Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 7:18 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:



>  But have you compared the teeth per
> inch of those driving gears, with the teeth per inch of the toy gears in
> the smallish machines I am messing around with?


What size gears?  I think the ones in my Seig mini lather are module 1.0
 That makes them just over 3mm per tooth and the sensor we've been talking
about should still do OK.

As for automotive sensors, al they are is one of these $8 units we've been
looking at inside some kind of housing.  There are other gear sensors too.
Browse Digikey and you will find a few more

-- 

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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 10 March 2016 17:53:23 Chris Albertson wrote:

> The two hall effect sensors are 2.2mm apart.  That means they are
> close to 1/3rd of your gear pitch apart.
>
> ...
>
> > But my concern is how it works with less than a 6mm tooth to tooth
> > spaced gear?  Lots of stuff in our toys is smaller than that.
>
> It is easy to MAKE a gear touch sensor although not as easy as buying
> one. Get a 1/4" steel bolt and grind the end to a point.  Write a
> bunch of magnet with around the bolt and place the printed end where
> it is almost in contact with the gear.   The on the blunt end of the
> bolt place a powerful magnet (maybe salvaged from an old hard disk
> drive.   Have you ever seen an electric guitar?  Same exact thing.
> The wire will output a sinusoid wave that matches the gear teeth even
> if the ten are very small.

Some minor corrections, Chris.  The bolt can be smaller than 1/4",  And 
it should be the softest, cheapest bolt in the bin because you want it 
easily magnetised.  The point needn't be any sharper than about half a 
tooths peak wide, more output that way.  Its output will need to be 
biased at about half the plus rail, and fed to an op-amp, preferably 3 
of them in what is called an absolute amplifier setup because that will 
null any stray electrostatic hum pickup by 60+ db if good precision 
resistors are used.  At the speeds I have in mind, the gain/bandwidth 
product of the op-amps should be 20+ megahertz at a gain of 100 in order 
to maintain the specs up to wherever speeds we might want to watch with 
it.

Today we can do it for a buck, but I can recall when that was a couple 
kilobucks a channel card each.  And it wasn't near fast enough for audio 
use.

TI, FWIW, has some fantasticly good op-amps, even single rail types, with 
gain/bandwidth products in the 10 GHz range. $1.27, 15 years ago when I 
had to replace some of Tek/GVG's custom made video amplifiers on a 
ceramic plate in a 300-3A/B video switcher. Tek/GVG had one left on the 
shelf, didn't know if it was good yet, but would charge me $1750, with 
no warranty, to find out.  It turned out the TI part, which took about 
an hour each to install because I was putting a TO-5 can in where an 
inline package nearly 2" long was coming out.

And it was both dead stable and fast enough it messed up the hue lags, 
and the only way to fix it right was to rip out and change 48 of them 
for the TI part so all the paths had matching delays again.

Sure I know it can be done, but I didn't want to re-invent the whole 
thing when I can buy it (for bigger stuffs) for less than a 10'ner at 
onsies prices.

Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 10 March 2016 13:20:55 Dave Cole wrote:

> On 3/10/2016 11:44 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 03/10/2016 01:23 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> This sounds like an interesting device. Are you at liberty
> >> to give a range of pricing for one gear and sensor combo?
> >
> > The Allegro ATS667LSGTN-T is $8.34 in single quantity at
> > Digi-Key. That's what I used on my Bridgeport pickup.  I
> > used the existing bull gear on the head as the thing to be
> > sensed.  I did drill a small dimple on the face of the gear
> > to provide the index pulse.
> >
> > Jon
>
> There is no shortage of gear teeth sensors.
> Don't overlook the fact that just about every car engine made these
> days has one camshaft position sensor and one crankshaft position
> sensor. They are available at your corner autoparts store and they are
> made to run in oil.
>
> Dave

Dave, you are of course correct.  But have you compared the teeth per 
inch of those driving gears, with the teeth per inch of the toy gears in 
the smallish machines I am messing around with?  And by the time it gets 
to the special order listings an NAPA or ???, its hard to justify the 
$80+ they want when you know whats in it can be had for $8.64 at onsies 
price from digikey.  And that stuff in these here parts is sold with a 
10/10 warranty, meaning 10 seconds after you have the receipt and walked 
the 10 feet to the front door.

I don't want that much skin in the game unless the specs say I'll be able 
to use it.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Chris Albertson]

The two hall effect sensors are 2.2mm apart.  That means they are close to
1/3rd of your gear pitch apart.

...
> But my concern is how it works with less than a 6mm tooth to tooth spaced
> gear?  Lots of stuff in our toys is smaller than that.



It is easy to MAKE a gear touch sensor although not as easy as buying one.
  Get a 1/4" steel bolt and grind the end to a point.  Write a bunch of
magnet with around the bolt and place the printed end where it is almost in
contact with the gear.   The on the blunt end of the bolt place a powerful
magnet (maybe salvaged from an old hard disk drive.   Have you ever seen an
electric guitar?  Same exact thing. The wire will output a sinusoid
wave that matches the gear teeth even if the ten are very small.


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [Emc-users] Learning LinuxCNC Youtube Channel

[Jim Craig]

On 3/10/2016 9:27 AM, John Alexander Stewart wrote:
> Jim - thanks for progressing with these videos.
>
> I wonder if it might be an idea to get a mic that you clip to your clothes,
> as in the intro there's a lot of echo.
>
> Keep going!  John.
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John,

My shop is covered in hard surfaces with not much to absorb echo so I 
fear that echo may be present in my future recordings. I have some soft 
surfaces in my garage where I did the probe videos so echo was not so 
prevalent there.

I will see what I can do.

Jim

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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Dave Cole]

On 3/10/2016 11:44 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 03/10/2016 01:23 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> This sounds like an interesting device. Are you at liberty
>> to give a range of pricing for one gear and sensor combo?
> The Allegro ATS667LSGTN-T is $8.34 in single quantity at
> Digi-Key. That's what I used on my Bridgeport pickup.  I
> used the existing bull gear on the head as the thing to be
> sensed.  I did drill a small dimple on the face of the gear
> to provide the index pulse.
>
> Jon
>

There is no shortage of gear teeth sensors.
Don't overlook the fact that just about every car engine made these days 
has one camshaft position sensor and one crankshaft position sensor.
They are available at your corner autoparts store and they are made to 
run in oil.

Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 10 March 2016 11:44:29 Jon Elson wrote:

> On 03/10/2016 01:23 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > This sounds like an interesting device. Are you at liberty
> > to give a range of pricing for one gear and sensor combo?
>
> The Allegro ATS667LSGTN-T is $8.34 in single quantity at
> Digi-Key. That's what I used on my Bridgeport pickup.  I
> used the existing bull gear on the head as the thing to be
> sensed.  I did drill a small dimple on the face of the gear
> to provide the index pulse.
>
> Jon
>
I believe I have seen those pix Jon.  Kewl.

I just sent a plea for 5 samples of the 605, which is $8.64 in onsies, to 
Allegromicro.  But I worded it such that if they have one designed to 
work well with the smaller teeth in my stuff, please substitute.  A 6mm 
total tooth spacing is pretty large as many of the gears in my sized 
stuff are 35mm to 80mm in diamter with as many as 80 teeth on the large 
one.  And thats smaller teeth than the 605 is designed for.

I also found something I didn't look for because I'm still a quart low on 
coffee and didn't note it in the pdf datasheet, digikey says its an open 
drain output, so it can easily be made compatible with our stuff with a 
pullup R to our logics plus rail even if its running on 12 volts.

If I get some, and find my round tuit, I'll post as to the results I get.

Cheers Jon, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Jon Elson]

On 03/10/2016 10:14 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 10 March 2016 10:24:15 Chris Albertson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 11:23 PM, Gene Heskett 
> wrote:
>>> This sounds like an interesting device. Are you at liberty to give a
>>> range of pricing for one gear and sensor combo?
>> Digikey and (I assume) others sell the part for about $8.34
>> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/allegro-microsystems-llc/ATS6
>> 67LSGTN-T/620-1328-1-ND/2042758
>>
>> Read the data sheet (all of it, front to back) It tells you everything
>> you'll need to know.  Basically you mount it 1 or 2 mm from the gear
>> and it gives a pulse for each tooth that passes.
> I just looked at the 605 series, which has a 2 pin quadrature output.
> But my concern is how it works with less than a 6mm tooth to tooth spaced
> gear?  Lots of stuff in our toys is smaller than that.  Their std test
> gear is 120mm in diameter, with 60 teeth, bigger and coarser toothed
> than anything in any of my stuff.
>
>
I used two sensors, one mounted so its position could be 
adjusted to get proper 90 degree quadrature.
See http://pico-systems.com/bridge_spindle.html

Once I had the concept of what I wanted to do, it was VERY 
easy to cobble this together.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Jon Elson]

On 03/10/2016 01:23 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> This sounds like an interesting device. Are you at liberty 
> to give a range of pricing for one gear and sensor combo?
The Allegro ATS667LSGTN-T is $8.34 in single quantity at 
Digi-Key. That's what I used on my Bridgeport pickup.  I 
used the existing bull gear on the head as the thing to be 
sensed.  I did drill a small dimple on the face of the gear 
to provide the index pulse.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 10 March 2016 10:24:15 Chris Albertson wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 11:23 PM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > This sounds like an interesting device. Are you at liberty to give a
> > range of pricing for one gear and sensor combo?
>
> Digikey and (I assume) others sell the part for about $8.34
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/allegro-microsystems-llc/ATS6
>67LSGTN-T/620-1328-1-ND/2042758
>
> Read the data sheet (all of it, front to back) It tells you everything
> you'll need to know.  Basically you mount it 1 or 2 mm from the gear
> and it gives a pulse for each tooth that passes.

I just looked at the 605 series, which has a 2 pin quadrature output.
But my concern is how it works with less than a 6mm tooth to tooth spaced 
gear?  Lots of stuff in our toys is smaller than that.  Their std test 
gear is 120mm in diameter, with 60 teeth, bigger and coarser toothed 
than anything in any of my stuff.

Has anyone made use of that one, or a similar device from another source?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Learning LinuxCNC Youtube Channel

[John Alexander Stewart]

Jim - thanks for progressing with these videos.

I wonder if it might be an idea to get a mic that you clip to your clothes,
as in the intro there's a lot of echo.

Keep going!  John.
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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Chris Albertson]

On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 11:23 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> This sounds like an interesting device. Are you at liberty to give a
> range of pricing for one gear and sensor combo?


Digikey and (I assume) others sell the part for about $8.34
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/allegro-microsystems-llc/ATS667LSGTN-T/620-1328-1-ND/2042758

Read the data sheet (all of it, front to back) It tells you everything
you'll need to know.  Basically you mount it 1 or 2 mm from the gear and it
gives a pulse for each tooth that passes.


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [Emc-users] Old tek stuff

[Mark]

On 03/09/2016 02:52 PM, Marcus Bowman wrote:
> Yes; it is only the ageing capacitors in some of the equipment from that era 
> that lets the kit down.
> I never used Tek equipment, but did use the early Data General SuperNova in 
> the early 70s, then the DEC stuff, all of which was very well made. I smile 
> when folk say "Why does such-and-such a computer manufacturer have such high 
> prices?". Quality always costs. It usually pays too, although history tells 
> us those companies don't always survive (with the exception of Apple, of 
> course). The general public are price sensitive. It's pretty much the same 
> story with quality tools.
>
> Marcus
Jon and I have had numerous discussions back and forth here on the list 
about DEC and VMS.  I was a VMS sysadmin for years before moving over to 
he dark side of Unix.  DEC made bulletproof computing possible, both 
with the VMS OS and the qualification process they had for their 
hardware.  We had VAX VMS systems still up and running at NRL when I 
retired last year.

Mark

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Re: [Emc-users] Random quesion in regards to a gear sensor (maybe JonE)

[Mark]

On 03/09/2016 11:54 AM, sa...@empirescreen.com wrote:
> We purchased some gear tooth sensors in hopes of using one of the gears in 
> the K for a spindle encoder.  Well - we ended up putting a shaft encoder in 
> the gearbox.
>
> http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?keywords=620-1328-1-nd
>
> Well - move ahead a few years - We are putting a gear in the matsuura spindle 
> for an encoder.  the 2 sensors on the gear seem to work great for quadrature 
> signal.
>
> http://electronicsam.com/images/matsuura/sensors.jpg
> http://electronicsam.com/images/matsuura/oscope.jpg
>
> (that is 6000rpm)
>
>
> The issue is that we drilled about a .130 hole for the index but it acts odd. 
>  If you rotate the spindle one direction it will pass the index and stay high 
> until it passes the hole then you get a little index pulse low.  If you run 
> it the other direction it goes low after passing the index - and you get a 
> positive index pulse at every passing of the hole.  I think it should stay 
> low (or high) no matter what direction the spindle is turning (and get a 
> pulse every pass of the index hole).
>
> clear as mud?
> thanks
> sam

Damn Sam.  That scope has seen a coupla greasy fingers.  ;-)


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Re: [Emc-users] Old tek stuff

[Mark]

On 03/09/2016 11:01 AM, Cecil Thomas wrote:
> Mark,
> This is completely off topic but I thought you might be interested.
> I have a Tek 511-AD (Tek's first model) vintage somewhere around 1950
> or 51 that I managed to rescue from an outside pile of electrical
> scrap at McConnel AFB in Wichita Ks in 1971.
> It had been laying outside in the rain and snow for at least 3 months
> if not longer.
>
> I replaced the smashed CRT and made new shafts for a couple of
> control pots that had been sheared off when it was tossed of the
> truck and moved with the other trash in the bucket of a front end
> loader.  I went to the Base Precision Measuring Equipment Lab and
> asked if they still had the manual and they did.  It was they who
> surplussed the scope.  They didn't need the manual any more so they
> tossed it as well (to me).
>
> I brought the caps up slow with a variac and it fired right up.
>
> I can't think of a much better testimonial for a quality piece of
> equipment.  During that time period they used nothing but the best
> components and if no one made one good enough then they made it themselves.
>
> By the way, it still works.
>
> Cecil
Cecil,

That's pretty cool!  I'm more of a solid state kinda guy, though I did 
work on a few tube radios when I was a Comm/Nav avionics tech in the 
USAF before I got commissioned and got my wings.  Our shop in the 
maintenance squadron had only Tek scopes in it, and a bunch of them at that.

Most of the scope gear I futz around with now is from the 70's through 
early 90's.  Troubleshooting electronic problems is good for the mind.  ;-)

Mark

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