RE: Comment re: RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
Bill, John, et al - I subscribe at work with very nice bandwidth at no direct cost to me and yet I fully support your position. Indeed a quick perusal of the official posting policy for the list, presented below, makes the point. I dislike even e-cards attached to e-mails to the list. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com Reposted without permission and with all due apologies for treading on administrator's privilege: quote From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org on behalf of Rich Nute [ri...@sdd.hp.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 4:22 PM To: Product Safety Technical Committee Subject: Administrative message -- posting formats Regarding postings, here is a re-statement of our guidelines that were sent to you when you subscribed: 1. No attachments (because many of our subscribers use dial-up modems for which message size determines the download time). If an attachment is appropriate or necessary to your message, then a) offer to e-mail it separately upon request, or b) make it available on an FTP site, or c) post it to a web site and provide the URL in your message. 2. Post in ASCII plain text. Do not use RTF, HTML, or similar formats. Not all mail readers are compatible with these formats, but all mail readers are compatible with ASCII plain text. In most cases (especially Outlook), you can set your mailer to always use ASCII plain text for messages sent to emc-pstc. Also, please don't write messages without carriage returns. Some mailer readers can't handle long lines, so the line is truncated and part of the line disappears. If you use CR (ENTER) at the end of each line, then each reader will see the same format as the one you wrote. 3. Please don't re-post the entire message string when replying to a message. Instead, pick out the passages to which you want to respond, enter your response, and delete the other text. This makes your point easier to understand, and helps keep the message size down for our modem- connected colleagues. Don't forget to delete the emc-pstc footer! :-) (Each posted message gets the footer attached; multiple footers provide no useful information, and just make downloads longer.) 4. If appropriate, when responding to a message, change the subject line to agree with the major point or content of your contribution. You can append was 'original subject' to your subject if you want to reference the original subject. This will help us when the subject matter strays from the original. 5. If you want to attach a signature, please do so in ASCII (for the same reason as posting in ASCII), not the business card format that is gaining popularity. Best regards, Richard Nute Administrator, emc-pstc listserver Tel: +1-858-655-3329 FAX: +1-858-655-4374 e-mail: ri...@ieee.org end quote This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Comment re: RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
No offense taken Bill I will remember this in the future and offer an attachment to those who are interested instead of wasting everyone's bandwidth and internet connection time..I apologize to those this inconvenienced... regards, John From: b...@lyons.demon.co.uk [mailto:b...@lyons.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 6:19 AM To: Tyra, John; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Comment re: RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S. In message 418fbd441c22d5118d860003470d43160543f...@cupid.bose.com Tyra, John writes: Attached is an article from the Conformity 2002 Annual Guide titled Know When You Need To List Your Product And When You Don't written by John Curtis of Curtis- Strauss LLC. It gives some great information. For those who, rightfully, fear attachments, I ran this through a dedicated scanner and our outgoing e-mails are virus scanned so I hope that gives you some confidence as to the integrity of the attachment..Hope this helps... [all previous snipped] Dear John, No, I don't necessarily fear attachments, but they are a terrific nuisance to those on a dial-up connection, as I am, and annoying to those who don't need them, e.g. in this instance those who are not involved in the U.S. market for example. I was horrified when my connection seemed to be hanging and when the connection at last closed found that there was a mail of no less than 839,820 bytes, and which took a helluva time, and added quite a bit to my phone bill, to download. Please may I suggest that if you had emailed your full response to those directly involved and posted a note to EMC-PSTC saying how much you valued the article and from where it could be downloaded (or that you would mail it on request), this would have been equally helpful and saved a lot of bandwidth for everyone else. Apologies both to you, as I know you meant well, and to the list administrators who may think I am infringing on their prerogative, but not everyone on this list is on a broadband connection and I thought it right to explain this. (Actually, I think the list standing guidelines deprecate the posting of binaries/attachments.) Incidentally, I'm sure Conformity will be delighted at the free publicity, but there can be copright issues in posting articles or other third party documents to mailing lists or newsgroups. Again my apologies for any unintemded offense. With best wishes Bill -- Bill Lyons - b...@lyons.demon.co.uk / w.ly...@ieee.org This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Comment re: RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
In message 418fbd441c22d5118d860003470d43160543f...@cupid.bose.com Tyra, John writes: Attached is an article from the Conformity 2002 Annual Guide titled Know When You Need To List Your Product And When You Don't written by John Curtis of Curtis- Strauss LLC. It gives some great information. For those who, rightfully, fear attachments, I ran this through a dedicated scanner and our outgoing e-mails are virus scanned so I hope that gives you some confidence as to the integrity of the attachment..Hope this helps... [all previous snipped] Dear John, No, I don't necessarily fear attachments, but they are a terrific nuisance to those on a dial-up connection, as I am, and annoying to those who don't need them, e.g. in this instance those who are not involved in the U.S. market for example. I was horrified when my connection seemed to be hanging and when the connection at last closed found that there was a mail of no less than 839,820 bytes, and which took a helluva time, and added quite a bit to my phone bill, to download. Please may I suggest that if you had emailed your full response to those directly involved and posted a note to EMC-PSTC saying how much you valued the article and from where it could be downloaded (or that you would mail it on request), this would have been equally helpful and saved a lot of bandwidth for everyone else. Apologies both to you, as I know you meant well, and to the list administrators who may think I am infringing on their prerogative, but not everyone on this list is on a broadband connection and I thought it right to explain this. (Actually, I think the list standing guidelines deprecate the posting of binaries/attachments.) Incidentally, I'm sure Conformity will be delighted at the free publicity, but there can be copright issues in posting articles or other third party documents to mailing lists or newsgroups. Again my apologies for any unintemded offense. With best wishes Bill -- Bill Lyons - b...@lyons.demon.co.uk / w.ly...@ieee.org This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilmebgckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. A very great deal more complicated, because the practical requirements are not centralized but delegated down though the local government chain, and in some cases jurisdictions overlap or are not clearly segregated. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
I read in !emc-pstc that drcuthbert drcuthb...@micron.com wrote (in cfefa50c9bcad21197470001fa7eba6b14121...@ntexchange05.micron.com) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: For example, UL 60950 the same as EN 60950. Are you sure? I agree that much of the content is the same, but I think there are still some differences. It's also necessary to be specific about which editions are compared. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Attached is an article from the Conformity 2002 Annual Guide titled Know When You Need To List Your Product And When You Don't written by John Curtis of Curtis- Strauss LLC. It gives some great information. For those who, rightfully, fear attachments, I ran this through a dedicated scanner and our outgoing e-mails are virus scanned so I hope that gives you some confidence as to the integrity of the attachment..Hope this helps... From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 2:25 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I would never dare to declare U.S. compliance without testing and certify via a NRTL. But what I am struggling with, is to gain knowledge about the basic electrical safety laws in U.S. Maybe I do not need legally to go through a NRTL, but that does not mean I would, even if I could. The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av John Woodgate Sendt: 17. januar 2003 13:25 Til: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilaeapckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws I think you really already had the strictly correct answer, but it's over-complicated. The practical answer is that it's much better to have certification than not to have it, unless the cost of certification would make your product uncompetitive against other, uncertified products in competition with yours. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list Title: RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S. Attached is an article from the Conformity 2002 Annual Guide titled Know When You Need To List Your Product And When You Don't written by John Curtis of Curtis- Strauss LLC. It gives some great information. For those who, rightfully, fear attachments, I ran this through a dedicated scanner and our outgoing e-mails are virus scanned so I hope that gives you some confidence as to the integrity of the attachment..Hope this helps... -Original Message- From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 2:25 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I would never dare to declare U.S. compliance without testing and certify via a NRTL. But what I am struggling with, is to gain knowledge about the basic electrical safety laws in U.S. Maybe I do not need legally to go through a NRTL, but that does not mean I would, even if I could. The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av John
RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
This is partially true in that while the there are some EU standards harmonized with UL standards, they are not completely harmonized and you still have to consider the U.S. National Deviations to be totally complaint a good example is component approvals. The UL standard will usually require a component to be compliant to a UL component standard while the IEC/EN standards reference the IEC/EN component standards. Another good example where this will kill you if you only consider the IEC/ EN requirements is for UL6500...The IEC/EN 60065 standard only requires a fire enclosure to be rated 94-HB, in most cases, while the UL standard has a U.S. deviation which requires 94-V2 plastic.so beware and check for all National Deviations.. From: drcuthbert [mailto:drcuthb...@micron.com] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 4:31 PM To: 'Amund Westin'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S. Amund, Several EU standards have been harmonized with the United States UL standards. A list can be found at http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/catalog/stdscatframe.html For example, UL 60950 the same as EN 60950. So, I'm thinking that if your device meets EU safety requirements it will make it through UL as long it has been designed to a harmonized standard. Does this sound reasonable to anyone or am I off the mark? Dave Cuthbert From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 12:25 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I would never dare to declare U.S. compliance without testing and certify via a NRTL. But what I am struggling with, is to gain knowledge about the basic electrical safety laws in U.S. Maybe I do not need legally to go through a NRTL, but that does not mean I would, even if I could. The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av John Woodgate Sendt: 17. januar 2003 13:25 Til: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilaeapckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws I think you really already had the strictly correct answer, but it's over-complicated. The practical answer is that it's much better to have certification than not to have it, unless the cost of certification would make your product uncompetitive against other, uncertified products in competition with yours. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave
RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
Amund, I think early on you mentioned that you didn't want to be restricted where you could sell. So if that's the bottom line then I think its off the NRTL you go. Even given the single condition of the City of LA which not only requires it (or a City of LA inspection where they claim to use the UL standards). I think you will also find that regardless of what the government says, many of your clients will ask for it if it is used as part of their system. We occasionally sell things to Public Utility companies that have legal exceptions these OSHA, and the NFPA, yet they still require inspection or Listing to a NRTL .I think you could make some sales without any of this, either through no requirements, or even more likely, through lack of inspection/enforcement in some areas, but that doesn't give you an unrestricted product if you will. Like any country some of laws are pretty good some of them aren't. Given that we are a pretty feisty bunch by nature (well, not me certainly) somebody always has a differing opinion and consensus isn't all that easy. Then again I don't know that its any easier to get consensus in the EU, is it? Heck we get one president who immediately undoes the laws the last president did, only to have them re-done or undone by the next guy - heavy sigh! Gary This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
Hi Dave, You are not correct when you stated that UL60950 is the same as EN60950. Actually, both of these standards are based on IEC60950, but they are not equal to each other. Each has specific national deviations from IEC60950 that must be addressed if a product is to be successfully evaluated to either standard. Comments? Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com drcuthb...@micron.com Sent by: To: am...@westin-emission.no, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org owner-emc-pstc@majordocc: mo.ieee.org Subject: RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S. 01/17/2003 02:30 PM Please respond to drcuthbert Amund, Several EU standards have been harmonized with the United States UL standards. A list can be found at http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/catalog/stdscatframe.html For example, UL 60950 the same as EN 60950. So, I'm thinking that if your device meets EU safety requirements it will make it through UL as long it has been designed to a harmonized standard. Does this sound reasonable to anyone or am I off the mark? Dave Cuthbert From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 12:25 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I would never dare to declare U.S. compliance without testing and certify via a NRTL. But what I am struggling with, is to gain knowledge about the basic electrical safety laws in U.S. Maybe I do not need legally to go through a NRTL, but that does not mean I would, even if I could. The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av John Woodgate Sendt: 17. januar 2003 13:25 Til: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilaeapckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws I think you really already had the strictly correct answer, but it's over-complicated. The practical answer is that it's much better to have certification than not to have it, unless the cost of certification would make your product uncompetitive against other, uncertified products in competition with yours. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac
RE: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
Amund, Several EU standards have been harmonized with the United States UL standards. A list can be found at http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/catalog/stdscatframe.html For example, UL 60950 the same as EN 60950. So, I'm thinking that if your device meets EU safety requirements it will make it through UL as long it has been designed to a harmonized standard. Does this sound reasonable to anyone or am I off the mark? Dave Cuthbert From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 12:25 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I would never dare to declare U.S. compliance without testing and certify via a NRTL. But what I am struggling with, is to gain knowledge about the basic electrical safety laws in U.S. Maybe I do not need legally to go through a NRTL, but that does not mean I would, even if I could. The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av John Woodgate Sendt: 17. januar 2003 13:25 Til: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilaeapckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws I think you really already had the strictly correct answer, but it's over-complicated. The practical answer is that it's much better to have certification than not to have it, unless the cost of certification would make your product uncompetitive against other, uncertified products in competition with yours. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
SV: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
I would never dare to declare U.S. compliance without testing and certify via a NRTL. But what I am struggling with, is to gain knowledge about the basic electrical safety laws in U.S. Maybe I do not need legally to go through a NRTL, but that does not mean I would, even if I could. The electrical safety legislation seems to be a bit more complicated in U.S. compared to EU. Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]På vegne av John Woodgate Sendt: 17. januar 2003 13:25 Til: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Emne: Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S. I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilaeapckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws I think you really already had the strictly correct answer, but it's over-complicated. The practical answer is that it's much better to have certification than not to have it, unless the cost of certification would make your product uncompetitive against other, uncertified products in competition with yours. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
I read in !emc-pstc that Amund Westin am...@westin-emission.no wrote (in lfenjlpmmjbmhpeibnilaeapckaa.am...@westin-emission.no) about 'SV: NRTL in the U.S.' on Fri, 17 Jan 2003: Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws I think you really already had the strictly correct answer, but it's over-complicated. The practical answer is that it's much better to have certification than not to have it, unless the cost of certification would make your product uncompetitive against other, uncertified products in competition with yours. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: SV: NRTL in the U.S.
Hello Amund, Unfortunately, your question can be broadly interpreted. As a matter of law the U.S. has agencies (FCC, FDA) that require product approvals depending on their intended use and function. Also, the U.S. has environmental laws that are overseen by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and usually apply to substances used in a product that have been identified by EPA as toxic or hazardous. OSHA you have already heard about. So much for the federal level, when you get down to the state level, most laws usually are those that are enacted where interstate commerce does not take place. I say this because FDA does not have jurisdiction on medical products if they are entirely made in one state for sale only in that state. In these cases a state will have their own version of FDA, like California. As you can see, the U.S. can be a complex market. However, to answer your question, you need to know what your product is and what its intended market and use are before you can determine what laws you need to comply with in the U.S., both at the federal and state level. However, the problem is that even we in the U.S. are not aware of all state and local laws as they apply to our products. We keep finding something new because in a country with 50 states there are 50 different governments enacting laws. Keeping tabs on all 50 states is not easy. Best regards, Ron Wellman At 10:55 AM 1/17/2003 +0100, Amund Westin wrote: Hi Safety folks, Many good points in this discussion. For us up here in Scandinavia, we se the U.S. market as one Market and we can not (may be we should..) go into law details for the City of LA, Santa Clara County and so on. If there are States or Cities in the U.S. which require by law that an electrical equipment must be certified by NRTL ( I guess we talk about UL, CSA, Intertek, etc), that will be the most important information for us. That means, if we will enter the U.S. market with a product and we do not know where it will be used (some place in the range Key West to Vancouver ), we have to be aware if Certification and/or listing is required by law. Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws ? Best regards Amund Oslo / Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]Pa vegne av gr...@test4safety.com Sendt: 15. januar 2003 21:23 Til: 'Rich Nute' Kopi: 'Product Safety Technical Committee' Emne: RE: NRTL in the U.S. Hi Rich, I argue with some of your statements. :-) Thanks - at least I know that I'm alive and not dreaming! Dave's question - Does this apply to in-house test equipment? Hi Dave - Good question (Please see attached). I'm sorry about the file size but I took it from the Department of Labor web site several years ago when this topic first came up. (It repeats about every 6 months if my memory serves) I believe Dave's question was in regard to compliance to local electrical codes, not to OSHA requirements. Yes - but that is not the full story - and it would be easy to misapply a YES-NO answer to a similar (but inappropriate) situation. Local electrical codes (e.g., NEC) require all electrical equipment that comprises an electrical installation to be approved for the purpose. This is taken to mean listed or otherwise certified for safety. Codes are enforced by local inspectors and by licensed electricians who perform the installation. Department of Labor (OSHA) regulations require that the electrical equipment used by employees be certified for safety by an NRTL. Regulations are enforced by the employer as well as by periodically by inspectors from OSHA. While these two sets of rules are independent of each other, one solution satisfies both rules: listing. As Albert Camus wrote (in The Plague) The difference was slight - and the result the same. Perhaps someone can comment about FIRE and ELECTRIC SHOCK reports on non-Listed versus LISTED products. However - the BEST and MOST RELEVANT people to ask are your Corporate Insurers. It would be little good meeting the local code to find that there is small print in your corporate liability insurance leaves you with personal liability for any failure - injury or death!!! Even if you can avoid NRTL testing then you need to protect yourself - NOT YOUR COMPANY - (people go to jail - companies don't). As a general rule, employees cannot be held personally liable if they are doing work in accordance with direction from the employer. IF THEY CAN PROVE IT! I'm sure that no 'employer' would say I employed him as a professional - I expected him
SV: NRTL in the U.S.
Hi Safety folks, Many good points in this discussion. For us up here in Scandinavia, we se the U.S. market as one Market and we can not (may be we should..) go into law details for the City of LA, Santa Clara County and so on. If there are States or Cities in the U.S. which require by law that an electrical equipment must be certified by NRTL ( I guess we talk about UL, CSA, Intertek, etc), that will be the most important information for us. That means, if we will enter the U.S. market with a product and we do not know where it will be used (some place in the range Key West to Vancouver ), we have to be aware if Certification and/or listing is required by law. Just for a few seconds forget the customers requirements, is it therefore a correct interpretation that electrical equipment (ITE, household appliances, radio transmitters, etc) must be certified in order to follow the U.S. laws ? Best regards Amund Oslo / Norway -Opprinnelig melding- Fra: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]Pa vegne av gr...@test4safety.com Sendt: 15. januar 2003 21:23 Til: 'Rich Nute' Kopi: 'Product Safety Technical Committee' Emne: RE: NRTL in the U.S. Hi Rich, I argue with some of your statements. :-) Thanks - at least I know that I'm alive and not dreaming! Dave's question - Does this apply to in-house test equipment? Hi Dave - Good question (Please see attached). I'm sorry about the file size but I took it from the Department of Labor web site several years ago when this topic first came up. (It repeats about every 6 months if my memory serves) I believe Dave's question was in regard to compliance to local electrical codes, not to OSHA requirements. Yes - but that is not the full story - and it would be easy to misapply a YES-NO answer to a similar (but inappropriate) situation. Local electrical codes (e.g., NEC) require all electrical equipment that comprises an electrical installation to be approved for the purpose. This is taken to mean listed or otherwise certified for safety. Codes are enforced by local inspectors and by licensed electricians who perform the installation. Department of Labor (OSHA) regulations require that the electrical equipment used by employees be certified for safety by an NRTL. Regulations are enforced by the employer as well as by periodically by inspectors from OSHA. While these two sets of rules are independent of each other, one solution satisfies both rules: listing. As Albert Camus wrote (in The Plague) The difference was slight - and the result the same. Perhaps someone can comment about FIRE and ELECTRIC SHOCK reports on non-Listed versus LISTED products. However - the BEST and MOST RELEVANT people to ask are your Corporate Insurers. It would be little good meeting the local code to find that there is small print in your corporate liability insurance leaves you with personal liability for any failure - injury or death!!! Even if you can avoid NRTL testing then you need to protect yourself - NOT YOUR COMPANY - (people go to jail - companies don't). As a general rule, employees cannot be held personally liable if they are doing work in accordance with direction from the employer. IF THEY CAN PROVE IT! I'm sure that no 'employer' would say I employed him as a professional - I expected him to act accordingly - Had I known the outcome I would never have instructed him to or even I did not - it is our policy to comply with ALL legislation - he obviously made a mistake - let him prove otherwise. But, today's focus on profits motivates many insurers to creatively find a way to prevent payment of claims or to recover the loss from some other source. Gee - I can't imagine that ever happening However, recovering from the likes of you and me would not come close to covering the loss. There are bigger fish and deeper pockets. OK - but suppose it did - how long would it be before legal costs bankrupted you? - Maybe that are others that do not share you optimism. What about Joint and Several actions - if I wanted to bring a successful action I would attack the designer - BECAUSE I know that his funds would be exhausted quickly AND that after disposing of him/her I would have the case proven (will minimal cost) and then go to find the deep pockets. Try to think of 'compliance' not as PASS or FAIL; but as a continuum from DEPLORABLE through ACCEPTABLE to the UNATTAINABLE. These abstractions, DEPLORABLE, ACCEPTABLE, and UNATTAINABLE, are difficult to use because they are not very measurable. PASS and FAIL at least provide a line by which to discriminate between acceptable and unacceptable. Correct - the word I used to describe them was CONTINUUM that is not measurable either. I was trying to set sights higher than Our product PASSED - where PASSED equals
