Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Peter Tarver]

Ralph –



I’m less familiar with the CEC, but the NEC does not preclude 208/120 V WYE
to a single-family home (residence).  It all depends on how much one is
willing to pay the utility for the service and proper provisioning and
system design at the use location.





Peter Tarver



*From:* McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, October 22, 2015 15:00
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?



NEC art 210.4 and 210.5 seem to allow it and the CEC here in Canada
certainly allows it. For large residential highrises, it's probably simpler
and cost effective to distribute 120/208 throughout the building (1/3 of
the suites on one 208 leg, and so on)  Phase balancing would be part of the
building electrical plan.  Sending a single-phase MV feeder to 1MVA,
120/240V transformer is likely a comprehmise

It's different for low density residential where stringing a mile or two of
single-phase MV to feed 120/240 pole transformers throughout the
neighborhood makes more sense.

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[McDiarmid, Ralph]

NEC art 210.4 and 210.5 seem to allow it and the CEC here in Canada 
certainly allows it. For large residential highrises, it's probably 
simpler and cost effective to distribute 120/208 throughout the building 
(1/3 of the suites on one 208 leg, and so on)  Phase balancing would be 
part of the building electrical plan.  Sending a single-phase MV feeder to 
1MVA, 120/240V transformer is likely a comprehmise

It's different for low density residential where stringing a mile or two 
of single-phase MV to feed 120/240 pole transformers throughout the 
neighborhood makes more sense.
___ 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  | 
  Regulatory Compliance Engineering 
 



From:
"Nyffenegger, Dave" 
To:
"ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com" 
, "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" 
, 
Date:
10/22/2015 02:32 PM
Subject:
RE: [PSES] 208 split-phase?



I believe NFPA 70 specifies 120/240V for all residential household 
voltages.
-Dave
 
From: McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 5:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?
 
Most residential high-rise buildings distribute 120/208V throughout the 
building.   Electric ranges and dryers will run from 120/208V or 120/240V
___ 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  | 
  Regulatory Compliance Engineering 



From: 
Don Gies  
To: 
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, 
Date: 
10/22/2015 03:09 AM 
Subject: 
Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?
 




Peter, 
  
It doesn’t sound right.  Somebody may be describing a 120/240 V, 3-Wire 
system, and mixing it up with a 120/208 V, Y-connected power. 
  
Hope all is well. 
  
DON GIES 
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Room 5B-104
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA   
Phone: +1 908 582 5978
Mobile: +1 732 207 7828
don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com 
  
  
  
-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase? 
  
Good morning. 
  
There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about. 
  
I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V, 
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses. 
Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A 
specific area cited was "around Boston." 
  
Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system? 
  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected 
transformer? 
  
Peter Tarver 
ptar...@ieee.org 
  
- 
 
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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Ted Eckert]

Many utilities will specify 120 V utilization voltage with a tolerance that 
results in a range of 104 V – 127 V. Based on Mr. Tarver’s original submittal, 
I doubt that this 104 V is being confused for what he is asking about. However, 
it will at least offer it as a possibility.

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.com<mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 2:32 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

I believe NFPA 70 specifies 120/240V for all residential household voltages.
-Dave

From: McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 5:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

Most residential high-rise buildings distribute 120/208V throughout the 
building.   Electric ranges and dryers will run from 120/208V or 120/240V
___

Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  |   
Regulatory Compliance Engineering

From:

Don Gies mailto:don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com>>

To:

EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>,

Date:

10/22/2015 03:09 AM

Subject:

Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?






Peter,

It doesn’t sound right.  Somebody may be describing a 120/240 V, 3-Wire system, 
and mixing it up with a 120/208 V, Y-connected power.

Hope all is well.

DON GIES
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Room 5B-104
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA
Phone: +1 908 582 5978
Mobile: +1 732 207 7828
don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com>



-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

Good morning.

There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about.

I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V, 
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.
Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A specific 
area cited was "around Boston."

Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?
  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected 
transformer?

Peter Tarver
ptar...@ieee.org<mailto:ptar...@ieee.org>

-

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

I believe NFPA 70 specifies 120/240V for all residential household voltages.
-Dave

From: McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 5:19 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

Most residential high-rise buildings distribute 120/208V throughout the 
building.   Electric ranges and dryers will run from 120/208V or 120/240V
___

Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  |   
Regulatory Compliance Engineering


From:

Don Gies 

To:

EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG,

Date:

10/22/2015 03:09 AM

Subject:

Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?






Peter,

It doesn’t sound right.  Somebody may be describing a 120/240 V, 3-Wire system, 
and mixing it up with a 120/208 V, Y-connected power.

Hope all is well.

DON GIES
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Room 5B-104
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA
Phone: +1 908 582 5978
Mobile: +1 732 207 7828
don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com<mailto:don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com>



-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

Good morning.

There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about.

I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V, 
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.
Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A specific 
area cited was "around Boston."

Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?
  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected 
transformer?

Peter Tarver
ptar...@ieee.org<mailto:ptar...@ieee.org>

-

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[McDiarmid, Ralph]

Most residential high-rise buildings distribute 120/208V throughout the 
building.   Electric ranges and dryers will run from 120/208V or 120/240V
___ 


Ralph McDiarmid  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  | 
  Regulatory Compliance Engineering 




From:
Don Gies 
To:
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG, 
Date:
10/22/2015 03:09 AM
Subject:
Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?



Peter,
 
It doesn’t sound right.  Somebody may be describing a 120/240 V, 3-Wire 
system, and mixing it up with a 120/208 V, Y-connected power.
 
Hope all is well. 
 
DON GIES 
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Room 5B-104
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA   
Phone: +1 908 582 5978
Mobile: +1 732 207 7828
don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com
 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase?
 
Good morning.
 
There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about.
 
I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V, 
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.  
Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A 
specific area cited was "around Boston."
 
Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?
  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected 
transformer?
 
Peter Tarver
ptar...@ieee.org
 
-

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Robert Johnson]

Essentially all residential electrical services in the US are 120/240 
volt split phase services. Electricians call this single phase service. 
As an electrical engineer, I like to think of it as two phase service, 
with phases at 180 degrees. You will not find residential service 
provided 208 volts.
Many commercial and business sites use 120/208 volt three phase service. 
When portions of these sites do not need much power, for example a store 
tenant in a strip mall, they will often use inexpensive residential 
equipment like a 120/240V power panel and supply it with two phases of 
the three phase service. This means they have the normal 120 volt 
available at convenience outlets. If they have a 240 volt single phase 
appliance, it will be operating at 208 volts. Since most such appliances 
in the US are resistive loads like stoves, clothes dryers, etc. it just 
means the thermostat runs a longer cycle to get the heat needed. There 
is not much other 240 volt single phase equipment in the US. When 
necessary it often will run OK at 208 volts and no one notices the 
difference. Single phase motors are an exception but they often are 
provided with taps for 208, 240 and more options.
Note that unlike Europe, equipment in the US operating on 208 or 240 
volts will always be operating  across two hot phases (at 120V), not 
from a 240 volt hot phase to a grounded neutral. This can have an impact 
on disconnect switching, overcurrent protection and EMC filtering.

Bob Johnson




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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Don Gies]

Peter,

 

It doesn’t sound right.  Somebody may be describing a 120/240 V, 3-Wire
system, and mixing it up with a 120/208 V, Y-connected power.

 

Hope all is well. 

 

DON GIES 
ALCATEL-LUCENT
SENIOR PRODUCT COMPLIANCE ENGINEER
GLOBAL PRODUCT COMPLIANCE LABORATORY
600-700 Mountain Avenue
Room 5B-104
Murray Hill, NJ 07974-0636 USA   
Phone: +1 908 582 5978
Mobile: +1 732 207 7828
  don.g...@alcatel-lucent.com

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

 

Good morning.

 

There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about.

 

I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V,
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.  

Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A specific
area cited was "around Boston."

 

Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?

  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected
transformer?

 

Peter Tarver

  ptar...@ieee.org

 

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Been there, done that  with the fan too in order to test at +10%.
-Dave

From: Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 4:11 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

When I had that same task, I just bought a several kW Variac, connected it 
across the 208 VAC phase of a 3-phase feed, and used the Variac to increase the 
needed 5% or so. A big fan for the Variac can be cheaper than buying a really 
big Variac.


Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA


-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?



Brian,



Any significant impedance differences between these two supply configurations?



Brian

Sr Burrito Quality Control Engineer



-Original Message-

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:34 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?



I've never heard of a Utility Company providing 208 "split-phase".



I have heard the term "208 split-phase" many times from our customers who claim 
to have this but in reality what they have is 208 3-phase wired into a 230V 
split-phase receptacle but only using 208 Phase to Phase with the Grounded 
Neutral.



In our EMC lab, we do not have a true 220 split-phase so we use 208 with a 
grounded neutral. It is the closest thing we have to test 220 volt household 
appliances like ranges, ovens, microwaves, and dryers.  We know it is not 
exactly the same but close.



The Other Brian





-Original Message-

From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@ieee.org]

Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase?



Good morning.



There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about.



I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V, 
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.

Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A specific 
area cited was "around Boston."



Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?

  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected 
transformer?



Peter Tarver

ptar...@ieee.org<mailto:ptar...@ieee.org>



-



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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Kunde, Brian]

Peter,

"208 V single-phase" is the correct term but when people uses the grounded 
neutral to drive 120V circuits then they often refer to it as "208 
Split-Phase". It really isn't "split-phase" unless it is derived by a center 
tapped transformer secondary. But in most cases it works, so why not call it 
that?

Non-Burrito Brian

-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 4:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

Brian of the nonburrito ilk -

This is usually called 208 V single-phase.

I'm still trying to clarify the specifics of the request.

Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Kunde, Brian
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:34
>
> snip <
>
> I have heard the term "208 split-phase" many times from our customers
> who claim to have this but in reality what they have is 208 3-phase
> wired into a 230V split-phase receptacle but only using 208 Phase to
> Phase with the Grounded Neutral.
>
> snip <

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Peter Tarver]

Doug –



I’m not certain what I’m referring to. Hence the question.  Since typical
120/240 V split-phase distribution in the US is from a center grounded
delta, my inclination is to believe this follows that same method.  Or the
original proposition I received is incorrect and a three-phase WYE is used
on the load side of the distribution transformer.



I think I prefer “bastard leg.”





Peter T



*From:* Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 21, 2015 09:01
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?



Peter,

The idea of a 208 V split phase is unusual and probably not the case here.
The number 208 is obviously derived from a three phase system.

I believe the system you are talking about is a red-leg or high-leg three
phase system.  Wikipedia does have a good review in this case (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power).  In the figure
on Wikipedia this is a 240 VAC delta with the neutral applied between L1 &
L2, creating 120 V split-phases in 180 degree opposition.  The 208 is the
high leg, L3 in the figure.  You can verify the voltages using the bit of
trig further down the page. This voltage system is used in many parts of
the world but is no longer very common in the USA.

The alternative system this could be is a 416 V three phase, delta
configured with split phase secondaries at 208 V.  I have worked with this
configuration in the past.

All the best, Doug




doug...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01



‎



On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Peter Tarver  wrote:

Good morning.

There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear
about.

I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208
V, split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.
Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A
specific area cited was "around Boston."

Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?
  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE
connected transformer?

Peter Tarver
ptar...@ieee.org

-

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emc-p...@ieee.org>

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-- 



Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Peter Tarver]

Brian of the nonburrito ilk -

This is usually called 208 V single-phase.

I'm still trying to clarify the specifics of the request.

Peter Tarver

> -Original Message-
> From: Kunde, Brian
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:34
>
> snip <
>
> I have heard the term "208 split-phase" many times from our
> customers who claim to have this but in reality what they have
> is 208 3-phase wired into a 230V split-phase receptacle but
> only using 208 Phase to Phase with the Grounded Neutral.
>
> snip <

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Ed Price]

When I had that same task, I just bought a several kW Variac, connected it
across the 208 VAC phase of a 3-phase feed, and used the Variac to increase
the needed 5% or so. A big fan for the Variac can be cheaper than buying a
really big Variac.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

 

-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:48 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

 

Brian,

 

Any significant impedance differences between these two supply
configurations?

 

Brian

Sr Burrito Quality Control Engineer

 

-Original Message-

From: Kunde, Brian [ <mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>
mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:34 PM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

 

I've never heard of a Utility Company providing 208 "split-phase".

 

I have heard the term "208 split-phase" many times from our customers who
claim to have this but in reality what they have is 208 3-phase wired into a
230V split-phase receptacle but only using 208 Phase to Phase with the
Grounded Neutral.

 

In our EMC lab, we do not have a true 220 split-phase so we use 208 with a
grounded neutral. It is the closest thing we have to test 220 volt household
appliances like ranges, ovens, microwaves, and dryers.  We know it is not
exactly the same but close.

 

The Other Brian

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Peter Tarver [ <mailto:ptar...@ieee.org> mailto:ptar...@ieee.org]

Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM

To:  <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

 

Good morning.

 

There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about.

 

I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V,
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.

Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A specific
area cited was "around Boston."

 

Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?

  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected
transformer?

 

Peter Tarver

 <mailto:ptar...@ieee.org> ptar...@ieee.org

 

-



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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Brian O'Connell]

Brian,

Any significant impedance differences between these two supply configurations?

Brian
Sr Burrito Quality Control Engineer

-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

I've never heard of a Utility Company providing 208 "split-phase".

I have heard the term "208 split-phase" many times from our customers who claim 
to have this but in reality what they have is 208 3-phase wired into a 230V 
split-phase receptacle but only using 208 Phase to Phase with the Grounded 
Neutral.

In our EMC lab, we do not have a true 220 split-phase so we use 208 with a 
grounded neutral. It is the closest thing we have to test 220 volt household 
appliances like ranges, ovens, microwaves, and dryers.  We know it is not 
exactly the same but close.

The Other Brian


-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

Good morning.

There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about.

I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V, 
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.
Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A specific 
area cited was "around Boston."

Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?
  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected 
transformer?

Peter Tarver
ptar...@ieee.org

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Kunde, Brian]

I've never heard of a Utility Company providing 208 "split-phase".

I have heard the term "208 split-phase" many times from our customers who claim 
to have this but in reality what they have is 208 3-phase wired into a 230V 
split-phase receptacle but only using 208 Phase to Phase with the Grounded 
Neutral.

In our EMC lab, we do not have a true 220 split-phase so we use 208 with a 
grounded neutral. It is the closest thing we have to test 220 volt household 
appliances like ranges, ovens, microwaves, and dryers.  We know it is not 
exactly the same but close.

The Other Brian


-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 10:22 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

Good morning.

There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear about.

I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208 V, 
split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.
Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A specific 
area cited was "around Boston."

Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?
  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE connected 
transformer?

Peter Tarver
ptar...@ieee.org

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Ted Eckert]

Although I agree with Doug in general, I will note that Massachusetts has 40 
independent municipally owned electrical utilities. I have no evidence of 104 
VAC supply, but it is possible that one of the 40 utilities supports an unusual 
legacy system.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/225880245/Electric-Utility-Map-of-Massachusetts#scribd

Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.com<mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 9:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

Peter,

The idea of a 208 V split phase is unusual and probably not the case here. The 
number 208 is obviously derived from a three phase system.
I believe the system you are talking about is a red-leg or high-leg three phase 
system.  Wikipedia does have a good review in this case 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fHigh-leg_delta&data=01%7c01%7cted.eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7cb92b2dd1e2264a1c549c08d2da312353%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=5JLeTECGXbKMqrfstHvfHOE1HVHP9iPAiTr97oOd8gE%3d>;
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fen.wikipedia.org%2fwiki%2fSplit-phase_electric_power&data=01%7c01%7cted.eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7cb92b2dd1e2264a1c549c08d2da312353%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=O0jRZIZasEx2Wp1DrU0TPLY3MuvzWQFLvsq%2blXmk1xk%3d>).
  In the figure on Wikipedia this is a 240 VAC delta with the neutral applied 
between L1 & L2, creating 120 V split-phases in 180 degree opposition.  The 208 
is the high leg, L3 in the figure.  You can verify the voltages using the bit 
of trig further down the page. This voltage system is used in many parts of the 
world but is no longer very common in the USA.
The alternative system this could be is a 416 V three phase, delta configured 
with split phase secondaries at 208 V.  I have worked with this configuration 
in the past.
All the best, Doug


doug...@gmail.com<mailto:doug...@gmail.com>

http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.linkedin.com%2fin%2fdougp01&data=01%7c01%7cted.eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7cb92b2dd1e2264a1c549c08d2da312353%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=sgyB68YyNw6m3KnEiym3mwtxHQW8XlJ8aKS%2fMwhJjTM%3d>

‎

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Peter Tarver 
mailto:ptar...@ieee.org>> wrote:
Good morning.

There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear
about.

I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208
V, split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.
Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A
specific area cited was "around Boston."

Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?
  Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE
connected transformer?

Peter Tarver
ptar...@ieee.org<mailto:ptar...@ieee.org>

-

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Re: [PSES] 208 split-phase?

[Doug Powell]

Peter,

The idea of a 208 V split phase is unusual and probably not the case here.
The number 208 is obviously derived from a three phase system.

I believe the system you are talking about is a red-leg or high-leg three
phase system.  Wikipedia does have a good review in this case (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power).  In the figure
on Wikipedia this is a 240 VAC delta with the neutral applied between L1 &
L2, creating 120 V split-phases in 180 degree opposition.  The 208 is the
high leg, L3 in the figure.  You can verify the voltages using the bit of
trig further down the page. This voltage system is used in many parts of
the world but is no longer very common in the USA.

The alternative system this could be is a 416 V three phase, delta
configured with split phase secondaries at 208 V.  I have worked with this
configuration in the past.

All the best, Doug



doug...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


‎

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Peter Tarver  wrote:

> Good morning.
>
> There are oftensmall, legacy grids that you come across or hear
> about.
>
> I was recently told that some areas of the Northeast US have a 208
> V, split-phase power system to some residences and small businesses.
> Still 180° phase-to-phase and presumably 104 V phase-to-Neutral.  A
> specific area cited was "around Boston."
>
> Has anyone heard of or directly experienced this voltage system?
>   Is it split-phase or was I misinformed and it's from a WYE
> connected transformer?
>
> Peter Tarver
> ptar...@ieee.org
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
>



-- 

Douglas E Powell

doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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