Re: Electrical Safety - Canada

[Kevin Keegan]

Ditto if your using CSA 950

Kevin Keegan
KES & Associates
Ottawa, Canada

From: "Cereceres, David" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: Electrical Safety - Canada


>
> My understanding is that if you meet the US (UL) requirements you meet the
> Canadian requirements (cUL). At least that has been what I've experienced
> when submitting product under UL 6500 and UL 60950.
>
> David Cereceres
> Product Safety Engineer
> Pelco
>
>  -Original Message-
> From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 1:54 PM
> To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Electrical Safety - Canada
>
>
> In Europe we follow the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the it applies in
> the range 50-1000VAC and 75-1500VDC.
>
> A 27VDC operated product will therefore in Europe, not be within the scope
> of LVD. One reason for this must be that 27VDC is not assumed to be
> hazardous voltage.
>
> How is it in Canada ?
> I have been told that electrical safety apply even with DC voltage way
below
> 27V if the rated normal current is above a specified level. So it seems
that
> Canada is not strictly bounded to a voltage limit as in Europe, but rather
> to the amount of energy with can flow into the 27VDC input terminal.
>
> Can anybody confirm this ?
>
> Best regards
> Amund Westin
> Oslo / Norway
>
>
>
>
> ---
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RE: Electrical Safety - Canada

[richwo...@tycoint.com]

Peter, I can tell you that today in the USA, many jurisdictions require
Class II powered products to be Listed when installed in a commercial
environment. We ran into problems in Oregon, Washington, and several cities
elsewhere in the country where the local codes have been amended or are
intrepreted to required Listing. We finally gave up trying to fight the
local codes; so, today, we List all of our Class II products. Bummer.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International



From: Peter L. Tarver [mailto:peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com]
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 11:02 AM
To: richwo...@tycoint.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Electrical Safety - Canada


Amund & Richard -

Peter Merguerian had it pretty much right.

While not specifically written into the US NEC, the local
authorities having jurisdiction (AHJs) have not normally
required (let us say, it would've been extremely unusual)
Class II powered products to be safety certified, because
Class II implied that there was no risk of fire or electric
shock in the load circuit.  (It wasn't until about the 1990
Code, ± a revision) that Class II circuit conductors in
structures had to be insulated.)  When a specific fine print
note (fpn) was added to, IIRC, § 800-4 of the 1990 Code,
stating telecommunications equipment needed certification to
a standard "such as UL 1459", that unwritten exemption began
to fail for certain products.

I received a call from a client sometime shortly after the
1990 Code was published who had a fax machine powered by a
Class II brick that the City of Los Angeles had red tagged
on the basis of the fpn to § 800-4.  We were able to help
with the AHJ by convincing them that the applicable product
safety standard was UL 1950 and the fpn did not strictly
apply.  That ended with the inclusion of telecom
requirements in IEC 950 and UL1950.  Eventually, the 1999
NEC added UL 1950 as a "such as" standard to the fpn to §
800-4 .

OSHA's requirements for the workplace don't have any
exemptions with regard to Class II powered equipment, so
there's an impetus for certification in the workplace,
irrespective of power source.

For decades, UL would not evaluate a product powered by a
Class II source on much the same basis.  That thinking
changed as an increasing revenue stream potential presented
itself via the number of manufacturers specifying Class II
power sources for their products requesting certification,
and later by the OSHA regs.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver, PE
Product Safety Manager
Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services
2000 Ringwood Ave.
San Jose, CA 95131-1749
V: 408-904-2081
F: 408-904-2095
M: 408-234-3529
peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com

> -Original Message-
> From: richwo...@tycoint.com
> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 5:23 AM
>
> Amund, all electrical products are governed by
> the Canadian Electrical Code,
> and the CSA safety standards form part of the
> code. The Canadian Code is
> very similar to the US's National Electrical Code
> except for the inclusion
> of the CSA standards. There is one major
> difference, however, that directly
> affects you particular question. Unlike the NEC
> of the US, the Canadian Code
> has an expemption from Certification for products
> operated from Class II
> sources (at least it did the last time I reviewed
> the Code).
>
> Richard Woods
> Sensormatic Electronics
> Tyco International
>


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RE: Electrical Safety - Canada

[Peter L. Tarver]

Amund & Richard -

Peter Merguerian had it pretty much right.

While not specifically written into the US NEC, the local
authorities having jurisdiction (AHJs) have not normally
required (let us say, it would've been extremely unusual)
Class II powered products to be safety certified, because
Class II implied that there was no risk of fire or electric
shock in the load circuit.  (It wasn't until about the 1990
Code, ± a revision) that Class II circuit conductors in
structures had to be insulated.)  When a specific fine print
note (fpn) was added to, IIRC, § 800-4 of the 1990 Code,
stating telecommunications equipment needed certification to
a standard "such as UL 1459", that unwritten exemption began
to fail for certain products.

I received a call from a client sometime shortly after the
1990 Code was published who had a fax machine powered by a
Class II brick that the City of Los Angeles had red tagged
on the basis of the fpn to § 800-4.  We were able to help
with the AHJ by convincing them that the applicable product
safety standard was UL 1950 and the fpn did not strictly
apply.  That ended with the inclusion of telecom
requirements in IEC 950 and UL1950.  Eventually, the 1999
NEC added UL 1950 as a "such as" standard to the fpn to §
800-4 .

OSHA's requirements for the workplace don't have any
exemptions with regard to Class II powered equipment, so
there's an impetus for certification in the workplace,
irrespective of power source.

For decades, UL would not evaluate a product powered by a
Class II source on much the same basis.  That thinking
changed as an increasing revenue stream potential presented
itself via the number of manufacturers specifying Class II
power sources for their products requesting certification,
and later by the OSHA regs.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver, PE
Product Safety Manager
Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services
2000 Ringwood Ave.
San Jose, CA 95131-1749
V: 408-904-2081
F: 408-904-2095
M: 408-234-3529
peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com

> -Original Message-
> From: richwo...@tycoint.com
> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 5:23 AM
>
> Amund, all electrical products are governed by
> the Canadian Electrical Code,
> and the CSA safety standards form part of the
> code. The Canadian Code is
> very similar to the US's National Electrical Code
> except for the inclusion
> of the CSA standards. There is one major
> difference, however, that directly
> affects you particular question. Unlike the NEC
> of the US, the Canadian Code
> has an expemption from Certification for products
> operated from Class II
> sources (at least it did the last time I reviewed
> the Code).
>
> Richard Woods
> Sensormatic Electronics
> Tyco International
>



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RE: Electrical Safety - Canada

[richwo...@tycoint.com]

Amund, all electrical products are governed by the Canadian Electrical Code,
and the CSA safety standards form part of the code. The Canadian Code is
very similar to the US's National Electrical Code except for the inclusion
of the CSA standards. There is one major difference, however, that directly
affects you particular question. Unlike the NEC of the US, the Canadian Code
has an expemption from Certification for products operated from Class II
sources (at least it did the last time I reviewed the Code). 

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International



From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:54 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Electrical Safety - Canada



In Europe we follow the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the it applies in
the range 50-1000VAC and 75-1500VDC.

A 27VDC operated product will therefore in Europe, not be within the scope
of LVD. One reason for this must be that 27VDC is not assumed to be
hazardous voltage.

How is it in Canada ?
I have been told that electrical safety apply even with DC voltage way below
27V if the rated normal current is above a specified level. So it seems that
Canada is not strictly bounded to a voltage limit as in Europe, but rather
to the amount of energy with can flow into the 27VDC input terminal.

Can anybody confirm this ?

Best regards
Amund Westin
Oslo / Norway





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Re: Electrical Safety - Canada

[peter merguerian]

Amund, 


In Canada and US, what we have is a Class 2 circuit which is defined in the
NEC. Such a circuit must be from a limited power source and is very similar to
he voltages defined in "power limited circuits" in UL60950/EN60950. When you
have such a circuit or you power you equipment from such a source, there is no
risk of electric shock or fire hazards. The only problem is when the circuit
is in a wet environment. Then what we have is a Class 2 wet circuit and the
maximum voltage level is limited to 21.2 Vp. 


All Tthe Best, 


Peter 


 Amund Westin  wrote: 



In Europe we follow the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the it applies in
the range 50-1000VAC and 75-1500VDC.

A 27VDC operated product will therefore in Europe, not be within the scope
of LVD. One reason for this must be that 27VDC is not assumed to be
hazardous voltage.

How is it in Canada ?
I have been told that electrical safety apply even with DC voltage way below
27V if the rated normal current is above a specified level. So it seems that
Canada is not strictly bounded to a voltage limit as in Europe, but rather
to the amount of energy with can flow into the 27VDC input terminal.

Can anybody confirm this ?

Best regards
Amund Westin
Oslo / Norway





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 - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now http://mailplus.yahoo.com> 

RE: Electrical Safety - Canada

[Gregg Kervill]

If you browse through the eLearning section of http://www.test4safety.com
you will find several items that deal with hazards from SELV circuits.



CSA standards - like all others - reflect common hazards of Electric Shock -
ENERGY - CURRENT - FLAMMABILITY and MECHANICAL.


The thing saved using an SELV supply is the reduction of electric shock
hazard.


The LVD does not apply itself to SELV products but that does not eliminate
the need for manufacturers to do something.

UL Listing and CSA Certification of SELV (Safety Extra Low Voltage) and
SELVEL (Safety Extra Low Voltage Energy Limited) products is not unusual.
I was going to say 'normal' but I think I have been quite antagonistic
already   : ^}


When I worked for DEC we would review ALL products (EVEN CLASS III) to the
IT Standard. That had nothing to do with the standards - LVD or anything
imposed upon us. It was Good Engineering Practice - it improved product
quality - reduced risks and product liability. Above all it was also
expected by our customers.

The corollary to this is that there are NO SUV adverts that declare  -
"Our product doesn't meet the safety standards for a car - so we lower the
standard. " Gee - that would really impress me!



Oh - I nearly forgot -  if the LVD does not apply then (depending on the
product) it may be within the scope of the Radio and Telecom Terminal
Equipment R&TTE Directive 1999/05/EEC.

If it is not it will be within the scope of the RTTE then it will come under
the scope of the General Safety Directive and that also requires
manufacturers to do something. Being a design engineer used to be so easy -
(sigh).



Gregg

Personal views as always.






From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Amund Westin
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:54 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Electrical Safety - Canada


In Europe we follow the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the it applies in
the range 50-1000VAC and 75-1500VDC.

A 27VDC operated product will therefore in Europe, not be within the scope
of LVD. One reason for this must be that 27VDC is not assumed to be
hazardous voltage.

How is it in Canada ?
I have been told that electrical safety apply even with DC voltage way below
27V if the rated normal current is above a specified level. So it seems that
Canada is not strictly bounded to a voltage limit as in Europe, but rather
to the amount of energy with can flow into the 27VDC input terminal.

Can anybody confirm this ?

Best regards
Amund Westin
Oslo / Norway





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RE: Electrical Safety - Canada

[Cereceres, David]

My understanding is that if you meet the US (UL) requirements you meet the
Canadian requirements (cUL). At least that has been what I've experienced
when submitting product under UL 6500 and UL 60950.

David Cereceres
Product Safety Engineer
Pelco

 -Original Message-
From:   Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] 
Sent:   Thursday, January 23, 2003 1:54 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:    Electrical Safety - Canada


In Europe we follow the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the it applies in
the range 50-1000VAC and 75-1500VDC.

A 27VDC operated product will therefore in Europe, not be within the scope
of LVD. One reason for this must be that 27VDC is not assumed to be
hazardous voltage.

How is it in Canada ?
I have been told that electrical safety apply even with DC voltage way below
27V if the rated normal current is above a specified level. So it seems that
Canada is not strictly bounded to a voltage limit as in Europe, but rather
to the amount of energy with can flow into the 27VDC input terminal.

Can anybody confirm this ?

Best regards
Amund Westin
Oslo / Norway





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Electrical Safety - Canada

[Amund Westin]

In Europe we follow the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the it applies in
the range 50-1000VAC and 75-1500VDC.

A 27VDC operated product will therefore in Europe, not be within the scope
of LVD. One reason for this must be that 27VDC is not assumed to be
hazardous voltage.

How is it in Canada ?
I have been told that electrical safety apply even with DC voltage way below
27V if the rated normal current is above a specified level. So it seems that
Canada is not strictly bounded to a voltage limit as in Europe, but rather
to the amount of energy with can flow into the 27VDC input terminal.

Can anybody confirm this ?

Best regards
Amund Westin
Oslo / Norway





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