Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Richard Nute]

My understanding:

Receptacles are not de-rated.  

A single load cannot exceed 80% (or some such percentage) of the branch circuit 
loading to allow other loads on the same branch circuit.   If a single 
receptacle on the branch circuit, then the (single) load can be 100% of the 
branch circuit rating.

In the USA, a 15-amp receptacle can be used on a 20-amp branch circuit.  Since 
we don't know if the branch circuit is 15- or 20-amps, we assume the load is 
always connected to a 15-amp branch circuit with multiple receptacles.  

Rich


-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 2:56 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

There may be a “disconnect” between SDO (standards development) and code 
writing panels at the NFPA.  For example, the 125% rule in 
Article 690 is there because the NFPA thinks that the standard test conditions 
for solar panels aren’t realistic.  They think 1,000W/sq-m irradiance is too 
low, and short circuit PV currents need a 1.25 multiplier.   

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would 
need to be updated? 

It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the 
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and 
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed. 
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It 
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or 
New York City. 

Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, but it 
would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a mismatch of 
circuits, circuit protection and loads would be significant for a long time. I 
suspect that by the time the technology evolved to the point where the 
requirement could be eliminated, it was too late and eliminating it would 
result in too much expense and rework.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer. 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are realistic and 
do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at some point in the 
distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some connectors in wide use 
were found to overheat at rated current, so the 'derating rule' was brought in, 
and no-one has challenged it since.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cb9a5abba70d24e2f093e08d51018031b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432617679408094=jNpj%2FFhCHx9ir37o7Xf5GxovOe2h0nU9FIZnbo5mItE%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 20:12, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the 
all-too-familiar 125% rule.  Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same 
requirement.  The IEC seems to have avoided it.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
D  604-422-2622

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps. 

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps? 

Thanks

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Not sure if your question is specific to NEC or not.  There are other 
standards, for example UL 508A that have similar rules that are not specific to 
circuit sizes.

And the rules are not all straight forward as they apply to conductor sizing, 
branch circuit protection, connectors/components, etc. and the type of loads.   
For example NFPA 70 210.20 (A) states  “Where a branch circuit supplies 
continuous loads or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the 
rating of the overcurrent device shall not be less than the noncontinuous load 
plus 125 percent of the continuous load.  Exception: Where the assembly, 
including the overcurrent devices protecting the branch circuit(s), is listed 
for operationat 100 percent of its rating, the ampere rating of the overcurrent 
device shall be permitted to be not less than the sum of the continuous load 
plus the noncontinuous load.” without mentioning anything about circuit size.

-Dave

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 3:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

One last quick question, if I may, while we are all up on the NEC.

Just to confirm, the 80% rule only applies to 15A, 20A, and 30A branch 
circuits. 40A and 50A branch circuits do not have the 80% rule, even in a 
multiple-outlet configuration? I know these larger circuits are generally 
dedicated circuits, but that is how the rules read in the NEC 210.23(C). Unless 
I’m missing something.

Thanks bunches.
The Other Brian

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 2:57 PM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13


Yes, of course quite a thin conductor will carry enough current to operate the 
protection, because it doesn't have time to get seriously hot.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-11 19:35, Kunde, Brian wrote:

I know I started this thread, so I'm going to circuit back via another 
direction.



The NEC allows a product with an 18 awg power cord (rated 10 amps), a 15 amp 
plug, and C13 IEC connector (15 amp) to be plugged into a 15 amp branch 
circuit. OH, you can also plug it into a 20 amp branch circuit because the 
receptacles will accept a 15 amp plug. So what protects the freakishly small 18 
awg power cord from bursting into flames in an overload condition?  Must be the 
OverCurrent Protection device in the product itself. Correct?



So back to original questions, can I use a power cord with a 20 amp plug (NEMA 
5-20P), 12 awg wire, and 15 amp IEC C13 connector on a product that draws 15 
amps and has a double pole 15 amp OCPD?  With the same logic above, the OCP 
device is protecting the power cord.



Would you allow this?  Then again, your you allow a 18awg power cord to be used 
on a 15 amp circuit?  The NEC says it is ok.



Thanks,

The Other Brian



-Original Message-

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:30 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?



-Dave



-Original Message-

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]

Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



Ralph, Ted et al,



Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...



:>) br,  Pete



Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427



503/452-1201



p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>



-Original Message-

From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



Sounds like an examp

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Ralph McDiarmid]

NEC article 210 writes about “branch circuits” up to 600V.  I didn’t see a 
limit on current, so we’ve always applied it to OCP and ampacity for all 
conductors on circuits where the current is expected to be “continuous”, as 
defined in the code.  ( we go up to 2000A on a 575V circuit on a custom 
transformer, dedicated circuit)

>From chapter II:  "Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads or any 
>combination of continuous and non-continuous loads, the minimum branch-circuit 
>conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity not less than the 
>non-continuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load."

It's easy for our equipment where it is always supplied by a dedicated "branch 
circuit" (often a dedicated transformer) and current is continuous by 
definition. (> 3hrs)

Strictly speaking,  it's a 125% rule, not an 80% rule

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 12:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

One last quick question, if I may, while we are all up on the NEC.

Just to confirm, the 80% rule only applies to 15A, 20A, and 30A branch 
circuits. 40A and 50A branch circuits do not have the 80% rule, even in a 
multiple-outlet configuration? I know these larger circuits are generally 
dedicated circuits, but that is how the rules read in the NEC 210.23(C). Unless 
I’m missing something. 

Thanks bunches.
The Other Brian

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 2:57 PM
To: Kunde, Brian; mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, of course quite a thin conductor will carry enough current to operate the 
protection, because it doesn't have time to get seriously hot.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates http://www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-11 19:35, Kunde, Brian wrote:
I know I started this thread, so I'm going to circuit back via another 
direction.

The NEC allows a product with an 18 awg power cord (rated 10 amps), a 15 amp 
plug, and C13 IEC connector (15 amp) to be plugged into a 15 amp branch 
circuit. OH, you can also plug it into a 20 amp branch circuit because the 
receptacles will accept a 15 amp plug. So what protects the freakishly small 18 
awg power cord from bursting into flames in an overload condition?  Must be the 
OverCurrent Protection device in the product itself. Correct?

So back to original questions, can I use a power cord with a 20 amp plug (NEMA 
5-20P), 12 awg wire, and 15 amp IEC C13 connector on a product that draws 15 
amps and has a double pole 15 amp OCPD?  With the same logic above, the OCP 
device is protecting the power cord.

Would you allow this?  Then again, your you allow a 18awg power cord to be used 
on a 15 amp circuit?  The NEC says it is ok.

Thanks,
The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:30 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Ralph, Ted et al,

    Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)    Carry on! As you 
were doing...

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16)

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Kunde, Brian]

One last quick question, if I may, while we are all up on the NEC.

Just to confirm, the 80% rule only applies to 15A, 20A, and 30A branch 
circuits. 40A and 50A branch circuits do not have the 80% rule, even in a 
multiple-outlet configuration? I know these larger circuits are generally 
dedicated circuits, but that is how the rules read in the NEC 210.23(C). Unless 
I’m missing something.

Thanks bunches.
The Other Brian

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 2:57 PM
To: Kunde, Brian; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13


Yes, of course quite a thin conductor will carry enough current to operate the 
protection, because it doesn't have time to get seriously hot.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-11 19:35, Kunde, Brian wrote:

I know I started this thread, so I'm going to circuit back via another 
direction.



The NEC allows a product with an 18 awg power cord (rated 10 amps), a 15 amp 
plug, and C13 IEC connector (15 amp) to be plugged into a 15 amp branch 
circuit. OH, you can also plug it into a 20 amp branch circuit because the 
receptacles will accept a 15 amp plug. So what protects the freakishly small 18 
awg power cord from bursting into flames in an overload condition?  Must be the 
OverCurrent Protection device in the product itself. Correct?



So back to original questions, can I use a power cord with a 20 amp plug (NEMA 
5-20P), 12 awg wire, and 15 amp IEC C13 connector on a product that draws 15 
amps and has a double pole 15 amp OCPD?  With the same logic above, the OCP 
device is protecting the power cord.



Would you allow this?  Then again, your you allow a 18awg power cord to be used 
on a 15 amp circuit?  The NEC says it is ok.



Thanks,

The Other Brian



-Original Message-

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:30 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?



-Dave



-Original Message-

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]

Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



Ralph, Ted et al,



Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...



:>) br,  Pete



Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427



503/452-1201



p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>



-Original Message-

From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]

Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16)



Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric





From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]

Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.



Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation



The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.



From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]

Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM

To: Ted Eckert 
<mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com><mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[John Woodgate]

Yes, of course quite a thin conductor will carry enough current to 
operate the protection, because it doesn't have time to get seriously hot.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-10-11 19:35, Kunde, Brian wrote:

I know I started this thread, so I'm going to circuit back via another 
direction.

The NEC allows a product with an 18 awg power cord (rated 10 amps), a 15 amp 
plug, and C13 IEC connector (15 amp) to be plugged into a 15 amp branch 
circuit. OH, you can also plug it into a 20 amp branch circuit because the 
receptacles will accept a 15 amp plug. So what protects the freakishly small 18 
awg power cord from bursting into flames in an overload condition?  Must be the 
OverCurrent Protection device in the product itself. Correct?

So back to original questions, can I use a power cord with a 20 amp plug (NEMA 
5-20P), 12 awg wire, and 15 amp IEC C13 connector on a product that draws 15 
amps and has a double pole 15 amp OCPD?  With the same logic above, the OCP 
device is protecting the power cord.

Would you allow this?  Then again, your you allow a 18awg power cord to be used 
on a 15 amp circuit?  The NEC says it is ok.

Thanks,
The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Ralph, Ted et al,

 Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and not 
leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise to the 
80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the user must 
have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet (only one plug 
available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which gives rise to the 
marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you were doing...

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16)

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical 

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Since you're asking for an opinion and since IEC would allow it, I think it's 
reasonable to allow it in N.Am too.  There is no apparent hazard; the 15A OCPD 
adequately protects both the connector and the cordage.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


-Original Message-
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 11:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

I know I started this thread, so I'm going to circuit back via another 
direction.

The NEC allows a product with an 18 awg power cord (rated 10 amps), a 15 amp 
plug, and C13 IEC connector (15 amp) to be plugged into a 15 amp branch 
circuit. OH, you can also plug it into a 20 amp branch circuit because the 
receptacles will accept a 15 amp plug. So what protects the freakishly small 18 
awg power cord from bursting into flames in an overload condition?  Must be the 
OverCurrent Protection device in the product itself. Correct?

So back to original questions, can I use a power cord with a 20 amp plug (NEMA 
5-20P), 12 awg wire, and 15 amp IEC C13 connector on a product that draws 15 
amps and has a double pole 15 amp OCPD?  With the same logic above, the OCP 
device is protecting the power cord.

Would you allow this?  Then again, your you allow a 18awg power cord to be used 
on a 15 amp circuit?  The NEC says it is ok.

Thanks,
The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Ralph, Ted et al,

Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16)

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Kunde, Brian]

I know I started this thread, so I'm going to circuit back via another 
direction.

The NEC allows a product with an 18 awg power cord (rated 10 amps), a 15 amp 
plug, and C13 IEC connector (15 amp) to be plugged into a 15 amp branch 
circuit. OH, you can also plug it into a 20 amp branch circuit because the 
receptacles will accept a 15 amp plug. So what protects the freakishly small 18 
awg power cord from bursting into flames in an overload condition?  Must be the 
OverCurrent Protection device in the product itself. Correct?

So back to original questions, can I use a power cord with a 20 amp plug (NEMA 
5-20P), 12 awg wire, and 15 amp IEC C13 connector on a product that draws 15 
amps and has a double pole 15 amp OCPD?  With the same logic above, the OCP 
device is protecting the power cord.

Would you allow this?  Then again, your you allow a 18awg power cord to be used 
on a 15 amp circuit?  The NEC says it is ok.

Thanks,
The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Ralph, Ted et al,

Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16)

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national st

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

For sure the A/C unit was not the original and it's possible the original had a 
NEMA 5-20P plug.  It's only cooling the small bedroom and bath.  The unit is 
rated 8.6A and the nameplate (picture of which is in my files) says in big bold 
letters USE ON SINGLE OUTLET CIRCUIT ONLY.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:peperkin...@cs.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:39 PM
To: Nyffenegger, Dave; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Dave,

The question is what was the rated current on the A/C unit?  With the 
15A plug it was probably rated at 12A unless it clearly specified a 'dedicated 
circuit'.  I guess it's too long ago to go check on it.  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:30 AM
To: Pete Perkins <peperkin...@cs.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Ralph, Ted et al,

Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16) 
 

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national sta

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Kunde, Brian]

All,

So the NEC allows you to draw the full 15 amps from a 15 amp receptacle IF it 
is on a dedicated circuit. BUT if the circuit is wired to more than one 
receptacle, then the product cannot draw more than 12 amps.  What difference 
does that make? Same product, same power cord, same plug and receptacle. The 
only difference I see is with a dedicated circuit is you have no chance to 
accidently overload the branch circuit by plugging in too many loads. But why 
is this Code? You can always overload a branch circuit with multiple outlets 
even with the 80% rule.

I've always been told that the 80% rule applies to receptacles to keep them 
from overheating. BUT, if the code allows a full 15 amp load on a 15 amp 
plug/receptacle with a dedicated circuit, then it must not have anything to do 
with the cord-and-plug connection.

Many NRTL inspectors has told me that a product "cannot be rated" more than 80% 
of the "plug rating", period. Because even if we specify in our manual to use a 
"dedicated circuit", most people won't. Canada seems to be most strict with 
this rule.  They have made us change our plug and power cord to a 20 amp on 
such products. This has caused us so much grief in the past that now we follow 
the 80% rule on everything.

The Other Brian

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:39 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Dave,

The question is what was the rated current on the A/C unit?  With the 
15A plug it was probably rated at 12A unless it clearly specified a 'dedicated 
circuit'.  I guess it's too long ago to go check on it.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:30 AM
To: Pete Perkins <peperkin...@cs.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Ralph, Ted et al,

Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16)

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Ralph, Ted et al,

Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16) 
 

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would 
need to be updated? 
 
It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the 
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and 
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed. 
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It 
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or 
New York City. 
 
Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, but it 
would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a mismatch of 
circuits, circuit protection and loads would be significant for a long time. I 
suspect that by the time the technology evolved to the point where the 
requirement could be eliminated, it was too late and eliminating it would 
result in too much expense and rework.
 
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
 
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer. 
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
 

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Pete Perkins]

Dave,

The question is what was the rated current on the A/C unit?  With the 
15A plug it was probably rated at 12A unless it clearly specified a 'dedicated 
circuit'.  I guess it's too long ago to go check on it.  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:30 AM
To: Pete Perkins <peperkin...@cs.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Had a condo  with  a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.  
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the 
A/C unit.  In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a 
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit.  Guess which one the A/C was 
plugged into?

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Ralph, Ted et al,

Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, 
ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16) 
 

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would 
need to be updated? 
 
It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the 
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and 
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed. 
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It 
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or 
New York City. 
 
Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Pete Perkins]

Ralph, Ted et al,

Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project 
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and 
not leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise 
to the 80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the 
user must have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet 
(only one plug available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which 
gives rise to the marketing folks nixing the idea.  :>)Carry on! As you 
were doing...  

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16) 
 

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would 
need to be updated? 
 
It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the 
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and 
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed. 
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It 
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or 
New York City. 
 
Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, but it 
would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a mismatch of 
circuits, circuit protection and loads would be significant for a long time. I 
suspect that by the time the technology evolved to the point where the 
requirement could be eliminated, it was too late and eliminating it would 
result in too much expense and rework.
 
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
 
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer. 
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
 
Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are realistic and 
do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at some point in the 
distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some connectors in wide use 
were found to overheat at rated current, so the 'derating rule' was brought in, 
and no-one has challenged it since.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cb9a5abba70d24

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current.  (20/16) 
 

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; 
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would 
need to be updated? 
 
It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the 
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and 
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed. 
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It 
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or 
New York City. 
 
Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, but it 
would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a mismatch of 
circuits, circuit protection and loads would be significant for a long time. I 
suspect that by the time the technology evolved to the point where the 
requirement could be eliminated, it was too late and eliminating it would 
result in too much expense and rework.
 
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
 
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer. 
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
 
Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are realistic and 
do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at some point in the 
distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some connectors in wide use 
were found to overheat at rated current, so the 'derating rule' was brought in, 
and no-one has challenged it since.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cb9a5abba70d24e2f093e08d51018031b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432617679408094=jNpj%2FFhCHx9ir37o7Xf5GxovOe2h0nU9FIZnbo5mItE%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 20:12, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the 
all-too-familiar 125% rule.  Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same 
requirement.  The IEC seems to have avoided it.
 
Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
D  604-422-2622
 
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
 
It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps. 
 
IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connec

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Ted Eckert]

NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of 
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing 
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted 
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <ted.eck...@microsoft.com>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13


Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how 
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can 
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D=0>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would 
need to be updated?

It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the 
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and 
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed. 
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It 
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or 
New York City.

Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, but it 
would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a mismatch of 
circuits, circuit protection and loads would be significant for a long time. I 
suspect that by the time the technology evolved to the point where the 
requirement could be eliminated, it was too late and eliminating it would 
result in too much expense and rework.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13


Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are realistic and 
do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at some point in the 
distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some connectors in wide use 
were found to overheat at rated current, so the 'derating rule' was brought in, 
and no-one has challenged it since.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cb9a5abba70d24e2f093e08d51018031b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432617679408094=jNpj%2FFhCHx9ir37o7Xf5GxovOe2h0nU9FIZnbo5mItE%3D=0>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 20:12, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:

The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the 
all-too-familiar 125% rule.  Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same 
requirement.  The IEC seems to have avoided it.



Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

D  604-422-2622



From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]

Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps.



IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?



So here is the big question:



If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps?



T

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[John Woodgate]

Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so 
how about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that 
you can only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:


The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, 
argued and rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains 
because nobody has challenged it. Part of the issue is that the 
electrical infrastructure in the U.S. has been developed around this 
rule. If affects circuit breaker trip curves, conduit fill, wire sizes 
and rating and many other aspects of a building’s electrical system. 
If the rule were changed, would there be problems switching over? 
Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit breakers 
were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards 
would need to be updated?


It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive 
on the road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, 
traffic signals and road markings all had to be changed. Headlights 
had to be adjusted or re-aimed. For quite a while, there was a mix of 
left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It was a massive undertaking for 
a country with fewer people than either London or New York City.


Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, 
but it would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a 
mismatch of circuits, circuit protection and loads would be 
significant for a long time. I suspect that by the time the technology 
evolved to the point where the requirement could be eliminated, it was 
too late and eliminating it would result in too much expense and rework.


Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those 
of my employer.


*From:*John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
*Sent:* Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are 
realistic and do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at 
some point in the distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some 
connectors in wide use were found to overheat at rated current, so the 
'derating rule' was brought in, and no-one has challenged it since.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associateswww.woodjohn.uk 
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cb9a5abba70d24e2f093e08d51018031b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432617679408094=jNpj%2FFhCHx9ir37o7Xf5GxovOe2h0nU9FIZnbo5mItE%3D=0>

Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-10-10 20:12, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:

The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the 
all-too-familiar 125% rule.  Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same 
requirement.  The IEC seems to have avoided it.

Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

D  604-422-2622

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]

Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM

To:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 
amp receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated 
to 16 amps.

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate 
them as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the 
other end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps?

Thanks to all.

The Other Brian



LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to<emc-p...@ieee.org> 
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>

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Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Ralph McDiarmid]

There may be a “disconnect” between SDO (standards development) and code 
writing panels at the NFPA.  For example, the 125% rule in 
Article 690 is there because the NFPA thinks that the standard test conditions 
for solar panels aren’t realistic.  They think 1,000W/sq-m irradiance is too 
low, and short circuit PV currents need a 1.25 multiplier.   

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 1:58 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would 
need to be updated? 

It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the 
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and 
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed. 
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It 
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or 
New York City. 

Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, but it 
would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a mismatch of 
circuits, circuit protection and loads would be significant for a long time. I 
suspect that by the time the technology evolved to the point where the 
requirement could be eliminated, it was too late and eliminating it would 
result in too much expense and rework.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer. 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are realistic and 
do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at some point in the 
distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some connectors in wide use 
were found to overheat at rated current, so the 'derating rule' was brought in, 
and no-one has challenged it since.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cb9a5abba70d24e2f093e08d51018031b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432617679408094=jNpj%2FFhCHx9ir37o7Xf5GxovOe2h0nU9FIZnbo5mItE%3D=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 20:12, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the 
all-too-familiar 125% rule.  Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same 
requirement.  The IEC seems to have avoided it.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
D  604-422-2622

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps. 

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps? 

Thanks to all.
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 

-

-

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for gr

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Ted Eckert]

The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and 
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has 
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the 
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip 
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a 
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems 
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit 
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of 
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would 
need to be updated?

It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the 
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and 
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed. 
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It 
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or 
New York City.

Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, but it 
would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a mismatch of 
circuits, circuit protection and loads would be significant for a long time. I 
suspect that by the time the technology evolved to the point where the 
requirement could be eliminated, it was too late and eliminating it would 
result in too much expense and rework.

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13


Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are realistic and 
do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at some point in the 
distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some connectors in wide use 
were found to overheat at rated current, so the 'derating rule' was brought in, 
and no-one has challenged it since.

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates 
www.woodjohn.uk<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cb9a5abba70d24e2f093e08d51018031b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432617679408094=jNpj%2FFhCHx9ir37o7Xf5GxovOe2h0nU9FIZnbo5mItE%3D=0>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 20:12, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:

The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the 
all-too-familiar 125% rule.  Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same 
requirement.  The IEC seems to have avoided it.



Ralph McDiarmid

Product Compliance

Engineering

Solar Business

Schneider Electric

D  604-422-2622



From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]

Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM

To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>

Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13



It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps.



IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?



So here is the big question:



If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps?



Thanks to all.

The Other Brian



LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.



-



This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[John Woodgate]

Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are 
realistic and do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at 
some point in the distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some 
connectors in wide use were found to overheat at rated current, so the 
'derating rule' was brought in, and no-one has challenged it since.


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-10-10 20:12, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:

The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the 
all-too-familiar 125% rule.  Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same 
requirement.  The IEC seems to have avoided it.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
D  604-422-2622

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps.

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps?

Thanks to all.
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
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Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
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David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Ralph McDiarmid]

The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the 
all-too-familiar 125% rule.  Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same 
requirement.  The IEC seems to have avoided it.

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
D  604-422-2622

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps. 

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps? 

Thanks to all.
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

The C13 to C20 is probably akin to using a NEMA 5-15P into a 20A branch circuit 
outlet where there is special allowance for this under NEC.  The C14 to C19 
seems a little more fishy.   Perhaps for where the C20 inlet was standard in a 
product that was configurable and had a range of input current depending on 
configuration where some configurations only needed the lower current supply?

-Dave

From: IBM Ken [mailto:ibm...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 5:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Is it not also true that you don't have to follow the derating if you are using 
a single-outlet circuit (ie the breaker only supplies one single outlet)?  I 
thought I remembered that being the case, but I can't quote chapter and verse.

To add to the list of weird (yet NRTL marked) cables; what about a C13 to C20 
(or C14 to C19) jumper?  I can see cases where this is justifiable, but it just 
feels wrong:

https://www.stayonline.com/power-iec-c20-c13-cords.aspx

https://www.stayonline.com/iec-c14-to-c19-15-amp.aspx

-Ken A

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Ted Eckert 
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>>
 wrote:
Hello Brian,

This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads. NFPA 70, 
section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the requirement for the 80% 
derating. However, it states: “Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads 
or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the minimum 
branch-circuit conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity not less than 
the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.”

“Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A hairdryer or 
microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either have too many dogs and 
need to stop walking them in the rain or you like cooking food until it tastes 
like charcoal.)

The problem is that a detachable cord with an appliance coupler could be used 
with any product. Unless it has a built-in timer, you have no way of 
guaranteeing that it won’t be used with a product that draws current for less 
than 3 hours. There may be “non-continuous” loads with an appliance coupler and 
rated for 15 A. As such, I would expect such a detachable cord to need to be 
rated for at least 15 A.

A cord with a NEMA 5-20P would then be prohibited from having a C13 connector 
at the other end. It would need a C19 instead.

That being said, for some specialty industries, you can find some strange 
combinations of plugs and receptacles.
http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Kunde, Brian 
[mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com<mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com>]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps.

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps?

Thanks to all.
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
<emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>>

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Ccd07d70741384ef672a708d50f2ad7c1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636431599042974081=KPn0zexfjGkIaute9FWGP4vvV00uCRcuq6GtjQwrsoc%3D=0>

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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 can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[IBM Ken]

Is it not also true that you don't have to follow the derating if you are
using a single-outlet circuit (ie the breaker only supplies one single
outlet)?  I thought I remembered that being the case, but I can't quote
chapter and verse.

To add to the list of weird (yet NRTL marked) cables; what about a C13 to
C20 (or C14 to C19) jumper?  I can see cases where this is justifiable, but
it just feels wrong:

https://www.stayonline.com/power-iec-c20-c13-cords.aspx

https://www.stayonline.com/iec-c14-to-c19-15-amp.aspx

-Ken A

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Ted Eckert <
07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote:

> Hello Brian,
>
>
>
> This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads.
> NFPA 70, section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the requirement for
> the 80% derating. However, it states: “Where a branch circuit supplies
> continuous loads or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads,
> the minimum branch-circuit conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity
> not less than the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous
> load.”
>
>
>
> “Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A
> hairdryer or microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either have
> too many dogs and need to stop walking them in the rain or you like cooking
> food until it tastes like charcoal.)
>
>
>
> The problem is that a detachable cord with an appliance coupler could be
> used with any product. Unless it has a built-in timer, you have no way of
> guaranteeing that it won’t be used with a product that draws current for
> less than 3 hours. There may be “non-continuous” loads with an appliance
> coupler and rated for 15 A. As such, I would expect such a detachable cord
> to need to be rated for at least 15 A.
>
>
>
> A cord with a NEMA 5-20P would then be prohibited from having a C13
> connector at the other end. It would need a C19 instead.
>
>
>
> That being said, for some specialty industries, you can find some strange
> combinations of plugs and receptacles.
>
> http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504
>
>
>
> Ted Eckert
>
> Microsoft Corporation
>
>
>
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of
> my employer.
>
>
>
> *From:* Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 8:31 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
>
>
>
> It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15
> amp receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are
> derated to 16 amps.
>
>
>
> IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate
> them as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?
>
>
>
> So here is the big question:
>
>
>
> If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the
> other end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord
> with a product rated 15 amps?
>
>
>
> Thanks to all.
>
> The Other Brian
> --
> *LECO Corporation Notice:* This communication may contain confidential
> information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this
> by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
> 
> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> 
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> 

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Pete Perkins]

Brian, et al,



My apologies for not following up in enuf detail to determine 
that the power-cord in only a UR Recognized component, not a fully UL Listed 
unit (2 for components and has Conditions of Acceptability).  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 12:14 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

This looks like a strange one.  I’d be verifying the actual UL 
certificate/listing on that stayonline cord.It’s not unusual to find a 
manufacturer rating that is broader that the NRTL rating.  The NRTLs typically 
rate adapter cords for temporary non-continuous use but this appears to be a 
power cord, not adapter cord.  Again, this would be clear on the actual UL 
certificate.  60320 C13/C14 are typically only NRTL rated for 10A, 15A in 
Europe making it even more strange.  

 

The stayonline drawing shows a UL file #E152635  for the cord set.  That file 
does indicate 15A/125V rating for 14AWG.  However, it’s of UL guide ELBZ2 which 
states: 

 

The devices covered under this category are incomplete in certain 
constructional features or restricted in performance capabilities and are 
intended for use as components of complete equipment submitted for 
investigation rather than for direct separate installation in the field. THE 
FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE COMPONENT IS DEPENDENT UPON ITS INSTALLATION AND USE IN 
COMPLETE EQUIPMENT SUBMITTED TO UL.

 

-Dave

 

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk] 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 2:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

It seems to me that this troublesome de-rating is due for an urgent review. Is 
it still really justified, since it causes all these anomalies and 
uncertainties?

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk <http://www.woodjohn.uk> 
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-10-09 19:23, Pete Perkins wrote:

Brian,  et al,

 

The answer to your question is: It depends.  

 

It depends upon who has the place to authorize its use for such 
a condition.  

 

Ted E sez that it is not acceptable and give his reasoning.  

 

The UL/cUL power-cord folks believe that it is acceptable by the marking; some 
test houses would accept this cert without question so the usage in a product 
would seem acceptable.  

 

Who is the Supreme Arbitor on this?  It seems that the AHJ 
Inspector has the last word on this.  Wot’s the chances that the product with 
this power-cord will be field inspected in the application and accepted?  

 

Wot’s your company business risk level on an issue such as 
this?  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 11:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

https://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=11844

 

The power cord above is as I described in my original email. It too is UL/cUL 
listed. It is listed as a 15 amp power cord powered by a 20 amp branch circuit 
and 18 amp conductor (cordage).  Can this power cord power a device rated 15 
amps?  If not, why not?

 

Thanks,

Brian

 

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

Brian, et al,

 

Oh yes, strange combinations…  The referenced combo is safety 
certified on the mfgrs spec sheet; really strange, wot was the test lab 
thinking?.   Wot kind of a product would appear with a 50A/125V/250V plug on it 
such that one would need an adapter to use it on a 15A/120V circuit?  Would an 
Electrical Inspector really accept such?  It would really raise a lot of 
questions; wouldn’t you like to be a ‘mouse-in-the-corner’ listening to such.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 9:24 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

This looks like a strange one.  I’d be verifying the actual UL 
certificate/listing on that stayonline cord.It’s not unusual to find a 
manufacturer rating that is broader that the NRTL rating.  The NRTLs typically 
rate adapter cords for temporary non-continuous use but this appears to be a 
power cord, not adapter cord.  Again, this would be clear on the actual UL 
certificate.  60320 C13/C14 are typically only NRTL rated for 10A, 15A in 
Europe making it even more strange.

The stayonline drawing shows a UL file #E152635  for the cord set.  That file 
does indicate 15A/125V rating for 14AWG.  However, it’s of UL guide ELBZ2 which 
states:

The devices covered under this category are incomplete in certain 
constructional features or restricted in performance capabilities and are 
intended for use as components of complete equipment submitted for 
investigation rather than for direct separate installation in the field. THE 
FINAL ACCEPTANCE OF THE COMPONENT IS DEPENDENT UPON ITS INSTALLATION AND USE IN 
COMPLETE EQUIPMENT SUBMITTED TO UL.

-Dave

From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 2:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13


It seems to me that this troublesome de-rating is due for an urgent review. Is 
it still really justified, since it causes all these anomalies and 
uncertainties?

John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only

J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk<http://www.woodjohn.uk>

Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-09 19:23, Pete Perkins wrote:
Brian,  et al,

The answer to your question is: It depends.

It depends upon who has the place to authorize its use for such 
a condition.

Ted E sez that it is not acceptable and give his reasoning.

The UL/cUL power-cord folks believe that it is acceptable by the marking; some 
test houses would accept this cert without question so the usage in a product 
would seem acceptable.

Who is the Supreme Arbitor on this?  It seems that the AHJ 
Inspector has the last word on this.  Wot’s the chances that the product with 
this power-cord will be field inspected in the application and accepted?

Wot’s your company business risk level on an issue such as this?

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 11:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

https://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=11844

The power cord above is as I described in my original email. It too is UL/cUL 
listed. It is listed as a 15 amp power cord powered by a 20 amp branch circuit 
and 18 amp conductor (cordage).  Can this power cord power a device rated 15 
amps?  If not, why not?

Thanks,
Brian

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Brian, et al,

Oh yes, strange combinations…  The referenced combo is safety 
certified on the mfgrs spec sheet; really strange, wot was the test lab 
thinking?.   Wot kind of a product would appear with a 50A/125V/250V plug on it 
such that one would need an adapter to use it on a 15A/120V circuit?  Would an 
Electrical Inspector really accept such?  It would really raise a lot of 
questions; wouldn’t you like to be a ‘mouse-in-the-corner’ listening to such.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 9:24 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Hello Brian,

This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads. NFPA 70, 
section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the requirement for the 80% 
derating. However, it states: “Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads 
or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the minimum 
branch-circuit conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity not less than 
the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.”

“Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A hairdryer or 
microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either have too many dogs and 
need to stop walking them in the rain or you like cooking food until it tastes 
like charcoal.)

The problem is that a detachable cord with an applian

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[John Woodgate]

It seems to me that this troublesome de-rating is due for an urgent 
review. Is it still really justified, since it causes all these 
anomalies and uncertainties?


John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK

On 2017-10-09 19:23, Pete Perkins wrote:


Brian, et al,

The answer to your question is: It depends.

It depends upon who has the place to authorize its use for such a 
condition.


Ted E sez that it is not acceptable and give his reasoning.

The UL/cUL power-cord folks believe that it is acceptable by the 
marking; some test houses would accept this cert without question so 
the usage in a product would seem acceptable.


Who is the Supreme Arbitor on this?  It seems that the AHJ Inspector 
has the last word on this.  Wot’s the chances that the product with 
this power-cord will be field inspected in the application and accepted?


Wot’s your company business risk level on an issue such as this?

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

*From:*Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 11:01 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

https://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=11844

The power cord above is as I described in my original email. It too is 
UL/cUL listed. It is listed as a 15 amp power cord powered by a 20 amp 
branch circuit and 18 amp conductor (cordage).  Can this power cord 
power a device rated 15 amps?  If not, why not?


Thanks,

Brian

*From:*Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
*Sent:* Monday, October 09, 2017 1:57 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Brian, et al,

Oh yes, strange combinations…  The referenced combo is safety 
certified on the mfgrs spec sheet; really strange, wot was the test 
lab thinking?.   Wot kind of a product would appear with a 
50A/125V/250V plug on it such that one would need an adapter to use it 
on a 15A/120V circuit? Would an Electrical Inspector really accept 
such?  It would really raise a lot of questions; wouldn’t you like to 
be a ‘mouse-in-the-corner’ listening to such.


:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

*From:*Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 9:24 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Hello Brian,

This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads. 
NFPA 70, section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the 
requirement for the 80% derating. However, it states: “Where a branch 
circuit supplies continuous loads or any combination of continuous and 
noncontinuous loads, the minimum branch-circuit conductor size shall 
have an allowable ampacity not less than the noncontinuous load plus 
125 percent of the continuous load.”


“Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A 
hairdryer or microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either 
have too many dogs and need to stop walking them in the rain or you 
like cooking food until it tastes like charcoal.)


The problem is that a detachable cord with an appliance coupler could 
be used with any product. Unless it has a built-in timer, you have no 
way of guaranteeing that it won’t be used with a product that draws 
current for less than 3 hours. There may be “non-continuous” loads 
with an appliance coupler and rated for 15 A. As such, I would expect 
such a detachable cord to need to be rated for at least 15 A.


A cord with a NEMA 5-20P would then be prohibited from having a C13 
connector at the other end. It would need a C19 instead.


That being said, for some specialty industries, you can find some 
strange combinations of plugs and receptacles.


http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504

Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those 
of my employer.


*From:*Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
*Sent:* Monday, October 9, 2017 8:31 AM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
*Subject:* [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric 
Code, 15 amp receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp 
receptacles are derated to 16 amps.


IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I 
derate them as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 
connector?


So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Pete Perkins]

Brian,  et al,

 

The answer to your question is: It depends.  

 

It depends upon who has the place to authorize its use for such 
a condition.  

 

Ted E sez that it is not acceptable and give his reasoning.  

 

The UL/cUL power-cord folks believe that it is acceptable by the marking; some 
test houses would accept this cert without question so the usage in a product 
would seem acceptable.  

 

Who is the Supreme Arbitor on this?  It seems that the AHJ 
Inspector has the last word on this.  Wot’s the chances that the product with 
this power-cord will be field inspected in the application and accepted?  

 

Wot’s your company business risk level on an issue such as 
this?  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 11:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

https://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=11844

 

The power cord above is as I described in my original email. It too is UL/cUL 
listed. It is listed as a 15 amp power cord powered by a 20 amp branch circuit 
and 18 amp conductor (cordage).  Can this power cord power a device rated 15 
amps?  If not, why not?

 

Thanks,

Brian

 

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

Brian, et al,

 

Oh yes, strange combinations…  The referenced combo is safety 
certified on the mfgrs spec sheet; really strange, wot was the test lab 
thinking?.   Wot kind of a product would appear with a 50A/125V/250V plug on it 
such that one would need an adapter to use it on a 15A/120V circuit?  Would an 
Electrical Inspector really accept such?  It would really raise a lot of 
questions; wouldn’t you like to be a ‘mouse-in-the-corner’ listening to such.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 9:24 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

Hello Brian,

 

This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads. NFPA 70, 
section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the requirement for the 80% 
derating. However, it states: “Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads 
or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the minimum 
branch-circuit conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity not less than 
the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.”

 

“Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A hairdryer or 
microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either have too many dogs and 
need to stop walking them in the rain or you like cooking food until it tastes 
like charcoal.)

 

The problem is that a detachable cord with an appliance coupler could be used 
with any product. Unless it has a built-in timer, you have no way of 
guaranteeing that it won’t be used with a product that draws current for less 
than 3 hours. There may be “non-continuous” loads with an appliance coupler and 
rated for 15 A. As such, I would expect such a detachable cord to need to be 
rated for at least 15 A.

 

A cord with a NEMA 5-20P would then be prohibited from having a C13 connector 
at the other end. It would need a C19 instead. 

 

That being said, for some specialty industries, you can find some strange 
combinations of plugs and receptacles.

 <http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504> http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps. 

 

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

 

So here is the big question:

 

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18

Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Kunde, Brian]

https://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=11844

The power cord above is as I described in my original email. It too is UL/cUL 
listed. It is listed as a 15 amp power cord powered by a 20 amp branch circuit 
and 18 amp conductor (cordage).  Can this power cord power a device rated 15 
amps?  If not, why not?

Thanks,
Brian

From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 1:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Brian, et al,

Oh yes, strange combinations…  The referenced combo is safety 
certified on the mfgrs spec sheet; really strange, wot was the test lab 
thinking?.   Wot kind of a product would appear with a 50A/125V/250V plug on it 
such that one would need an adapter to use it on a 15A/120V circuit?  Would an 
Electrical Inspector really accept such?  It would really raise a lot of 
questions; wouldn’t you like to be a ‘mouse-in-the-corner’ listening to such.

:>) br,  Pete

Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

503/452-1201

p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org>

From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 9:24 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

Hello Brian,

This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads. NFPA 70, 
section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the requirement for the 80% 
derating. However, it states: “Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads 
or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the minimum 
branch-circuit conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity not less than 
the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.”

“Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A hairdryer or 
microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either have too many dogs and 
need to stop walking them in the rain or you like cooking food until it tastes 
like charcoal.)

The problem is that a detachable cord with an appliance coupler could be used 
with any product. Unless it has a built-in timer, you have no way of 
guaranteeing that it won’t be used with a product that draws current for less 
than 3 hours. There may be “non-continuous” loads with an appliance coupler and 
rated for 15 A. As such, I would expect such a detachable cord to need to be 
rated for at least 15 A.

A cord with a NEMA 5-20P would then be prohibited from having a C13 connector 
at the other end. It would need a C19 instead.

That being said, for some specialty industries, you can find some strange 
combinations of plugs and receptacles.
http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps.

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps?

Thanks to all.
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Pete Perkins]

Brian, et al,

 

Oh yes, strange combinations…  The referenced combo is safety 
certified on the mfgrs spec sheet; really strange, wot was the test lab 
thinking?.   Wot kind of a product would appear with a 50A/125V/250V plug on it 
such that one would need an adapter to use it on a 15A/120V circuit?  Would an 
Electrical Inspector really accept such?  It would really raise a lot of 
questions; wouldn’t you like to be a ‘mouse-in-the-corner’ listening to such.  

 

:>) br,  Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201

 

 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org

 

From: Ted Eckert [mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 9:24 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

Hello Brian,

 

This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads. NFPA 70, 
section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the requirement for the 80% 
derating. However, it states: “Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads 
or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the minimum 
branch-circuit conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity not less than 
the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.”

 

“Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A hairdryer or 
microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either have too many dogs and 
need to stop walking them in the rain or you like cooking food until it tastes 
like charcoal.)

 

The problem is that a detachable cord with an appliance coupler could be used 
with any product. Unless it has a built-in timer, you have no way of 
guaranteeing that it won’t be used with a product that draws current for less 
than 3 hours. There may be “non-continuous” loads with an appliance coupler and 
rated for 15 A. As such, I would expect such a detachable cord to need to be 
rated for at least 15 A.

 

A cord with a NEMA 5-20P would then be prohibited from having a C13 connector 
at the other end. It would need a C19 instead. 

 

That being said, for some specialty industries, you can find some strange 
combinations of plugs and receptacles.

 <http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504> http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504

 

Ted Eckert

Microsoft Corporation

 

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

 

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

 

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps. 

 

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

 

So here is the big question:

 

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps? 

 

Thanks to all.

The Other Brian

  _  


LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. 


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Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

[Ted Eckert]

Hello Brian,

This falls under the issue of “continuous” vs. “non-continuous” loads. NFPA 70, 
section 210.19 is one of the clauses that sets the requirement for the 80% 
derating. However, it states: “Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads 
or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the minimum 
branch-circuit conductor size shall have an allowable ampacity not less than 
the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.”

“Continuous” is a load intended to be used for 3 hours or more. A hairdryer or 
microwave are not “continuous”. (If they are, you either have too many dogs and 
need to stop walking them in the rain or you like cooking food until it tastes 
like charcoal.)

The problem is that a detachable cord with an appliance coupler could be used 
with any product. Unless it has a built-in timer, you have no way of 
guaranteeing that it won’t be used with a product that draws current for less 
than 3 hours. There may be “non-continuous” loads with an appliance coupler and 
rated for 15 A. As such, I would expect such a detachable cord to need to be 
rated for at least 15 A.

A cord with a NEMA 5-20P would then be prohibited from having a C13 connector 
at the other end. It would need a C19 instead.

That being said, for some specialty industries, you can find some strange 
combinations of plugs and receptacles.
http://www.marinco.com/en/s15-504

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer.

From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 8:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13

It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp 
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to 
16 amps.

IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them 
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?

So here is the big question:

If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other 
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a 
product rated 15 amps?

Thanks to all.
The Other Brian

LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential 
information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by 
mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you.
-


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