Re: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-05 Thread Tac Pham


Switch mode supply: worse case (functionality and heating) is low line
(-10%)
Linear supply: worse case in functionality is low line but worse case for
heating is hi-line (+10%.)

Tac Pham



>
> Disagree.  A switched mode power supply (SMPS) will draw more current at
low
> bus potential to provide constant load output power.
>
> >
> > Mark,
> >
> > Please pardon my ignorance. I have a silly question.
> > It seems to me that the purpose of brownout is to save
> > energy by reducing voltage. Why do you test your power
> > supply "down to 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum
> > specified operating temperature with high humidity
> > conditions present" instead of "up to 106 Vac ..."?
> > Higher voltage would consume more energy and produce
> > more heat inside the power supply.
> >
> > Barry Ma
> > Anritsu
> > -
> > From: "Mark Schmidt" , on 11/4/99
> > 9:45 AM:
> >
> > Eastern Japan Voltage 100 Vac @ 50Hz. (Tokyo,
> > Kawasaki, Sapporo, Yokohoma and Sebdai)
> > Western Japan Voltage 100 Vac @ 60Hz. (Osaka, Kyoto,
> > Nagoya, Hiroshima)
> >
> > I also agree with Tania and the brown-out conditions
> > that exist in Japan. It is my understanding that 90
> > Vac is quite common, personally I would test down to
> > 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum specified operating
> > temperature with high humidity conditions present.
> > --
> > From: "Grant, Tania (Tania)" , on
> > 11/3/99 4:40 PM:
> >
> > Ages ago when I worked at another company that shipped
> > products to Japan, their unwritten rule was to design
> > in power supplies that operated without problems at 85
> > Vac, and that had better be designed/tested down to 80
> > Vac, because of the continued brown-out conditions in
> > Japan. It seems nothing much has changed.
> >
> > I don't remember what was stated about the frequency
> > tolerance.
> >
> > Tania Grant,   tgr...@lucent.com 
> > Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =
> > Barry Ma
> > __
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
> >
> > -
> > This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
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> >
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Re: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-04 Thread Ken Javor

Disagree.  A switched mode power supply (SMPS) will draw more current at low
bus potential to provide constant load output power.

--
>From: Bl Ma 
>To: mschm...@xrite.com
>Cc: EMC/PS IEEE Group 
>Subject: RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo
>Date: Thu, Nov 4, 1999, 11:12 AM
>

>
> Mark,
>
> Please pardon my ignorance. I have a silly question.
> It seems to me that the purpose of brownout is to save
> energy by reducing voltage. Why do you test your power
> supply "down to 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum
> specified operating temperature with high humidity
> conditions present" instead of "up to 106 Vac ..."?
> Higher voltage would consume more energy and produce
> more heat inside the power supply.
>
> Barry Ma
> Anritsu
> -
> From: "Mark Schmidt" , on 11/4/99
> 9:45 AM:
>
> Eastern Japan Voltage 100 Vac @ 50Hz. (Tokyo,
> Kawasaki, Sapporo, Yokohoma and Sebdai)
> Western Japan Voltage 100 Vac @ 60Hz. (Osaka, Kyoto,
> Nagoya, Hiroshima)
>
> I also agree with Tania and the brown-out conditions
> that exist in Japan. It is my understanding that 90
> Vac is quite common, personally I would test down to
> 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum specified operating
> temperature with high humidity conditions present.
> --
> From: "Grant, Tania (Tania)" , on
> 11/3/99 4:40 PM:
>
> Ages ago when I worked at another company that shipped
> products to Japan, their unwritten rule was to design
> in power supplies that operated without problems at 85
> Vac, and that had better be designed/tested down to 80
> Vac, because of the continued brown-out conditions in
> Japan. It seems nothing much has changed.
>
> I don't remember what was stated about the frequency
> tolerance.
>
> Tania Grant,   tgr...@lucent.com 
> Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =
> Barry Ma
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
> -
> This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
> with the single line: "unsubscribe emc-pstc" (without the
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> 

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RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-04 Thread bma

Sorry, I just forgot inputting the subject.
-- Original Text --

From: Bailin Ma@MMDILAB@ACUS, on 11/4/99 1:28 PM:

Scott,
Thank you very much.
Barry
--
From:   "Lacey,Scott" , Date:   Thu, 4 Nov 1999 
14:52:57 
-0500   
Barry,

In a switchmode supply, the primary side dc voltage = 1.414 times the rms 
value of the ac input. This is then switched (at 100kHz or so) into the 
primary of a ferrite core transformer. The output pulse has an amplitude that 
is at a fixed ratio to the input voltage. The regulator circuit adjusts the 
pulse width to maintain a constant voltage at the output capacitor(s), 
regardless of load. The worst case is heavy load at low input voltage. The 
pulse width may reach the design limitation before the regulator is satisfied.

Hope this is some help.

Scott Lacey

-Original Message-
From:   Bl Ma 
Sent:   Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:13 PM
To: 
Cc: EMC/PS IEEE Group
Subject:        RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo


Mark,

Please pardon my ignorance. I have a silly question.
It seems to me that the purpose of brownout is to save energy by 
reducing 
voltage. Why do you test your power
supply "down to 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum specified operating 
temperature with high humidity
conditions present" instead of "up to 106 Vac ..."? Higher voltage 
would 
consume more energy and produce
more heat inside the power supply.
 
Barry Ma
Anritsu
-
From: "Mark Schmidt" <>, on 11/4/99 9:45 AM:

Eastern Japan Voltage   100 Vac @ 50Hz. (Tokyo,Kawasaki, Sapporo, 
Yokohoma and 
Sebdai)
Western Japan Voltage   100 Vac @ 60Hz. (Osaka, Kyoto, Nagoya, 
Hiroshima)

I also agree with Tania and the brown-out conditions that exist in 
Japan. It 
is my understanding that 90
Vac is quite common, personally I would test down to 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz 
at 
the maximum specified operating
temperature with high humidity conditions present. 
--
From: "Grant, Tania (Tania)", on 11/3/99 4:40 PM:

Ages ago when I worked at another company that shipped products to 
Japan, 
their unwritten rule was to design
in power supplies that operated without problems at 85 Vac, and that 
had 
better be designed/tested down to 80
Vac, because of the continued brown-out conditions in Japan. It seems 
nothing much has changed.

I don't remember what was stated about the frequency tolerance.

Tania Grant,
Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group







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RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-04 Thread Mark Schmidt

Barry,

Brownout is a fault condition. Alot of switching supplies operate in a range
of 100 - 240 Vac 50/60 Hz. Supply Manufacturers usually specify operating
temp and humidity conditions. So start by testing the Manufacturers own
specification. 106 Vac already falls into the specified range. 
Per UL1950
1.6.5 Mains supply tolerance
Equipment intended to operate directly from the mains supply shall be
designed for a minimum
supply tolerance of +6%, -10%. If the rated voltage is 230 V single phase or
400 V three phase,
the equipment shall operate safely within a minimum supply tolerance of +10%
and -10%.

This will increase your operating test range from 90 - 264 Vac. I go down to
85 Vac just because, I am a curious guy that wants to understand what my
limits are and where they are. In any case, at these lower AC input voltages
the PWM has to work harder to maintain a constant output voltage(s). In
doing so there is usually increased heat activity associated with the PWM
which can decrease the field reliability and MTBF which in turn equates to
customer dissatisfaction. In Japan a 90Vac condition can exist.

> -Original Message-
> From: Bl Ma [SMTP:mbl...@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:13 PM
> To:   mschm...@xrite.com
> Cc:   EMC/PS IEEE Group
> Subject:      RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo
> 
> Mark,
> 
> Please pardon my ignorance. I have a silly question.
> It seems to me that the purpose of brownout is to save
> energy by reducing voltage. Why do you test your power
> supply "down to 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum
> specified operating temperature with high humidity
> conditions present" instead of "up to 106 Vac ..."?
> Higher voltage would consume more energy and produce
> more heat inside the power supply.
>  
> Barry Ma
> Anritsu
> -
> From: "Mark Schmidt" , on 11/4/99
> 9:45 AM:
> 
> Eastern Japan Voltage 100 Vac @ 50Hz. (Tokyo,
> Kawasaki, Sapporo, Yokohoma and Sebdai)
> Western Japan Voltage 100 Vac @ 60Hz. (Osaka, Kyoto,
> Nagoya, Hiroshima)
> 
> I also agree with Tania and the brown-out conditions
> that exist in Japan. It is my understanding that 90
> Vac is quite common, personally I would test down to
> 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum specified operating
> temperature with high humidity conditions present.
> --
> From: "Grant, Tania (Tania)" , on
> 11/3/99 4:40 PM:
> 
> Ages ago when I worked at another company that shipped
> products to Japan, their unwritten rule was to design
> in power supplies that operated without problems at 85
> Vac, and that had better be designed/tested down to 80
> Vac, because of the continued brown-out conditions in
> Japan. It seems nothing much has changed.
> 
> I don't remember what was stated about the frequency
> tolerance.
> 
> Tania Grant,   tgr...@lucent.com   
> Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =
> Barry Ma
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-04 Thread Bl Ma

Mark,

Please pardon my ignorance. I have a silly question.
It seems to me that the purpose of brownout is to save
energy by reducing voltage. Why do you test your power
supply "down to 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum
specified operating temperature with high humidity
conditions present" instead of "up to 106 Vac ..."?
Higher voltage would consume more energy and produce
more heat inside the power supply.
 
Barry Ma
Anritsu
-
From: "Mark Schmidt" , on 11/4/99
9:45 AM:

Eastern Japan Voltage   100 Vac @ 50Hz. (Tokyo,
Kawasaki, Sapporo, Yokohoma and Sebdai)
Western Japan Voltage   100 Vac @ 60Hz. (Osaka, Kyoto,
Nagoya, Hiroshima)

I also agree with Tania and the brown-out conditions
that exist in Japan. It is my understanding that 90
Vac is quite common, personally I would test down to
85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum specified operating
temperature with high humidity conditions present.
--
From: "Grant, Tania (Tania)" , on
11/3/99 4:40 PM:

Ages ago when I worked at another company that shipped
products to Japan, their unwritten rule was to design
in power supplies that operated without problems at 85
Vac, and that had better be designed/tested down to 80
Vac, because of the continued brown-out conditions in
Japan. It seems nothing much has changed.

I don't remember what was stated about the frequency
tolerance.

Tania Grant,   tgr...@lucent.com   
Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group






=
Barry Ma
__
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-04 Thread Mark Schmidt

Eastern Japan Voltage   100 Vac @ 50Hz. (Tokyo, Kawasaki, Sapporo, Yokohoma
and Sebdai)
Western Japan Voltage   100 Vac @ 60Hz. (Osaka, Kyoto, Nagoya, Hiroshima)

I also agree with Tania and the brown-out conditions that exist in Japan.
It is my understanding that 90 Vac is quite common, personally I would test
down to 85 Vac at 50/60 Hz at the maximum specified operating temperature
with high humidity conditions present.

> -Original Message-
> From: Grant, Tania (Tania) [SMTP:tgr...@lucent.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 4:57 PM
> To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; 'geor...@lexmark.com'
> Subject:  RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo
> 
> 
> Ages ago when I worked at another company that shipped products to Japan,
> their unwritten rule was to design in power supplies that operated without
> problems at 85 Vac, and that had better be designed/tested down to 80 Vac,
> because of the continued brown-out conditions in Japan.   It seems nothing
> much has changed.
> 
> I don't remember what was stated about the frequency tolerance.
> 
> Tania Grant,   tgr...@lucent.com   
> Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group
> 
> 
> --
> From:  geor...@lexmark.com [SMTP:geor...@lexmark.com]
> Sent:  Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:34 AM
> To:  emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject:  90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo
> 
> 
> See the website below for global mains voltage/frequencies:
> 
> http://www.panelcomponents.com/guide.htm
> 
> The most notable example listed would be Japan, 100V @ 50Hz,
> or 90V @ 47Hz under usual tolerances of -10% and -3Hz respectively.
> 
> George Alspaugh
> Lexmark International Inc.
> -- Forwarded by George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark on
> 11/03/99
> 01:31 PM ---
> 
> grassc%louisville.stortek@interlock.lexmark.com on 11/03/99 12:59:30
> PM
> 
> Please respond to grassc%louisville.stortek@interlock.lexmark.com
> 
> To:   emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com
> cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark)
> Subject:  90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello standards sages..
> 
> We have a product that "stumbles" when the input voltage/freq
> is 90V/47Hz.
> 
> My question is..
> 
> Is this a reasonable test combo? Does anyone know of
> a country that falls in this range?
> 
> -
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-04 Thread Naftali Shani
I'll second the experience with 85 Volts design target, which can be very
common.
The normal business practice for Japan (at least 8+ years ago) was to turn
off power to an office complex Friday night, turn it back on Monday morning
- this was shown as a huge dip on the distribution network, not to mention
the braking effect on the generators (hence the tolerance to 47 Hz).

Keep in mind that Japan copied the same intent that the USA had when the
electrical supply was introduced: 100 Volts at the customer site. The USA
later on compensated for long distribution lines by raising the supply (can
reach 127!), which led to 'normal' outlet of 115.

Regards,
Naftali Shani, Nortel Networks, Dept. 0S45, MS 117/C1/N04
21 Richardson Side Road, Kanata, Ontario, Canada  K2K 2C1
Voice +1.613.765.2505 (ESN 395) Fax +1.613.763.3365 (ESN 393)
E-mail: nsh...@nortelnetworks.com <mailto:nsh...@nortelnetworks.com> 

-Original Message-
From:   Grant, Tania (Tania) [SMTP:tgr...@lucent.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, November 03, 1999 4:57 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; 'geor...@lexmark.com'
    Subject:    RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo


Ages ago when I worked at another company that shipped products to
Japan,
their unwritten rule was to design in power supplies that operated
without
problems at 85 Vac, and that had better be designed/tested down to
80 Vac,
because of the continued brown-out conditions in Japan.   It seems
nothing
much has changed.

I don't remember what was stated about the frequency tolerance.

Tania Grant,   tgr...@lucent.com   
Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group


--
From:  geor...@lexmark.com [SMTP:geor...@lexmark.com]
Sent:  Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:34 AM
To:  emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:  90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo


See the website below for global mains voltage/frequencies:

http://www.panelcomponents.com/guide.htm

The most notable example listed would be Japan, 100V @ 50Hz,
or 90V @ 47Hz under usual tolerances of -10% and -3Hz respectively.

George Alspaugh
Lexmark International Inc.
-- Forwarded by George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark on
11/03/99
01:31 PM ---

grassc%louisville.stortek@interlock.lexmark.com on 11/03/99
12:59:30 PM

Please respond to
grassc%louisville.stortek@interlock.lexmark.com

To:   emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com
cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark)
Subject:  90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo




Hello standards sages..

We have a product that "stumbles" when the input voltage/freq
is 90V/47Hz.

My question is..

Is this a reasonable test combo? Does anyone know of
a country that falls in this range?

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RE: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-03 Thread Grant, Tania (Tania)

Ages ago when I worked at another company that shipped products to Japan,
their unwritten rule was to design in power supplies that operated without
problems at 85 Vac, and that had better be designed/tested down to 80 Vac,
because of the continued brown-out conditions in Japan.   It seems nothing
much has changed.

I don't remember what was stated about the frequency tolerance.

Tania Grant,   tgr...@lucent.com   
Lucent Technologies, Communications Applications Group


--
From:  geor...@lexmark.com [SMTP:geor...@lexmark.com]
Sent:  Wednesday, November 03, 1999 10:34 AM
To:  emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject:  90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo


See the website below for global mains voltage/frequencies:

http://www.panelcomponents.com/guide.htm

The most notable example listed would be Japan, 100V @ 50Hz,
or 90V @ 47Hz under usual tolerances of -10% and -3Hz respectively.

George Alspaugh
Lexmark International Inc.
-- Forwarded by George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark on 11/03/99
01:31 PM ---

grassc%louisville.stortek@interlock.lexmark.com on 11/03/99 12:59:30 PM

Please respond to grassc%louisville.stortek@interlock.lexmark.com

To:   emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com
cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark)
Subject:  90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo




Hello standards sages..

We have a product that "stumbles" when the input voltage/freq
is 90V/47Hz.

My question is..

Is this a reasonable test combo? Does anyone know of
a country that falls in this range?

-
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Re: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-03 Thread Ron Pickard/Hypercom/US


Hi Chaz,

I'm sure the folks in Japan would certainly think it to be reasonable.
Power there is supplied at 100V 50Hz & 100V 60Hz depending where in Japan
you happen to be. Common input test conditions at 100V 50Hz line voltage
would be +6% (106V 53Hz) and -10% (90V 47Hz). As you can see, very
realistic. I also believe that Japan is the only country with such a power
distribution.

Best regards,
Ron Pickard
rpick...@hypercom.com





  
"Grasso, Charles
  
(Chaz)"  To: "'EMC Group'" 
  
   Subject: 90V & 47Hz - Is 
this a realistic combo  
Sent by:
  
owner-emc-pstc@ieee.o   
  
rg  
  

  

  
11/03/99 10:59 AM   
  
Please respond to   
  
"Grasso, Charles
  
(Chaz)" 
  

  

  



Hello standards sages..

We have a product that "stumbles" when the input voltage/freq
is 90V/47Hz.

My question is..

Is this a reasonable test combo? Does anyone know of
a country that falls in this range?

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Re: 90V & 47Hz - Is this a realistic combo

1999-11-03 Thread Egon H. Varju


Charles,

47 Hz is a bit silly, since no power grid in the world uses this 
frequency.  Perhaps a private motor generator ...  But if you are using a 
switching power supply, the input frequency is not usually important.


However, 90 V is reasonable.  Some countries, like Japan, have a nominal 
voltage of 100 V, so you would be expected to operate normally at -10% (at 
least).  In fact, Std. 950, and others, require testing at -10%.


Cheers,
Egon :-)

At 03:59 PM 03/11/1999 , you wrote:


Hello standards sages..

We have a product that "stumbles" when the input voltage/freq
is 90V/47Hz.

My question is..

Is this a reasonable test combo? Does anyone know of
a country that falls in this range?


__

Egon H. Varju, PEng
E.H. Varju & Associates Ltd.
North Vancouver, Canada

Tel:   1 604 985 5710 HAVE MODEM
Fax:  1 604 273 5815 WILL TRAVEL

E-mail:  e...@varju.bc.ca
   var...@csa.ca
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