Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 02 May 2015 12:11:29 Gene Heskett wrote:

One thing I noted today was that when I put it all back together with the 
new 1 hp motor, I neglected to run a solid ground from the lathes frame 
to someplace on the star ground in the breakout and motor driver box.  
So I hung a light weight clip lead to bridge it.

It still crashes, but not near as often.  So I may be onto something.  
Need a decent sized wire gauge, a 24 ga cliplead isn't it.

But before I continue, I have at least 2 cables to add about a foot too, 
one being the x motors power run, the other the X home switch.  While 
drilling out the inner of the taperlock, the last drill before I goto 
the boring bar was going to be a 5/8", about 15mm IOW.  But to chuck it 
in the drill chuck which is mounted in a boring bar QC holder, I had to 
run it clear to the tailstock end to get clearance enough to chuck the 
drill.  And ran it about 1/2" farther that the x home switch and x motor 
cables could reach.

So as it was Derby & dinner time, I quit, having mowed and weed eated the 
place while the taper hub code was running.  Tomorrow, thats first on 
the agenda.  I need to get some chain conduit and do it right.  Tisn't 
the first time I've hooked those 2 cables on something that stretched 
them a bit too far...

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 02 May 2015 19:58:00 Gene Heskett wrote:

Chris Radek wanted me to run memtest+ on that box overnight.

I just looked at /boot/grun/grub.cfg and the choice does exest in that 
file.

So, ok, I'll byte.  What is the magic keyboard incantation that will  
allow the grub boot menu to be seen?  It goes sailing right on by it.

Thats still a 10.94-4 LTS install, running LCNC 2.6.7.

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 03 May 2015 20:51:56 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 02 May 2015 19:58:00 Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> Chris Radek wanted me to run memtest+ on that box overnight.
>
> I just looked at /boot/grun/grub.cfg and the choice does exest in that
> file.

And I'm tired s/grun/grub
>
> So, ok, I'll byte.  What is the magic keyboard incantation that will
> allow the grub boot menu to be seen?  It goes sailing right on by it.
>
> Thats still a 10.94-4 LTS install, running LCNC 2.6.7.

Likewise 10.04-4 LTS.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Erik Christiansen]

On 03.05.15 20:51, Gene Heskett wrote:
> So, ok, I'll byte.  What is the magic keyboard incantation that will  
> allow the grub boot menu to be seen?  It goes sailing right on by it.

It's a while since I stuffed around with grub, but "info grub" says that
it will boot immediately without displaying the menu, if GRUB_TIMEOUT is
set to zero. Anything like that in your /etc/default/grub?

I also have a note from a prior encounter, saying: "SHIFT is a suitable
boot interrupt, causing the menu to be displayed, even if
GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=0" Info seems to concur that it can also be
responsible for booting like a sneak attack.

Both GRUB_TIMEOUT and GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT should be sought in the
editable config /etc/default/grub, not /boot/grub/grub.cfg, generated by
update-grub.

Erik

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but weren't sure.  But if you're searching for something you don't
already know, your fingers could walk themselves to death.  
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 04 May 2015 05:04:04 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 03.05.15 20:51, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > So, ok, I'll byte.  What is the magic keyboard incantation that will
> > allow the grub boot menu to be seen?  It goes sailing right on by
> > it.
>
> It's a while since I stuffed around with grub, but "info grub" says
> that it will boot immediately without displaying the menu, if
> GRUB_TIMEOUT is set to zero. Anything like that in your
> /etc/default/grub?
>
> I also have a note from a prior encounter, saying: "SHIFT is a
> suitable boot interrupt, causing the menu to be displayed, even if
> GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=0" Info seems to concur that it can also be
> responsible for booting like a sneak attack.
>
> Both GRUB_TIMEOUT and GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT should be sought in the
> editable config /etc/default/grub, not /boot/grub/grub.cfg, generated
> by update-grub.

There was GRUB_TIMEOUT = 0, GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10, and 
GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true in that file.

GRUB_TIMEOUT=10 now, and the last line I'll consult the grub man pages 
on.

Except exactly none of this stuff is mentioned in any man page for the 
various grub utilities.  The man pages are so incomplete that they don't 
even include "see also" lines referencing the other grub related bits & 
pieces.  Dammit, this isn't Microsoft, write the man pages already 
people.

I even went so far as to
cd /usr/share/man/man1
zcat * |grep HIDDEN
cd .../man8
zcat * |grep HIDDEN

And got exactly zero results.  How the hell are any of us supposed to 
figure this out?

Thanks Erik

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Mark Wendt]

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
>
> There was GRUB_TIMEOUT = 0, GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10, and
> GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true in that file.
>
> GRUB_TIMEOUT=10 now, and the last line I'll consult the grub man pages
> on.
>
> Except exactly none of this stuff is mentioned in any man page for the
> various grub utilities.  The man pages are so incomplete that they don't
> even include "see also" lines referencing the other grub related bits &
> pieces.  Dammit, this isn't Microsoft, write the man pages already
> people.
>
> I even went so far as to
> cd /usr/share/man/man1
> zcat * |grep HIDDEN
> cd .../man8
> zcat * |grep HIDDEN
>
> And got exactly zero results.  How the hell are any of us supposed to
> figure this out?
>
> Thanks Erik
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>


Gene,

At the top of the /etc/default/grub file, in the comments area, I found
this:

info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'

Gave me a pretty thorough description of the parameters in the file.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 04 May 2015 08:17:52 Mark Wendt wrote:
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > There was GRUB_TIMEOUT = 0, GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10, and
> > GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true in that file.
> >
> > GRUB_TIMEOUT=10 now, and the last line I'll consult the grub man
> > pages on.
> >
> > Except exactly none of this stuff is mentioned in any man page for
> > the various grub utilities.  The man pages are so incomplete that
> > they don't even include "see also" lines referencing the other grub
> > related bits & pieces.  Dammit, this isn't Microsoft, write the man
> > pages already people.
> >
> > I even went so far as to
> > cd /usr/share/man/man1
> > zcat * |grep HIDDEN
> > cd .../man8
> > zcat * |grep HIDDEN
> >
> > And got exactly zero results.  How the hell are any of us supposed
> > to figure this out?
> >
> > Thanks Erik
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> Gene,
>
> At the top of the /etc/default/grub file, in the comments area, I
> found this:
>
> info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
>
> Gave me a pretty thorough description of the parameters in the file.
>
> Mark

Not for a 10.04-4 LTS install:

gene@lathe:~$ info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
info: Cannot find node `Simple configuration'.
gene@lathe:~$ sudo info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
[sudo] password for gene: 
info: Cannot find node `Simple configuration'.

It does work on this wheezy install though.

Based on the wheezy versions output, I commented the 
GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true out and reran update-grub.

Now its time to go see if I can get it to run memtest.

Thanks Mark.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Mark Wendt]

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
> > Gene,
> >
> > At the top of the /etc/default/grub file, in the comments area, I
> > found this:
> >
> > info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
> >
> > Gave me a pretty thorough description of the parameters in the file.
> >
> > Mark
>
> Not for a 10.04-4 LTS install:
>
> gene@lathe:~$ info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
> info: Cannot find node `Simple configuration'.
> gene@lathe:~$ sudo info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
> [sudo] password for gene:
> info: Cannot find node `Simple configuration'.
>
> It does work on this wheezy install though.
>
> Based on the wheezy versions output, I commented the
> GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true out and reran update-grub.
>
> Now its time to go see if I can get it to run memtest.
>
> Thanks Mark.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>


Ah.  Sorry about that.  My machine here at work is running 14.04 LTS.

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 04 May 2015 08:57:39 Mark Wendt wrote:
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > > Gene,
> > >
> > > At the top of the /etc/default/grub file, in the comments area, I
> > > found this:
> > >
> > > info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
> > >
> > > Gave me a pretty thorough description of the parameters in the
> > > file.
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > Not for a 10.04-4 LTS install:
> >
> > gene@lathe:~$ info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
> > info: Cannot find node `Simple configuration'.
> > gene@lathe:~$ sudo info -f grub -n 'Simple configuration'
> > [sudo] password for gene:
> > info: Cannot find node `Simple configuration'.
> >
> > It does work on this wheezy install though.
> >
> > Based on the wheezy versions output, I commented the
> > GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true out and reran update-grub.
> >
> > Now its time to go see if I can get it to run memtest.
> >
> > Thanks Mark.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> Ah.  Sorry about that.  My machine here at work is running 14.04 LTS.
>
> Mark

I did make those changes to /etc/default/grub:
GRUB_DEFAULT=0
GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10
#GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true
GRUB_TIMEOUT=10
GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=`lsb_release -i -s 2> /dev/null || echo Debian`
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT=""
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=""

# Uncomment to disable graphical terminal (grub-pc only)
#GRUB_TERMINAL=console

# The resolution used on graphical terminal
# note that you can use only modes which your graphic card supports via 
VBE
# you can see them in real GRUB with the command `vbeinfo'
#GRUB_GFXMODE=640x480

# Uncomment if you don't want GRUB to pass "root=UUID=xxx" parameter to 
Linux
#GRUB_DISABLE_LINUX_UUID=true

# Uncomment to disable generation of recovery mode menu entries
#GRUB_DISABLE_LINUX_RECOVERY="true"

# Uncomment to get a beep at grub start
#GRUB_INIT_TUNE="480 440 1"

and sudo update-grub.

I have now tried all the tricks to get the grub menu that have been 
mentioned here, including holding down the right shift key while booting 
from the original install cd for the ubu 10.04-4 LTS version.

My screen steadfastly remains blank during what I think is the 10 second 
timeout, followed by the kernel decompression and first few lines of its 
booting messages. I have a copy of lubuntu 14.04-2 LTS on a dvd in front 
of me that I will take out and try.  BRB.  And it boots straight into 
the install screen, asking for the language.

Now, while its asking for the language, there is a countdown clock of 30 
seconds running on the left edge of the screen and a list of keys to 
press to get the various options along the botton.  Touching any of 
those keys kills the countdown and freezes the installer, apparently 
forever.

If I don't already have a memtest on a cd, I'll make one and try that, 
but this is frustrating to say the least.

Didn't find a memtest disk, so I took every install cd/dvd I had out, a 
stack about 1/2" thick, and the 3rd one I tried, a recent manjaro 64 bit 
installer, finally have me a grub selection screen, from which I was 
able to select and run memtest from, so its running now.  I'll ignore 
that recalcitrant SOB till about noon now.

If I knew where I could buy another box, or a new mb for that one, that 
would run LCNC like these Intel D525MW boards do, I'd drop the card in a 
heartbeat or less.  I checked the wiki for some recent advice yesterday, 
and only that board tests as well for latency.  OTOH, I got the 
impression that page had not had any TLC for a couple years.

This is exactly the same stuff you find on the ground behind the male of 
the bovine specie. :(

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

--
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Mark Wendt]

On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

>
>
> I did make those changes to /etc/default/grub:
> GRUB_DEFAULT=0
> GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10
> #GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true
> GRUB_TIMEOUT=10
> GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=`lsb_release -i -s 2> /dev/null || echo Debian`
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT=""
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=""
>
> # Uncomment to disable graphical terminal (grub-pc only)
> #GRUB_TERMINAL=console
>
> # The resolution used on graphical terminal
> # note that you can use only modes which your graphic card supports via
> VBE
> # you can see them in real GRUB with the command `vbeinfo'
> #GRUB_GFXMODE=640x480
>
> # Uncomment if you don't want GRUB to pass "root=UUID=xxx" parameter to
> Linux
> #GRUB_DISABLE_LINUX_UUID=true
>
> # Uncomment to disable generation of recovery mode menu entries
> #GRUB_DISABLE_LINUX_RECOVERY="true"
>
> # Uncomment to get a beep at grub start
> #GRUB_INIT_TUNE="480 440 1"
>
> and sudo update-grub.
>
> I have now tried all the tricks to get the grub menu that have been
> mentioned here, including holding down the right shift key while booting
> from the original install cd for the ubu 10.04-4 LTS version.
>
> My screen steadfastly remains blank during what I think is the 10 second
> timeout, followed by the kernel decompression and first few lines of its
> booting messages. I have a copy of lubuntu 14.04-2 LTS on a dvd in front
> of me that I will take out and try.  BRB.  And it boots straight into
> the install screen, asking for the language.
>
> Now, while its asking for the language, there is a countdown clock of 30
> seconds running on the left edge of the screen and a list of keys to
> press to get the various options along the botton.  Touching any of
> those keys kills the countdown and freezes the installer, apparently
> forever.
>
> If I don't already have a memtest on a cd, I'll make one and try that,
> but this is frustrating to say the least.
>
> Didn't find a memtest disk, so I took every install cd/dvd I had out, a
> stack about 1/2" thick, and the 3rd one I tried, a recent manjaro 64 bit
> installer, finally have me a grub selection screen, from which I was
> able to select and run memtest from, so its running now.  I'll ignore
> that recalcitrant SOB till about noon now.
>
> If I knew where I could buy another box, or a new mb for that one, that
> would run LCNC like these Intel D525MW boards do, I'd drop the card in a
> heartbeat or less.  I checked the wiki for some recent advice yesterday,
> and only that board tests as well for latency.  OTOH, I got the
> impression that page had not had any TLC for a couple years.
>
> This is exactly the same stuff you find on the ground behind the male of
> the bovine specie. :(
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>


Maybe hitting the escape key during that "blank" 10 second time period?

Mark
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[andy pugh]

On 4 May 2015 at 15:06, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> I have now tried all the tricks to get the grub menu that have been
> mentioned here, including holding down the right shift key while booting
> from the original install cd for the ubu 10.04-4 LTS version.

I just restarted my Live-CD installed 10.04 VM with the _left_ shift
key held down and it went straight into the Grub menu.

It is possible that your keyboard is USB and not recognised early
enough in the boot sequence, but it is probably worth trying again.
This was a normal restart from the GUI, booting from the normal
installed OS, not messing about with Grub configuration, CD-booting or
anything along those lines.

-- 
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If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 04 May 2015 10:22:15 Mark Wendt wrote:
> On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > I did make those changes to /etc/default/grub:
> > GRUB_DEFAULT=0
> > GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10
> > #GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true
> > GRUB_TIMEOUT=10
> > GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=`lsb_release -i -s 2> /dev/null || echo Debian`
> > GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT=""
> > GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=""
> >
> > # Uncomment to disable graphical terminal (grub-pc only)
> > #GRUB_TERMINAL=console
> >
> > # The resolution used on graphical terminal
> > # note that you can use only modes which your graphic card supports
> > via VBE
> > # you can see them in real GRUB with the command `vbeinfo'
> > #GRUB_GFXMODE=640x480
> >
> > # Uncomment if you don't want GRUB to pass "root=UUID=xxx" parameter
> > to Linux
> > #GRUB_DISABLE_LINUX_UUID=true
> >
> > # Uncomment to disable generation of recovery mode menu entries
> > #GRUB_DISABLE_LINUX_RECOVERY="true"
> >
> > # Uncomment to get a beep at grub start
> > #GRUB_INIT_TUNE="480 440 1"
> >
> > and sudo update-grub.
> >
> > I have now tried all the tricks to get the grub menu that have been
> > mentioned here, including holding down the right shift key while
> > booting from the original install cd for the ubu 10.04-4 LTS
> > version.
> >
> > My screen steadfastly remains blank during what I think is the 10
> > second timeout, followed by the kernel decompression and first few
> > lines of its booting messages. I have a copy of lubuntu 14.04-2 LTS
> > on a dvd in front of me that I will take out and try.  BRB.  And it
> > boots straight into the install screen, asking for the language.
> >
> > Now, while its asking for the language, there is a countdown clock
> > of 30 seconds running on the left edge of the screen and a list of
> > keys to press to get the various options along the botton.  Touching
> > any of those keys kills the countdown and freezes the installer,
> > apparently forever.
> >
> > If I don't already have a memtest on a cd, I'll make one and try
> > that, but this is frustrating to say the least.
> >
> > Didn't find a memtest disk, so I took every install cd/dvd I had
> > out, a stack about 1/2" thick, and the 3rd one I tried, a recent
> > manjaro 64 bit installer, finally have me a grub selection screen,
> > from which I was able to select and run memtest from, so its running
> > now.  I'll ignore that recalcitrant SOB till about noon now.
> >
> > If I knew where I could buy another box, or a new mb for that one,
> > that would run LCNC like these Intel D525MW boards do, I'd drop the
> > card in a heartbeat or less.  I checked the wiki for some recent
> > advice yesterday, and only that board tests as well for latency. 
> > OTOH, I got the impression that page had not had any TLC for a
> > couple years.
> >
> > This is exactly the same stuff you find on the ground behind the
> > male of the bovine specie. :(
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> Maybe hitting the escape key during that "blank" 10 second time
> period?
>
> Mark

I won't say the keycap is showing signs of wear. It does do something, 
but giving me a grub boot select screen isn't done. I do see a blinking 
underline curser at top left though. Its like the video driver is not 
loaded at that point. ???  Humm, that is an intel 915 gfx setup.

Does anyone else have an insmod line to load its driver?

The manjaro cd that worked, has a fawncy gfx screen, not text.

Thanks Mark.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 04 May 2015 10:24:28 andy pugh wrote:
> On 4 May 2015 at 15:06, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > I have now tried all the tricks to get the grub menu that have been
> > mentioned here, including holding down the right shift key while
> > booting from the original install cd for the ubu 10.04-4 LTS
> > version.
>
> I just restarted my Live-CD installed 10.04 VM with the _left_ shift
> key held down and it went straight into the Grub menu.
>
> It is possible that your keyboard is USB and not recognised early
> enough in the boot sequence, but it is probably worth trying again.
> This was a normal restart from the GUI, booting from the normal
> installed OS, not messing about with Grub configuration, CD-booting or
> anything along those lines.

Left shift? Untested but will be. With only a gig of dram, memtest+ v5.01 
is on about the 7th full pass by now.  No errors when the 6th pass was 
in progress.  But I'll let it run another couple hours just for S&G.

I'd like to make swarf sometime.  Without the C1G lighting up like the 
4th of July when the 5i25's unpetted watchdog bites.

Thanks Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Kyle Kerr]

A bit off topic, but, I noticed you, Gene, retyped the same command after
sudo. I'm unsure when it was added, but, you might try sudo !! to rerun a
command as root that you previously tried running as a normal user.
On May 4, 2015 11:04 AM, "Gene Heskett"  wrote:

> On Monday 04 May 2015 10:24:28 andy pugh wrote:
> > On 4 May 2015 at 15:06, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > > I have now tried all the tricks to get the grub menu that have been
> > > mentioned here, including holding down the right shift key while
> > > booting from the original install cd for the ubu 10.04-4 LTS
> > > version.
> >
> > I just restarted my Live-CD installed 10.04 VM with the _left_ shift
> > key held down and it went straight into the Grub menu.
> >
> > It is possible that your keyboard is USB and not recognised early
> > enough in the boot sequence, but it is probably worth trying again.
> > This was a normal restart from the GUI, booting from the normal
> > installed OS, not messing about with Grub configuration, CD-booting or
> > anything along those lines.
>
> Left shift? Untested but will be. With only a gig of dram, memtest+ v5.01
> is on about the 7th full pass by now.  No errors when the 6th pass was
> in progress.  But I'll let it run another couple hours just for S&G.
>
> I'd like to make swarf sometime.  Without the C1G lighting up like the
> 4th of July when the 5i25's unpetted watchdog bites.
>
> Thanks Andy.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Erik Christiansen]

On 04.05.15 10:06, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I did make those changes to /etc/default/grub:
> GRUB_DEFAULT=0
> GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10
> #GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true
> GRUB_TIMEOUT=10
> GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=`lsb_release -i -s 2> /dev/null || echo Debian`
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT=""
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=""

Gene,

Seeing that it seems to still be giving you the irrits, here's my
corresponding /etc/default/grub lines:

GRUB_DEFAULT=0
GRUB_TIMEOUT=5
GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=`lsb_release -i -s 2> /dev/null || echo Debian`
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet"
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=""

Perhaps then, if you just comment out the GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT, it'll
come good enough to use for now?

> I have now tried all the tricks to get the grub menu that have been 
> mentioned here, including holding down the right shift key while booting 
> from the original install cd for the ubu 10.04-4 LTS version.

The above lines have the menu come up unbidden on each boot. That's why
I only allow a 5 second timeout. (And can't say for sure which shift key
ought to undo the HIDDEN guff, or whether it will.)

> My screen steadfastly remains blank during what I think is the 10 second 
> timeout, followed by the kernel decompression and first few lines of its 
> booting messages. I have a copy of lubuntu 14.04-2 LTS on a dvd in front 
> of me that I will take out and try.  BRB.  And it boots straight into 
> the install screen, asking for the language.

The suggested step backwards may confound the gremlins, i.e. no HIDDEN
guff, just a simple "gimme da menu & shuddup" config.

Apropos the useless manpages; there are a couple of those about,
deliberately left uninformative by one or two politicised developer
groups who wish to see "info" replace "man". When it's clear I've found
one of them, I always arc up info as a second stab. If you don't have a
grub "info" page, then an apt-get of the grub-doc package will probably
yield paydirt.

Incidentally, there's no memtest86 on this recently installed debian
7.8.0. I'd have to do an apt-get before adding it to the boot options.
Hopefully you won't have that bother as well.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 May 2015 05:43:22 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 04.05.15 10:06, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I did make those changes to /etc/default/grub:
> > GRUB_DEFAULT=0
> > GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT=10
> > #GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT_QUIET=true
> > GRUB_TIMEOUT=10
> > GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=`lsb_release -i -s 2> /dev/null || echo Debian`
> > GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT=""
> > GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=""
>
> Gene,
>
> Seeing that it seems to still be giving you the irrits, here's my
> corresponding /etc/default/grub lines:
>
> GRUB_DEFAULT=0
> GRUB_TIMEOUT=5
> GRUB_DISTRIBUTOR=`lsb_release -i -s 2> /dev/null || echo Debian`
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet"
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX=""
>
> Perhaps then, if you just comment out the GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT, it'll
> come good enough to use for now?
>
> > I have now tried all the tricks to get the grub menu that have been
> > mentioned here, including holding down the right shift key while
> > booting from the original install cd for the ubu 10.04-4 LTS
> > version.
>
> The above lines have the menu come up unbidden on each boot. That's
> why I only allow a 5 second timeout. (And can't say for sure which
> shift key ought to undo the HIDDEN guff, or whether it will.)
>
> > My screen steadfastly remains blank during what I think is the 10
> > second timeout, followed by the kernel decompression and first few
> > lines of its booting messages. I have a copy of lubuntu 14.04-2 LTS
> > on a dvd in front of me that I will take out and try.  BRB.  And it
> > boots straight into the install screen, asking for the language.
>
> The suggested step backwards may confound the gremlins, i.e. no HIDDEN
> guff, just a simple "gimme da menu & shuddup" config.
>
> Apropos the useless manpages; there are a couple of those about,
> deliberately left uninformative by one or two politicised developer
> groups who wish to see "info" replace "man". When it's clear I've
> found one of them, I always arc up info as a second stab. If you don't
> have a grub "info" page, then an apt-get of the grub-doc package will
> probably yield paydirt.
>
> Incidentally, there's no memtest86 on this recently installed debian
> 7.8.0. I'd have to do an apt-get before adding it to the boot options.
> Hopefully you won't have that bother as well.
>
> Erik

I'll do that before I go play with it again, to both machines.  But I am 
finding it interesting that it can run for days at a time, as long as I 
am not running linuxcnc, but my uptime is usually under half an hour 
with it running.  And it doesn't seem to care what particular gcode file 
its running.

I do not know if the isolcpus=1 command was in the 
old /boot/grub/grub.cfg, but after running update-grub, its gone!

Has some grub related update overridden that option, or is it now 
compiled into 2.6.32-122-rtai kernel?  That may well explain a lot!

I do not have backups of the /boot tree on either machine. My amanda 
recipes only include /etc, /home, lib/firmware, /usr/lib/amanda, 
and /usr/local.

Can someone still on the 10.04-4 LTS release check that for me?  Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 May 2015 09:52:48 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 May 2015 05:43:22 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > Apropos the useless manpages; there are a couple of those about,
> > deliberately left uninformative by one or two politicised developer
> > groups who wish to see "info" replace "man".

Sounds like we need to re-educate them.  I have some white ash that would 
work just dandy for that.  But the Emerald ash borer is killing them, so 
I'd probably use a less valuable wood.

> > When it's clear I've 
> > found one of them, I always arc up info as a second stab. If you
> > don't have a grub "info" page, then an apt-get of the grub-doc
> > package will probably yield paydirt.

In re the info command:  A useless POC.  pinfo blows it clear into the 
next drainage, where I have been wishing for a gully washer to carry it 
completely away.  The commands to make info work intuitively were left 
completely out.  Pinfo Just Works(TM) exactly as one would expect.
> >
> > Incidentally, there's no memtest86 on this recently installed debian
> > 7.8.0. I'd have to do an apt-get before adding it to the boot
> > options. Hopefully you won't have that bother as well.

Its present and acccounted for on this wheezy install.  Nothing special 
was done, but the install disk was from debian, not our hybride-iso.

Thanks Erik.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 May 2015 10:17:58 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 May 2015 09:52:48 Gene Heskett wrote:

On further checking, and I've no clue why its working on the milling 
machines install, and not on the lathe machines install.  Same install 
cd in both cases.

The file 07_rtai is present in /etc/grub.d on both machines,

But running sudo update-grub does NOT insert the isocpus=1 option on the 
kernel (vmlinuz) command line on the lathe, while it works normally on 
the mill, both installed from the same cd, and both regularly updated by 
update-manager.

So I have added it manually to /boot/grub/grub.cfg on the normal, 
default=0 entry.

And I am going to go out and play with it to see if, after a reboot with 
that option set, the crash-o-matic option is still in effect.

Troubleshooting tips gleefully checked out.

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Erik Christiansen]

On 06.05.15 09:52, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I do not know if the isolcpus=1 command was in the 
> old /boot/grub/grub.cfg, but after running update-grub, its gone!

Gene,

Oops - I'd forgotten our "Beating Grub2 into submission" discussion
in 2011, and been thinking in terms of the general case, where
adding/editing:

GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX="isolcpus=1"

in /etc/default/grub should do the trick, or you could use
GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT there instead, then the second (recovery)
menu item normally generated will not have isolcpus=1. Keeping a
recovery option as simple as possible seems a cautious principle to me.

BUT on finding:

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?The_Isolcpus_Boot_Parameter_And_GRUB2

I'm reminded that some LinuxCNC users have not wanted isolcpus=1 added
to the kernel line for all menu options, and so the link describes
Kent's custom /etc/grub.d/07_rtai which only adds it where needed.
Do you have it?

> Has some grub related update overridden that option, or is it now 
> compiled into 2.6.32-122-rtai kernel?  That may well explain a lot!

The discussion has also slipped your memory, it seems. Google too. It
doesn't want to give hits in list archives any more, apparently, because
neither the above subject line, nor "Message-ID: <4d9e8496.9070...@erols.com>"
(Kent's 07_rtai fix anouncement) are worth its notice. And although the
search at www.linuxcnc.org has been said to search the mailing list, it
doesn't work for me either, so I can't furnish a link. :(

All that said, for a quick one-off fix, you could just hand edit
/boot/grub/grub.cfg to add the isolcpus=1 to the
"linux /boot/vmlinuz .." line for rtai.

Erik

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Erik Christiansen]

On 06.05.15 11:00, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Troubleshooting tips gleefully checked out.

I think you're well ahead of the pack now.
(You're leaving me behind on the straight.)

Good luck with the possible fix.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 May 2015 11:00:27 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 May 2015 10:17:58 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 06 May 2015 09:52:48 Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> On further checking, and I've no clue why its working on the milling
> machines install, and not on the lathe machines install.  Same install
> cd in both cases.
>
> The file 07_rtai is present in /etc/grub.d on both machines,
>
> But running sudo update-grub does NOT insert the isocpus=1 option on
> the kernel (vmlinuz) command line on the lathe, while it works
> normally on the mill, both installed from the same cd, and both
> regularly updated by update-manager.
>
> So I have added it manually to /boot/grub/grub.cfg on the normal,
> default=0 entry.

I did that only to the normal boot, not to the recovery entry.  And now 
the drive refuses to e2fsck at either the default superblock or the 
suggested -b 8193 option e2fsck suggests.

So, on a fairly new toshiba drive, what would be a good superblock 
address?

Better yet, pull the latest binary.hybrid.iso, and I just went to the 
toshiba-america site only to be told that the drive model I entered was 
not a drive ever sold to the US or latin america market.

IOW, no firmware updates or warranty. So I have $140 worth of junk, its a 
2Tb drive.  Eardrum pressure is rising, its 2 months old, says it was 
made in 2013.

So what SSD are you folks using and what filesystem so it doesn't 
self-destruct with the ext housekeeping?

In the meantime I'm going to see if gparted can do anything with this 
piece of shit.

> And I am going to go out and play with it to see if, after a reboot
> with that option set, the crash-o-matic option is still in effect.
>
> Troubleshooting tips gleefully checked out.
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[andy pugh]

On 6 May 2015 at 16:34, Erik Christiansen  wrote:
>
> The discussion has also slipped your memory, it seems. Google too. It
> doesn't want to give hits in list archives any more, apparently, because
> neither the above subject line, nor "Message-ID: <4d9e8496.9070...@erols.com>"
> (Kent's 07_rtai fix anouncement) are worth its notice.


http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/26752/focus=26999

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 May 2015 11:34:02 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 06.05.15 09:52, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I do not know if the isolcpus=1 command was in the
> > old /boot/grub/grub.cfg, but after running update-grub, its gone!
>
> Gene,
>
> Oops - I'd forgotten our "Beating Grub2 into submission" discussion
> in 2011, and been thinking in terms of the general case, where
> adding/editing:
>
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX="isolcpus=1"
>
> in /etc/default/grub should do the trick, or you could use
> GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT there instead, then the second (recovery)
> menu item normally generated will not have isolcpus=1. Keeping a
> recovery option as simple as possible seems a cautious principle to
> me.
>
> BUT on finding:
>
> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?The_Isolcpus_Boot_Parameter_A
>nd_GRUB2
>
> I'm reminded that some LinuxCNC users have not wanted isolcpus=1 added
> to the kernel line for all menu options, and so the link describes
> Kent's custom /etc/grub.d/07_rtai which only adds it where needed.
> Do you have it?

Yes, on both machines.  Didn't work on the lathes machine.  Added it by 
hand to grub.cfg.  Drive turned into instantly uncheckable.  No 
superblock found.  So the drive is now in my QC cage as /dev/sdb1, 
gparted says the partition table is valid, so I just did a mke4fs on 
both patitions.

The fresh copy of the binary.hybrid.iso I just downloaded, has now been 
burned to a dvd.  How can I tell the installer to just use what it 
finds?

But my remark about the drive stands, this SOB was never sold in the US 
or latin America, so Toshiba will not supply any firmware updates the 
drive might be badly in need of.

Howinhell can we protect ourselves from unscrupulous vendors who by 
drives in 10,000 lots from some rickshaw driver in Kowloon?

Methnks a trip to Staples might be in order, but they are as bad as 
newegg in this regard. If the binary.hybrid install won't fly, thats 
next, looking for an SSD.

Back later, headed for shop with drive & dvd in hand.

> > Has some grub related update overridden that option, or is it now
> > compiled into 2.6.32-122-rtai kernel?  That may well explain a lot!
>
> The discussion has also slipped your memory, it seems. Google too. It
> doesn't want to give hits in list archives any more, apparently,
> because neither the above subject line, nor "Message-ID:
> <4d9e8496.9070...@erols.com>" (Kent's 07_rtai fix anouncement) are
> worth its notice. And although the search at www.linuxcnc.org has been
> said to search the mailing list, it doesn't work for me either, so I
> can't furnish a link. :(
>
> All that said, for a quick one-off fix, you could just hand edit
> /boot/grub/grub.cfg to add the isolcpus=1 to the
> "linux /boot/vmlinuz .." line for rtai.
>
> Erik

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Erik Christiansen]

On 06.05.15 12:01, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > So I have added it manually to /boot/grub/grub.cfg on the normal,
> > default=0 entry.
> 
> I did that only to the normal boot, not to the recovery entry.  And now 
> the drive refuses to e2fsck at either the default superblock or the 
> suggested -b 8193 option e2fsck suggests.

OK, assuming you're e2fsck-ing because the default boot now doesn't
work, have you tried booting the recovery entry, and undoing the
/boot/grub/grub.cfg hand-edit, to see if the drive then behaves?

> So, on a fairly new toshiba drive, what would be a good superblock 
> address?

NDI, but trying on my little Western Digital 320 GB drive, I get:

# dumpe2fs /dev/disk/by-uuid/18cb718f-4e16-4e63-a0cb-eb10a1dc3607 | grep -i 
superblock
dumpe2fs 1.42.5 (29-Jul-2012)
  Primary superblock at 1, Group descriptors at 2-3
  Backup superblock at 8193, Group descriptors at 8194-8195
  Backup superblock at 24577, Group descriptors at 24578-24579
  Backup superblock at 40961, Group descriptors at 40962-40963
  Backup superblock at 57345, Group descriptors at 57346-57347
  Backup superblock at 73729, Group descriptors at 73730-73731
  Backup superblock at 204801, Group descriptors at 204802-204803
  Backup superblock at 221185, Group descriptors at 221186-221187

That's nothing like the old days, when I used to see numbers like:
32768, 98304, 163840, 229376, 294912

You seem to have a fair crop of gremlins, Gene. Have they all been holed
up over winter, and now smelled spring?

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Dave Cole]

Hand editing grub is supposed to be a no-no.   I have no idea why.
I used a graphical grub editor the last time I got in trouble with grub 
and that worked fine - no drama.

Dave

On 5/6/2015 1:21 PM, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 06.05.15 12:01, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> So I have added it manually to /boot/grub/grub.cfg on the normal,
>>> default=0 entry.
>> I did that only to the normal boot, not to the recovery entry.  And now
>> the drive refuses to e2fsck at either the default superblock or the
>> suggested -b 8193 option e2fsck suggests.
> OK, assuming you're e2fsck-ing because the default boot now doesn't
> work, have you tried booting the recovery entry, and undoing the
> /boot/grub/grub.cfg hand-edit, to see if the drive then behaves?
>
>> So, on a fairly new toshiba drive, what would be a good superblock
>> address?
> NDI, but trying on my little Western Digital 320 GB drive, I get:
>
> # dumpe2fs /dev/disk/by-uuid/18cb718f-4e16-4e63-a0cb-eb10a1dc3607 | grep -i 
> superblock
> dumpe2fs 1.42.5 (29-Jul-2012)
>Primary superblock at 1, Group descriptors at 2-3
>Backup superblock at 8193, Group descriptors at 8194-8195
>Backup superblock at 24577, Group descriptors at 24578-24579
>Backup superblock at 40961, Group descriptors at 40962-40963
>Backup superblock at 57345, Group descriptors at 57346-57347
>Backup superblock at 73729, Group descriptors at 73730-73731
>Backup superblock at 204801, Group descriptors at 204802-204803
>Backup superblock at 221185, Group descriptors at 221186-221187
>
> That's nothing like the old days, when I used to see numbers like:
> 32768, 98304, 163840, 229376, 294912
>
> You seem to have a fair crop of gremlins, Gene. Have they all been holed
> up over winter, and now smelled spring?
>
> Erik
>
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 May 2015 13:21:35 Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 06.05.15 12:01, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > So I have added it manually to /boot/grub/grub.cfg on the normal,
> > > default=0 entry.
> >
> > I did that only to the normal boot, not to the recovery entry.  And
> > now the drive refuses to e2fsck at either the default superblock or
> > the suggested -b 8193 option e2fsck suggests.
>
> OK, assuming you're e2fsck-ing because the default boot now doesn't
> work, have you tried booting the recovery entry, and undoing the
> /boot/grub/grub.cfg hand-edit, to see if the drive then behaves?

Drive format is toasted, that didn't work either.

> > So, on a fairly new toshiba drive, what would be a good superblock
> > address?
>
> NDI, but trying on my little Western Digital 320 GB drive, I get:
>
> # dumpe2fs /dev/disk/by-uuid/18cb718f-4e16-4e63-a0cb-eb10a1dc3607 |
> grep -i superblock dumpe2fs 1.42.5 (29-Jul-2012)
>   Primary superblock at 1, Group descriptors at 2-3
>   Backup superblock at 8193, Group descriptors at 8194-8195
>   Backup superblock at 24577, Group descriptors at 24578-24579
>   Backup superblock at 40961, Group descriptors at 40962-40963
>   Backup superblock at 57345, Group descriptors at 57346-57347
>   Backup superblock at 73729, Group descriptors at 73730-73731
>   Backup superblock at 204801, Group descriptors at 204802-204803
>   Backup superblock at 221185, Group descriptors at 221186-221187
>
> That's nothing like the old days, when I used to see numbers like:
> 32768, 98304, 163840, 229376, 294912
>
> You seem to have a fair crop of gremlins, Gene. Have they all been
> holed up over winter, and now smelled spring?
>
> Erik

Either that, or Murphy has moved back north for the summer, somebody is 
sure drinking all my near beer. ;-)  Miller64 is about 2.4% if I read 
the label right.  It doesn't blow my sugar up at least.  But I hurt so 
bad last night it took 3, over about 8 hours before I finally got some 
sleep.

Getting old is NOT for wimps folks. ;-)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 May 2015 14:17:23 Dave Cole wrote:
> Hand editing grub is supposed to be a no-no.   I have no idea why.
> I used a graphical grub editor the last time I got in trouble with
> grub and that worked fine - no drama.
>
> Dave
>
Do you recall the name of it at this late date?

Thanks Dave.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Dave Cole]

On 5/6/2015 3:57 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 May 2015 14:17:23 Dave Cole wrote:
>> Hand editing grub is supposed to be a no-no.   I have no idea why.
>> I used a graphical grub editor the last time I got in trouble with
>> grub and that worked fine - no drama.
>>
>> Dave
>>
> Do you recall the name of it at this late date?
>
> Thanks Dave.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

I believe it was "Grub Customizer".

https://launchpad.net/~danielrichter2007/+archive/ubuntu/grub-customizer

Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 06 May 2015 18:44:32 Dave Cole wrote:
> On 5/6/2015 3:57 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 06 May 2015 14:17:23 Dave Cole wrote:
> >> Hand editing grub is supposed to be a no-no.   I have no idea why.
> >> I used a graphical grub editor the last time I got in trouble with
> >> grub and that worked fine - no drama.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> > Do you recall the name of it at this late date?
> >
> > Thanks Dave.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> I believe it was "Grub Customizer".
>
> https://launchpad.net/~danielrichter2007/+archive/ubuntu/grub-customiz
>er
>
> Dave

It doesn't look as if wheezy has that.  It does sound handy though.
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Dave Cole]

Gene,

I'm sure I used it for Debian.

Look here at the second entry for a link to a Wheezy build:

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=117971
The key line at that link:
 Or we have Wheezy-compatible packages, built against the Debian 
libraries, in the MEPIS community repositories:

Or here:
http://crunchbang.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=34207

Grub Customizer is that good!

Once it is installed, it's simple to change Grub.

Dave



On 5/7/2015 3:21 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 May 2015 18:44:32 Dave Cole wrote:
>> On 5/6/2015 3:57 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Wednesday 06 May 2015 14:17:23 Dave Cole wrote:
 Hand editing grub is supposed to be a no-no.   I have no idea why.
 I used a graphical grub editor the last time I got in trouble with
 grub and that worked fine - no drama.

 Dave
>>> Do you recall the name of it at this late date?
>>>
>>> Thanks Dave.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> I believe it was "Grub Customizer".
>>
>> https://launchpad.net/~danielrichter2007/+archive/ubuntu/grub-customiz
>> er
>>
>> Dave
> It doesn't look as if wheezy has that.  It does sound handy though.
>> ---
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>>
>> --
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>> 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you
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> Cheers, Gene Heskett

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Dave Cole]

You asked about SSD drives as replacement for rotating disks.

I've been using these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A35X6GM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I've had some installed now for several years on commercial/industrial 
machine that run daily and have yet to have a failure.
They are much more reliable than rotating disks which tended to sign off 
after about 3 years.

Dave

On 5/7/2015 3:21 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 06 May 2015 18:44:32 Dave Cole wrote:
>> On 5/6/2015 3:57 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Wednesday 06 May 2015 14:17:23 Dave Cole wrote:
 Hand editing grub is supposed to be a no-no.   I have no idea why.
 I used a graphical grub editor the last time I got in trouble with
 grub and that worked fine - no drama.

 Dave
>>> Do you recall the name of it at this late date?
>>>
>>> Thanks Dave.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> I believe it was "Grub Customizer".
>>
>> https://launchpad.net/~danielrichter2007/+archive/ubuntu/grub-customiz
>> er
>>
>> Dave
> It doesn't look as if wheezy has that.  It does sound handy though.
>> ---
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>>
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>> 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you
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> Cheers, Gene Heskett

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 07 May 2015 08:51:41 Dave Cole wrote:
> Gene,
>
> I'm sure I used it for Debian.
>
> Look here at the second entry for a link to a Wheezy build:
>
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=117971
>
> The key line at that link:
>  Or we have Wheezy-compatible packages, built against the Debian
>
> libraries, in the MEPIS community repositories:

It does look to be handy, but right now I have bigger, I think 
environment related problems.  Somewhere in my locale, BACKGROUND color 
is not defined.  So anything that uses a graphical interface must be 
done/run from the machines own keyboard and display.

What a revoltin development that is. ;-)

That sounds good, but its a project to do when everything else is 
working.  The lack of x display remoteing is killing me now.

Thanks Dave.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 07 May 2015 08:57:24 Dave Cole wrote:
> You asked about SSD drives as replacement for rotating disks.
>
> I've been using these:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A35X6GM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_
>s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

One, with adaptor ordered. After this, I do NOT trust this 2T Toshiba 
drive.  I think its junk in need of a firmware update.

Just one question:  Since I know ext4 will fry the SSD eventually, what 
filesystem are you using with them?

Thanks Dave.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Dave Cole]

Just running ext4.Yes, they will die eventually but apparently the 
write leveling software in the drives pushes that out many years.
That drive I quoted isn't the fastest but it is fast enough and they 
seem rock solid reliable.

An interesting article on SSDs and Linux.Note that they recommend 
using ext4.
http://www.leaseweblabs.com/2013/07/5-crucial-optimizations-for-ssd-usage-in-ubuntu-linux/

If I can get 6-7 years out of a drive I would be happy.   Although my 
gut feel is that these drives may go well beyond 10 years without much 
difficulty.
If the MOBO is a good one, the next weak link seems to be the power supply.

Once I stick an SSD into an existing system, the number of calls for 
emergency service seems to drop way off.They just don't screw 
up/flake out as much.
Reliability goes way up.

Dave



On 5/7/2015 9:35 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 07 May 2015 08:57:24 Dave Cole wrote:
>> You asked about SSD drives as replacement for rotating disks.
>>
>> I've been using these:
>> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A35X6GM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_
>> s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> One, with adaptor ordered. After this, I do NOT trust this 2T Toshiba
> drive.  I think its junk in need of a firmware update.
>
> Just one question:  Since I know ext4 will fry the SSD eventually, what
> filesystem are you using with them?
>
> Thanks Dave.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 07 May 2015 10:22:07 Dave Cole wrote:
> Just running ext4.Yes, they will die eventually but apparently the
> write leveling software in the drives pushes that out many years.
> That drive I quoted isn't the fastest but it is fast enough and they
> seem rock solid reliable.
I would think their life could be enhanced by letting it take care of the 
wear leveling, which would reduce the re-write housekeeping.  OTOH, if 
you haven't destroyed any in 3 years, that says a hell of a lot. So I'll 
gopher it.  I took the slow, free shipping option so it will be 10 days 
or so.

In the meantime I might be able to grok why the X remoting is failing.
I sure hope anyway.
>
> An interesting article on SSDs and Linux.Note that they recommend
> using ext4.
> http://www.leaseweblabs.com/2013/07/5-crucial-optimizations-for-ssd-us
>age-in-ubuntu-linux/

I'll take a look, thanks.
>
> If I can get 6-7 years out of a drive I would be happy.   Although my
> gut feel is that these drives may go well beyond 10 years without much
> difficulty.
> If the MOBO is a good one, the next weak link seems to be the power
> supply.
>
> Once I stick an SSD into an existing system, the number of calls for
> emergency service seems to drop way off.They just don't screw
> up/flake out as much.
> Reliability goes way up.
>
> Dave

Thanks Dave

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[andy pugh]

On 7 May 2015 at 13:57, Dave Cole  wrote:
> You asked about SSD drives as replacement for rotating disks.
>
> I've been using these:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A35X6GM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have been using these:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SZPPJ9O
The GB/$ ratio is not nearly so good, but mounting is easy, they just
plug into an SATA port.

8GB actually seems to be plenty for a dedicated controller.

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 5/7/2015 6:57 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
> You asked about SSD drives as replacement for rotating disks.
>
> I've been using these:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A35X6GM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> I've had some installed now for several years on commercial/industrial
> machine that run daily and have yet to have a failure.
> They are much more reliable than rotating disks which tended to sign off
> after about 3 years.

Six SSD drives written to death.
http://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead

It took a lot of data writing. For two of the drives more than two 
petabytes.

Most people will never come anywhere close to using up the write 
lifetime of an SSD, but how much use one has had is a consideration if 
you're buying a used one.

A common thing among the tested drives is their ends happened very 
rapidly once errors began to happen.

But the worst thing about many SSDs is they brick themselves, either 
after a hard coded amount of data has been written or after a certain 
but unknown number of errors.

The bricking happens on the next power cycle after the conditions are 
met. So you definitely want software monitoring the SMART status of SSDs 
because should the drive's condition deteriorate to self-destruct, you 
have one chance to save your date. Reboot and it dies. I assume that 
this self-destruct is for security reasons, to prevent people digging 
dead SSDs out of trash bins to see if there's any valuable data.

You cannot recover data from a self-bricked SSD. Intel's 
commercial/industrial market SSDs don't self-brick, they just slow down 
write speeds to a crawl while still allowing the data to be read. They 
cost a lot and require a proprietary interface card. Intel also has 
revived the concept of the "hard card" with their high end SSD mounted 
directly onto a PCIe card. The intended market for it is in physically 
small servers but the "prosumer" and very high end personal computer 
builders have also been buying them.

Doesn't matter to me if I wouldn't wear out an SSD, I wouldn't have one 
that bricks itself when it starts going bad, especially not one that 
bases the kill switch merely on how many writes have been done rather 
than accumulated errors. In the event of write wear or other damage, I'd 
want to be able to set the drive to read only so I can save the data 
then have a *user initiated* destruct that writes 0 to all blocks *then* 
bricks it.

Would you want to have a car with an engine control computer than fried 
itself at exactly 300,000 miles or at the next time the engine was 
turned off after that distance? Most people will never drive a single 
vehicle that far, so why care about a limit?

Another thing to consider is power off data retention. An SSD may not be 
suitable for a system that will be left powered off and unused for long 
periods of time or for offline data backup. I'd stay with magnetic 
storage for those uses.

I've had very few (IIRC 6 or less in over 30 years) hard drives die in 
my computers. Most of them were secondhand, but two were brand new 15 
gig IBM "Deathstar" models. One just went bad while the other would pass 
every diagnostic test and zero-fill and random-walk test I threw at it - 
but install an operating system (if it'd last long enough to get it 
installed) and it'd conk out in a few minutes. If I kept a fan blowing 
air on it from outside the case it would work as a data drive but not 
for Windows. I finally gave it away with a warning about how to treat it 
and to never put anything on it the new owner/victim cared about losing.

The DeskStar debacle is why IBM sold off their storage division to 
Hitachi. Rather than fix the defects and replace all the bad drives with 
new models that were reliable, IBM decided to not even try to rebuild 
their reputation as a manufacturer of rock solid hard drives, just 
dumped ($2.05 billion is a big dump) it to end their losses.

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Erik Christiansen]

On 07.05.15 09:35, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Just one question:  Since I know ext4 will fry the SSD eventually, what 
> filesystem are you using with them?

Some useful conclusions from firsthand experience are outlined here:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Solid_State_Drives#Advantages_over_HDDs

It includes advice on minimising SSD writes, and fstype to use.
IIUC, turning off journalling, and setting noatime, are good starters.

Here's one data point I've kept for reference:

http://lists.luv.asn.au/pipermail/luv-main/2014-May/006309.html

(And then plumb forgot, and bought a whirlygig out of habit.)

Some durability experiments:

http://techreport.com/review/24841/introducing-the-ssd-endurance-experiment
http://techreport.com/review/27436/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-two-freaking-petabytes

I'm told that the Intel SSD dropped out at 750 TB of writes due to going
into read-only mode at exactly that amount, rather than risk sudden
failure or data loss later. That doesn't sound entirely like "bricking".

Excerpts from some January posts on the above ML:

>>>
This machine has been running for over 188 days non-stop, has logged
nearly 19 TB of writes, and is about 2.5% of the way through it's
expected minimum lifespan[1].
Estimated total lifespan time: 20.6 years.
...

Total_LBAs_Written   2066747494  (ie. about 1080 GiB [2])
This has been running for 763 days non-stop. Like the first machine,
it hasn't used any of the reserved blocks yet.  It's about 1.3% of the
way through its min expected lifespan.[3]
Estimated total lifespan time: 160 years.

These people killed one after 24,000 erase cycles and 3 petabytes of
writes: http://www.vojcik.net/samsung-ssd-840-endurance-destruct-test/

I'm not going to lose sleep over the durability of a good quality SSD
drive with adequate wear levelling, especially if it isn't a
tiny-geometry super-dense one.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] My crashomatic lathe box, update, sorta

[Jon Elson]

On 05/07/2015 11:11 PM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> Most people will never come anywhere close to using up the 
> write lifetime of an SSD, but how much use one has had is 
> a consideration if you're buying a used one.
Never, ever, buy a used SSD!

Jon

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