Re: [-empyre-] ethology?
--empyre- soft-skinned space--
Hi John!
A couple of things - it depends how 'clan' is defined; there is plenty of
internecine warfare within clans (see the sagas!) as well as in very
coherent small towns - try being gay in one of them, or a different race.
You say "But if you compare the numbers and the perceptions that Amurikans
have -- people think that foreign aid is a *huge* number, larger than even
military budgets... when in fact it is actually a tiny number. Much better
to imagine we are doing good whilst killing... And altruism in this case,
well, many wide-scaled aid programs are more based in pragmatics ('fix
Ebola over there otherwise it will come here' or literally buying
political cooperation)..."
But this is a red herring; I can cite you any number of cases where people
in the U.S. and for that matter any number of other countries, have given
aid without any such equation. Your "we" is wrong there - who is the "we"
who is giving and who is the "we" who is killing? If I vote against
killing and give money to conservation initiatives in other countries for
example - how is this based on "pragmatics" that something will come here?
People in fact do give, and killers can be kind, and givers can be
violent, but this doesn't play out logically or psychologically.
For example, we give a fair amount of money to various groups without the
stupidity of the ebola equation, I've organized or been part of organized
drives, without any sense that "it will come here" and without any notion
I'm covering up killing for example - you either recognize altruism or
you don't, and if you don't, your small extended family in Iceland is just
as much a part of the problem as people anywhere else. (Btw I was in
Fukuoka for a while years ago, it was a fairly closed-off local city, and
as a foreignor, I was ostracized, yelled at on the street for being
non-Japanese, etc. And I'm from a small town in Pennsylvania, and could
speak of problems there as well. These weren't and maybe still aren't,
atomized societies.)
Yoicks! Who exactly thinks foreign aid is a huge number? No one I know...
Alan
On Fri, 14 Nov 2014, John Hopkins wrote:
--empyre- soft-skinned space--
There's also considerable violence in small societies, in small towns; and
of
this suggests that those social configurations are *not* 'clan' based --
which seems to be the case in our 'mixed-up' society. Internal 'clan'
violence of course happens when there are hierarchic leadership questions,
but those are probably statistically rare as they threaten the viability of a
social unit (internal violence makes the group vulnerable to outside
attack)...
I know when I moved to Iceland, and married into a typical extended family
there -- I was amazed at the family dynamic -- something I'd hardly
experienced in my rather small extended US family. In Iceland, I knew I could
make a phone call to any one of a hundred people and get immediate assistance
for whatever. How strange a concept it was! There sense of family was perhaps
a couple generations 'behind' the US's atomized/nuclear families...
course there are altruistic decisions people make at any scale - otherwise
there
wouldn't be global charities, giving to flood victims in other countries,
and so
But if you compare the numbers and the perceptions that Amurikans have --
people think that foreign aid is a *huge* number, larger than even military
budgets... when in fact it is actually a tiny number. Much better to imagine
we are doing good whilst killing... And altruism in this case, well, many
wide-scaled aid programs are more based in pragmatics ('fix Ebola over there
otherwise it will come here' or literally buying political cooperation)...
And the provision of abstracted currency support for the remote Other, that
seems like very 'thin' empathy somehow... but so many would rather do that
than help a neighbor...
forth. For me, it has to do with picturing the other in relation to the
local, a
kind of negotiated logic...
does this seem grim? maybe it's a cup half empty/half full issue. I know
people do kind things, this is clear. Are we not men? We are Devo...
ciao,
jh
--
++
Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD
grounded on a granite batholith
twitter: @neoscenes
http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/
++
___
empyre forum
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http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
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Re: [-empyre-] ethology?
--empyre- soft-skinned space--
There's also considerable violence in small societies, in small towns; and of
this suggests that those social configurations are *not* 'clan' based -- which
seems to be the case in our 'mixed-up' society. Internal 'clan' violence of
course happens when there are hierarchic leadership questions, but those are
probably statistically rare as they threaten the viability of a social unit
(internal violence makes the group vulnerable to outside attack)...
I know when I moved to Iceland, and married into a typical extended family there
-- I was amazed at the family dynamic -- something I'd hardly experienced in my
rather small extended US family. In Iceland, I knew I could make a phone call to
any one of a hundred people and get immediate assistance for whatever. How
strange a concept it was! There sense of family was perhaps a couple generations
'behind' the US's atomized/nuclear families...
course there are altruistic decisions people make at any scale - otherwise there
wouldn't be global charities, giving to flood victims in other countries, and so
But if you compare the numbers and the perceptions that Amurikans have -- people
think that foreign aid is a *huge* number, larger than even military budgets...
when in fact it is actually a tiny number. Much better to imagine we are doing
good whilst killing... And altruism in this case, well, many wide-scaled aid
programs are more based in pragmatics ('fix Ebola over there otherwise it will
come here' or literally buying political cooperation)... And the provision of
abstracted currency support for the remote Other, that seems like very 'thin'
empathy somehow... but so many would rather do that than help a neighbor...
forth. For me, it has to do with picturing the other in relation to the local, a
kind of negotiated logic...
does this seem grim? maybe it's a cup half empty/half full issue. I know people
do kind things, this is clear. Are we not men? We are Devo...
ciao,
jh
--
++
Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD
grounded on a granite batholith
twitter: @neoscenes
http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/
++
___
empyre forum
empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au
http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] ethology?
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Coot mothers will torture their weaker young, literally torture, until the young coot dies of exhaustion, anomie, etc. The videos are disturbing. And there's bullying, which is definitely a form of torture, among other species - excuse the long quote - When bullying is considered across animals, there is ample evidence that many other animals, including other primates, engage in bullying-like behaviors. Rats and mice are commonly used as models for social stress during different life phases, including adolescence. Studies on these common laboratory rodents indicate that social stress, experienced when one individual repeatedly attacks another or takes resources from them, has immediate and lasting impacts (Kinsey et al, 2007; Vidal et al, 2011). Rats who suffered from bullying-like behaviors were less likely to drink water or consume other resources (Vidal et al, 2011). Mice that suffered repeated social defeats were more anxious and experienced changes in brain chemistry (Kinsey et al, 2007). Bullying-like behaviors extend beyond rodents, and labs, appearing in many species, including other primates. Bullying-like behaviors are found in every major group of primates, and can sometimes be severe. Among baboons, one of the best-known, non-human primates in the world, bullying-like behaviors are common. Baboons are common throughout sub-Saharan Africa and many species live in female-centered societies that are held together by matrilineal bonds that span multiple generations. Groups of related females work together to compete over resources and in doing so regularly gang up on females from other matrilines (Altmann, 1980). Female baboons have large canines (though nowhere near as large as their male counterparts) and their fights can be intense and, occasionally, dangerous. Females who regularly lose fights and are low ranking are more stressed and have lower reproductive success than their higher-ranking group-mates (Sapolsky, 1987). While female baboons are not always bully-like toward one another, they frequently use intimidation and aggression to modify the behaviors of others and to get resources from them (Seyfarth, 1976). Bullying-like behaviors are not restricted to female primates. Chimpanzees live in communities with many males and females and males live in the groups their born into their entire lives. Males also form dominance relationships with each other based on physical power and friendships, which they use in competition over mates. Male chimpanzees regularly intimidate each other with bluffs, displays, charges and aggression, which can range from making another male move from a resting spot to physical violence. One of the areas I focus on in my research is the development of behavior in male chimpanzees, paying particular attention to adolescence. Adolescence is a time of great change and uncertainty for male chimpanzees, when they leave their mothers and enter into the adult male social world. When they do that they enter a world of constant posturing and networking that threatens to erupt into violence at any moment. Much like their human cousins, adolescent male chimpanzees begin at the bottom of the male dominance hierarchy (Goodall, 1986) and have to demonstrate their value as a friend and ally, while growing and putting on muscle mass in order to move up the hierarchy. Because adolescent males are smaller, weaker, less experienced and have to challenge other males in order to become competitive, they make attractive targets for older males, and older adolescents and adults regularly attack them (Sherrow, 2008). In short, adolescent males are almost continually bullied as they attempt to join the male social world. In most cases the bullying-like behaviors experienced by male chimpanzees are temporary and relatively harmless. The most common form of intimidation involves a dominant male puffing himself up, with all of his hair standing on end, and walking toward or by another male. This is usually enough to compel the subordinate, or lower ranking, male to pant grunt (a short uhh, uhh, uhh vocalization which is repeated several times and serves to recognize the dominance of another chimpanzee), don a fear grimace and put their hand out in a palm up begging gesture. However, if two males are close in rank or a male fails to adhere to social norms within the community, bullying-like behaviors can become more intense and, on occasion, dangerous. One of the reasons bullying-like behaviors can become so dangerous among male chimpanzees is that they regularly gang up on each other during aggressive interactions in what are called coalitions. On three different occasions, researchers at three different field sites, observed coalitions of adult male chimpanzees attack and kill a male from their group, apparently because they did not adhere to the social norms
Re: [-empyre-] ethology?
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- There's also considerable violence in small societies, in small towns; and of course there are altruistic decisions people make at any scale - otherwise there wouldn't be global charities, giving to flood victims in other countries, and so forth. For me, it has to do with picturing the other in relation to the local, a kind of negotiated logic... Thanks!, Alan On Fri, 14 Nov 2014, John Hopkins wrote: The balance between the violence and empathy probably have a break point at the number 150 -- the 'average' maximum number of relations that the human brain is evolved to be mindful of -- the clan-based society... Empathy can extend no further than that (perhaps), except in extraordinary circumstances (Jesus, Buddha, etc)... The rest of those outside the 150 are simply challengers of my use of resources that I employ to optimize the reproducibility of my clan (unless there is an attractive gene-pool-mixing opportunity 'out there'). Those may have to be taken by force. What genetic evidence is there of altruism that extends beyond clan? I know there has been some research in that regard, but my phenomenological observations suggest that humans are, on average and in aggregate, unable to make altruistic decisions on a wide scale (global warming seems to be one example)... Decisions can be made on a smaller scale when conditions pressure such, but otherwise, resource consumption and nest-soiling tendencies are not immediately impinging on quality of life, so, who cares? and so on... jh -- ++ Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD grounded on a granite batholith twitter: @neoscenes http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/ ++ ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu == email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 718-813-3285 music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ current text http://www.alansondheim.org/sw.txt == ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] ethology?
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Dear Alan, it’s always problematic to argue that there is a difference between human beings and other species. The longer one looks at it the smaller the difference become. But I think the use of violence is in fact quite different. It is true that violence between animals often has a kind of theatrical or performative element. What decides a fight is not always being strong: to intimidate the rival is crucial. But I doubt that torture can be found between animals: the object of torture is torture, George Orwell wrote this in his Nineteen Eight-Four. The object of torture is not to intimidate the other but to traumatize the victim, to traumatize the victim’s psyche. And the problem seems to be that this is taking place on the basis of a kind of split: a torturer often develops quite an intense relation to the victim and a quite complex knowledge of his psyche. Is this empathy? Probably yes. Empathy is no guaranty against cruelty. It never was. Shakespeare made it already very clear. From Titus Andronicus till Othello: who is more conscious about the singular psyche of the other thanShakespeare’s cruel heroes? Reinhold > Am 14.11.2014 um 20:54 schrieb Alan Sondheim : > > --empyre- soft-skinned space-- > > > I read with great interest, Reinhold's post; he states "All living being is > open, in constant exchange with the world, with persons, other species and > things around, with what is his Umwelt or his living-world. A newborn is in > an extremely intense exchange with his environment. Just read what Daniel > Stern 1985 wrote in his ?The Interpersonal World of the Infant? about the > vitality affects: Long before there is any experience of an ?I?, there is an > intense communication of forms of feeling, of affects taking place. Or to say > it in a more philosophical way: The ?I? always comes late, the encounter with > the other always already has taken place before the ?I? notices it." > > I then read the news: > > US led strikes hit Islamic State, al-Qaida-linked group in Syria Jerusalem > Post - 57 minutes ago WASHINGTON - US-led air strikes hit 10 units of Islamic > State fighters in Syria in recent days, as well as militants with the > al-Qaida-linked Khorasan Group, US Central Command said in a statement on > Friday. Islamic State sets sights on Saudi Arabia BBC News - 20 minutes ago > In a 17-minute audio message, purportedly from its elusive leader Abu Bakr > al-Baghdadi, the group sets its sights firmly on Saudi Arabia, birthplace of > Islam and the world's largest oil producer and exporter. Militants seize > hometown of kidnapped schoolgirls Businessweek - 1 hour ago MAIDUGURI, > Nigeria (AP) - Islamic extremists in Nigeria have seized Chibok, forcing > thousands of people to flee the town where insurgents kidnapped nearly 300 > schoolgirls in April, a local official said Friday. Student Found Unconscious > at WVU Fraternity Dies ABC News - 19 minutes ago A West Virginia University > student found unconscious and not breathing at a fraternity house died > Friday, a day after the school ordered a halt to all activities at > fraternities and sororities, officials said. Capital Wired Male Infanticide > -- Male Mammals Kill Rival Babies To Endure Own Offspring Capital Wired - 18 > minutes ago When it comes to the animal kingdom, it's the survival of the > fittest and his offspring. To endure their own offspring, some mammals kills > the babies of the rivals. Bullying Increases Mating Prospects For Male > Chimpanzees [STUDY] ValueWalk - 45 minutes ago A 17-year study of chimpanzees > in Tanzania reports that bullying may be of benefit to males of the group. > More specifically, males that exhibited long-term aggressive behavior towards > females, up to and including physical assaults, significantly increased. > > - And I wonder, why isn't sociobiology on the table here? It seems to me that > violence is ingrained in being-human; although there are exceptions, most of > human history seems bathed in blood. For me, part of the question does > involve empathy - how can we so identify with the other, that the torture > stops? And almost everything I've read, from Amery through Scarry through the > Nuremberg War trial transcripts, presents against this possibility, that in > fact torture has its own perverse logic, its own closure. I realize that > sociobiology is considered problematic; on the other hand, I don't know how > other-species evidence can be overlooked (even sea anenomes have (for us, > slow-motion) wars). Comments appreciated here. > > Thanks greatly, Alan > ___ > empyre forum > empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au > http://empyre.library.cornell.edu ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
Re: [-empyre-] ethology?
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- Hi Alan -- - And I wonder, why isn't sociobiology on the table here? It seems to me that violence is ingrained in being-human; although there are exceptions, most of human history seems bathed in blood. For me, part of the question does involve empathy - how can we so identify with the other, that the torture stops? And The balance between the violence and empathy probably have a break point at the number 150 -- the 'average' maximum number of relations that the human brain is evolved to be mindful of -- the clan-based society... Empathy can extend no further than that (perhaps), except in extraordinary circumstances (Jesus, Buddha, etc)... The rest of those outside the 150 are simply challengers of my use of resources that I employ to optimize the reproducibility of my clan (unless there is an attractive gene-pool-mixing opportunity 'out there'). Those may have to be taken by force. What genetic evidence is there of altruism that extends beyond clan? I know there has been some research in that regard, but my phenomenological observations suggest that humans are, on average and in aggregate, unable to make altruistic decisions on a wide scale (global warming seems to be one example)... Decisions can be made on a smaller scale when conditions pressure such, but otherwise, resource consumption and nest-soiling tendencies are not immediately impinging on quality of life, so, who cares? and so on... jh -- ++ Dr. John Hopkins, BSc, MFA, PhD grounded on a granite batholith twitter: @neoscenes http://tech-no-mad.net/blog/ ++ ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
[-empyre-] ethology?
--empyre- soft-skinned space-- I read with great interest, Reinhold's post; he states "All living being is open, in constant exchange with the world, with persons, other species and things around, with what is his Umwelt or his living-world. A newborn is in an extremely intense exchange with his environment. Just read what Daniel Stern 1985 wrote in his ?The Interpersonal World of the Infant? about the vitality affects: Long before there is any experience of an ?I?, there is an intense communication of forms of feeling, of affects taking place. Or to say it in a more philosophical way: The ?I? always comes late, the encounter with the other always already has taken place before the ?I? notices it." I then read the news: US led strikes hit Islamic State, al-Qaida-linked group in Syria Jerusalem Post - 57 minutes ago WASHINGTON - US-led air strikes hit 10 units of Islamic State fighters in Syria in recent days, as well as militants with the al-Qaida-linked Khorasan Group, US Central Command said in a statement on Friday. Islamic State sets sights on Saudi Arabia BBC News - 20 minutes ago In a 17-minute audio message, purportedly from its elusive leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the group sets its sights firmly on Saudi Arabia, birthplace of Islam and the world's largest oil producer and exporter. Militants seize hometown of kidnapped schoolgirls Businessweek - 1 hour ago MAIDUGURI, Nigeria (AP) - Islamic extremists in Nigeria have seized Chibok, forcing thousands of people to flee the town where insurgents kidnapped nearly 300 schoolgirls in April, a local official said Friday. Student Found Unconscious at WVU Fraternity Dies ABC News - 19 minutes ago A West Virginia University student found unconscious and not breathing at a fraternity house died Friday, a day after the school ordered a halt to all activities at fraternities and sororities, officials said. Capital Wired Male Infanticide -- Male Mammals Kill Rival Babies To Endure Own Offspring Capital Wired - 18 minutes ago When it comes to the animal kingdom, it's the survival of the fittest and his offspring. To endure their own offspring, some mammals kills the babies of the rivals. Bullying Increases Mating Prospects For Male Chimpanzees [STUDY] ValueWalk - 45 minutes ago A 17-year study of chimpanzees in Tanzania reports that bullying may be of benefit to males of the group. More specifically, males that exhibited long-term aggressive behavior towards females, up to and including physical assaults, significantly increased. - And I wonder, why isn't sociobiology on the table here? It seems to me that violence is ingrained in being-human; although there are exceptions, most of human history seems bathed in blood. For me, part of the question does involve empathy - how can we so identify with the other, that the torture stops? And almost everything I've read, from Amery through Scarry through the Nuremberg War trial transcripts, presents against this possibility, that in fact torture has its own perverse logic, its own closure. I realize that sociobiology is considered problematic; on the other hand, I don't know how other-species evidence can be overlooked (even sea anenomes have (for us, slow-motion) wars). Comments appreciated here. Thanks greatly, Alan ___ empyre forum empyre@lists.cofa.unsw.edu.au http://empyre.library.cornell.edu
