Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-07 Thread Peter Tarver 
*From:* John Allen
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 07, 2013 12:14



> what is the point of including “sophisticated” circuitry



Judging from historical appliance development, a clock.  Judging from the
direction of things, to turn your toaster off without your foreknowledge or
permission because your using too much electricity, and so Google can let
you know when you need to buy more certified organically produced, free
trade soy-milk.



Peter Tarver



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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-07 Thread Don_Borowski 
Given the way things are, we are stuck with different styles of power 
plugs for the different mains voltages. With some clever design, this 
problem could be turned into a solution. One could have a power cord with 
a mains end and an appliance end, with connectors that are not standard 
mains connectors. The 120V power plug would function as the appliance end 
connector for 240V operation, and the 240V power plug would function as 
the appliance end connector for 120V operation. For safety, the power plug 
would not connect to the power cord on the appliance end until the plug 
was captive in the appliance. No special circuitry needed to switch 
voltage ranges.

There is another solution for simple resistive appliances with an even 
number of heating elements: A DPDT relay with the coil wound such that it 
is able to switch the contacts only if the voltage is sufficiently high. 
It would switch the heating elements between series and parallel 
connection. This is about as "unsophisticated" as I can be.

Cheers,

Donald Borowski
Senior EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, WA, USA



From:   "John Allen" 
To: , 
Cc: "'Pete Perkins'" 
Date:   05/07/2013 12:16 PM
Subject:    RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



But then you do have to ask the question: for those appliances which are 
purely ON or OFF like a toaster, a water-boiling kettle or a simple 
radiant electric fire, what is the point of including ?sophisticated? 
circuitry just to switch between voltages ? and probably adding 
considerably to the cost of the appliance compared with one without the 
switching function (and these are typically dirt cheap products sold on 
price point as much as anything else).
 
Therefore I think that the day of the ?universal voltage appliance? is 
still a LOOONG way off for products like these J - especially for markets 
(like the USA) where ?universal voltage sockets? are rarely, if ever, 
likely to be seen (thankfully!).
 
John Allen
 
W.London, UK
 
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of 
don_borow...@selinc.com
Sent: 07 May 2013 19:30
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Cc: Pete Perkins
Subject: RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
 
But breakfast would take four times longer: P = E²/R 

If R is fixed, and voltage E is reduced by a factor of 2, then power P 
goes down by a factor of 4. 

A more clever design with two heating elements would put those elements 
either in series or parallel, depending on the voltage, and operate at the 
same power in either case. 

Donald Borowski 
Senior EMC Compliance Engineer 
Schweitzer Engineering Labs 
Pullman, Washington, USA 





From:"Pete Perkins"  
To:"'John Allen'" , <
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> 
Date:    05/06/2013 08:52 PM 
Subject:RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle 
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org 




John,

I agree with your comment in today's environment but the
implementation of the required 'green' technology will require almost 
every
household and commercial electrical product to run from a SMPS.  (Well 
maybe
a dumb toaster won't require it, but it could be designed to run on 230V 
and
then take twice as long to make the breakfast toast in those countries 
using
115V.) 

Everyone wants smart technology everything so this new 
scenario
should come about rather quickly (maybe in a generation or less).  The
customer won't care what the system voltage is; perhaps the power company
could find clever ways to take advantage of this and relax their system
voltage regulation requirement.  Or maybe it won't be the power company
controlling this but, rather, the smart grid taking power from all the
neighbors renewable energy stations and sharing it locally.  Should be an
interesting time; by then we will have learned more about both protection
and operation under these broader V conditions - brownout saver circuits 
for
the low end and better OV protection on the other.  It looks like fun 
times
are coming to a power system close to you. 

:>) br, Pete



Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety Engineer

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427



503/452-1201 fone/fax

p.perk...@ieee.org 


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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-07 Thread John Allen 
But then you do have to ask the question: for those appliances which are
purely ON or OFF like a toaster, a water-boiling kettle or a simple radiant
electric fire, what is the point of including “sophisticated” circuitry just
to switch between voltages – and probably adding considerably to the cost of
the appliance compared with one without the switching function (and these
are typically dirt cheap products sold on price point as much as anything
else).



Therefore I think that the day of the “universal voltage appliance” is still
a LOOONG way off for products like these J - especially for markets (like
the USA) where “universal voltage sockets” are rarely, if ever, likely to be
seen (thankfully!).



John Allen



W.London, UK



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
don_borow...@selinc.com
Sent: 07 May 2013 19:30
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Cc: Pete Perkins
Subject: RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle



But breakfast would take four times longer: P = E²/R

If R is fixed, and voltage E is reduced by a factor of 2, then power P goes
down by a factor of 4.

A more clever design with two heating elements would put those elements
either in series or parallel, depending on the voltage, and operate at the

same power in either case.

Donald Borowski
Senior EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, Washington, USA





From:"Pete Perkins" 
To:"'John Allen'" ,

Date:05/06/2013 08:52 PM
Subject:RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org

  _




John,

I agree with your comment in today's environment but the
implementation of the required 'green' technology will require almost every
household and commercial electrical product to run from a SMPS.  (Well maybe
a dumb toaster won't require it, but it could be designed to run on 230V and
then take twice as long to make the breakfast toast in those countries using
115V.)

Everyone wants smart technology everything so this new
scenario
should come about rather quickly (maybe in a generation or less).  The
customer won't care what the system voltage is; perhaps the power company
could find clever ways to take advantage of this and relax their system
voltage regulation requirement.  Or maybe it won't be the power company
controlling this but, rather, the smart grid taking power from all the
neighbors renewable energy stations and sharing it locally.  Should be an
interesting time; by then we will have learned more about both protection
and operation under these broader V conditions - brownout saver circuits for
the low end and better OV protection on the other.  It looks like fun times
are coming to a power system close to you.

:>) br, Pete



Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety Engineer

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427



503/452-1201 fone/fax

p.perk...@ieee.org
-


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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-07 Thread Don_Borowski 
But breakfast would take four times longer: P = E²/R

If R is fixed, and voltage E is reduced by a factor of 2, then power P 
goes down by a factor of 4.

A more clever design with two heating elements would put those elements 
either in series or parallel, depending on the voltage, and operate at the 
same power in either case.

Donald Borowski
Senior EMC Compliance Engineer
Schweitzer Engineering Labs
Pullman, Washington, USA





From:   "Pete Perkins" 
To: "'John Allen'" , 

Date:   05/06/2013 08:52 PM
Subject:RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
Sent by:emc-p...@ieee.org



John,

 I agree with your comment in today's environment but the
implementation of the required 'green' technology will require almost 
every
household and commercial electrical product to run from a SMPS.  (Well 
maybe
a dumb toaster won't require it, but it could be designed to run on 230V 
and
then take twice as long to make the breakfast toast in those countries 
using
115V.) 

 Everyone wants smart technology everything so this new 
scenario
should come about rather quickly (maybe in a generation or less).  The
customer won't care what the system voltage is; perhaps the power company
could find clever ways to take advantage of this and relax their system
voltage regulation requirement.  Or maybe it won't be the power company
controlling this but, rather, the smart grid taking power from all the
neighbors renewable energy stations and sharing it locally.  Should be an
interesting time; by then we will have learned more about both protection
and operation under these broader V conditions - brownout saver circuits 
for
the low end and better OV protection on the other.  It looks like fun 
times
are coming to a power system close to you. 

:>) br, Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety Engineer

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201 fone/fax

p.perk...@ieee.org

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread Pete Perkins 
John,

I agree with your comment in today's environment but the
implementation of the required 'green' technology will require almost every
household and commercial electrical product to run from a SMPS.  (Well maybe
a dumb toaster won't require it, but it could be designed to run on 230V and
then take twice as long to make the breakfast toast in those countries using
115V.)  

Everyone wants smart technology everything so this new scenario
should come about rather quickly (maybe in a generation or less).  The
customer won't care what the system voltage is; perhaps the power company
could find clever ways to take advantage of this and relax their system
voltage regulation requirement.  Or maybe it won't be the power company
controlling this but, rather, the smart grid taking power from all the
neighbors renewable energy stations and sharing it locally.  Should be an
interesting time; by then we will have learned more about both protection
and operation under these broader V conditions - brownout saver circuits for
the low end and better OV protection on the other.  It looks like fun times
are coming to a power system close to you.   

:>) br, Pete

 

Peter E Perkins, PE

Principal Product Safety Engineer

PO Box 23427

Tigard, ORe  97281-3427

 

503/452-1201 fone/fax

p.perk...@ieee.org

 

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread Pete Perkins 
Peter,

You are absolutely correct in your description of the implementation
of the combo power/USB outlet.  The USB port is built in (actually 2 of
them, and USB2 at that) but only one NEMA 15 outlet.  And it is UL Listed (I
wouldn't use it, of course, if it wasn't :>))  It is designed with a single
plug on the back and plugs directly into a duplex outlet and sets snug to
the wall.  No fuss, no mess.  

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread John Allen 
OTOH, I think the more general issue is all the other equipment (domestic
appliances, etc.) which is not capable of operating on both voltage ranges -
that could really be a safety issue in many cases.

 

John Allen

W. London, UK

 

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver
Sent: 06 May 2013 22:04
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: RE: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

 

> From: Pete Perkins

> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 11:48

> 

> snip <

> 

> I already have a mixed line voltage

> and USB wallplate adaptor that is very handy.

 

What voltages are mixed in your cover plate or are you referring only to
line voltage and USB/SELV?

 

Since small device SMPS for USB charging are quite small these days, I must
assume the cover plate USB power source has the SMPS built into it.

For this scenario, it's readily conceivable that adding this functionality
could be safely accomplished.  I did a quick search on UL's database and
found three companies with "Combination tamper resistant receptacle with USB
outlets" in their listings for outlets.

 

In such cases, I suspect the USB portion requires no field wiring and that
the USB portion replaces one outlet from a duplex configured device.  Is
this accurate?

 

 

Regards,

 

Peter Tarver

 

 

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread Peter Tarver 
> From: Pete Perkins
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 11:48
>
> snip <
>
> I already have a mixed line voltage
> and USB wallplate adaptor that is very handy.

What voltages are mixed in your cover plate or are you referring only to
line voltage and USB/SELV?

Since small device SMPS for USB charging are quite small these days, I
must assume the cover plate USB power source has the SMPS built into it.
For this scenario, it's readily conceivable that adding this functionality
could be safely accomplished.  I did a quick search on UL's database and
found three companies with "Combination tamper resistant receptacle with
USB outlets" in their listings for outlets.

In such cases, I suspect the USB portion requires no field wiring and that
the USB portion replaces one outlet from a duplex configured device.  Is
this accurate?


Regards,

Peter Tarver


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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread John Allen 
OTOH, could be "very handy" in those countries which use US installation
practice, but don't care too much for the "niceties" and it is common to use
the NEMA 1-15P and 5-15P configurations for both 110-120 & 220-230V  (I have
heard that some parts of the Phillipines can be like that, although I
obviously stand to be corrected), and where Agency logos are sometime less
than totally legit ;-) .

 

John Allen

W. London, UK

 

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver
Sent: 06 May 2013 18:44
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

 

John -

 

I was able to find it in UL's public notices at

 

 

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices/detail/index.jsp

?cpath=/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices//detail/data/ul-warns-of-p

otentially-hazardous-receptacle-release-13pn-05_2013043008.xml

 

>From the photos, it looks as though the receptacle doesn't mix wiring types,
it's that the mechanical interface accepts 125 V and 250 V NEMA plug types.
Based only by appearance and that the assumption receptacle can accept NEMA
5-15P, an quick and dirty analysis of potentially compatible NEMA configured
plugs is presented below.

 

1-15P (ungrounded, 125 V, 15 A; will fit) 2-15P (ungrounded, 250 V, 20 A;
will fit) 2-20P (ungrounded, 250 V, 20 A; might fit) 5-15P (grounded, 125 V,
15 A; will fit) 5-20P (grounded, 125 V, 20 A; will fit) 6-15P (grounded, 250
V, 15 A; will fit) 6-20P (grounded, 250 V, 20 A; might fit))

 

 

Peter Tarver

 

 

> -Original Message-

> From: John Allen  
[mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]

> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 10:11

> To: 'Peter Tarver';  
EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

> Subject: RE: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

> 

> Peter

> Whilst the link to the UL press release works, the follow-on links to 

> the actual photos do not appear to.

> 

> John Allen

> W.London, UK.

> 

> 

> -Original Message-

> From:   emc-p...@ieee.org
 [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of
Peter 

> Tarver

> Sent: 06 May 2013 17:56

> To:   EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG

> Subject: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

> 

> UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet)

> 

>  
http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-

> Hazardous-Receptacl

> e.aspx

> 

> I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle 

> (I suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and 

> segregation of wiring and other issues come into play in the device 

> box).

> 

> The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets.

> 

> 

> Regards,

> 

> Peter L. Tarver

> 

> 

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> contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the 

> original message.

> 

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread Pete Perkins 
Peter et al,

The UL shown in Peter's email is split by a CR and there is a short
segment on the next line which is not highlighted as part of the URL.  

I copied it entirely into my browser and went directly to the UL
notice with the embedded pix.  

This scenario provides an interesting discussion point.  For any
applications which use a SMPS source, plugging it into either outlet (with
any plug that fits) would provide proper input voltage for the device to
work normally.

The need for voltage designated plugs is thus unneeded.  Indeed, I
use adaptors to plug my laptop power supply into the power provided around
the world and don't worry about the voltage - as do colleagues from many
regions.  My 115V plug and power supply works happily at 230V.  

Perhaps the world will work towards some simple system - how about
having line voltage outlets and ELV USB outlets for everything, we seem to
be quickly moving in that direction.  I already have a mixed line voltage
and USB wallplate adaptor that is very handy.   

:>) br, Pete
 
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety Engineer
PO Box 23427
Tigard, ORe  97281-3427
 
503/452-1201 fone/fax
p.perk...@ieee.org
 

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread John Allen 
Peter
Whilst the link to the UL press release works, the follow-on links to the
actual photos do not appear to.

John Allen
W.London, UK.


-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Peter Tarver
Sent: 06 May 2013 17:56
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet)

http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-Hazardous-Receptacl
e.aspx

I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I
suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation of
wiring and other issues come into play in the device box).

The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver


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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 3162/6302 - Release Date: 05/06/13

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread Peter Tarver 
John -

I was able to find it in UL's public notices at

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices/detail/index.jsp
?cpath=/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices//detail/data/ul-warns-of-p
otentially-hazardous-receptacle-release-13pn-05_2013043008.xml

>From the photos, it looks as though the receptacle doesn't mix wiring
types, it's that the mechanical interface accepts 125 V and 250 V NEMA
plug types.  Based only by appearance and that the assumption receptacle
can accept NEMA 5-15P, an quick and dirty analysis of potentially
compatible NEMA configured plugs is presented below.

1-15P (ungrounded, 125 V, 15 A; will fit)
2-15P (ungrounded, 250 V, 20 A; will fit)
2-20P (ungrounded, 250 V, 20 A; might fit)
5-15P (grounded, 125 V, 15 A; will fit)
5-20P (grounded, 125 V, 20 A; will fit)
6-15P (grounded, 250 V, 15 A; will fit)
6-20P (grounded, 250 V, 20 A; might fit))


Peter Tarver


> -Original Message-
> From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk]
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 10:11
> To: 'Peter Tarver'; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: RE: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
>
> Peter
> Whilst the link to the UL press release works, the
> follow-on links to the
> actual photos do not appear to.
>
> John Allen
> W.London, UK.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Tarver
> Sent: 06 May 2013 17:56
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle
>
> UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet)
>
> http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-
> Hazardous-Receptacl
> e.aspx
>
> I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a
> duplex receptacle (I
> suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more
> likely and segregation of
> wiring and other issues come into play in the device
> box).
>
> The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter L. Tarver
>
>
> This email message is for the sole use of the intended
> recipient(s) and may
> contain confidential and/or privileged information. If
> you are not an
> intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy,
> disclose or distribute
> this message. If you received this message in error,
> please contact the
> sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the
> original message.
>
> -
> ---
> -
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety
> Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send
> your e-mail to
> 
>
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> the web at:
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>
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> Communities site at
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> graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
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> guide.html
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 3162/6302 -
> Release Date: 05/06/13


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and destroy all copies of the original message. 

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread jral...@productsafetyinc.com 
I couldn't follow the link Peter gave.  I think the official UL Public Notice 
for the issue is below.  The receptacle does not comply with UL's requirements 
and should not bear the UL mark.  

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices/detail/index.jsp?cpath=/global/eng/pages/newsroom/publicnotices//detail/data/ul-warns-of-potentially-hazardous-receptacle-release-13pn-05_2013043008.xml

Regarding Peter's comments, mixing voltages would be allowed as long as you 
comply with the requirements.  We now see receptacles with USB connectors that 
have UL.  In most cases UL/NRTL's do not have blanket statements limiting 
designs.  If designers figure out how to do it and still comply with the 
requirements, then they're good to go.  Peter's comments are right on regarding 
the concerns - miss-wiring and separation of circuits.


-Original Message-
From: Peter Tarver [mailto:ptar...@enphaseenergy.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 11:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet)

http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-Hazardous-Receptacl
e.aspx

I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I 
suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation of 
wiring and other issues come into play in the device box).

The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver


This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended 
recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. 
If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email 
and destroy all copies of the original message. 

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Re: [PSES] UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

2013-05-06 Thread Brian Oconnell 
Not acceptable for most construction according to NEC, but I can think of
one allowance per 70E.

UL says that their mark is not authorized for this unit.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of Peter
Tarver
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 9:56 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: UL warning regarding a wall receptacle

UL warning regarding a wall receptacle (socket outlet)

http://www.nema.org/News/Pages/UL-Warns-of-Potentially-Hazardous-Receptacl
e.aspx

I'm not aware if mixing of voltages is allowed in a duplex receptacle (I
suspect it is not, since wiring errors become more likely and segregation
of wiring and other issues come into play in the device box).

The marked manufacturer makes UL Listed outlets.


Regards,

Peter L. Tarver

-

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