Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > I am thinking about split in two with real time threads on micro
> > controller and the computer for the user interface. It would also be a
> > flexible solution then it come to choice of user interface but require
> > extra hardware.
> >
> 
> If I were designing this in the current century (the 21st) I'd divide the
> functions roughly in to three (not two) and place them as follows
> 1) "Hard" real time functions, on a small micro processor not running any
> OS.  Maybe something like an ARM  I'd like size the uP so that it could
> handle four axis and use multiple uP if more axis were needed

Yes

> 2) The user interface _managment_ and higher level non-real time functions
> on a generic "Posix" platform (written in a portable high level language)
>  This could be a PC, Mac, Linux/86, LinuxARM)

Yes

> 3) Rendering of the GUI, that is driving the actual screen and
> mouse/keyboard.  This would be web-abased and like targeted to a mobile
> device like a cheep $100 Android but of course could run on the same
> machine as #2 above.

Then linuxcnc is split in two as in 1) and 2) above it is more or less done, 
Why not gtk as now?


> Another words just as you said except I'd drive the screen with some kind
> of network protocol (like HTML or whatever) that would be wireless if the
> user  prefers that.

On Linux there are X11 but I expect there would be a special purpose protocol 
between GUI and machine. In practice which buttons user pressed and values 
back. High speed values like encoder values for hal scope would not be a proble 
screen update is rather slow and a small delay would be a jerk on the screen 
not the part.

> ...

I plan to start looking at as soon as I get my first machines up and running.


Regards Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Gregg Eshelman]

Somewhere back in the archives of thedailywtf.com is one about when the company 
that wrote Wireshark got bought by another company. During integration of the 
two companies systems, the Wireshark guys used it to help sort things out, then 
one day it and some of their other software tools were banned from the network 
as malware.
The idiots running the company that bought them banned the very products they'd 
just bought from their own systems.



 
  From: Gene Heskett 

I would assume, if they are "calling home" that I could see the traffic 
with wireshark or tcpdump?  Hard to see in all the other traffic as I 
maintain an sshfs share, and an ssh login session to them all from here.  
So its pretty noisy in terms of net traffic here at the Heskett Cottage.

   
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Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

[Todd Zuercher]

Bringing back an older thread.  Went to start ordering the things I need for 
the update and noticed that the conduit to the machine isn't big enough for the 
new wiring.  Right now the 9 single phase circuits are run through two 3/4" 
conduits (4 in one 5 in the other).  would it be a really bad idea or against 
regs, to split the 3ph wiring between the 2 conduits? (2+ground in one and 
1+nutral in the other)

- Original Message -
From: "Gregg Eshelman" 
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" 
Sent: Saturday, February 6, 2016 6:10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rewire Question?

On 2/6/2016 3:23 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Make sure whatever you do that you have a way to lock out the main
> breaker in the off position.
> Osha wants to see that and it makes good sense.   Make sure you also
> have a couple of red "lock out padlocks" around also.  Keep one with
> your tools.
> I had a guy come up to me and ask what I was doing just as I was packing
> up my things after servicing a machine at a manufacturing plant.
> The idiot who was with him ( a plant management person ) failed to
> mention that he was an Osha enforcement guy so I explained what I had
> done and then the Osha guy introduced himself.
> He asked if I lockout the machines I work on and I just pointed at my
> lock hanging on my tool bag strap and said, there's my lock. The truth
> is that the machines are impossible to debug with the power off.  But
> that doesn't matter, as they will happily fine you regardless.The
> fines normally start with 4 digit numbers.
> I don't visit that plant much any longer.   They now ship the machines
> to another location so they can be serviced.   Their safety "rules" are
> so difficult to deal with that it makes no sense to try and do work in
> that plant.   For the same reason they can't keep any decent engineers
> or technicians at that location. I predict the plant will be closing
> within the next 5 years. The plant machinery will probably end up in
> Mexico.
> I'm all for being safe since it is my butt that is on the line, but
> there is a level of common sense that must be used.
>
> Osha and some plants seem to forget that from time to time.

On some other forum I read a post by a person who used to work in a shop 
when a new CNC machining center was installed.

 From where the controls were, it was impossible to see the tools to jog 
them into position if the door was closed. Open the door and nothing 
could be moved.

The fix was a wedge someone made to jimmy the door sensor so the 
operator could see into the machine when jogging it. It could be quickly 
removed if an inspector showed up.

That's what happens when a machine is so over-saftied, it forces 
operators to disable safety systems in order to make it usable. How it 
should have been built is either with the controls mounted so that the 
operator could see into the work space while standing at them, or the 
door safety should only have locked out the spindle and turret 
rotations, while limiting axis travel to slow speeds. That would have 
made setting up quicker and safe. Select the tool, open door and set 
position. Close door and select next tool. Repeat until all tools are set.


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 20 March 2016 04:28:35 Gregg Eshelman wrote:

> Somewhere back in the archives of thedailywtf.com is one about when
> the company that wrote Wireshark got bought by another company. During
> integration of the two companies systems, the Wireshark guys used it
> to help sort things out, then one day it and some of their other
> software tools were banned from the network as malware. The idiots
> running the company that bought them banned the very products they'd
> just bought from their own systems.

Thus reinforcing the fact that you can't fix stupid. And if they come 
from a winderz environment, its really hard to fix ignorant too.  
Sigh...

>
>   From: Gene Heskett 
>
> I would assume, if they are "calling home" that I could see the
> traffic with wireshark or tcpdump?  Hard to see in all the other
> traffic as I maintain an sshfs share, and an ssh login session to them
> all from here. So its pretty noisy in terms of net traffic here at the
> Heskett Cottage.
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[andy pugh]

On 16 March 2016 at 12:17, Erik Friesen  wrote:
> I have been doing some work with an i.mx6 of late, and wonder why the quad
> couldn't do linuxcnc?  It seems there is some obscure reason I read
> somewhere.


http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/

Shows that we are building an armhf variant of LinuxCNC for preempt-rt kernels.

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designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Erik Friesen]

FYI, the nxgen controller runs around $15K.

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 12:10 PM, andy pugh  wrote:

> On 16 March 2016 at 15:52, W. Martinjak  wrote:
>
> >> The problem with the Pi is that the obvious choice for IO, Ethernet,
> >> is  connected via the USB bus.
> >>
> >
> > But SPI works well and in conjunction with an FPGA/CPLD very well.
>
> That might be an interesting setup with:
>
> http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=83_85&product_id=291
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> Preempt-RT will be mainlined into stock linux fairly soon now so its just 
> becomes a kernel config option but I doubt real time kernels will ever be 
> standard for common desktop distributions as they typically have 
> lower performance (excluding latency)  than non RT kernels

There exist natural real time tasks like serial receive buffers in Linux. Then 
I started to work a few years ago programming an 8-bit micro controller they 
did not have nested interrupts with priority while some of the new ARM cortex-* 
CPUs used in many micro controllers have today.

To put it another way: With priorities handled correct for interrupts all work 
appropiate for this priority level could be done within interrupt handler. Old 
style without priority is to exit interrupt handler as soon as possible which 
still may hold off higher priority tasks and shuffle away work until later but 
then should it be done?


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Chris Albertson]

On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > I am thinking about split in two with real time threads on micro
> > > controller and the computer for the user interface. It would also be a
> > > flexible solution then it come to choice of user interface but require
> > > extra hardware.
> > >
> >
> > If I were designing this in the current century (the 21st) I'd divide the
> > functions roughly in to three (not two) and place them as follows
> > 1) "Hard" real time functions, on a small micro processor not running any
> > OS.  Maybe something like an ARM  I'd like size the uP so that it could
> > handle four axis and use multiple uP if more axis were needed
>
> Yes
>
> > 2) The user interface _managment_ and higher level non-real time
> functions
> > on a generic "Posix" platform (written in a portable high level language)
> >  This could be a PC, Mac, Linux/86, LinuxARM)
>
> Yes
>

How to connect the little uP to the larger computer?  WiFi?  Will the uP
run some OS?
Take a look at the RISC OS for ARM.  It uses "cooperative multitasking"
which means your task runs on the bare hardware with interrupts disabled if
you like
"eCos" might be better.

Could this little uP running (say) eCos actually be a soft-core CPU
implemented inside an FPGA?  That runs the cost up but gives access to
nearly unlimited hardware support for pulse generation and even directly
doing micro stepping.

>
> > 3) Rendering of the GUI, that is driving the actual screen and
> > mouse/keyboard.  This would be web-abased and like targeted to a mobile
> > device like a cheep $100 Android but of course could run on the same
> > machine as #2 above.
>
> Then linuxcnc is split in two as in 1) and 2) above it is more or less
> done, Why not gtk as now?
>

1) Because it will not be long before someone wants to re-build the PC part
on (say) an iPhone.  Why not?  Why even use a PC at all?
2) A mouse is hard to use in a shop environment while standing up.  The
glass touch screen works better.  Should at least preserve the option in
the future to use a glass touch screen and multi touch gestures
3) does GTK run on all the platforms users might want to run on.   You know
the first platform to be requested is the Raspberry Pi3.  Then if it runs
on that ARM based system why not the iPad?  In 5 years all home computers
will have touch screens like the "surface" and all but server class
machines may be running on ARM not Intel.
4) 3D touch is becoming popular and may go mainstream.  Will GTK do 3D
touch?  It would be a nice feature you look at a "cut through" of a 3D part
you are making and the pressure of your finger changes the z-axis cut
plane.  Or in a simulation pressure moves the time line or the speed of the
simulation.   People's expectations are moving and a 1990's style GIU will
look silly in the 2020's (which are only four years away.  Pick something
that will still be cutting edge in 2020.

>
>
> > Another words just as you said except I'd drive the screen with some kind
> > of network protocol (like HTML or whatever) that would be wireless if the
> > user  prefers that.
>
> On Linux there are X11 but I expect there would be a special purpose
> protocol between GUI and machine. In practice which buttons user pressed
> and values back.
>
> So yo are going to update the protocol every time you update the GUI?
Use something that already exists.   HTML5 might work


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Ralph Stirling]

The MachineKit folk are a year or two ahead of you guys
in thinking about the distributed control approach.  You
ought to go over to their site and study their roadmap in
detail before spending lots of time reinventing wheels again.
They use zeromq and protobuf for communication between
the various components of the motion control system (trajectory
planner, hal, gui, etc).  This runs over ethernet.  They have
built their code to run on everything from x86, to ARM
(BeagleBoneBlack, RPi2), to SOC fpga's.  So check out
http://machinekit.io, and subscribe to their email list or forum.
It is still very bleeding edge, and under heavy development.
If you want to set up machines and run them, stick with
LinuxCNC, if you want to mostly tinker and try out new ideas,
then MachineKit might be the ticket.  Eventually it will be a
powerful platform.

-- Ralph

From: Chris Albertson [albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 9:38 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

On Sun, Mar 20, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Nicklas Karlsson <
nicklas.karlsso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > I am thinking about split in two with real time threads on micro
> > > controller and the computer for the user interface. It would also be a
> > > flexible solution then it come to choice of user interface but require
> > > extra hardware.
> > >
> >
> > If I were designing this in the current century (the 21st) I'd divide the
> > functions roughly in to three (not two) and place them as follows
> > 1) "Hard" real time functions, on a small micro processor not running any
> > OS.  Maybe something like an ARM  I'd like size the uP so that it could
> > handle four axis and use multiple uP if more axis were needed
>
> Yes
>
> > 2) The user interface _managment_ and higher level non-real time
> functions
> > on a generic "Posix" platform (written in a portable high level language)
> >  This could be a PC, Mac, Linux/86, LinuxARM)
>
> Yes
>

How to connect the little uP to the larger computer?  WiFi?  Will the uP
run some OS?
Take a look at the RISC OS for ARM.  It uses "cooperative multitasking"
which means your task runs on the bare hardware with interrupts disabled if
you like
"eCos" might be better.

Could this little uP running (say) eCos actually be a soft-core CPU
implemented inside an FPGA?  That runs the cost up but gives access to
nearly unlimited hardware support for pulse generation and even directly
doing micro stepping.

>
> > 3) Rendering of the GUI, that is driving the actual screen and
> > mouse/keyboard.  This would be web-abased and like targeted to a mobile
> > device like a cheep $100 Android but of course could run on the same
> > machine as #2 above.
>
> Then linuxcnc is split in two as in 1) and 2) above it is more or less
> done, Why not gtk as now?
>

1) Because it will not be long before someone wants to re-build the PC part
on (say) an iPhone.  Why not?  Why even use a PC at all?
2) A mouse is hard to use in a shop environment while standing up.  The
glass touch screen works better.  Should at least preserve the option in
the future to use a glass touch screen and multi touch gestures
3) does GTK run on all the platforms users might want to run on.   You know
the first platform to be requested is the Raspberry Pi3.  Then if it runs
on that ARM based system why not the iPad?  In 5 years all home computers
will have touch screens like the "surface" and all but server class
machines may be running on ARM not Intel.
4) 3D touch is becoming popular and may go mainstream.  Will GTK do 3D
touch?  It would be a nice feature you look at a "cut through" of a 3D part
you are making and the pressure of your finger changes the z-axis cut
plane.  Or in a simulation pressure moves the time line or the speed of the
simulation.   People's expectations are moving and a 1990's style GIU will
look silly in the 2020's (which are only four years away.  Pick something
that will still be cutting edge in 2020.

>
>
> > Another words just as you said except I'd drive the screen with some kind
> > of network protocol (like HTML or whatever) that would be wireless if the
> > user  prefers that.
>
> On Linux there are X11 but I expect there would be a special purpose
> protocol between GUI and machine. In practice which buttons user pressed
> and values back.
>
> So yo are going to update the protocol every time you update the GUI?
Use something that already exists.   HTML5 might work


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[bari]

How real time do you want the GUI? Is a few second lag behind the 
machines state ok? How about E-stop or Start/Stop from the UI? What's 
safe? 1 second max, 10 seconds? If you are milling while at the beach 
miles away does it matter? What problem are we solving?

On 03/20/2016 02:10 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> Then linuxcnc is split in two as in 1) and 2) above it is more or less done, 
> Why not gtk as now?
>
>
>> >Another words just as you said except I'd drive the screen with some kind
>> >of network protocol (like HTML or whatever) that would be wireless if the
>> >user  prefers that.
> On Linux there are X11 but I expect there would be a special purpose protocol 
> between GUI and machine. In practice which buttons user pressed and values 
> back. High speed values like encoder values for hal scope would not be a 
> proble screen update is rather slow and a small delay would be a jerk on the 
> screen not the part.
>
>> >...
> I plan to start looking at as soon as I get my first machines up and running.


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[bari]

How have they lowered the cost of the control and GUI hardware?

I'd like to have a machine controller and GUI for less than the cost of 
a new low cost x86 PC and display. Is there a working BOM yet for this?

On 03/20/2016 11:51 AM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> The MachineKit folk are a year or two ahead of you guys
> in thinking about the distributed control approach.  You
> ought to go over to their site and study their roadmap in
> detail before spending lots of time reinventing wheels again.
> They use zeromq and protobuf for communication between
> the various components of the motion control system (trajectory
> planner, hal, gui, etc).  This runs over ethernet.  They have
> built their code to run on everything from x86, to ARM
> (BeagleBoneBlack, RPi2), to SOC fpga's.  So check out
> http://machinekit.io, and subscribe to their email list or forum.
> It is still very bleeding edge, and under heavy development.
> If you want to set up machines and run them, stick with
> LinuxCNC, if you want to mostly tinker and try out new ideas,
> then MachineKit might be the ticket.  Eventually it will be a
> powerful platform.
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 03/16/2016 08:25 AM, W. Martinjak wrote:
> It's emty.
>
> http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/dists/wheezy/2.7-rtpreempt/binary-armhf/
> http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/dists/wheezy/master-rtpreempt/binary-armhf/

We build and test on arm, but we currently don't produce debian packages.

LinuxCNC 2.7 and newer work on Wheezy on armhf, you just have to build 
it yourself:

http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1405.rip-wheezy-armhf


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Ralph Stirling]

I don't think their immediate focus is lowering cost, but in reorganizing
the system for distributed modularity.  The  basic BBB implementation
is pretty low cost, though, and is in use by a lot of people for 3d printing.

They have a gui running on Android devices, so you can have a $40 BBB,
a $70 "cape" that connects four stepper motors, and your phone for gui.
The step pulse generation is done by the PRU module in the BBB's ARM
processor.

Check them out, don't rely on my summary.

-- Ralph

From: bari [bari00...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 10:02 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

How have they lowered the cost of the control and GUI hardware?

I'd like to have a machine controller and GUI for less than the cost of
a new low cost x86 PC and display. Is there a working BOM yet for this?

On 03/20/2016 11:51 AM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> The MachineKit folk are a year or two ahead of you guys
> in thinking about the distributed control approach.  You
> ought to go over to their site and study their roadmap in
> detail before spending lots of time reinventing wheels again.
> They use zeromq and protobuf for communication between
> the various components of the motion control system (trajectory
> planner, hal, gui, etc).  This runs over ethernet.  They have
> built their code to run on everything from x86, to ARM
> (BeagleBoneBlack, RPi2), to SOC fpga's.  So check out
> http://machinekit.io, and subscribe to their email list or forum.
> It is still very bleeding edge, and under heavy development.
> If you want to set up machines and run them, stick with
> LinuxCNC, if you want to mostly tinker and try out new ideas,
> then MachineKit might be the ticket.  Eventually it will be a
> powerful platform.
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[bari]

It sounds like it's more fun than practical. My Android phone hardly 
works as a phone. I can't imagine using it to control a VMC. I'd like to 
see an old 60's TV as a GUI with a re-purposed Calliope used for a 
keyboard or similar.

On 03/20/2016 12:19 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> I don't think their immediate focus is lowering cost, but in reorganizing
> the system for distributed modularity.  The  basic BBB implementation
> is pretty low cost, though, and is in use by a lot of people for 3d printing.
>
> They have a gui running on Android devices, so you can have a $40 BBB,
> a $70 "cape" that connects four stepper motors, and your phone for gui.
> The step pulse generation is done by the PRU module in the BBB's ARM
> processor.
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Jon Elson]

On 03/20/2016 11:51 AM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> The MachineKit folk are a year or two ahead of you guys
> in thinking about the distributed control approach.  You
> ought to go over to their site and study their roadmap in
> detail before spending lots of time reinventing wheels again.
> They use zeromq and protobuf for communication between
> the various components of the motion control system (trajectory
> planner, hal, gui, etc).  This runs over ethernet.  They have
> built their code to run on everything from x86, to ARM
> (BeagleBoneBlack, RPi2), to SOC fpga's.  So check out
> http://machinekit.io, and subscribe to their email list or forum.
> It is still very bleeding edge, and under heavy development.
> If you want to set up machines and run them, stick with
> LinuxCNC, if you want to mostly tinker and try out new ideas,
> then MachineKit might be the ticket.  Eventually it will be a
> powerful platform.
>
Yes, all of the above.  PLUS, the Beagle Bone has a BUILT IN 
deterministic microcontroller that runs at 200 MHz.
So, you get instructions in 5 ns, plenty fast for most step 
generation, PWM and such tasks.  (There are actually TWO of 
these microcontrollers, but I think they only support one at 
the moment.) The CRAMPS board (don't really care for the 
name!) holds up to 6 Pololu-style step drivers plus a lot of 
other useful I/O.  I run it over Ethernet, you can also 
connect to it with IP over USB.

Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Jon Elson]

On 03/20/2016 11:57 AM, bari wrote:
> How real time do you want the GUI? Is a few second lag behind the
> machines state ok? How about E-stop or Start/Stop from the UI? What's
> safe? 1 second max, 10 seconds? If you are milling while at the beach
> miles away does it matter? What problem are we solving?
>
>
E-stop should be handled with a hardware approach.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Jon Elson]

On 03/20/2016 12:02 PM, bari wrote:
> How have they lowered the cost of the control and GUI hardware?
>
>
Pololu-style drivers are under $5 from China, I use the 8825 
version, good up to about 2 A at modest voltage.

The CRAMPS board (that I make to Charles Steinkuehler's 
design) is $79.95, and mounts up to 6 Pololu-style drivers, 
and handles 6 limits switch inputs.  It also has inputs for 
4 temperature sensors (or other analog inputs) and 3 heater 
outputs and two fans or LED lights, or whatever you want.  
The latter stuff is aimed at 3D printers.

The Beagle Bone is currently available for about $55.

So, a complete controller for a 3-axis machine can be set up 
for $150 plus power supplies.  You can connect an LCD panel, 
keyboard and mouse directly, or use a laptop or other 
computer through USB or Ethernet for the human interface.

Jon

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[Emc-users] 64 bit question

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

I have an impending amanda drive failure, and my browsers are all 
suffering from a lack of 32 bit support to boot, so I am finally 
considering installing a 64 bit debian jessie.

Can I still run the sim axis version on that?  Or better yet, have you 
respun the install image for a 64 bit jessie based install?, in which 
case I should pull a new copy.  I would much rather install from an 
image you've done, its a lot less painfull in previous usage.

Thanks for any guidance on this.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> > > > I am thinking about split in two with real time threads on micro
> > > > controller and the computer for the user interface. It would also be a
> > > > flexible solution then it come to choice of user interface but require
> > > > extra hardware.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If I were designing this in the current century (the 21st) I'd divide the
> > > functions roughly in to three (not two) and place them as follows
> > > 1) "Hard" real time functions, on a small micro processor not running any
> > > OS.  Maybe something like an ARM  I'd like size the uP so that it could
> > > handle four axis and use multiple uP if more axis were needed
> >
> > Yes
> >
> > > 2) The user interface _managment_ and higher level non-real time
> > functions
> > > on a generic "Posix" platform (written in a portable high level language)
> > >  This could be a PC, Mac, Linux/86, LinuxARM)
> >
> > Yes
> >
> 
> How to connect the little uP to the larger computer?  WiFi?  Will the uP
> run some OS?

This will be the interface between them and is an important point. WiFi, 
Ethernet, UART or whatever should not be important. What should matter is 
format of data sent.

> Could this little uP running (say) eCos actually be a soft-core CPU
> implemented inside an FPGA?  That runs the cost up but gives access to
> nearly unlimited hardware support for pulse generation and even directly
> doing micro stepping.

What kind of CPU used for real time should not matter very much. If real time 
threads are implemented as functions called regularly it should work equally 
well to call them from an operating system as from an interrupt.

Then it come to FPGA most seems to think about signal generation although 
current micro controllers are very good at this. A FPGA may however implement 
as many SPI ports as needed which is a fast communication bus available on most 
micro controllers. It use three singel direction lines which may be isolated 
cheap and maximum speed is usually in the range 15-50Mbit/s.

> > > 3) Rendering of the GUI, that is driving the actual screen and
> > > mouse/keyboard.  This would be web-abased and like targeted to a mobile
> > > device like a cheep $100 Android but of course could run on the same
> > > machine as #2 above.
> >
> > Then linuxcnc is split in two as in 1) and 2) above it is more or less
> > done, Why not gtk as now?
> >
> 
> 1) Because it will not be long before someone wants to re-build the PC part
> on (say) an iPhone.  Why not?  Why even use a PC at all?

Then GUI have been split in two it should work equally to send command from a 
GUI as from some kind of other software. For example tell linuxcnc to machine a 
part, wait for it to finnish then tell a robot to remove the part or whatever 
is needed.


> > So yo are going to update the protocol every time you update the GUI?

If you ssh a linux computer possible with the "-x" switch this is exactly what 
X11 do today. It can run a graphical program remotely.

> Use something that already exists.   HTML5 might work

Or same as today, I think it is GTK. Everything already exist within Linuxcnc 
so nothing new need to be invented.


Nicklas Karlsson

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Same problem as ordinary software except the emergency stop. I expect there 
would be big red hard wired button for emergency stop as usual.

The problem solved is demand for GUI is same or at least similar as for other 
software.



On Sun, 20 Mar 2016 11:57:18 -0500
bari  wrote:

> How real time do you want the GUI? Is a few second lag behind the 
> machines state ok? How about E-stop or Start/Stop from the UI? What's 
> safe? 1 second max, 10 seconds? If you are milling while at the beach 
> miles away does it matter? What problem are we solving?
> 
> On 03/20/2016 02:10 AM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
> > Then linuxcnc is split in two as in 1) and 2) above it is more or less 
> > done, Why not gtk as now?
> >
> >
> >> >Another words just as you said except I'd drive the screen with some kind
> >> >of network protocol (like HTML or whatever) that would be wireless if the
> >> >user  prefers that.
> > On Linux there are X11 but I expect there would be a special purpose 
> > protocol between GUI and machine. In practice which buttons user pressed 
> > and values back. High speed values like encoder values for hal scope would 
> > not be a proble screen update is rather slow and a small delay would be a 
> > jerk on the screen not the part.
> >
> >> >...
> > I plan to start looking at as soon as I get my first machines up and 
> > running.
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Micro controllers with SPI or UART is the cheap stuff for control of switches 
for servo motors. Ether with or without cat is the expensive stuff at least 
compared to the cost of a cheap micro controller. One important point is also 
communication distances within a CNC machine is usually short.


> How have they lowered the cost of the control and GUI hardware?
> 
> I'd like to have a machine controller and GUI for less than the cost of 
> a new low cost x86 PC and display. Is there a working BOM yet for this?
> 
> On 03/20/2016 11:51 AM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> > The MachineKit folk are a year or two ahead of you guys
> > in thinking about the distributed control approach.  You
> > ought to go over to their site and study their roadmap in
> > detail before spending lots of time reinventing wheels again.
> > They use zeromq and protobuf for communication between
> > the various components of the motion control system (trajectory
> > planner, hal, gui, etc).  This runs over ethernet.  They have
> > built their code to run on everything from x86, to ARM
> > (BeagleBoneBlack, RPi2), to SOC fpga's.  So check out
> > http://machinekit.io, and subscribe to their email list or forum.
> > It is still very bleeding edge, and under heavy development.
> > If you want to set up machines and run them, stick with
> > LinuxCNC, if you want to mostly tinker and try out new ideas,
> > then MachineKit might be the ticket.  Eventually it will be a
> > powerful platform.
> >
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Nicklas Karlsson]

It might also be as simple as company selling BBB employ people to make it work 
well on their hardware. I got the impression BBB is good hardware for 3D 
printers and similar. For a CNC machine with an computer screen I am however 
not sure.


On Sun, 20 Mar 2016 17:19:07 +
Ralph Stirling  wrote:

> I don't think their immediate focus is lowering cost, but in reorganizing
> the system for distributed modularity.  The  basic BBB implementation
> is pretty low cost, though, and is in use by a lot of people for 3d printing.
> 
> They have a gui running on Android devices, so you can have a $40 BBB,
> a $70 "cape" that connects four stepper motors, and your phone for gui.
> The step pulse generation is done by the PRU module in the BBB's ARM
> processor.
> 
> Check them out, don't rely on my summary.
> 
> -- Ralph
> 
> From: bari [bari00...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2016 10:02 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm
> 
> How have they lowered the cost of the control and GUI hardware?
> 
> I'd like to have a machine controller and GUI for less than the cost of
> a new low cost x86 PC and display. Is there a working BOM yet for this?
> 
> On 03/20/2016 11:51 AM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> > The MachineKit folk are a year or two ahead of you guys
> > in thinking about the distributed control approach.  You
> > ought to go over to their site and study their roadmap in
> > detail before spending lots of time reinventing wheels again.
> > They use zeromq and protobuf for communication between
> > the various components of the motion control system (trajectory
> > planner, hal, gui, etc).  This runs over ethernet.  They have
> > built their code to run on everything from x86, to ARM
> > (BeagleBoneBlack, RPi2), to SOC fpga's.  So check out
> > http://machinekit.io, and subscribe to their email list or forum.
> > It is still very bleeding edge, and under heavy development.
> > If you want to set up machines and run them, stick with
> > LinuxCNC, if you want to mostly tinker and try out new ideas,
> > then MachineKit might be the ticket.  Eventually it will be a
> > powerful platform.
> >
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[Nicklas Karlsson]

Then it come to telephones real buttons are at an advantage then dialing. The 
touch screen is however nice for other purposes.



On Sun, 20 Mar 2016 12:50:44 -0500
bari  wrote:

> It sounds like it's more fun than practical. My Android phone hardly 
> works as a phone. I can't imagine using it to control a VMC. I'd like to 
> see an old 60's TV as a GUI with a re-purposed Calliope used for a 
> keyboard or similar.
> 
> On 03/20/2016 12:19 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
> > I don't think their immediate focus is lowering cost, but in reorganizing
> > the system for distributed modularity.  The  basic BBB implementation
> > is pretty low cost, though, and is in use by a lot of people for 3d 
> > printing.
> >
> > They have a gui running on Android devices, so you can have a $40 BBB,
> > a $70 "cape" that connects four stepper motors, and your phone for gui.
> > The step pulse generation is done by the PRU module in the BBB's ARM
> > processor.
> >
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] 64 bit question

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 03/20/2016 12:50 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
> 
> I have an impending amanda drive failure, and my browsers are all 
> suffering from a lack of 32 bit support to boot, so I am finally 
> considering installing a 64 bit debian jessie.
> 
> Can I still run the sim axis version on that?  Or better yet, have you 
> respun the install image for a 64 bit jessie based install?, in which 
> case I should pull a new copy.  I would much rather install from an 
> image you've done, its a lot less painfull in previous usage.

Yep, LinuxCNC Sim (aka Uspace) runs great on Jessie 64-bit, and we
publish debs at www.linuxcnc.org and from the buildbot.

We do not have a realtime kernel for Jessie, but that's not needed for
simulation.


-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] 64 bit question

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 20 March 2016 16:12:00 Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:

> On 03/20/2016 12:50 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > I have an impending amanda drive failure, and my browsers are all
> > suffering from a lack of 32 bit support to boot, so I am finally
> > considering installing a 64 bit debian jessie.
> >
> > Can I still run the sim axis version on that?  Or better yet, have
> > you respun the install image for a 64 bit jessie based install?, in
> > which case I should pull a new copy.  I would much rather install
> > from an image you've done, its a lot less painfull in previous
> > usage.
>
> Yep, LinuxCNC Sim (aka Uspace) runs great on Jessie 64-bit, and we
> publish debs at www.linuxcnc.org and from the buildbot.
>
> We do not have a realtime kernel for Jessie, but that's not needed for
> simulation.

Good, thanks Sebastian.  Can I assume the RT version is being hacked on 
when time permits?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] 64 bit question

[Sebastian Kuzminsky]

On 03/20/2016 04:18 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 20 March 2016 16:12:00 Sebastian Kuzminsky wrote:
> 
>> On 03/20/2016 12:50 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Greetings all;
>>>
>>> I have an impending amanda drive failure, and my browsers are all
>>> suffering from a lack of 32 bit support to boot, so I am finally
>>> considering installing a 64 bit debian jessie.
>>>
>>> Can I still run the sim axis version on that?  Or better yet, have
>>> you respun the install image for a 64 bit jessie based install?, in
>>> which case I should pull a new copy.  I would much rather install
>>> from an image you've done, its a lot less painfull in previous
>>> usage.
>>
>> Yep, LinuxCNC Sim (aka Uspace) runs great on Jessie 64-bit, and we
>> publish debs at www.linuxcnc.org and from the buildbot.
>>
>> We do not have a realtime kernel for Jessie, but that's not needed for
>> simulation.
> 
> Good, thanks Sebastian.  Can I assume the RT version is being hacked on 
> when time permits?

Sure.

I made RTAI kernel packages for Jessie (both 32-bit and 64-bit), they're
currently available in the linuxcnc.org debian archive.

But they were not stable when running on the virtual machines in the
buildbot.  It's unclear to me whether that's because of a bad
interaction between the RTAI patchset and the virtualized nature of the
buildbot, or whether it's because of some more deep-seated problem with
the new RTAI kernels.


-- 
Sebastian Kuzminsky

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Re: [Emc-users] Linuxcnc on arm

[TJoseph Powderly]

555 ( hahaha in Thai )
no! use old hammond organ for that buzzy sound
reminds me of herbie hancock 'rockit'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhD4PD75zY
tomp

On 03/21/2016 01:50 AM, bari wrote:
> It sounds like it's more fun than practical. My Android phone hardly
> works as a phone. I can't imagine using it to control a VMC. I'd like to
> see an old 60's TV as a GUI with a re-purposed Calliope used for a
> keyboard or similar.
>
> On 03/20/2016 12:19 PM, Ralph Stirling wrote:
>> I don't think their immediate focus is lowering cost, but in reorganizing
>> the system for distributed modularity.  The  basic BBB implementation
>> is pretty low cost, though, and is in use by a lot of people for 3d printing.
>>
>> They have a gui running on Android devices, so you can have a $40 BBB,
>> a $70 "cape" that connects four stepper motors, and your phone for gui.
>> The step pulse generation is done by the PRU module in the BBB's ARM
>> processor.
>>
>>
>
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