Re: [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls (Friday question)
Hi Doug: For safety, the issue seems to be reliance on the correct functioning of devices. As equipment becomes more and more complex, we are more reliant on the correct functioning of devices. An example is the modern day airplane. One specific example is the Air France flight from Buenos Aires to Paris. A pitot tube stopped working, so the airspeed indicator stopped working. The plane crashed into the Atlantic Ocean. However, the cause of the crash was pilot error in dealing with the loss of the airspeed indicator. The problem seems to me to be that we don’t understand the consequences and necessary action when we incur a functional safety failure. We are lulled into believing that functional safety cannot fail, and so we do not have an action plan in case of the failure. Rich From: Douglas E Powell Sent: Friday, September 3, 2021 7:00 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls (Friday question) All, My question is probably philosophical. With the advent of Safety rated PLCs, Safety Relays, and other solid state and programmable safety devices in certified and listed products, are we at risk of becoming over reliant on automated safety systems. I'm thinking in terms of IEC 61508, ISO 12100, UL 1998, UL 991, and many others. While I agree that use of programmable devices for safety control is in our future, it seems we, as a society, are putting a lot of reliance in this. It is well known that zero risk is impossible, but it also seems that "people these days" routinely ignore the risks, and it is my view that humans have a very bad history of correctly estimating risk out in the wild. It's not my intention to pick on autonomous vehicles only, since I've seen this sort of care-less behavior played out in other places as well. Some keywords I have in mind: * Automation Dependency * Automation Bias * Automation Induced Complacency In general, do you feel we are becoming a society that relies too much on technology and automation to keep us safe from harm? I'm looking for an open discussion on this and what do you feel will be in store for us in the future. -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA <mailto:doug...@gmail.com> doug...@gmail.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls (Friday question)
Ted, I agree with your comments. My concern today is about hazards that ancestors even one generation ago did not have. While my original question is mainly about human behavior and not the scale or proximity of a hazard, we are these days seeing problems that can become very catastrophic. One case I have in mind is the Lithium Battery Incident in Surprise Arizona. You see, we even soft pedal the problem by calling a serious explosion an incident. Reminds me of the old joke where medical practitioners will use the euphemism "negative patient outcome" for a death. I also live very near a wilderness area with a variety of large animals; in the foothills area of the Cache la Poudre Wilderness in Colorado. I like to think I am an observer of human behavior, at least to some extent, and I still get surprised at how people respond to dangerous situations. Have a great weekend, ~ Doug On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 9:14 AM Ted Eckert wrote: > Hi Doug, > > > > Let me ask your question a different way. Haven’t humans always used > technology to provide some level of safety that allows us to use or time > and mental capacity for other tasks? > > > > Millenia ago, hunter-gatherer groups had many things to be fearful of. > Surviving the night might require keeping a fire going to stay warm in the > winter. It might require having somebody stay up to keep an eye open for > wild animals or other groups of humans who might be hostile. We might not > think of the solutions to these problems as technology, but they were. As > we built cities with walls and homes with more efficient heating systems, > we stopped worrying about these issues. > > > > Medical technology has made us safer and allowed us to stop thinking about > many health issues that used to be more common. Food-safety technology has > improved, and we don’t need to spend as much time thinking about curing and > preserving foods to make them safe for consumption. In both cases, a > failure of the safety system has dramatic results. How often do we hear of > a case of contaminated food leading to a salmonella or e-coli outbreak? > > > > I live my life without thinking about issues that my ancestors from 200, > 1000 or 10,000 years ago had to be concerned with. The safety issues aren’t > gone, they are just managed by the technology of modern life. I recognize > that I am complacent, but I’ll let technology free me to think of other > things. > > > > For reference, I live at the urban-wilderness interface. Running into > large animals is a possibility in my neighborhood. It’s common enough that > we have to have rules about garbage cans to reduce interaction with bears. > > Bears Like Our Garbage! – Issaquah Highlands > <https://www.issaquahhighlands.com/bears-like-our-garbage/> > > > > Ted Eckert > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those > of my employer, humanity in general, or the large carnivores of western > Washington. > > > > > > *From:* Douglas E Powell > *Sent:* Friday, September 3, 2021 7:00 AM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls > (Friday question) > > > > All, > > > > My question is probably philosophical. > > > > With the advent of Safety rated PLCs, Safety Relays, and other solid > state and programmable safety devices in certified and listed products, are > we at risk of becoming over reliant on automated safety systems. I'm > thinking in terms of IEC 61508, ISO 12100, UL 1998, UL 991, and many > others. While I agree that use of programmable devices for safety control > is in our future, it seems we, as a society, are putting a lot of reliance > in this. It is well known that zero risk is impossible, but it also > seems that "people these days" routinely ignore the risks, and it is my > view that humans have a very bad history of correctly estimating risk out > in the wild. It's not my intention to pick on autonomous vehicles only, > since I've seen this sort of care-less behavior played out in other places > as well. > > > > Some keywords I have in mind: > >- Automation Dependency >- Automation Bias >- Automation Induced Complacency > > In general, do you feel we are becoming a society that relies too much on > technology and automation to keep us safe from harm? I'm looking for an > open discussion on this and what do you feel will be in store for us in the > future. > > > > -Doug > > > > > > Douglas E Powell > > Laporte, Colorado USA > > doug...@gmail.com > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 > > <https
Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls (Friday question)
Interesting topic, Doug! I think the first step would be to define overreliance in this context. How does one determine the appropriate degree of reliance on technology for safety? On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 8:14 AM Ted Eckert < 07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote: > Hi Doug, > > > > Let me ask your question a different way. Haven’t humans always used > technology to provide some level of safety that allows us to use or time > and mental capacity for other tasks? > > > > Millenia ago, hunter-gatherer groups had many things to be fearful of. > Surviving the night might require keeping a fire going to stay warm in the > winter. It might require having somebody stay up to keep an eye open for > wild animals or other groups of humans who might be hostile. We might not > think of the solutions to these problems as technology, but they were. As > we built cities with walls and homes with more efficient heating systems, > we stopped worrying about these issues. > > > > Medical technology has made us safer and allowed us to stop thinking about > many health issues that used to be more common. Food-safety technology has > improved, and we don’t need to spend as much time thinking about curing and > preserving foods to make them safe for consumption. In both cases, a > failure of the safety system has dramatic results. How often do we hear of > a case of contaminated food leading to a salmonella or e-coli outbreak? > > > > I live my life without thinking about issues that my ancestors from 200, > 1000 or 10,000 years ago had to be concerned with. The safety issues aren’t > gone, they are just managed by the technology of modern life. I recognize > that I am complacent, but I’ll let technology free me to think of other > things. > > > > For reference, I live at the urban-wilderness interface. Running into > large animals is a possibility in my neighborhood. It’s common enough that > we have to have rules about garbage cans to reduce interaction with bears. > > Bears Like Our Garbage! – Issaquah Highlands > <https://www.issaquahhighlands.com/bears-like-our-garbage/> > > > > Ted Eckert > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those > of my employer, humanity in general, or the large carnivores of western > Washington. > > > > > > *From:* Douglas E Powell > *Sent:* Friday, September 3, 2021 7:00 AM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls > (Friday question) > > > > All, > > > > My question is probably philosophical. > > > > With the advent of Safety rated PLCs, Safety Relays, and other solid > state and programmable safety devices in certified and listed products, are > we at risk of becoming over reliant on automated safety systems. I'm > thinking in terms of IEC 61508, ISO 12100, UL 1998, UL 991, and many > others. While I agree that use of programmable devices for safety control > is in our future, it seems we, as a society, are putting a lot of reliance > in this. It is well known that zero risk is impossible, but it also > seems that "people these days" routinely ignore the risks, and it is my > view that humans have a very bad history of correctly estimating risk out > in the wild. It's not my intention to pick on autonomous vehicles only, > since I've seen this sort of care-less behavior played out in other places > as well. > > > > Some keywords I have in mind: > >- Automation Dependency >- Automation Bias >- Automation Induced Complacency > > In general, do you feel we are becoming a society that relies too much on > technology and automation to keep us safe from harm? I'm looking for an > open discussion on this and what do you feel will be in store for us in the > future. > > > > -Doug > > > > > > Douglas E Powell > > Laporte, Colorado USA > > doug...@gmail.com > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 > > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fdougp01=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C49fe9945d84e4b210fee08d96ee34d5a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637662744821901045%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=elTTbeQDBWK8wL5Pi1cIRAHBfQ4DYgi1AXPRITvYfJ8%3D=0> > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and s
Re: [PSES] [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls (Friday question)
Hi Doug, Let me ask your question a different way. Haven't humans always used technology to provide some level of safety that allows us to use or time and mental capacity for other tasks? Millenia ago, hunter-gatherer groups had many things to be fearful of. Surviving the night might require keeping a fire going to stay warm in the winter. It might require having somebody stay up to keep an eye open for wild animals or other groups of humans who might be hostile. We might not think of the solutions to these problems as technology, but they were. As we built cities with walls and homes with more efficient heating systems, we stopped worrying about these issues. Medical technology has made us safer and allowed us to stop thinking about many health issues that used to be more common. Food-safety technology has improved, and we don't need to spend as much time thinking about curing and preserving foods to make them safe for consumption. In both cases, a failure of the safety system has dramatic results. How often do we hear of a case of contaminated food leading to a salmonella or e-coli outbreak? I live my life without thinking about issues that my ancestors from 200, 1000 or 10,000 years ago had to be concerned with. The safety issues aren't gone, they are just managed by the technology of modern life. I recognize that I am complacent, but I'll let technology free me to think of other things. For reference, I live at the urban-wilderness interface. Running into large animals is a possibility in my neighborhood. It's common enough that we have to have rules about garbage cans to reduce interaction with bears. Bears Like Our Garbage! - Issaquah Highlands<https://www.issaquahhighlands.com/bears-like-our-garbage/> Ted Eckert The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my employer, humanity in general, or the large carnivores of western Washington. From: Douglas E Powell Sent: Friday, September 3, 2021 7:00 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [EXTERNAL] [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls (Friday question) All, My question is probably philosophical. With the advent of Safety rated PLCs, Safety Relays, and other solid state and programmable safety devices in certified and listed products, are we at risk of becoming over reliant on automated safety systems. I'm thinking in terms of IEC 61508, ISO 12100, UL 1998, UL 991, and many others. While I agree that use of programmable devices for safety control is in our future, it seems we, as a society, are putting a lot of reliance in this. It is well known that zero risk is impossible, but it also seems that "people these days" routinely ignore the risks, and it is my view that humans have a very bad history of correctly estimating risk out in the wild. It's not my intention to pick on autonomous vehicles only, since I've seen this sort of care-less behavior played out in other places as well. Some keywords I have in mind: * Automation Dependency * Automation Bias * Automation Induced Complacency In general, do you feel we are becoming a society that relies too much on technology and automation to keep us safe from harm? I'm looking for an open discussion on this and what do you feel will be in store for us in the future. -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com> http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fdougp01=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C49fe9945d84e4b210fee08d96ee34d5a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637662744821901045%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=elTTbeQDBWK8wL5Pi1cIRAHBfQ4DYgi1AXPRITvYfJ8%3D=0> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C49fe9945d84e4b210fee08d96ee34d5a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637662744821911039%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000=8emj%2FA5kanRX0THrNK9zt4YyzTWSo3CvHGju9n5GHjU%3D=0> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct-compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F=04%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C49fe9945d84e4b210fee08d96ee34d5a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
Re: [PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls (Friday question)
I think it's not safe to generalize. Attitudes and forethought vary so much among designers. For me, whatever automated safety measures are provided, there must be 'last chance' protection in hardware, such as fuses. == Best wishes John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only www.woodjohn.uk Rayleigh, Essex UK Istae nunc praetereunt nisi non ubicumque On 2021-09-03 15:00, Douglas E Powell wrote: In general, do you feel we are becoming a society that relies too much on technology and automation to keep us safe from harm? I'm looking for an open discussion on this and what do you feel will be in store for us in the future. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Over Reliance on Automated Safety Controls (Friday question)
All, My question is probably philosophical. With the advent of Safety rated PLCs, Safety Relays, and other solid state and programmable safety devices in certified and listed products, are we at risk of becoming over reliant on automated safety systems. I'm thinking in terms of IEC 61508, ISO 12100, UL 1998, UL 991, and many others. While I agree that use of programmable devices for safety control is in our future, it seems we, as a society, are putting a lot of reliance in this. It is well known that zero risk is impossible, but it also seems that "people these days" routinely ignore the risks, and it is my view that humans have a very bad history of correctly estimating risk out in the wild. It's not my intention to pick on autonomous vehicles only, since I've seen this sort of care-less behavior played out in other places as well. Some keywords I have in mind: - Automation Dependency - Automation Bias - Automation Induced Complacency In general, do you feel we are becoming a society that relies too much on technology and automation to keep us safe from harm? I'm looking for an open discussion on this and what do you feel will be in store for us in the future. -Doug Douglas E Powell Laporte, Colorado USA doug...@gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
