Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
2014/1/3 Jérôme Pinot ngc...@gmail.com On 01/02/14 21:29, Davide Andreoli wrote: Jérôme: can you please provide some examples of the changes you made to adapt ePeriodique to the dark themes? so that I can elaborate better. Maybe the most annoying thing is related to pictures using transparency. They usually expect a white background. In eperiodique, there are lattices for the crystal structure which was black in a transparent png as you can see here bottom right: http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/shot2.png Switching to new theme made the lattice unreadable. I had choice between adding a white background or changing the lattice color. Having a white square over the background is not really eye-candy so I decided to change the color of the pictures. Unfortunately, I didn't find yet a way to do the same for the 118 bohr models and so it doesn't look really nice (bottom center): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/shot4.png For the images I suggest you to use solid color images (no alpha) and try the photo widget, it has a nice border around the image that should fix your issue here. Edje animations with colors (mouse over, etc) was made with bw theme so the colors had to be adjusted to the new theme but that was not really difficult. sure not difficult, but now that you made your hilight blue it does not fit with other themes the user can have. This is much more problematic to be made theme-agnostic, I suggest you to change the type of animation (ex: instead of hilight with a colored rect made the item bigger on hover) or use a neutral color for the hilight (like black). Making a big title with label was not easy when I started eperiodique: widget scaling was not working at this time, default theme didn't provide many choices. It was actually easier to do this with edje. I agree with Raster on the style issue: we definitively need more style to make development easier. indeed entries will need more styles to solve this issue. I'm going to start a new ml thread to discuss the new styles we can implement, thanks for your report! davemds -- Jérôme Pinot http://ngc891.blogdns.net/ -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Davide Andreoli d...@gurumeditation.it wrote: 2014/1/3 Jérôme Pinot ngc...@gmail.com On 01/02/14 21:29, Davide Andreoli wrote: Jérôme: can you please provide some examples of the changes you made to adapt ePeriodique to the dark themes? so that I can elaborate better. Maybe the most annoying thing is related to pictures using transparency. They usually expect a white background. In eperiodique, there are lattices for the crystal structure which was black in a transparent png as you can see here bottom right: http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/shot2.png Switching to new theme made the lattice unreadable. I had choice between adding a white background or changing the lattice color. Having a white square over the background is not really eye-candy so I decided to change the color of the pictures. Unfortunately, I didn't find yet a way to do the same for the 118 bohr models and so it doesn't look really nice (bottom center): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/shot4.png For the images I suggest you to use solid color images (no alpha) and try the photo widget, it has a nice border around the image that should fix your issue here. Edje animations with colors (mouse over, etc) was made with bw theme so the colors had to be adjusted to the new theme but that was not really difficult. sure not difficult, but now that you made your hilight blue it does not fit with other themes the user can have. This is much more problematic to be made theme-agnostic, I suggest you to change the type of animation (ex: instead of hilight with a colored rect made the item bigger on hover) or use a neutral color for the hilight (like black). That remind me, we should maybe think about adding and handling color class for elementary. Wouldn't that solve this problem ? -- Cedric BAIL -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On 01/02/14 21:29, Davide Andreoli wrote: Jérôme: can you please provide some examples of the changes you made to adapt ePeriodique to the dark themes? so that I can elaborate better. Maybe the most annoying thing is related to pictures using transparency. They usually expect a white background. In eperiodique, there are lattices for the crystal structure which was black in a transparent png as you can see here bottom right: http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/shot2.png Switching to new theme made the lattice unreadable. I had choice between adding a white background or changing the lattice color. Having a white square over the background is not really eye-candy so I decided to change the color of the pictures. Unfortunately, I didn't find yet a way to do the same for the 118 bohr models and so it doesn't look really nice (bottom center): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/shot4.png Edje animations with colors (mouse over, etc) was made with bw theme so the colors had to be adjusted to the new theme but that was not really difficult. Making a big title with label was not easy when I started eperiodique: widget scaling was not working at this time, default theme didn't provide many choices. It was actually easier to do this with edje. I agree with Raster on the style issue: we definitively need more style to make development easier. -- Jérôme Pinot http://ngc891.blogdns.net/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
i can change the popup style to envetor's in near the future. -Regards, Hermet- -Original Message- From: Davide Andreolid...@gurumeditation.it To: Enlightenment developer listenlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net; Cc: Sent: 2014-01-03 (금) 05:29:07 Subject: Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL 2014/1/2 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri barbieri@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Tom Hacohen tom.hacohen@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. my team have experience with that and it's never that simple. Particularly the first try may prove that lighter version needs different shadows with different sizes and offsets. Of course you can change to the larger version and add padding inside the image of the smaller to simplify theme, but there is some work to do. Indeed that's not an easy work, I also proposed something like this some times ago. At that time I was thinking about doing a light and simple theme, simpler in the means of edc, so that user can use a cleaner base for their extensions... but my proposal goes in the void at the end. To speak about the current issue: I'm not sure a light/dark theme can solve the original problem, even if I know that the theme is (for example) a dark one, that do not implies that my shiny-blue (for example) label will fit well with the theme background. IMO the concept here is that elm application should never set colors or styles that fit with the default theme. I know it's not an easy task for the developer but in my experience it is usually doable. What we can do to improve the situation is to provide more default styles for widgets and texts. For example labels and entries should have much more tags than the current hilight, we could provide (for example) error, title, big_title, tag... or h1, h2, h3 and so on. This will cut down the number of situations where the developer need to provide custom themes. Jérôme: can you please provide some examples of the changes you made to adapt ePeriodique to the dark themes? so that I can elaborate better. PS: I recently tried enventor, it's theme looks really good, but it suffer from the same problem imo, it is tied to the default theme! PPS: the enventor popup theme is REALLY COOL, but it make all the other apps that use popup looks like they have a not so cool dialogs :) Raster: can we use the enventor popup theme in elm default? do you like that popup? davemds -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 Contact: http://www.gustavobarbieri.com.br/contact -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
also i pushed the task pane collase/expand feature. so that enventor can be more lightweight. -Regards, Hermet- -Original Message- From: Carsten Haitzlerras...@rasterman.com To: Enlightenment developer listenlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net; Cc: Sent: 2014-01-03 (금) 09:44:15 Subject: Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 21:29:07 +0100 Davide Andreoli dave@gurumeditation.it said: 2014/1/2 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri barbieri@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Tom Hacohen tom.hacohen@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. my team have experience with that and it's never that simple. Particularly the first try may prove that lighter version needs different shadows with different sizes and offsets. Of course you can change to the larger version and add padding inside the image of the smaller to simplify theme, but there is some work to do. Indeed that's not an easy work, I also proposed something like this some times ago. At that time I was thinking about doing a light and simple theme, simpler in the means of edc, so that user can use a cleaner base for their extensions... but my proposal goes in the void at the end. To speak about the current issue: I'm not sure a light/dark theme can solve the original problem, even if I know that the theme is (for example) a dark one, that do not implies that my shiny-blue (for example) label will fit well with the theme background. IMO the concept here is that elm application should never set colors or styles that fit with the default theme. I know it's not an easy task for the developer but in my experience it is usually doable. What we can do to improve the situation is to provide more default styles for widgets and texts. For example labels and entries should have much more tags than the current hilight, we could provide (for example) error, title, big_title, tag... or h1, h2, h3 and so on. This will cut down the number of situations where the developer need to provide custom themes. and voila! you have hit the nail on the head. YES! the solution is to provide more styles so apps have to less and less go out of their way to make custom edj stuff. if they do make custom edj files.. these are self contained graphical elements that do not have to blend/merge or match with anything the core ui theme manages OR it is simple LAYOUT. no images or rects or text/look - just relative layout and animations. if there is a real need for a new style, the app can use a theme EXTENSION edj file - but be prepared for the look to maybe clash... BUT unlike direct elm_layouts pointing to a custom edj file - a theme extension file is meant to extend your theme styles and it allows for the default theme or user them to override your extensions. this basically is a big hint to add that style to the default so everyone can use it and it can be managed and kept in sync with the default theme. :) Jérôme: can you please provide some examples of the changes you made to adapt ePeriodique to the dark themes? so that I can elaborate better. PS: I recently tried enventor, it's theme looks really good, but it suffer from the same problem imo, it is tied to the default theme! PPS: the enventor popup theme is REALLY COOL, but it make all the other apps that use popup looks like they have a not so cool dialogs :) Raster: can we use the enventor popup theme in elm default? do you like that popup? can we branch that off to another topic? the default theme in elm now covers all of elm AND e18. it is big enough to be a major piece of software in its own right. if there is stuff we can improve (and there definitely is) we should discuss that via things like phab were you have a patch submission, or bug task. i know that several features need to go back from apps into elm - like styles. the 2 arrows on the pane separator should become a core feature in the pane widget including the collapse/expand animation. this means core theme changes to support these buttons etc. i know that terminology has some theme elements that should also go back into elm - especially the terminal bg and shading thing - it would be good for frames. rant btw - i'm
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL (was: Re: ePeriodique 0.5)
Agree. At least we should leave the white theme until 2.0 for the theme-extension apps. Even if the white is not in the default but the extra pacakge) -Regards, Hermet- -Original Message- From: Tom Hacohentom.haco...@samsung.com To: enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net; Cc: Sent: 2014-01-02 (목) 19:54:30 Subject: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL (was: Re: ePeriodique 0.5) It's really bad that applications need to be adjusted to be compatible with elm 1.8. I think we should find a way to have a dark/light concept. So first of all, we'll ship two themes by default, and that second of all, people will be able to provide two themes to their applications, and have the correct one loaded according to system theme's darkness. Thoughts? -- Tom. On 02/01/14 03:49, Jérôme Pinot wrote: Hi, I updated ePeriodique, the EFL periodic table, to be compatible with the new elementary 1.8 theme. Website (with screenshots): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/ Direct download: http://sourceforge.net/projects/eperiodique/files/0.5/eperiodique-0.5.tar.bz2/download Blog note about the migration 1.7-1.8 : http://ngc891.blogdns.net/?p=350 -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
[E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL (was: Re: ePeriodique 0.5)
It's really bad that applications need to be adjusted to be compatible with elm 1.8. I think we should find a way to have a dark/light concept. So first of all, we'll ship two themes by default, and that second of all, people will be able to provide two themes to their applications, and have the correct one loaded according to system theme's darkness. Thoughts? -- Tom. On 02/01/14 03:49, Jérôme Pinot wrote: Hi, I updated ePeriodique, the EFL periodic table, to be compatible with the new elementary 1.8 theme. Website (with screenshots): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/ Direct download: http://sourceforge.net/projects/eperiodique/files/0.5/eperiodique-0.5.tar.bz2/download Blog note about the migration 1.7-1.8 : http://ngc891.blogdns.net/?p=350 -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL (was: Re: ePeriodique 0.5)
I assume you're volunteering to make and maintain the light one then? On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:54:30 + Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: It's really bad that applications need to be adjusted to be compatible with elm 1.8. I think we should find a way to have a dark/light concept. So first of all, we'll ship two themes by default, and that second of all, people will be able to provide two themes to their applications, and have the correct one loaded according to system theme's darkness. Thoughts? -- Tom. On 02/01/14 03:49, Jérôme Pinot wrote: Hi, I updated ePeriodique, the EFL periodic table, to be compatible with the new elementary 1.8 theme. Website (with screenshots): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/ Direct download: http://sourceforge.net/projects/eperiodique/files/0.5/eperiodique-0.5.tar.bz2/download Blog note about the migration 1.7-1.8 : http://ngc891.blogdns.net/?p=350 -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. -- Tom. On 02/01/14 13:55, Michael Blumenkrantz wrote: I assume you're volunteering to make and maintain the light one then? On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:54:30 + Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: It's really bad that applications need to be adjusted to be compatible with elm 1.8. I think we should find a way to have a dark/light concept. So first of all, we'll ship two themes by default, and that second of all, people will be able to provide two themes to their applications, and have the correct one loaded according to system theme's darkness. Thoughts? -- Tom. On 02/01/14 03:49, Jérôme Pinot wrote: Hi, I updated ePeriodique, the EFL periodic table, to be compatible with the new elementary 1.8 theme. Website (with screenshots): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/ Direct download: http://sourceforge.net/projects/eperiodique/files/0.5/eperiodique-0.5.tar.bz2/download Blog note about the migration 1.7-1.8 : http://ngc891.blogdns.net/?p=350 -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
If you hate these kinds of replies then you could easily prevent them by proposing a possible plan of action for the community to take instead of a mail which sounds like someone else take care of my idea I think the most interesting part of your mail is that you immediately deflect from the possibility of working on this idea yourself, which seems to prove my point. For the record I think this is a worthwhile idea. Some community members have already begun making utilities to do this, so perhaps we should incorporate this work. Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. -- Tom. On 02/01/14 13:55, Michael Blumenkrantz wrote: I assume you're volunteering to make and maintain the light one then? On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:54:30 + Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: It's really bad that applications need to be adjusted to be compatible with elm 1.8. I think we should find a way to have a dark/light concept. So first of all, we'll ship two themes by default, and that second of all, people will be able to provide two themes to their applications, and have the correct one loaded according to system theme's darkness. Thoughts? -- Tom. On 02/01/14 03:49, Jérôme Pinot wrote: Hi, I updated ePeriodique, the EFL periodic table, to be compatible with the new elementary 1.8 theme. Website (with screenshots): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/ Direct download: http://sourceforge.net/projects/eperiodique/files/0.5/eperiodique-0.5.tar.bz2/download Blog note about the migration 1.7-1.8 : http://ngc891.blogdns.net/?p=350 -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On 02/01/14 14:35, Mike Blumenkrantz wrote: If you hate these kinds of replies then you could easily prevent them by proposing a possible plan of action for the community to take instead of a mail which sounds like someone else take care of my idea Why would I do any work, before anyone even shows any interest? I suggested the target goal, if people are willing to have 2 themes we maintain (i.e both are shipped by default), a plan (wow, you are such a bureaucrat) can be made. Plan of action: 1. Agree it's wanted, needed and we are willing to have the extra overhead of maintaining two themes. 2. Actually do it. I think the most interesting part of your mail is that you immediately deflect from the possibility of working on this idea yourself, which seems to prove my point. I think the most part of your email is that you try to start stupid arguments based on bullshit made up comments you say. I started by arguing the general case, that emails like this should not need to be backed by people who are willing to do all of the work alone, continued by describing a case in which I was willing (not saying one way or the other). The only place where I ever said anything that looks like I'm not willing to do all the work on my own (haven't decided if I am or not yet) is the second paragraph where I was vague and said we'll figure things out. For the record I think this is a worthwhile idea. Some community members have already begun making utilities to do this, so perhaps we should incorporate this work. Which utilities are you referring to specifically? Could help if we do decide to go with it. -- Tom. Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. -- Tom. On 02/01/14 13:55, Michael Blumenkrantz wrote: I assume you're volunteering to make and maintain the light one then? On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:54:30 + Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: It's really bad that applications need to be adjusted to be compatible with elm 1.8. I think we should find a way to have a dark/light concept. So first of all, we'll ship two themes by default, and that second of all, people will be able to provide two themes to their applications, and have the correct one loaded according to system theme's darkness. Thoughts? -- Tom. On 02/01/14 03:49, Jérôme Pinot wrote: Hi, I updated ePeriodique, the EFL periodic table, to be compatible with the new elementary 1.8 theme. Website (with screenshots): http://eperiodique.sourceforge.net/ Direct download: http://sourceforge.net/projects/eperiodique/files/0.5/eperiodique-0.5.tar.bz2/download Blog note about the migration 1.7-1.8 : http://ngc891.blogdns.net/?p=350 -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. my team have experience with that and it's never that simple. Particularly the first try may prove that lighter version needs different shadows with different sizes and offsets. Of course you can change to the larger version and add padding inside the image of the smaller to simplify theme, but there is some work to do. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 Contact: http://www.gustavobarbieri.com.br/contact -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
2014/1/2 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri barbi...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. my team have experience with that and it's never that simple. Particularly the first try may prove that lighter version needs different shadows with different sizes and offsets. Of course you can change to the larger version and add padding inside the image of the smaller to simplify theme, but there is some work to do. Indeed that's not an easy work, I also proposed something like this some times ago. At that time I was thinking about doing a light and simple theme, simpler in the means of edc, so that user can use a cleaner base for their extensions... but my proposal goes in the void at the end. To speak about the current issue: I'm not sure a light/dark theme can solve the original problem, even if I know that the theme is (for example) a dark one, that do not implies that my shiny-blue (for example) label will fit well with the theme background. IMO the concept here is that elm application should never set colors or styles that fit with the default theme. I know it's not an easy task for the developer but in my experience it is usually doable. What we can do to improve the situation is to provide more default styles for widgets and texts. For example labels and entries should have much more tags than the current hilight, we could provide (for example) error, title, big_title, tag... or h1, h2, h3 and so on. This will cut down the number of situations where the developer need to provide custom themes. Jérôme: can you please provide some examples of the changes you made to adapt ePeriodique to the dark themes? so that I can elaborate better. PS: I recently tried enventor, it's theme looks really good, but it suffer from the same problem imo, it is tied to the default theme! PPS: the enventor popup theme is REALLY COOL, but it make all the other apps that use popup looks like they have a not so cool dialogs :) Raster: can we use the enventor popup theme in elm default? do you like that popup? davemds -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 Contact: http://www.gustavobarbieri.com.br/contact -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
Yeah, there's work. Also need to generate new images for the new design. I'm well aware. It's just not *that* much. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri barbi...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. my team have experience with that and it's never that simple. Particularly the first try may prove that lighter version needs different shadows with different sizes and offsets. Of course you can change to the larger version and add padding inside the image of the smaller to simplify theme, but there is some work to do. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 Contact: http://www.gustavobarbieri.com.br/contact -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On 01/03/2014 06:59 AM, Davide Andreoli wrote: 2014/1/2 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri barbi...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. my team have experience with that and it's never that simple. Particularly the first try may prove that lighter version needs different shadows with different sizes and offsets. Of course you can change to the larger version and add padding inside the image of the smaller to simplify theme, but there is some work to do. Indeed that's not an easy work, I also proposed something like this some times ago. At that time I was thinking about doing a light and simple theme, simpler in the means of edc, so that user can use a cleaner base for their extensions... but my proposal goes in the void at the end. To speak about the current issue: I'm not sure a light/dark theme can solve the original problem, even if I know that the theme is (for example) a dark one, that do not implies that my shiny-blue (for example) label will fit well with the theme background. IMO the concept here is that elm application should never set colors or styles that fit with the default theme. I know it's not an easy task for the developer but in my experience it is usually doable. What we can do to improve the situation is to provide more default styles for widgets and texts. For example labels and entries should have much more tags than the current hilight, we could provide (for example) error, title, big_title, tag... or h1, h2, h3 and so on. This will cut down the number of situations where the developer need to provide custom themes. Jérôme: can you please provide some examples of the changes you made to adapt ePeriodique to the dark themes? so that I can elaborate better. PS: I recently tried enventor, it's theme looks really good, but it suffer from the same problem imo, it is tied to the default theme! PPS: the enventor popup theme is REALLY COOL, but it make all the other apps that use popup looks like they have a not so cool dialogs :) Raster: can we use the enventor popup theme in elm default? do you like that popup? davemds Hi All, I was going to try scripting up a conversion from dark to light using imagemagik and some manual image manipulation along with sed. I've already got a good framework from doing the openSUSE theme http://simotek.net/tech/projects/opensuse-e/enlightenment-e17-on-opensuse-13-1/ and http://simotek.net/tech/projects/opensuse-e/enlightenment-e18-2-and-terminology-0-4-0-now-on-opensuse/. I also have 1 or 2 other themes that are very work in progress. I am working out of https://github.com/simotek/Enlightenment-Themes (not entirely up to date), part of my job is writing user interfaces for hand held devices. Its the sort of work i enjoy. If the kids are good over the next couple of days i'll throw together a working prototype for comment. If there is a light and dark theme done consistently and other theme authors follow as well every application should work fine with every theme. Cheers, Simon -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 21:29:07 +0100 Davide Andreoli d...@gurumeditation.it said: 2014/1/2 Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri barbi...@gmail.com On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. my team have experience with that and it's never that simple. Particularly the first try may prove that lighter version needs different shadows with different sizes and offsets. Of course you can change to the larger version and add padding inside the image of the smaller to simplify theme, but there is some work to do. Indeed that's not an easy work, I also proposed something like this some times ago. At that time I was thinking about doing a light and simple theme, simpler in the means of edc, so that user can use a cleaner base for their extensions... but my proposal goes in the void at the end. To speak about the current issue: I'm not sure a light/dark theme can solve the original problem, even if I know that the theme is (for example) a dark one, that do not implies that my shiny-blue (for example) label will fit well with the theme background. IMO the concept here is that elm application should never set colors or styles that fit with the default theme. I know it's not an easy task for the developer but in my experience it is usually doable. What we can do to improve the situation is to provide more default styles for widgets and texts. For example labels and entries should have much more tags than the current hilight, we could provide (for example) error, title, big_title, tag... or h1, h2, h3 and so on. This will cut down the number of situations where the developer need to provide custom themes. and voila! you have hit the nail on the head. YES! the solution is to provide more styles so apps have to less and less go out of their way to make custom edj stuff. if they do make custom edj files.. these are self contained graphical elements that do not have to blend/merge or match with anything the core ui theme manages OR it is simple LAYOUT. no images or rects or text/look - just relative layout and animations. if there is a real need for a new style, the app can use a theme EXTENSION edj file - but be prepared for the look to maybe clash... BUT unlike direct elm_layouts pointing to a custom edj file - a theme extension file is meant to extend your theme styles and it allows for the default theme or user them to override your extensions. this basically is a big hint to add that style to the default so everyone can use it and it can be managed and kept in sync with the default theme. :) Jérôme: can you please provide some examples of the changes you made to adapt ePeriodique to the dark themes? so that I can elaborate better. PS: I recently tried enventor, it's theme looks really good, but it suffer from the same problem imo, it is tied to the default theme! PPS: the enventor popup theme is REALLY COOL, but it make all the other apps that use popup looks like they have a not so cool dialogs :) Raster: can we use the enventor popup theme in elm default? do you like that popup? can we branch that off to another topic? the default theme in elm now covers all of elm AND e18. it is big enough to be a major piece of software in its own right. if there is stuff we can improve (and there definitely is) we should discuss that via things like phab were you have a patch submission, or bug task. i know that several features need to go back from apps into elm - like styles. the 2 arrows on the pane separator should become a core feature in the pane widget including the collapse/expand animation. this means core theme changes to support these buttons etc. i know that terminology has some theme elements that should also go back into elm - especially the terminal bg and shading thing - it would be good for frames. rant btw - i'm seeing ugliness creep already in 1.8 - the popup with the x button in elm test. seriously guys! come on! do better. have some semblance of quality control on the ui. stop fobbing off excuses with i'm a programmer not a designer. deal with it. you are working on a gui toolkit. grow some design skills ro go work an apache or the kernel or something unrelated to gui. g.
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 20:18:51 + Tom Hacohen t...@stosb.com said: Yeah, there's work. Also need to generate new images for the new design. I'm well aware. It's just not *that* much. until the current dark theme is: 1. more polished. it has too many rough bits. 2. people stop treating a theme as someone else's job - i'm just a programmer so a red box or yet another button with the x chr will do for a close button instead of doing it right and take graphics seriously. 3. has images split out so we use colorclasses for the blue bits in the edc and the images that are blue are split into coloured layers and overlays for white/hilight etc. so blue can now be entirely varied just by colorclass changes it's not worth the maintenance effort. let's not multiply our work when what is there still is not fully baked and people seems to take a lax attitude towards it. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 7:46 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri barbi...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Tom Hacohen tom.haco...@samsung.com wrote: I hate comments like that, they are wrong at their core. I'm well aware, this takes a lot of effort to fix it, like many other bugs/issues we have. It doesn't mean just one guy (the one who raised the concern) should do all the work on his own, or even coordinate the efforts. Furthermore, even if I was willing, and was intending on doing that, the nature of the change would require this email. Deciding we officially maintain two themes is a big thing. I've raised the flag, if people agree/want to do it, we'll figure things out. Anyway, it shouldn't be *too* much work, as it'll just be generating two themes from the same edc and having macros for colours, and two sets of images. my team have experience with that and it's never that simple. Particularly the first try may prove that lighter version needs different shadows with different sizes and offsets. Of course you can change to the larger version and add padding inside the image of the smaller to simplify theme, but there is some work to do. -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri -- Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 Contact: http://www.gustavobarbieri.com.br/contact -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel -- - Codito, ergo sum - I code, therefore I am -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On 01/03/2014 08:49 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: 3. has images split out so we use colorclasses for the blue bits in the edc and the images that are blue are split into coloured layers and overlays for white/hilight etc. so blue can now be entirely varied just by colorclass changes Maybe not color classes, but still something that already works http://relighted.c0n.de/ -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
Re: [E-devel] Having dark/light concepts in the EFL
On 01/03/2014 01:22 PM, P Purkayastha wrote: On 01/03/2014 08:49 AM, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: 3. has images split out so we use colorclasses for the blue bits in the edc and the images that are blue are split into coloured layers and overlays for white/hilight etc. so blue can now be entirely varied just by colorclass changes Maybe not color classes, but still something that already works http://relighted.c0n.de/ That only changes the blue color, i'm going to work on a adaptation that can change the shelf/border/efm/app background, i think thats what they are looking for here -- Rapidly troubleshoot problems before they affect your business. Most IT organizations don't have a clear picture of how application performance affects their revenue. With AppDynamics, you get 100% visibility into your Java,.NET, PHP application. Start your 15-day FREE TRIAL of AppDynamics Pro! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=84349831iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
