Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[dave]

On Sat, 2014-03-29 at 15:02 -0400, John Kasunich wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Mar 29, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 03/29/2014 03:39 AM, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My 1080 pound 4x5 foot granite surface has a glass cut looking surface 
> > > that I bought surplus.
> > > Anyways, do you think the reason it is shiny is because it is grade A, 
> > > while the grade B should be matte?
> > >
> > >
> > It is most likely an optical bench, made to be extremely 
> > stable and free
> > of vibration, and probably had air bellows supporting it.  
> > It is probably
> > NOT a surface plate, ie. one that is ground with diamond 
> > paste to
> > be flat to within some insane tolerance for inspection purposes.
> > The fact it has a mirror finish means it was polished, not 
> > lapped
> > against other plates, in the time-honored 3-plate method of
> > automatic generation of flats.
> > 
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with Jon.  When I saw the photo I
> thought it looked pretty thin to be a surface plate.  A little
> googling says a 48x60 surface plate is typically 6 or 8
> inches thick and weighs over 2000 lbs.  A thinner plate 
> will sag from its own weight.  Not a problem for an 
> optical bench, as long as it is stable.  Big problem for
> a surface plate.
> 
Some years ago when Boeing Surplus - Kent was still open they were
selling a base for a CMM. Maybe 1.5 m square and 30 cm thick pink
granite with another maybe 1 m square by 30 cm thick granite centered 
under it and I assume epoxied to it. Good buy if you needed one .. $400
or so and they would load it for you. ;-)

Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Dave Cole]

On 3/29/2014 8:48 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 03/29/2014 01:37 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Are you familiar with Optical benches/tables? I bought a
>> 5'x8' ground cast iron optical table that is supported by
>> air bellows although a couple of them are missing. It was
>> made in three sections and then pinned together. It has a
>> few small holes in it that were used to attach things to
>> it. But it has barely been used. I was thinking of using
>> it as a setup table for weldments, but it is almost too
>> nice for that.
> Ewww, horrors!  Well, maybe a cast iron one isn't so crazy
> expensive,
> but the granite ones go for $100K.
>
> Jon

Well, I haven't used it for anything yet.

I'd sell it for a lot less than $100k!  :-)

I'm sure this unit was not cheap.

Dave





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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Jon Elson]

On 03/29/2014 01:37 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> Are you familiar with Optical benches/tables? I bought a 
> 5'x8' ground cast iron optical table that is supported by 
> air bellows although a couple of them are missing. It was 
> made in three sections and then pinned together. It has a 
> few small holes in it that were used to attach things to 
> it. But it has barely been used. I was thinking of using 
> it as a setup table for weldments, but it is almost too 
> nice for that.
Ewww, horrors!  Well, maybe a cast iron one isn't so crazy 
expensive,
but the granite ones go for $100K.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[John Kasunich]

On Sat, Mar 29, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 03/29/2014 03:39 AM, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > My 1080 pound 4x5 foot granite surface has a glass cut looking surface that 
> > I bought surplus.
> > Anyways, do you think the reason it is shiny is because it is grade A, 
> > while the grade B should be matte?
> >
> >
> It is most likely an optical bench, made to be extremely 
> stable and free
> of vibration, and probably had air bellows supporting it.  
> It is probably
> NOT a surface plate, ie. one that is ground with diamond 
> paste to
> be flat to within some insane tolerance for inspection purposes.
> The fact it has a mirror finish means it was polished, not 
> lapped
> against other plates, in the time-honored 3-plate method of
> automatic generation of flats.
> 

I'm inclined to agree with Jon.  When I saw the photo I
thought it looked pretty thin to be a surface plate.  A little
googling says a 48x60 surface plate is typically 6 or 8
inches thick and weighs over 2000 lbs.  A thinner plate 
will sag from its own weight.  Not a problem for an 
optical bench, as long as it is stable.  Big problem for
a surface plate.

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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Dave Cole]

On 3/29/2014 11:01 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 03/29/2014 03:39 AM, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
>>
>>
>> My 1080 pound 4x5 foot granite surface has a glass cut looking surface that 
>> I bought surplus.
>> Anyways, do you think the reason it is shiny is because it is grade A, while 
>> the grade B should be matte?
>>
>>
> It is most likely an optical bench, made to be extremely
> stable and free
> of vibration, and probably had air bellows supporting it.
> It is probably
> NOT a surface plate, ie. one that is ground with diamond
> paste to
> be flat to within some insane tolerance for inspection purposes.
> The fact it has a mirror finish means it was polished, not
> lapped
> against other plates, in the time-honored 3-plate method of
> automatic generation of flats.
>
> Jon
>
> urceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Jon,

Are you familiar with Optical benches/tables?   I bought a 5'x8' ground 
cast iron optical table that is supported by air bellows although a 
couple of them are missing.It was made in three sections and then 
pinned together.

It has a few small holes in it that were used to attach things to it.   
But it has barely been used.

I was thinking of using it as a setup table for weldments, but it is 
almost too nice for that.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 29 March 2014 12:41:32 Jeshua Lacock did opine:

> On Mar 28, 2014, at 5:35 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> I just received a grade B granite surface that has a very dull/matte
> >> finish. I was planning to use it for both reference and photography
> >> and the image advertised showed it glossy (which is why I ordered
> >> it). I contacted the vendor and they told me it is impossible to
> >> make granite have a natural gloss to it. At the same time, my other
> >> granite surface is shiny as glass.
> > 
> > Me thinks you need to escalate that with your source, he is lying. Go
> > look at any tombstone. I have  a 12 x 18 I carried out the door of
> > Grizzly up in Muncy PA several years back that is just like a mirror,
> > but fairly close to black.
> 
> I thought the same thing Gene, but sense I think I would have to pay for
> shipping back it is a loose loose situation for me unless I can pretty
> the darn stone up.

I think, since what you are using it for, that you couldn't damage it by 
finding some real carnaba wax, melting some of it into a sheepskin bonnet 
for a polisher, and then really bearing down to warm up the sheepskin and 
apply the polish.  It shouldn't effect the surface accuracy as it will 
basically just fill the pores.  But leave the car polishes at the store, 
they are generally as much abrasive as cheap wax.  I have about 1 oz left 
in a pound can of "TreWax" that I have been using on gun metal for a 
parting agent when glass bedding poorly bedded rifles for the last 50 
years.  It is as close to the real stuff as I could find.  The real stuff 
is very hard at room temps.  So is this stuff in its old age.
 
> Besides the money, it would be a bet of a set back for my schedule.
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Jeshua Lacock
> Founder/Engineer
> 3DTOPO Incorporated
> 
> Phone: 208.462.4171
> 
> 
> 
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Jon Elson]

On 03/29/2014 03:39 AM, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
>
>
>
> My 1080 pound 4x5 foot granite surface has a glass cut looking surface that I 
> bought surplus.
> Anyways, do you think the reason it is shiny is because it is grade A, while 
> the grade B should be matte?
>
>
It is most likely an optical bench, made to be extremely 
stable and free
of vibration, and probably had air bellows supporting it.  
It is probably
NOT a surface plate, ie. one that is ground with diamond 
paste to
be flat to within some insane tolerance for inspection purposes.
The fact it has a mirror finish means it was polished, not 
lapped
against other plates, in the time-honored 3-plate method of
automatic generation of flats.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Lester Caine]

Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> The reason I got my new surface was so that I could have a studio 
> semi-permanetly set up for most shots I need, then if I needed a bigger 
> surface I could set up the studio in the shop.
I have a convenient 1.2mt square granite work surface and a long 70cm wide run 
around the walls which I get access to from time to time - when SWMBO is not in 
;)
It's the kitchen work surface ... with a pinky shade.

Granite is porous and we were supplied with a bottle of sealer with 
instructions 
to wash the surface down, leave to dry naturally over night with the kitchen 
warm and then apply sealant. That was 12+ years ago and I've lost the bottle 
long ago, but the surface is as shiny as the day it was installed, and while 
not 
micro accurate is more than flat enough for my needs :)

If I have an accurate job to do it just gets a run over with the scrapper prior 
to use to ensure any remains from it's other uses are removed ... You will see 
it in the background of many of the shots on the website as the array of low 
voltage halogen bulbs in the canopy provide a nice even light :)

-- 
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Jeshua Lacock]

On Mar 28, 2014, at 5:35 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>> I just received a grade B granite surface that has a very dull/matte
>> finish. I was planning to use it for both reference and photography and
>> the image advertised showed it glossy (which is why I ordered it). I
>> contacted the vendor and they told me it is impossible to make granite
>> have a natural gloss to it. At the same time, my other granite surface
>> is shiny as glass.
> 
> Me thinks you need to escalate that with your source, he is lying. Go look 
> at any tombstone. I have  a 12 x 18 I carried out the door of Grizzly up in 
> Muncy PA several years back that is just like a mirror, but fairly close to 
> black.

I thought the same thing Gene, but sense I think I would have to pay for 
shipping back it is a loose loose situation for me unless I can pretty the darn 
stone up.

Besides the money, it would be a bet of a set back for my schedule.


Best,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Jeshua Lacock]

On Mar 28, 2014, at 9:22 PM, John Kasunich  wrote:

> Do NOT do that to a precision plate in an ISO9000
> shop.  But if he is determined to make his cheap
> grade B plate shiny, then why not?

Thanks for all the information everyone.

My 1080 pound 4x5 foot granite surface has a glass cut looking surface that I 
bought surplus. It was used for laser measuring/referencing, but other than 
that the vendor had no idea what they had (in fact he wasn't even sure it was 
granite, thought it might be marble, but I knew they don't make surfaces out of 
marble). It has 6 holes spaced equally around it and two tiny red plastic 
phillips screws or something like that on the sides. A picture of it is here:



Anyways, do you think the reason it is shiny is because it is grade A, while 
the grade B should be matte?

Yeah if I didn't have to take pretty pictures of it I really would not care 
what it looks like. But that Gorton is a beauty!

The reason I got my new surface was so that I could have a studio 
semi-permanetly set up for most shots I need, then if I needed a bigger surface 
I could set up the studio in the shop.



Thanks again,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 3/28/2014 6:20 PM, andy pugh wrote:

> I want this one.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gorton-Master-Surface-Plate-Historical-Vintage-Original-8000lbs-MSP-1928-/161246759544?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258b0e4a78
>
> Now that is a surface plate. And it is not shiny. Look at the plate.

Over 7 years to make a surface plate. There have been many companies 
that didn't last that long.


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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[John Kasunich]

On Fri, Mar 28, 2014, at 08:20 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 29 March 2014 00:01, Pete Matos  wrote:
> > I would not recommend putting anything on your plate that can build up at
> > all.

I agree, if the plate is going to be used for measuring.

The original poster wants to use it for photography as
well.  If he really needs a shine, he has two ways to
get it:

1) use very fine abrasive and polish the plate.  That
is guaranteed to remove at least a little material.  How
much I don't know.  Enough to affect accuracy?  Maybe.
I think it would be hard to polish a uniform amount off
everywhere, so flatness would suffer.  Not a good plan.

2) apply something that will fill the very fine scratches
that are the difference between matte and shiny.  Could
be a splash of water, but that will dry and go matte again
quickly.  Could be some kind of oil, would last longer
and still be easy to remove with the right cleaner.  Or 
could be automotive paste wax.  In any case, he will
need to buff it with a soft cloth so there is a negligibly
thin layer over the surface of the plate but it fills the 
scratches.

Do NOT do that to a precision plate in an ISO9000
shop.  But if he is determined to make his cheap
grade B plate shiny, then why not?

As I mentioned in my first post, I think that matte 
means freshly lapped and flat.  Shiny probably 
happens over time as the plate wears.  Get it 
re-lapped and it will be matte again - but more
accurate.

> Whilst I agree with you in principle, in practice I think it is
> probably a non-issue.
> 
> I worked for several years as a metallurgist, the difference between a
> gloss and matt finish was the 1000 grit paper (and the 1um dimond for
> the really shiny stuff)
> 
> Your reference gauges etc will not drop into the finish. Flat is flat
> in the macro sense. I think that the standard for iron plates is a few
> dozen points per square inch.
> 
> But, if you want shiny, then I really don't see car wax supporting the
> weight of your height gauge.
> 
> Matt will hold more blue. That could be a plus.
> 
> I want this one.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gorton-Master-Surface-Plate-Historical-Vintage-Original-8000lbs-MSP-1928-/161246759544?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258b0e4a78
> 
> Now that is a surface plate. And it is not shiny. Look at the plate

They don't make 'em like they used to.  Six years of
aging before they started to scrape it. I wonder how
long the scraping took?




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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[andy pugh]

On 29 March 2014 00:01, Pete Matos  wrote:
> I would not recommend putting anything on your plate that can build up at
> all.

Whilst I agree with you in principle, in practice I think it is
probably a non-issue.

I worked for several years as a metallurgist, the difference between a
gloss and matt finish was the 1000 grit paper (and the 1um dimond for
the really shiny stuff)

Your reference gauges etc will not drop into the finish. Flat is flat
in the macro sense. I think that the standard for iron plates is a few
dozen points per square inch.

But, if you want shiny, then I really don't see car wax supporting the
weight of your height gauge.

Matt will hold more blue. That could be a plus.

I want this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gorton-Master-Surface-Plate-Historical-Vintage-Original-8000lbs-MSP-1928-/161246759544?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258b0e4a78

Now that is a surface plate. And it is not shiny. Look at the plate.


-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Stuart Stevenson]

This is the best.
On Mar 28, 2014 7:03 PM, "Pete Matos"  wrote:

> I would not recommend putting anything on your plate that can build up at
> all. In fact other than cleaning with a damp rag I would not put anything
> on it whatsoever and try to keep it covered when not in use.
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 7:54 PM, John Kasunich  >wrote:
>
> > I'm sure it is possible to make granite shiny.
> > I'm not so sure that flat and shiny go together.
> >
> > I had my plate re-calibrated some years ago.  They
> > lapped it with diamond dust on top of a much larger
> > plate.  The result was a matte finish that was duller
> > than before, but also flatter than before.  I think
> > polishing it to a mirror finish might actually make
> > it less flat.
> >
> > I'd be tempted to try something like car wax.
> > The film should be very thin, so it should have
> > little effect on flatness (and you could probably
> > remove it with alcohol or something).
> >
> >
> > --
> >   John Kasunich
> >   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
> >
> >
> >
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Pete Matos]

I would not recommend putting anything on your plate that can build up at
all. In fact other than cleaning with a damp rag I would not put anything
on it whatsoever and try to keep it covered when not in use.

Pete



On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 7:54 PM, John Kasunich wrote:

> I'm sure it is possible to make granite shiny.
> I'm not so sure that flat and shiny go together.
>
> I had my plate re-calibrated some years ago.  They
> lapped it with diamond dust on top of a much larger
> plate.  The result was a matte finish that was duller
> than before, but also flatter than before.  I think
> polishing it to a mirror finish might actually make
> it less flat.
>
> I'd be tempted to try something like car wax.
> The film should be very thin, so it should have
> little effect on flatness (and you could probably
> remove it with alcohol or something).
>
>
> --
>   John Kasunich
>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[John Kasunich]

I'm sure it is possible to make granite shiny.
I'm not so sure that flat and shiny go together.

I had my plate re-calibrated some years ago.  They
lapped it with diamond dust on top of a much larger
plate.  The result was a matte finish that was duller
than before, but also flatter than before.  I think
polishing it to a mirror finish might actually make
it less flat.

I'd be tempted to try something like car wax.
The film should be very thin, so it should have
little effect on flatness (and you could probably
remove it with alcohol or something).


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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Pete Matos]

I bought my granite surface plate from a company in the Oak Ridge National
Laboratories facility and it is matte black.  It is used but in excellent
shape and I would not really be concerned with the sheen whatsoever.  The
place I am temporarily working has a largish Starrett CMM machine and the
entire base is made from a large pinkish  granite slab and it is also
matte. I can guarantee you it is extremely flat and smooth.  Sheen from
what I have seen has little to do with it. Peace

Pete



On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 28 March 2014 19:29:57 Jeshua Lacock did opine:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I just received a grade B granite surface that has a very dull/matte
> > finish. I was planning to use it for both reference and photography and
> > the image advertised showed it glossy (which is why I ordered it). I
> > contacted the vendor and they told me it is impossible to make granite
> > have a natural gloss to it. At the same time, my other granite surface
> > is shiny as glass.
>
> Me thinks you need to escalate that with your source, he is lying. Go look
> at any tombstone. I have  a 12 x 18 I carried out the door of Grizzly up in
> Muncy PA several years back that is just like a mirror, but fairly close to
> black.
>
> > Does anyone know what I could coat the surface with to make it look more
> > glossy while maintaining its accuracy? I sure would appreciate it!
> > Shipping costed me as much as the stone so sending it back isn't really
> > an option.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jeshua Lacock
> > Founder/Engineer
> > 3DTOPO Incorporated
> > 
> > Phone: 208.462.4171
> >
> >
> > 
> > -- ___
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>
>
> Cheers, Gene
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 28 March 2014 19:29:57 Jeshua Lacock did opine:

> Greetings,
> 
> I just received a grade B granite surface that has a very dull/matte
> finish. I was planning to use it for both reference and photography and
> the image advertised showed it glossy (which is why I ordered it). I
> contacted the vendor and they told me it is impossible to make granite
> have a natural gloss to it. At the same time, my other granite surface
> is shiny as glass.

Me thinks you need to escalate that with your source, he is lying. Go look 
at any tombstone. I have  a 12 x 18 I carried out the door of Grizzly up in 
Muncy PA several years back that is just like a mirror, but fairly close to 
black.

> Does anyone know what I could coat the surface with to make it look more
> glossy while maintaining its accuracy? I sure would appreciate it!
> Shipping costed me as much as the stone so sending it back isn't really
> an option.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeshua Lacock
> Founder/Engineer
> 3DTOPO Incorporated
> 
> Phone: 208.462.4171
> 
> 
> 
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Cheers, Gene
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 


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Re: [Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[jrmitchellj .]

My grade A granite block is glossy, and the grade B block  is matte.

You could put a temporary gloss on it with WD40.

--J. Ray Mitchell Jr.
jrmitche...@gmail.com
(818)324-7573


"Normal people ... believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers
believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet."

-- Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert comic strip




On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Jeshua Lacock  wrote:

>
> Greetings,
>
> I just received a grade B granite surface that has a very dull/matte
> finish. I was planning to use it for both reference and photography and the
> image advertised showed it glossy (which is why I ordered it). I contacted
> the vendor and they told me it is impossible to make granite have a natural
> gloss to it. At the same time, my other granite surface is shiny as glass.
>
> Does anyone know what I could coat the surface with to make it look more
> glossy while maintaining its accuracy? I sure would appreciate it! Shipping
> costed me as much as the stone so sending it back isn't really an option.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeshua Lacock
> Founder/Engineer
> 3DTOPO Incorporated
> 
> Phone: 208.462.4171
>
>
>
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[Emc-users] [Off] Granite Surface Protection

[Jeshua Lacock]

Greetings,

I just received a grade B granite surface that has a very dull/matte finish. I 
was planning to use it for both reference and photography and the image 
advertised showed it glossy (which is why I ordered it). I contacted the vendor 
and they told me it is impossible to make granite have a natural gloss to it. 
At the same time, my other granite surface is shiny as glass.

Does anyone know what I could coat the surface with to make it look more glossy 
while maintaining its accuracy? I sure would appreciate it! Shipping costed me 
as much as the stone so sending it back isn't really an option.


Thanks,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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