mains powering your analyzer.  It might be the source of your 
problem.

Hope you figure it out.

The Other Brian

From: McBurney, Ian [mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:33 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [BULK] [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements
Importance: Low

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>


LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[McBurney, Ian]

Hello John.

I'm getting the LISN checked at a UKAS EMC facility next week. I think it's 
excessive noise on the ac mains that's not being attenuated sufficiently by the 
LISN.

Regards;

Ian


From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: 26 April 2018 13:04
To: McBurney, Ian <ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements


You might ask the manufacturer of the LISN. Maybe it's faulty.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2018-04-26 11:32, McBurney, Ian wrote:
Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com<mailto:ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com>


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company. -


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to 
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Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>>
David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>>

Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
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Re: [PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[John Woodgate]

You might ask the manufacturer of the LISN. Maybe it's faulty.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2018-04-26 11:32, McBurney, Ian wrote:


Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 
240V wall socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 
400KHz. Beyond that and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of 
filtering out this noise. I have tried various EMI mains filter 
modules but none appear to attenuate enough at that frequency band. 
They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 1MHz. I have 
tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.


Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney

Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.

Kernick Industrial Estate,

Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK

T: 01326 372070

E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com

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Company number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those 
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David Heald: 

[PSES] Mains Conducted rf emissions measurements

[McBurney, Ian]

Dear Colleagues.

I am setting up a mains conducted rf emissions measuring system and am 
experiencing excessive mains noise when connecting the LISN to the 240V wall 
socket. The noise affects my measurements between 150kHz to 400KHz. Beyond that 
and up to 30MHz I am satisfied. Is there a way of filtering out this noise. I 
have tried various EMI mains filter modules but none appear to attenuate enough 
at that frequency band. They are very good at attenuating frequencies beyond 
1MHz. I have tried inserting an isolation transformer before the LISN but this 
appears to distort the measurements.
Can anyone recommend a solution?

Many thanks in advance.

Ian McBurney
Lead Compliance Engineer.

Allen & Heath Ltd.
Kernick Industrial Estate,
Penryn, Cornwall. TR10 9LU. UK
T: 01326 372070
E: ian.mcbur...@allen-heath.com


Allen & Heath Ltd is a registered business in England and Wales, Company 
number: 4163451. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual 
and not necessarily those of the company.

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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formats), large files, etc.

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David Heald: