Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Kirk Wallace]

On Fri, 2009-10-09 at 10:03 +0200, Sven Wesley wrote:
> 2009/10/8 Kirk Wallace 
... snip
> > Does the CNC have the original drivers? If so, my setup works fairly
> > well and was dirt cheap. If you need to replace the old drivers, I think
> > you would be better off with a more modern micro-stepping controller, or
> > better yet, servos. The problem here is doing it with a tiny budget.
> >
> >
> Yes it has, that's why I thought this would work.
> 
> Regards,
> Sven

It's worth a try. If it's convenient, please post some pictures of the
drives and the rest of the machine.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Sven Wesley]

2009/10/8 Kirk Wallace 

> On Thu, 2009-10-08 at 10:30 +0200, Sven Wesley wrote:
> > Sounds like a very clean setup. Then it would be really easy to make
> > an amplifier board (with opto isolation) that just enhance the signal,
> > right? No need to by step/dir drivers then.
> > My friend bought an old school CNC with steppers, and I think this
> > setup would be really nice on his machine.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sven
>
> Does the CNC have the original drivers? If so, my setup works fairly
> well and was dirt cheap. If you need to replace the old drivers, I think
> you would be better off with a more modern micro-stepping controller, or
> better yet, servos. The problem here is doing it with a tiny budget.
>
>
Yes it has, that's why I thought this would work.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[cogoman]

I work with a Bandit Stepper system, and you should see the size of the 
heat sinks the drivers are attached to.  Probably good for a 200 watt 
class b audio amp.  They are constant current, linear drivers with 
decent voltage to drive the steppers quickly.

>
> True, though we desicussed this on IRC a few days ago, and cradek
> pointed out that you don't get the chopper-controlled current limits
> that you have with a commercial driver, so either you run at motor
> rated voltage and are limited to low speeds, or you have large banks
> of resistors and capacitors to create a constant-current source in a
> 1970s style.
>   

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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[cogoman]

>
> > The machine is also somewhat different then most. It is set up with a
> > Quadrature drive.
> > Unlike a Step and Drive pin. You have two pins the are turned on and off
> > in sequence.
>   

| Seems an odd way to do it, but I read that EMC supports that yesterday
| looking for something else. I recall wondering at the time "why?" and
| now I know.

| Stepgen mode 1, IIRC


Another reason to use quadrature over step and direction is speed. 
When switching directions a quadrature interface can reverse in one 
thread period, while the step/direction requires two thread periods 
for a single step pulse and one for the direction pin (unless you do 
fancy stuff with it).


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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Kirk Wallace]

On Thu, 2009-10-08 at 10:30 +0200, Sven Wesley wrote:
> 2009/10/7 Kirk Wallace 
> 
> > ...
> > The signals between the original Bandit controller and the stepper
... snip
> >
> Sounds like a very clean setup. Then it would be really easy to make
> an amplifier board (with opto isolation) that just enhance the signal,
> right? No need to by step/dir drivers then.
> My friend bought an old school CNC with steppers, and I think this
> setup would be really nice on his machine.
> 
> Regards,
> Sven

Does the CNC have the original drivers? If so, my setup works fairly
well and was dirt cheap. If you need to replace the old drivers, I think
you would be better off with a more modern micro-stepping controller, or
better yet, servos. The problem here is doing it with a tiny budget.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Sven Wesley]

2009/10/8 Gene Heskett 

> On Thursday 08 October 2009, Andy Pugh wrote:
> >2009/10/8 Sven Wesley :
> >> Sounds like a very clean setup. Then it would be really easy to make an
> >> amplifier board (with opto isolation) that just enhance the signal,
> >> right? No need to by step/dir drivers then.
> >
> >True, though we desicussed this on IRC a few days ago, and cradek
> >pointed out that you don't get the chopper-controlled current limits
> >that you have with a commercial driver, so either you run at motor
> >rated voltage and are limited to low speeds, or you have large banks
> >of resistors and capacitors to create a constant-current source in a
> >1970s style.
> >
> And that is so retro, not to mention the latter is hugely, grossly
> inefficient.  Most if not all of the commercial driver units from the
> xylotex
> on up, control the actual motor currants actively with a chopper regulator
> running at ultrasonic speeds.  That is very easily 10-50 times more
> efficient.  Because this can't be done cleanly with the L298 based drivers,
> even they fall by the side when step rates get above 100hz.  I cooked
> several
> of them trying.


Well, to my defense I'm really bad when it comes to steppers. I have only
been working with servo's. I'm not familiar with how the stepper drives work
but sure indeed it's a lot effecient with choppers than the old vintage
stuff.
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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 08 October 2009, Andy Pugh wrote:
>2009/10/8 Sven Wesley :
>> Sounds like a very clean setup. Then it would be really easy to make an
>> amplifier board (with opto isolation) that just enhance the signal,
>> right? No need to by step/dir drivers then.
>
>True, though we desicussed this on IRC a few days ago, and cradek
>pointed out that you don't get the chopper-controlled current limits
>that you have with a commercial driver, so either you run at motor
>rated voltage and are limited to low speeds, or you have large banks
>of resistors and capacitors to create a constant-current source in a
>1970s style.
>
And that is so retro, not to mention the latter is hugely, grossly 
inefficient.  Most if not all of the commercial driver units from the xylotex 
on up, control the actual motor currants actively with a chopper regulator 
running at ultrasonic speeds.  That is very easily 10-50 times more 
efficient.  Because this can't be done cleanly with the L298 based drivers, 
even they fall by the side when step rates get above 100hz.  I cooked several 
of them trying.

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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Andy Pugh]

2009/10/8 Sven Wesley :

> Sounds like a very clean setup. Then it would be really easy to make an
> amplifier board (with opto isolation) that just enhance the signal, right?
> No need to by step/dir drivers then.

True, though we desicussed this on IRC a few days ago, and cradek
pointed out that you don't get the chopper-controlled current limits
that you have with a commercial driver, so either you run at motor
rated voltage and are limited to low speeds, or you have large banks
of resistors and capacitors to create a constant-current source in a
1970s style.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Sven Wesley]

2009/10/7 Kirk Wallace 

> ...
> The signals between the original Bandit controller and the stepper
> driver boards were quadrature, so I just copied what the Bandit was
> doing, except the Bandit had a clever means to phase in single stepping
> at higher step rates (>50 ipm). This gave a maximum axis travel rate of
> 100" per minute. I want to go to servos and 70" per minute is fine for
> now, so I haven't tried to figure out how to get EMC2 to to phase in
> single stepping. So basically, there is just a driver chip and some CAT5
> between EMC2 and the original driver board and stepper motor.
>
> --
> Kirk Wallace
>
>
Sounds like a very clean setup. Then it would be really easy to make an
amplifier board (with opto isolation) that just enhance the signal, right?
No need to by step/dir drivers then.
My friend bought an old school CNC with steppers, and I think this setup
would be really nice on his machine.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Kirk Wallace]

On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 18:52 +0200, Sven Wesley wrote:
... snip
> It's an odd combination of this image:
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/mpg_proto-1a.jpg
> and
> the text "The PDF for the opto-interupters is here
> (H22L).",
> and I didn't really understand the combination. But opto couplers are nice,
> absolutely.
> If I understood your setup, You only have the EMC2 output signal,  opto
> couplers, amplifiers and then the motors? Sounds like a really clean setup
> to me. How fast can you go?
> 
> Regards,
> Sven

This picture:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/mpg_proto-1a.jpg 

shows my experiment at making a cheap jog wheel (or MPG). I failed to
notice that you mentioned opto-interrupters as opposed to opto-couplers,
which until now, I tended to use the terms to mean the same thing.
Sometimes it takes a 2x4 to the head to make me realize the obvious.

I can rapid up to 70 inches per minute, so... 

70"/min. 5 rev./1" 200 steps/rev. 1 min/60 sec. = 1166 steps/sec.

I got this maximum speed by running the axis until I started losing
steps, then backed off a bit. The parallel port signals should be able
to go much faster.

The signals between the original Bandit controller and the stepper
driver boards were quadrature, so I just copied what the Bandit was
doing, except the Bandit had a clever means to phase in single stepping
at higher step rates (>50 ipm). This gave a maximum axis travel rate of
100" per minute. I want to go to servos and 70" per minute is fine for
now, so I haven't tried to figure out how to get EMC2 to to phase in
single stepping. So basically, there is just a driver chip and some CAT5
between EMC2 and the original driver board and stepper motor.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Sven Wesley]

2009/10/7 Kirk Wallace 

> On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 09:43 +0200, Sven Wesley wrote:
> > 2009/10/7 Kirk Wallace 
>
> > If you ever find an odd function in EMC2, you can be sure Kirk uses it.
> :)
> > Kirk, what are the optointerrupters for?
> >
> > --S
>
> If you mean here:
>
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/Shizuoka_Step_Drv-1a.png
> (Short URL) http://preview.alturl.com/fmdb
>
> these are on the original stepper drivers. On the PC side, I have a
> 74ls244:
> http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls241.pdf
>
> that provides enough power to drive the LED in the opto-interrupter
> (/coupler).
>
>
It's an odd combination of this image:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/mpg_proto-1a.jpg
and
the text "The PDF for the opto-interupters is here
(H22L).",
and I didn't really understand the combination. But opto couplers are nice,
absolutely.
If I understood your setup, You only have the EMC2 output signal,  opto
couplers, amplifiers and then the motors? Sounds like a really clean setup
to me. How fast can you go?

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Kirk Wallace]

On Wed, 2009-10-07 at 09:43 +0200, Sven Wesley wrote:
> 2009/10/7 Kirk Wallace 
> > I use EMC2 quadrature output on my Shizuoka mill:
> > http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/
> >
> > which is used to drive the steppers in half-step mode. Basically, there
> > is just an amplifier between EMC2 and the stepper.
> >
> >
> If you ever find an odd function in EMC2, you can be sure Kirk uses it. :)
> Kirk, what are the optointerrupters for?
> 
> --S

If you mean here:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/Shizuoka_Step_Drv-1a.png 
(Short URL) http://preview.alturl.com/fmdb 

these are on the original stepper drivers. On the PC side, I have a
74ls244:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74ls241.pdf 

that provides enough power to drive the LED in the opto-interrupter
(/coupler). 

I like to have an opto-coupler somewhere in the connection between the
PC and the outside world to help prevent damaging the PC. Early on, I
blew out a motherboard parallel port, which bothers me to no end. Now, I
try to use cheap PCI parallel port cards and opto-couplers, so I don't
make the same mistake again. Plus, the couplers come in handy for
voltage conversion. My guess is, one volt of noise on a 12 volt signal
is less of a problem than on a three or five volt signal, the coupler
makes it easy to convert the machine signal voltage to what the parallel
port needs.
-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Andy Pugh]

2009/10/7 Kirk Wallace :

> I use EMC2 quadrature output on my Shizuoka mill:
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/
>
> which is used to drive the steppers in half-step mode.

I assume this is what they are doing in the MAXNC mills, they have
probably offloaded the step generation to the PC software.
On the hardware side is it as simple as running phase A positive
polarity when the A channel is high and negative polarity when low,
and the same for B? (Not that that matters for Wayne's purposes, of
course.)

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Sven Wesley]

2009/10/7 Kirk Wallace 

>
> I use EMC2 quadrature output on my Shizuoka mill:
> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/
>
> which is used to drive the steppers in half-step mode. Basically, there
> is just an amplifier between EMC2 and the stepper.
>
>
If you ever find an odd function in EMC2, you can be sure Kirk uses it. :)
Kirk, what are the optointerrupters for?

--S
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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 06 October 2009, Andy Pugh wrote:
>2009/10/6 Wayne Patterson :
>> The machine is also somewhat different then most. It is set up with a
>> Quadrature drive.
>> Unlike a Step and Drive pin. You have two pins the are turned on and off
>> in sequence.
>
>Seems an odd way to do it, but I read that EMC supports that yesterday
>looking for something else. I recall wondering at the time "why?" and
>now I know.
>
>Stepgen mode 1, IIRC
>
Did you ever use an Amiga, and its mouse, and note the mouse was absolutely 
and totally real time?  The quadrature signals from the wheels in it weren't 
encoded into a 1200 baud serial format for sending up the cable, all 4 
signals from both directions went up the cable into a special chip that moved 
the mouse by hardware.  And you couldn't move the mouse fast enough to over 
run that logic.  When LightWave was ported to windows, it was very 
frustrating to the artists who learned LightWave on the amiga, cuz you had to 
move the mouse slowly, and let it sit for a while to make sure your click was 
on the right pixel.

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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Kirk Wallace]

On Tue, 2009-10-06 at 23:40 +0100, Andy Pugh wrote:
> 2009/10/6 Wayne Patterson :
> 
> > The machine is also somewhat different then most. It is set up with a
> > Quadrature drive.
> > Unlike a Step and Drive pin. You have two pins the are turned on and off
> > in sequence.
> 
> Seems an odd way to do it, but I read that EMC supports that yesterday
> looking for something else. I recall wondering at the time "why?" and
> now I know.
> 
> Stepgen mode 1, IIRC

I use EMC2 quadrature output on my Shizuoka mill:
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/ 

which is used to drive the steppers in half-step mode. Basically, there
is just an amplifier between EMC2 and the stepper.

This gives me close to .0005" per step which is good for most projects,
but a micro stepping drive with step/direction would be better. But, if
I upgrade my mill, the plan is to just go with servos.

-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html
California, USA


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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Andy Pugh]

2009/10/6 Wayne Patterson :

> The machine is also somewhat different then most. It is set up with a
> Quadrature drive.
> Unlike a Step and Drive pin. You have two pins the are turned on and off
> in sequence.

Seems an odd way to do it, but I read that EMC supports that yesterday
looking for something else. I recall wondering at the time "why?" and
now I know.

Stepgen mode 1, IIRC

-- 
atp

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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Wayne Patterson]

I have both.
I prefer Linux so that means EMC2.
The machine is also somewhat different then most. It is set up with a 
Quadrature drive.
Unlike a Step and Drive pin. You have two pins the are turned on and off 
in sequence.

Andy Pugh wrote:
> 2009/10/6 Wayne Patterson :
>
>   
>> But I have never set up a machine before.
>> 
>
> I assume you are using EMC2 rather than the software supplied by the
> manufacturer?
>
>   

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Re: [Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Andy Pugh]

2009/10/6 Wayne Patterson :

> But I have never set up a machine before.

I assume you are using EMC2 rather than the software supplied by the
manufacturer?

-- 
atp

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[Emc-users] MAXNC Open Loop Mill

[Wayne Patterson]

Hello,
Is there anyone on the list using a MAXNC open loop CNC Milling machine?
I just got mine in a few days ago and I am excited about using it. I 
have some toys I want to build. =)
But I have never set up a machine before. So I was hoping that someone 
on the list has been through this before and could give me some pointers 
and warn me of some pitfalls.
Thanks for any and all help.
LennyWayne

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