Re: [e-users] enlightenment and powertop
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:23:33 + (UTC) Alec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > babbled: > > I've been using powertop to reduce the number of wakeups on my laptop, and currently enlightenment is top of the list at around 4 per second. >>> AFIAK there aren't any patches floating around, but you can change polling >>> intevals for modules and tweak the configs, closing all the windows etc. >>> >> Yup, I only have the pager module enabled, no activity and no windows aside >> from the powertop xterm. >> >> >>> I think the 3rd party net/wlan modules caused a lot more wakes than just >>> 4... I'm not sure how low you can go, since I can't see less than 61 wakes >>> from the radeon driver, but with e17 idle in xorg, I get 99% of the time >>> in C3. >>> >> True, the ipw2100 and the usb mouse cause ~4/sec each and prevent the kernel >> from reaching C3. With both of these gone and NoDRI for the radeon driver, I >> can get the kernel into C3 state most of the time with ~6-8 wakeups/sec. Of >> this, e17 is 4/sec, hence it would be nice to find the culprit and (if >> possible) remove it. >> > > if the mouse causes 4 interrupts/sec - this probably cause mouse events? thus > x > wakeups and then e wakeups to get the events. > > those 4 could be: > > 1. something polling - what, i don't know, but you will need to strace and/or > debug and find out. as already pointed out some modules like to poll - but > most > of them its in the 1 per second or multiple seconds between polls (except > cpufreq. > 2. it could be the result of an x client changing a property etc etc. like a > titlebar etc. see #1 - need to debug. > 3. every 10 secs e pings x clients to see if they are alive if they say they > do > the netwm ping protocol, but if you have enough windows these pings won't > happen at the same time so they will be spread out based on when the window > came up. > > Would it make sense to just have e ping all windows at the same time. This would mean that a new window might not get pinged for almost 20s, but is that so bad. I think as soon as one has a large amount of windows open (which I have all the time, hell why not use all those virtual desktops :)) this method would be better even if the polling was reduced to 5s. I don't know how feasible this is and I know you have a lot more important things on your plate it's just an idea. > i share your desire to reduce this, though 4/sec is really minimal when you > think about it :) > > I agree. Sony disables the hpet timer in bios and don't put an option in to enable it. I have ~ 100 wakeups/s just caused by the kernel because of this. The Sony bios really sucks. They have a bloody option to enable/disable a bios splash screen, but both hpet and virualization support are disabled and no way of enabling them. This is on an vaio sz, so their business line laptops. Jochen - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] enlightenment and powertop
> if the mouse causes 4 interrupts/sec - this probably cause mouse events? > thus x wakeups and then e wakeups to get the events. Nope, the 4/sec are just the usb hcd polling. When I move the mouse, or use the trackpoint, then I get a ton of wakeups. Also, the X wakeups are usually around 1/sec in idle, which implies that it's not pass-through X-events that are triggering it. > 1. something polling - what, i don't know, but you will need to strace > and/or debug and find out. Yeah, I started to use strace and there were a bunch of select() which probably are the cause. There was some mention of a similar problem with WindowMaker, so I'll look into that patch to see what was done to eliminate those wakeups. > i share your desire to reduce this, though 4/sec is really minimal when you > think about it :) It remains to be determined if it makes any real difference, but so far powertop has been pretty effective at reducing the power consumption of my thinkpad, so we'll see... Alec - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] enlightenment and powertop
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:23:33 + (UTC) Alec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled: > >> I've been using powertop to reduce the number of wakeups on my laptop, > >> and currently enlightenment is top of the list at around 4 per second. > > > AFIAK there aren't any patches floating around, but you can change polling > > intevals for modules and tweak the configs, closing all the windows etc. > > Yup, I only have the pager module enabled, no activity and no windows aside > from the powertop xterm. > > > I think the 3rd party net/wlan modules caused a lot more wakes than just > > 4... I'm not sure how low you can go, since I can't see less than 61 wakes > > from the radeon driver, but with e17 idle in xorg, I get 99% of the time > > in C3. > > True, the ipw2100 and the usb mouse cause ~4/sec each and prevent the kernel > from reaching C3. With both of these gone and NoDRI for the radeon driver, I > can get the kernel into C3 state most of the time with ~6-8 wakeups/sec. Of > this, e17 is 4/sec, hence it would be nice to find the culprit and (if > possible) remove it. if the mouse causes 4 interrupts/sec - this probably cause mouse events? thus x wakeups and then e wakeups to get the events. those 4 could be: 1. something polling - what, i don't know, but you will need to strace and/or debug and find out. as already pointed out some modules like to poll - but most of them its in the 1 per second or multiple seconds between polls (except cpufreq. 2. it could be the result of an x client changing a property etc etc. like a titlebar etc. see #1 - need to debug. 3. every 10 secs e pings x clients to see if they are alive if they say they do the netwm ping protocol, but if you have enough windows these pings won't happen at the same time so they will be spread out based on when the window came up. i share your desire to reduce this, though 4/sec is really minimal when you think about it :) > Regards, > > Alec > > > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > ___ > enlightenment-users mailing list > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)[EMAIL PROTECTED] 裸好多 Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本) - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] enlightenment and powertop
>> I've been using powertop to reduce the number of wakeups on my laptop, >> and currently enlightenment is top of the list at around 4 per second. > AFIAK there aren't any patches floating around, but you can change polling > intevals for modules and tweak the configs, closing all the windows etc. Yup, I only have the pager module enabled, no activity and no windows aside from the powertop xterm. > I think the 3rd party net/wlan modules caused a lot more wakes than just > 4... I'm not sure how low you can go, since I can't see less than 61 wakes > from the radeon driver, but with e17 idle in xorg, I get 99% of the time > in C3. True, the ipw2100 and the usb mouse cause ~4/sec each and prevent the kernel from reaching C3. With both of these gone and NoDRI for the radeon driver, I can get the kernel into C3 state most of the time with ~6-8 wakeups/sec. Of this, e17 is 4/sec, hence it would be nice to find the culprit and (if possible) remove it. Regards, Alec - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] enlightenment and powertop
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 22:11:51 -0500, Alec Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > I've been using powertop to reduce the number of wakeups on my laptop, > and > currently enlightenment is top of the list at around 4 per second. Is > there a > setting to reduce this, or failing that, a patch floating around? > Regards, > Alec AFIAK there aren't any patches floating around, but you can change polling intevals for modules and tweak the configs, closing all the windows etc. I think the 3rd party net/wlan modules caused a lot more wakes than just 4. I'm not sure how low you can go, since I can't see less than 61 wakes from the radeon driver, but with e17 idle in xorg, I get 99% of the time in C3. On my system, there are a lot of things waking below e17 which quickly adds beyond the 2-5 polls/sec I get from e, giving a much less marginal benefit. --Kent - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] dr 16.7 plus engage
> Ok, now it's clear, take a look to the 'apt-cache show', follow my > sources.list: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] $ apt-cache show kooldock > Package: kooldock > Priority: optional > Section: universe/kde<- *** LOOK *** > Installed-Size: 964 > Maintainer: Claudio Moratti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Architecture: i386 > Version: 0.3-1ubuntu2 > > *** LOOK *** Depends: kdelibs4c2a (>= 4:3.5.3-1), libacl1 (>= 2.2.11-1), > libart-2.0-2 (>= 2.3.16), libattr1 (>= 2.4.4-1), libaudio2, libc6 (>= 2.4-1), > libfontconfig1 (>= 2.3.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.0), > libice6, libidn11 (>= 0.5.18), libjpeg62, libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.8rel), > libqt3-mt (>= 3:3.3.6), libsm6, libstdc++6 (>= 4.1.0), libx11-6, libxcursor1 > (>> 1.1.2), libxext6, libxft2 (>> 2.1.1), libxi6, libxinerama1, libxrandr2, > libxrender1, libxt6, zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1) > Filename: pool/universe/k/kooldock/kooldock_0.3-1ubuntu2_i386.deb > Size: 534008 > MD5sum: b69868485a21c42f842fcf9bbfb8f297 > SHA1: 9211407af546a9f3f27eef26db41b9324bb9f647 > SHA256: f1b8d517628a47e96f0bc33a1dc39427cd16804ebc2462cab03e21e1572b32db > Description: Dock for KDE with cool visual enhancements > KoolDock is a fork of the original work of Dang Viet Dung, > KSmoothDock 2.1. KoolDock is a dock for KDE with cool > visual enhancements and effects. > . > Some of it features are: > * Display quick launchers to your favourite apps > * A builtin task bar > * Pager and clock. (Not done yet) > * Smooth zooming effect (like Apple's OS X dock) > * Transparent Background > . > Homepage: http://ktown.kde.cl/kooldock/ > Bugs: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Origin: Ubuntu > > My repos: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] $ cat /etc/apt/sources.list > deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty main restricted > deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty main restricted > deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-updates main restricted > deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-updates main restricted > deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty universe > deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty universe > deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty multiverse > deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty multiverse > deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-backports main restricted > universe multiverse > deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-backports main > restricted universe multiverse > deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security main restricted > deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security main restricted > deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security universe > deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security universe > deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security multiverse > deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security multiverse > > So, i think you should enable "universe" repository, of course it's a little > "forced", otherwise read kooldock dependencies as i posted for you, and try > to manually resolve them. > Good job! I'm here if you need other infos. :-) > Bye > Thanks, I thing i'll handle it manually. It looks I only need to update few libraries, namely libattr1/etch uptodate 2.4.32-1 libc6/etch uptodate 2.3.6.ds1-13 libxext6/etch uptodate 1:1.0.1-2 (these are the versions I currently have installed) Thanks a bunch Kuba - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] dr 16.7 plus engage
> > > >I would, but... > > > >$ apt-cache search kooldock > > > > > >... no such app in my repos: > > > >$ cat /etc/apt/sources.lis > > > > deb ftp://ftp.task.gda.pl/debian/ etch main contrib non-free > > deb-src ftp://ftp.task.gda.pl/debian/ etch main contrib non-free > > deb http://security.debian.org/ etch/updates main contrib > > deb-src http://security.debian.org/ etch/updates main contrib > > > > deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ etch main > > > >when I search the package contents on line at debian.org for the > >kooldock also with no results > > > >;) > > > >chears > >kuba > Ok, now it's clear, take a look to the 'apt-cache show', follow my sources.list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] $ apt-cache show kooldock Package: kooldock Priority: optional Section: universe/kde<- *** LOOK *** Installed-Size: 964 Maintainer: Claudio Moratti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Architecture: i386 Version: 0.3-1ubuntu2 > *** LOOK *** Depends: kdelibs4c2a (>= 4:3.5.3-1), libacl1 (>= 2.2.11-1), libart-2.0-2 (>= 2.3.16), libattr1 (>= 2.4.4-1), libaudio2, libc6 (>= 2.4-1), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.3.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2), libgcc1 (>= 1:4.1.0), libice6, libidn11 (>= 0.5.18), libjpeg62, libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.8rel), libqt3-mt (>= 3:3.3.6), libsm6, libstdc++6 (>= 4.1.0), libx11-6, libxcursor1 (>> 1.1.2), libxext6, libxft2 (>> 2.1.1), libxi6, libxinerama1, libxrandr2, libxrender1, libxt6, zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1) Filename: pool/universe/k/kooldock/kooldock_0.3-1ubuntu2_i386.deb Size: 534008 MD5sum: b69868485a21c42f842fcf9bbfb8f297 SHA1: 9211407af546a9f3f27eef26db41b9324bb9f647 SHA256: f1b8d517628a47e96f0bc33a1dc39427cd16804ebc2462cab03e21e1572b32db Description: Dock for KDE with cool visual enhancements KoolDock is a fork of the original work of Dang Viet Dung, KSmoothDock 2.1. KoolDock is a dock for KDE with cool visual enhancements and effects. . Some of it features are: * Display quick launchers to your favourite apps * A builtin task bar * Pager and clock. (Not done yet) * Smooth zooming effect (like Apple's OS X dock) * Transparent Background . Homepage: http://ktown.kde.cl/kooldock/ Bugs: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Origin: Ubuntu My repos: [EMAIL PROTECTED] $ cat /etc/apt/sources.list deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty main restricted deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty main restricted deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-updates main restricted deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-updates main restricted deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty universe deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty universe deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty multiverse deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty multiverse deb http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-backports main restricted universe multiverse deb-src http://it.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-backports main restricted universe multiverse deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security main restricted deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security main restricted deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security universe deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security universe deb http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security multiverse deb-src http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ feisty-security multiverse So, i think you should enable "universe" repository, of course it's a little "forced", otherwise read kooldock dependencies as i posted for you, and try to manually resolve them. Good job! I'm here if you need other infos. :-) Bye -- .::. In Code We Trust .::. .::. Linux User #373781 .::. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] dr 16.7 plus engage
tony oliveri napisał(a): >> >> > mmm... > Sorry, but if you try with 'apt-get install kooldock', apt would be > calculate automatically all dependencies, and it will install them for > you... > Otherwise, try with synaptic (or similar), search all dependencies, and fix > them. > It's recommended to use this tools, make our life easier. ;-) > I would, but... $ apt-cache search kooldock $ ... no such app in my repos: $ cat /etc/apt/sources.lis deb ftp://ftp.task.gda.pl/debian/ etch main contrib non-free deb-src ftp://ftp.task.gda.pl/debian/ etch main contrib non-free deb http://security.debian.org/ etch/updates main contrib deb-src http://security.debian.org/ etch/updates main contrib deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ etch main when I search the package contents on line at debian.org for the kooldock also with no results ;) chears kuba - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
[e-users] enlightenment and powertop
Hi, I've been using powertop to reduce the number of wakeups on my laptop, and currently enlightenment is top of the list at around 4 per second. Is there a setting to reduce this, or failing that, a patch floating around? Regards, Alec - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] dr 16.7 plus engage
2007/6/19, Jakub Narojczyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > What do you think about "kooldock"? > > Of course, it's related to Kde libs, but i'm using it from a few time, > and > > works fine. > > I've installed it 'cause i can't get composite extension with DRI, and > > engage too (i've an integrated ATI Xpress 200M). :-\ > > I think it's very similar to engage... > > Best regards. > > root66 > > > > I thought I'd give it a try but after installing deb from > sourceforge.net i got: > $ kooldock > kooldock: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found > (required by kooldock) > > I'll try to fix it but I'm a little irritated that on the project site > there isn't any thing about dependecies > > regards > kuba > > mmm... Sorry, but if you try with 'apt-get install kooldock', apt would be calculate automatically all dependencies, and it will install them for you... Otherwise, try with synaptic (or similar), search all dependencies, and fix them. It's recommended to use this tools, make our life easier. ;-) -- .::. In Code We Trust .::. .::. Linux User #373781 .::. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] dr 16.7 plus engage
> What do you think about "kooldock"? > Of course, it's related to Kde libs, but i'm using it from a few time, and > works fine. > I've installed it 'cause i can't get composite extension with DRI, and > engage too (i've an integrated ATI Xpress 200M). :-\ > I think it's very similar to engage... > Best regards. > root66 > I thought I'd give it a try but after installing deb from sourceforge.net i got: $ kooldock kooldock: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.4' not found (required by kooldock) I'll try to fix it but I'm a little irritated that on the project site there isn't any thing about dependecies regards kuba - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] dr 16.7 plus engage
2007/6/19, Jakub Narojczyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Yes I found the key for edevelop, apt-get update works fine, no errors, > > fetches the package lists correctly. But when I try to for instance > > upgrade enlightenment form 16.7 to 16.9 I can't. > > apt-cache show enlightenment shows version 16.7 (standard debian > package) > > If y try to install engage (for instance) I get lots of broken > > dependecies (can't paste the masage, right now i'm at work) > > When I view the edevelop repo with firefox and enter the directory with > > packages, it is empty (no *.deb) > > regards > Kuba > What do you think about "kooldock"? Of course, it's related to Kde libs, but i'm using it from a few time, and works fine. I've installed it 'cause i can't get composite extension with DRI, and engage too (i've an integrated ATI Xpress 200M). :-\ I think it's very similar to engage... Best regards. root66 -- .::. In Code We Trust .::. .::. Linux User #373781 .::. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
Re: [e-users] dr 16.7 plus engage
Jochen Schroeder napisał(a): > They are working fine here (debian SID). What does apt say when you do > an apt-get update? With respect to the public key, I think if you search > the forums on edevelop you'll find a link. > > Cheers > Jochen > Yes I found the key for edevelop, apt-get update works fine, no errors, fetches the package lists correctly. But when I try to for instance upgrade enlightenment form 16.7 to 16.9 I can't. apt-cache show enlightenment shows version 16.7 (standard debian package) If y try to install engage (for instance) I get lots of broken dependecies (can't paste the masage, right now i'm at work) When I view the edevelop repo with firefox and enter the directory with packages, it is empty (no *.deb) regards Kuba - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
