Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[The Rasterman]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 08:53:46 -0700 Marc MERLIN  said:

> Thanks for your answers
> 
> On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 10:34:21PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > just saying that not every bug that happens because you run e is an e bug.
> > there are definitely bugs that e has. there are ones that are "wm and client
> > disagree" and those are tough, and those where "client is just dead wrong
> > but in the end everyone blames the wm so we have to figure out a work
> > around in the end". :) in the past few years chrome has actually been one
> > of the problem clients. most others work just fine. :)
> 
> I'll start with this one. Sorry if I implied otherwise. Yes, I totally agree
> here. Sadly when I'm not running the WM that most are, software does grow
> bugs due to lack of testing against alternative WMs and as you say it's not
> always that other WM's fault.

i actually am saying that it's not always actually sensible or possible for us
to fix everything. yes. i guess we could start building our own chromium src
trees (which take a lot longer than efl + e and require crazy amounts of ram i
actually don't even have on the workstation i have most of the day - it has
only 4g ram... a build there would take days if not a week or 2 due to
thrashing swap off a hdd)...  finding the bug in that codebase would be a major
time sink of epic proportions... or maybe not finding the bug but finding the
logic chain that interacts badly ... :( either way... not practical. :(

the alt+e thing i just don't see... not sure what to say... :( can't hunt
something i can't reproduce... :/ maybe i need more details on how to reproduce
it.

> > t_unix provided a modmap file i tried and there is an issue - but it's on
> > the xserver side. every hangs for about 5-10sec when running xmodmap and e
> > is getting hung in XGrabKey calls when it ungrabs and re-grabs all its
> > bindings when a kbd layout change event happened. the grabs are taking an
> > eternity inside the xserver (xlib is waiting for a reply from x). this is
> > definitely some server-side issue.
>  
> I've seen that too, but that's a different issue and a one time deal.
> What I had when I tried the latest E was E grinding to a halt after I
> entered my first é, and not before.
> Sadly, upgrading/downgrading is a pretty expensive operation on my laptop
> (including cleanups), so I don't get to try this very often. Last time, it
> took me hours to downgrade everything so that I could work again, so after
> that I'm gun shy for a while about try again since what I have works, and
> I'm supposed to spend my hours on actually doing things, not
> upgrading/downgrading software :)

i'll suggest a very easy way to do this. if i ever have to build/test against
old versions of efl and/or e i:

1. recompile efl+e with --prefix=/opt/e (or some specific separated prefix).
2. i set LD_LIBRARY_PATH, PATH PKG_CONFIG_PATH to ensure /opt/e/... are
preferred.
3. i ALSO mkdir ~/T; export HOME=$HOME/T; cd $HOME

then i run everything from that shell. it could be a login script (~/.xsession
for example)( that does this. when my testing is over i comment out those lines
in my login script and can go back to where i was... :)

> > :) the best i can advise is "stay up to date and help us sort out issues".
> > downgrading doesn't help things get sorted out. :( the altgr+e - i cant see.
> > things are working fine for me... but there is a pause issue and i dig in
> > and e basically sits forever in every XGrabButton xlib call waiting for the
> > xserver to respond... :(
> 
> On the E side, you are correct, but I honeslty don't have the time.
> Sometimes I just need things to work. I go through the pain of upgrading and
> dealing with yet a new round of breakage (and I don't mean that for E, but
> in general), but not very often both due to the pain and the time it drains
> every time :(
> 
> > > Correct. That bug has been around in E for quite a while now, although
> > > chrome might be partially to blame, but with older E it never happens.
> > 
> > well it's not e grabbing the mouse... :) and it's not e responding to the
> > events. e will not be grabbing anything. at most it's just hearing the click
> > then either doing an allow events or not. any grab at this point is a grab
> > done by chromium... and it's not releasing... :)
>  
> Correct. Sorry if I'm using the wrong terminology.
> 
> > > Ah yes, I had this too, but again only with more recent E.
> > 
> > happened in gnome too. but it was chromium deadlocking ITSELF... it should
> > just not do that. likely someone assuming a specific order of events that
> > wasn't actually guaranteed and some wm's re-ordered them or dropped some as
> > they were allowed to... that's my guess.
>  
> Glad to hear it happened elsewhere too and they fixed it then.
> 
> I may try E again later in the future, just when my plate of stuff to do is
> a bit lighter, and I can afford the multiplle hours of aftermath that often
> happens :-/

Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

Thanks for your answers

On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 10:34:21PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> just saying that not every bug that happens because you run e is an e bug.
> there are definitely bugs that e has. there are ones that are "wm and client
> disagree" and those are tough, and those where "client is just dead wrong but
> in the end everyone blames the wm so we have to figure out a work around in 
> the
> end". :) in the past few years chrome has actually been one of the problem
> clients. most others work just fine. :)

I'll start with this one. Sorry if I implied otherwise. Yes, I totally agree
here. Sadly when I'm not running the WM that most are, software does grow
bugs due to lack of testing against alternative WMs and as you say it's not
always that other WM's fault.

> t_unix provided a modmap file i tried and there is an issue - but it's on the
> xserver side. every hangs for about 5-10sec when running xmodmap and e is
> getting hung in XGrabKey calls when it ungrabs and re-grabs all its bindings
> when a kbd layout change event happened. the grabs are taking an eternity
> inside the xserver (xlib is waiting for a reply from x). this is definitely
> some server-side issue.
 
I've seen that too, but that's a different issue and a one time deal.
What I had when I tried the latest E was E grinding to a halt after I
entered my first é, and not before.
Sadly, upgrading/downgrading is a pretty expensive operation on my laptop
(including cleanups), so I don't get to try this very often. Last time, it
took me hours to downgrade everything so that I could work again, so after
that I'm gun shy for a while about try again since what I have works, and
I'm supposed to spend my hours on actually doing things, not
upgrading/downgrading software :)

> :) the best i can advise is "stay up to date and help us sort out issues".
> downgrading doesn't help things get sorted out. :( the altgr+e - i cant see.
> things are working fine for me... but there is a pause issue and i dig in and 
> e
> basically sits forever in every XGrabButton xlib call waiting for the xserver
> to respond... :(

On the E side, you are correct, but I honeslty don't have the time.
Sometimes I just need things to work. I go through the pain of upgrading and
dealing with yet a new round of breakage (and I don't mean that for E, but
in general), but not very often both due to the pain and the time it drains
every time :(

> > Correct. That bug has been around in E for quite a while now, although
> > chrome might be partially to blame, but with older E it never happens.
> 
> well it's not e grabbing the mouse... :) and it's not e responding to the
> events. e will not be grabbing anything. at most it's just hearing the click
> then either doing an allow events or not. any grab at this point is a grab 
> done
> by chromium... and it's not releasing... :)
 
Correct. Sorry if I'm using the wrong terminology.

> > Ah yes, I had this too, but again only with more recent E.
> 
> happened in gnome too. but it was chromium deadlocking ITSELF... it should 
> just
> not do that. likely someone assuming a specific order of events that wasn't
> actually guaranteed and some wm's re-ordered them or dropped some as they were
> allowed to... that's my guess.
 
Glad to hear it happened elsewhere too and they fixed it then.

I may try E again later in the future, just when my plate of stuff to do is
a bit lighter, and I can afford the multiplle hours of aftermath that often
happens :-/

Best,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  

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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[The Rasterman]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 07:54:12 -0700 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 08:59:44AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > Right, but if you're going to try and tell me that I should stop using
> > > the way I've been typing for 20 years, you're not going to win :)
> > 
> > just saying... works fine for me... standard french layout doesn't do alt+e
> > = é ...
> > 
> > i can only imagine the xkb settings e configures somehow conflict with your
> > custom modmap stuff and you then need to do it entirely yourself. check "do
> > not apply any keyboard settings ever" and then entirely do everything via
> > custom xmodmap files and so on.
>  
> Right, it's just that the E I tried in debian-unstable went into some bad
> CPU loop if I used right alt + e.
> Reverting to old E made this go away.
> It's definitely doing something wrong.
> Did you want my Xmodmap again to try it out?

t_unix provided a modmap file i tried and there is an issue - but it's on the
xserver side. every hangs for about 5-10sec when running xmodmap and e is
getting hung in XGrabKey calls when it ungrabs and re-grabs all its bindings
when a kbd layout change event happened. the grabs are taking an eternity
inside the xserver (xlib is waiting for a reply from x). this is definitely
some server-side issue.

i can't see any issue with his modmap ant alt+e causing anything with e... :/
but the setup of the modmap is horribly slow.

> > > I have a slghtly newer one at work, and it's terrible with google chrome
> > > each time I try to rip out a tab from google chrome, it gets stuck to my
> > > mouse pointer and it's very hard to "re-deposit" as a standalone window.
> > 
> > the window keeps following your mouse even though you released the mouse
> > button?
>  
> Correct. That bug has been around in E for quite a while now, although
> chrome might be partially to blame, but with older E it never happens.

well it's not e grabbing the mouse... :) and it's not e responding to the
events. e will not be grabbing anything. at most it's just hearing the click
then either doing an allow events or not. any grab at this point is a grab done
by chromium... and it's not releasing... :)

> Fix: Ctrl+T forces that sticky chrome window stuck to my mouse pointer, to
> open a new tab, and then things fix themselves.

as best i can imagine it's chromium holding onto a grab. it's likely relying on
or ASSUMING specific behaviour... and of course only tested on a few wm's... i
don't know. but what it is doing is definitely getting into territory where
you have to be SUPER careful... as you have an implicit mouse grab already on
the original window before the tear-off happened.  maybe it got some mouse
leave event and thus it forgot about its grab? i don't know... but here the
ball is in chromium's ballcourt to get it right... it's getting the mouse move
events... i find it rather bizarre that it wouldn't get the mouse release...
and if it doesn't that's not actually up to E as events go directly to the
client... so i am just imagining it's something like an implicit mouse leave or
maybe loss of focus or something that causes the chromium code to then just
ignore the mouse release ... because if it's getting the moves it most
definitely *SHOULD* get the release...

> > > Kind of sad that upgrading e has been so painful each time I've tried
> > > :-/
> > 
> > trust me. chromium has also had very painful points. especially the move to
> > aurora - lots of stuff broke. input methods didn't work for maybe 1-2
> > years... all of that disappeared... the "gtk theme mimicking" still looks
> > like junk ... it was decent until aurora... chromium would literally
> > hard-lock/deadlock itself when displaying tooltips - beats me why, both in
> > e and in gnome
> 
> Ah yes, I had this too, but again only with more recent E.

happened in gnome too. but it was chromium deadlocking ITSELF... it should just
not do that. likely someone assuming a specific order of events that wasn't
actually guaranteed and some wm's re-ordered them or dropped some as they were
allowed to... that's my guess.

> Downgrading E made this problem go away too.
> Definitely an interaction between the 2.

yup. but this is similar to the tearing off issue i bet...

just saying that not every bug that happens because you run e is an e bug.
there are definitely bugs that e has. there are ones that are "wm and client
disagree" and those are tough, and those where "client is just dead wrong but
in the end everyone blames the wm so we have to figure out a work around in the
end". :) in the past few years chrome has actually been one of the problem
clients. most others work just fine. :)

> > for ges. but it was an internal deadlock and no app should deadlock just
> > due to some ordering of events due to how a wm may or may not be managing
> > windows. still no idea why. it's stopped... but it should never have
> > happened.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> > welcome to the software world where 

Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 08:59:44AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > Right, but if you're going to try and tell me that I should stop using
> > the way I've been typing for 20 years, you're not going to win :)
> 
> just saying... works fine for me... standard french layout doesn't do alt+e =
> é ...
> 
> i can only imagine the xkb settings e configures somehow conflict with your
> custom modmap stuff and you then need to do it entirely yourself. check "do
> not apply any keyboard settings ever" and then entirely do everything via
> custom xmodmap files and so on.
 
Right, it's just that the E I tried in debian-unstable went into some bad
CPU loop if I used right alt + e.
Reverting to old E made this go away.
It's definitely doing something wrong.
Did you want my Xmodmap again to try it out?

> > I have a slghtly newer one at work, and it's terrible with google chrome
> > each time I try to rip out a tab from google chrome, it gets stuck to my
> > mouse pointer and it's very hard to "re-deposit" as a standalone window.
> 
> the window keeps following your mouse even though you released the mouse 
> button?
 
Correct. That bug has been around in E for quite a while now, although
chrome might be partially to blame, but with older E it never happens.

Fix: Ctrl+T forces that sticky chrome window stuck to my mouse pointer, to
open a new tab, and then things fix themselves.

> > Kind of sad that upgrading e has been so painful each time I've tried
> > :-/
> 
> trust me. chromium has also had very painful points. especially the move to
> aurora - lots of stuff broke. input methods didn't work for maybe 1-2 years...
> all of that disappeared... the "gtk theme mimicking" still looks like junk ...
> it was decent until aurora... chromium would literally hard-lock/deadlock
> itself when displaying tooltips - beats me why, both in e and in gnome

Ah yes, I had this too, but again only with more recent E.
Downgrading E made this problem go away too.
Definitely an interaction between the 2.

> for ges. but it was an internal deadlock and no app should deadlock just
> due to some ordering of events due to how a wm may or may not be managing
> windows. still no idea why. it's stopped... but it should never have happened.

Agreed.

> welcome to the software world where everyone creates pain and it's worse when
> developers don't test together.

True :)

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  

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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 06:46:36 -0700 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 03:55:13PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > 
> > > So, you can type e, then you type right alt + e, and get é, and when you
> > > release right alt, do you get e again?
> > 
> > i never have used this... i just use compose sequences.
> > 
> > milti_key + e + ' = é :) awesome thing is it works for just about
> > everything. milti + o + " = ö, multi + t + m = ™, multi + ( + c = © ...
> > 
> > it saves having weird kbd setups... :)
> 
> Right, but if you're going to try and tell me that I should stop using
> the way I've been typing for 20 years, you're not going to win :)

just saying... works fine for me... standard french layout doesn't do alt+e =
é ...

i can only imagine the xkb settings e configures somehow conflict with your
custom modmap stuff and you then need to do it entirely yourself. check "do
not apply any keyboard settings ever" and then entirely do everything via
custom xmodmap files and so on.

so either go via the gui ... or go via your custom config files etc. - but not
both as they likely conflict. i never use modmap files. i used to to make caps
== multi key for compose. i just use the gui config in e.

> For what it's worth, my custom key mapping is faster than the default
> way, which is why I use it.
> If you only sometimes have to type é, no big deal, but if you have to
> type it multiple times per line, the compose way is ridiculously time
> consuming, which is why I don't use it.
> 
> Either way, I'm back to e 0.18.8, which is the last E that works for me
> :-/
> I have a slghtly newer one at work, and it's terrible with google chrome
> each time I try to rip out a tab from google chrome, it gets stuck to my
> mouse pointer and it's very hard to "re-deposit" as a standalone window.

the window keeps following your mouse even though you released the mouse button?

> Kind of sad that upgrading e has been so painful each time I've tried
> :-/

trust me. chromium has also had very painful points. especially the move to
aurora - lots of stuff broke. input methods didn't work for maybe 1-2 years...
all of that disappeared... the "gtk theme mimicking" still looks like junk ...
it was decent until aurora... chromium would literally hard-lock/deadlock
itself when displaying tooltips - beats me why, both in e and in gnome
for ges. but it was an internal deadlock and no app should deadlock just
due to some ordering of events due to how a wm may or may not be managing
windows. still no idea why. it's stopped... but it should never have happened.

welcome to the software world where everyone creates pain and it's worse when
developers don't test together.

> (and yes of course it works for you Raster, otherwise you wouldn't be
> releasing those builds :) ).

i am actually not releasing those builds...

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 03:55:13PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > 
> > So, you can type e, then you type right alt + e, and get é, and when you
> > release right alt, do you get e again?
> 
> i never have used this... i just use compose sequences.
> 
> milti_key + e + ' = é :) awesome thing is it works for just about everything.
> milti + o + " = ö, multi + t + m = ™, multi + ( + c = © ...
> 
> it saves having weird kbd setups... :)

Right, but if you're going to try and tell me that I should stop using
the way I've been typing for 20 years, you're not going to win :)

For what it's worth, my custom key mapping is faster than the default
way, which is why I use it.
If you only sometimes have to type é, no big deal, but if you have to
type it multiple times per line, the compose way is ridiculously time
consuming, which is why I don't use it.

Either way, I'm back to e 0.18.8, which is the last E that works for me
:-/
I have a slghtly newer one at work, and it's terrible with google chrome
each time I try to rip out a tab from google chrome, it gets stuck to my
mouse pointer and it's very hard to "re-deposit" as a standalone window.

Kind of sad that upgrading e has been so painful each time I've tried
:-/
(and yes of course it works for you Raster, otherwise you wouldn't be
releasing those builds :) ).

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[The Rasterman]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:44:52 -0800 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:05:16AM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 09:18:24AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 11:47:52AM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > > > Do you have old installations of EFL lying around?  This sounds like a
> > > > conflicting version of some library is being used.
> > >  
> > > I did have one, but think I had removed it.
> > > ii  efl1.10.2.b-1 amd64  efl
> > > I guess I can try again, but aren't library versions supposed to prevent
> > > the wrong library with the wrong symbols from being used should 2
> > > versions be installed at the same time?
> > 
> > Yes, but since all of the EFL releases have soname 1, they're
> > indistinguishable to the linker.  Raster's advice is always to remove
> > stray installations when mysterious crashes happen, and he's almost
> > always been right.
>  
> Mmmh, that's bad news. The whole point of sonames is to avoid all these
> problems and let the computer find them for you :(

yes... but invariably the "operator" of said machine has no clue :) (not saying
you do not marc :)). they install libA.so.1.3.4 in /opt/lib, 1.5.4
in /usr/local/lib and there's 1.2.1 in /usr/lib.

which gets used? QUICK! 99%+ of users can't tell. it may be LD_LIBRARY_PATH
(which the dont even know exists) setting it.. it could be /etc/ld.so.conf or
content of /etc/ld.so.conf.d/* ... because ALL of these are the same MAJOR so
version (so.1) and the symlinks are what cound here. the frist level with
major .so version.

ALL libs do this,. they are BACKWARDS compatible, but not FORWARDS. that measn
1.5.4 is compatible with apps built against 1.5.3, 1.5,3, 1.4.4, 1.4.0, 1.3,
1.2, 1.1 and 1.0 ... so you can UPGRADE your lib... without fear.but
downgrading you cannot.

if you now spread these versions across directories then which of the libA.so.1
symlinks will be used? yes. a skilled person who knows their system well can do
it.

but the GENERAL advice is "don't do this".

now it's even more fun if you have multiple HEADERS installed like
in /usr/local/include, /usr/include, /opt/include etc... and when a binary
builds it uses headers in dir A (eg a newer version) but at RUNTIME links
against an older binary and so on... or more.

just in general - keep things simple and in one place and these issues do not
happen. spread your stuff around different locations and "your problem
buddy." :)

this is not just efl. its gtk, glib, libjpeg, libpng, pretty much every shared
lib will do what efl does. be backwards compatible to binaries linked to older
versions...

> It's a bit like saying "oh, you tried to upgrade, yeah, that's kind of
> risky, it's always better to wipe and re-install from scratch".
> Not blaming you for the message, clearly it's the correct state of
> affairs, just complaining that it shouldn't be :)

upgrading works just fine. i do it many many many times a day. rebuild efl
with newer stuff on a system with existing efl... but i do it in the SAME place
every time (excetp some exceptions where i carefully carve out a test area
like /opt/e or /opt/efl or /opt/efl17 etc.) and set things up to test there...

it works. but dont go havnig it installed in multiple prefixes and have them
all available at all times and not know EXACTLY what you are doing... :)

i know YOU can do this though...

> > > If you install and load the .Xmodmap attached, does enlightenment work
> > > ok for you?
> > > Can you type right alt e and get é, and then things work ok afterwards?
> > > ( xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap )
> > 
> > Worked for me - I don't understand how mode switch works, so I couldn't
> > type i or e anymore, but that's probably my ignorance.  E didn't mind at
> > all, or even seem to notice.
> 
> So, you can type e, then you type right alt + e, and get é, and when you
> release right alt, do you get e again?

i never have used this... i just use compose sequences.

milti_key + e + ' = é :) awesome thing is it works for just about everything.
milti + o + " = ö, multi + t + m = ™, multi + ( + c = © ...

it saves having weird kbd setups... :)

> If you get é forever after typing right alt once (which indeed is what I
> saw), that's a showstopper bug that will stop me from upgrading.
> If you were stuck with typing é even though you weren't touching the alt
> key anymore, how did you recover?
> 
> > > Good guess, I do have a trackpoint (thinkpad)
> > > I am not going to tell you how stupid it is to change this suddenly since
> > > it's not E's fault, but this is ridiculous :( 
> > > (because you know, no one uses the middle button on linux)
> > 
> > I agree, it's a frustrating default for unix-like WM + trackpoint users.
> > libinput expects the desktop env to give the user config control for the
> > input devices.  In Gnome, you'd change the config for your trackpoint
> > once and be done with it.  E lacks that piece, so 

Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 06:54:20PM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:44:52AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > So, you can type e, then you type right alt + e, and get é, and when you
> > release right alt, do you get e again?
> > If you get é forever after typing right alt once (which indeed is what I
> > saw), that's a showstopper bug that will stop me from upgrading.
> 
> If I hold right alt and press e, I get "é".  If I then release right alt
> and press e, I get "e".  But, if I hold right alt and press e multiple
> times, the e key gets "stuck" to whichever choice I last released on.  I
> can fix by getting stuck on unadorned e.
> 
> That behavior is identical under fvwm.
 
Mmmh, so it may be an input library that e depends on and not e's fault
per se?
I reverted to e18, and right alt+e works fine for me again, as it has
for years.

> But - something about loading keymaps is confusing E in a bad way.
> While xmodmap runs, I see no screen updates.  Each time I run xmodmap,
> loading takes longer.  I get some errors like this:
> 
> ERR<2190>:ecore_x lib/ecore_x/xlib/ecore_x.c:305 _ecore_x_modifiers_get() 
> ALTGR conflicts with other modifiers. IGNORE ALTGR

That message I think is an expected warning, but e shouldn't hang of
course.

> > If you were stuck with typing é even though you weren't touching the alt
> > key anymore, how did you recover?
> 
> Just in case, I did "xmodmap -pke > ~/my.xmodmap" first, and then ran it
> out of my history.  Only need backspace to turn that into a load. :)

fair enough :)

Anyway, thanks much for the test. There clearly seems to be something
that broke, but we're not quite sure why, especially if it fails under
fvwm too for you (which is most puzzling)

Thanks,
Marc
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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Ross Vandegrift]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:44:52AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> So, you can type e, then you type right alt + e, and get é, and when you
> release right alt, do you get e again?
> If you get é forever after typing right alt once (which indeed is what I
> saw), that's a showstopper bug that will stop me from upgrading.

If I hold right alt and press e, I get "é".  If I then release right alt
and press e, I get "e".  But, if I hold right alt and press e multiple
times, the e key gets "stuck" to whichever choice I last released on.  I
can fix by getting stuck on unadorned e.

That behavior is identical under fvwm.

But - something about loading keymaps is confusing E in a bad way.
While xmodmap runs, I see no screen updates.  Each time I run xmodmap,
loading takes longer.  I get some errors like this:

ERR<2190>:ecore_x lib/ecore_x/xlib/ecore_x.c:305 _ecore_x_modifiers_get() ALTGR 
conflicts with other modifiers. IGNORE ALTGR

> If you were stuck with typing é even though you weren't touching the alt
> key anymore, how did you recover?

Just in case, I did "xmodmap -pke > ~/my.xmodmap" first, and then ran it
out of my history.  Only need backspace to turn that into a load. :)

Ross

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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Daniel Kasak]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 5:44 AM, Marc MERLIN  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:05:16AM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 09:18:24AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 11:47:52AM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > > > Do you have old installations of EFL lying around?  This sounds like
> a
> > > > conflicting version of some library is being used.
> > >
> > > I did have one, but think I had removed it.
> > > ii  efl1.10.2.b-1 amd64
> efl
> > > I guess I can try again, but aren't library versions supposed to
> prevent the
> > > wrong library with the wrong symbols from being used should 2 versions
> be
> > > installed at the same time?
> >
> > Yes, but since all of the EFL releases have soname 1, they're
> > indistinguishable to the linker.  Raster's advice is always to remove
> > stray installations when mysterious crashes happen, and he's almost
> > always been right.
>
> Mmmh, that's bad news. The whole point of sonames is to avoid all these
> problems and let the computer find them for you :(
> It's a bit like saying "oh, you tried to upgrade, yeah, that's kind of
> risky, it's always better to wipe and re-install from scratch".
> Not blaming you for the message, clearly it's the correct state of
> affairs, just complaining that it shouldn't be :)
>

I've used easy_efl.sh for years:
https://omicron.homeip.net/projects/#easy_e17_sh

It installs into /opt/efl and supports building custom apps/libs/whatever,
and using custom branches. If things get crashy, removing old libs is a
matter of:
rm -rf /opt/efl

 ... and rebuilding.

Dan
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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 10:05:16AM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 09:18:24AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 11:47:52AM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > > Do you have old installations of EFL lying around?  This sounds like a
> > > conflicting version of some library is being used.
> >  
> > I did have one, but think I had removed it.
> > ii  efl1.10.2.b-1 amd64  efl
> > I guess I can try again, but aren't library versions supposed to prevent the
> > wrong library with the wrong symbols from being used should 2 versions be
> > installed at the same time?
> 
> Yes, but since all of the EFL releases have soname 1, they're
> indistinguishable to the linker.  Raster's advice is always to remove
> stray installations when mysterious crashes happen, and he's almost
> always been right.
 
Mmmh, that's bad news. The whole point of sonames is to avoid all these
problems and let the computer find them for you :(
It's a bit like saying "oh, you tried to upgrade, yeah, that's kind of
risky, it's always better to wipe and re-install from scratch".
Not blaming you for the message, clearly it's the correct state of
affairs, just complaining that it shouldn't be :)

> > If you install and load the .Xmodmap attached, does enlightenment work
> > ok for you?
> > Can you type right alt e and get é, and then things work ok afterwards?
> > ( xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap )
> 
> Worked for me - I don't understand how mode switch works, so I couldn't
> type i or e anymore, but that's probably my ignorance.  E didn't mind at
> all, or even seem to notice.

So, you can type e, then you type right alt + e, and get é, and when you
release right alt, do you get e again?
If you get é forever after typing right alt once (which indeed is what I
saw), that's a showstopper bug that will stop me from upgrading.
If you were stuck with typing é even though you weren't touching the alt
key anymore, how did you recover?

> > Good guess, I do have a trackpoint (thinkpad)
> > I am not going to tell you how stupid it is to change this suddenly since
> > it's not E's fault, but this is ridiculous :( 
> > (because you know, no one uses the middle button on linux)
> 
> I agree, it's a frustrating default for unix-like WM + trackpoint users.
> libinput expects the desktop env to give the user config control for the
> input devices.  In Gnome, you'd change the config for your trackpoint
> once and be done with it.  E lacks that piece, so you gotta do it
> yourself.

Understood, thanks for that piece of info, I'd likely have had a hard
time finding it without your help.

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
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Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Ross Vandegrift]

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 09:18:24AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 11:47:52AM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > Do you have old installations of EFL lying around?  This sounds like a
> > conflicting version of some library is being used.
>  
> I did have one, but think I had removed it.
> ii  efl1.10.2.b-1 amd64  efl
> I guess I can try again, but aren't library versions supposed to prevent the
> wrong library with the wrong symbols from being used should 2 versions be
> installed at the same time?

Yes, but since all of the EFL releases have soname 1, they're
indistinguishable to the linker.  Raster's advice is always to remove
stray installations when mysterious crashes happen, and he's almost
always been right.

> If you install and load the .Xmodmap attached, does enlightenment work
> ok for you?
> Can you type right alt e and get é, and then things work ok afterwards?
> ( xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap )

Worked for me - I don't understand how mode switch works, so I couldn't
type i or e anymore, but that's probably my ignorance.  E didn't mind at
all, or even seem to notice.

> Good guess, I do have a trackpoint (thinkpad)
> I am not going to tell you how stupid it is to change this suddenly since
> it's not E's fault, but this is ridiculous :( 
> (because you know, no one uses the middle button on linux)

I agree, it's a frustrating default for unix-like WM + trackpoint users.
libinput expects the desktop env to give the user config control for the
input devices.  In Gnome, you'd change the config for your trackpoint
once and be done with it.  E lacks that piece, so you gotta do it
yourself.

Ross

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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 11:47:52AM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 11:46:37PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > But:
> > 1) it crashed every time I went to menu/windows
> > 
> > 2) the moment I typed right alt, I would be able to type é but then E
> > would go into a high CPU loop, right alt would never disable itself, and
> > I E would eventually become unusable
> 
> Do you have old installations of EFL lying around?  This sounds like a
> conflicting version of some library is being used.
 
I did have one, but think I had removed it.
ii  efl1.10.2.b-1 amd64  efl
I guess I can try again, but aren't library versions supposed to prevent the
wrong library with the wrong symbols from being used should 2 versions be
installed at the same time?

If you install and load the .Xmodmap attached, does enlightenment work
ok for you?
Can you type right alt e and get é, and then things work ok afterwards?
( xmodmap ~/.Xmodmap )

> > 3) my right mouse button stopped working the way it normally does
> > I usually do left alt + middle mouse button and resize the current
> > window by dragging the mouse and instead it would start rotating virtual
> > desktops
> > 
> > 4) middle mouse button on the desktop would not bring a menu popup
> > anymore.
> 
> Are you using a trackpoint?  Seems like scroll wheel emulation is
> enabled for your middle button.  A recent version of libinput made this
> the default.
 
Good guess, I do have a trackpoint (thinkpad)
I am not going to tell you how stupid it is to change this suddenly since
it's not E's fault, but this is ridiculous :( 
(because you know, no one uses the middle button on linux)

For now I'm back to
saruman:~$ xinput set-prop 12 "libinput Button Scrolling Button" 0
property 'libinput Button Scrolling Button' doesn't exist, you need to
specify its type and format
but that's likely because I downgraded everything back.

> To fix, you can disable the option.  E doesn't have a libinput config
> panel, but you can use xinput.  Find your pointer dev in "xinput" and:
> 
> $ xinput set-prop  "libinput Button Scrolling Button" 0

Thank you very much, that's very helpful.

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  
keycode  15 = 6 asciicircum dead_circumflex dead_circumflex
keycode  49 = grave asciitilde dead_grave dead_grave
keycode  48 = apostrophe quotedbl dead_acute dead_diaeresis

keycode  38 = a A agrave agrave acircumflex adiaeresis acircumflex adiaeresis
keycode  26 = e E eacute egrave ecircumflex ediaeresis ecircumflex ediaeresis
keycode  30 = u U ugrave ugrave ucircumflex udiaeresis ucircumflex udiaeresis
keycode  31 = i I icircumflex idiaeresis icircumflex idiaeresis icircumflex 
idiaeresis
keycode  32 = o O ocircumflex odiaeresis ocircumflex odiaeresis ocircumflex 
odiaeresis
keycode  54 = c C ccedilla ccedilla ccedilla ccedilla ccedilla ccedilla


!! Right Control Key default
!! keycode 109 = Control_R
!keycode 109 = Multi_key Control_R
! Does not seem to work on my Z61p
!keycode 109 = Multi_key 
keycode 105 = Multi_key 

!! Menu Key Default
keycode 135 = Menu NoSymbol Menu
!!keycode 135 = Multi_key

!! Right Alt Key default
!! keycode 108 = Alt_R Meta_R Alt_R Meta_R
! Mode_switch is needed for accents
! but it causes e18 to fail to use left alt, WTF?
!keycode 108 = Mode_switch Alt_R Meta_R
keycode 108 = Mode_switch

! which key is this?
!keycode 203 = Mode_switch NoSymbol Mode_switch NoSymbol Mode_switch Mode_switch
keycode 203 = NoSymbol
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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Ross Vandegrift]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 11:46:37PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> But:
> 1) it crashed every time I went to menu/windows
> 
> 2) the moment I typed right alt, I would be able to type é but then E
> would go into a high CPU loop, right alt would never disable itself, and
> I E would eventually become unusable

Do you have old installations of EFL lying around?  This sounds like a
conflicting version of some library is being used.

> 3) my right mouse button stopped working the way it normally does
> I usually do left alt + middle mouse button and resize the current
> window by dragging the mouse and instead it would start rotating virtual
> desktops
> 
> 4) middle mouse button on the desktop would not bring a menu popup
> anymore.

Are you using a trackpoint?  Seems like scroll wheel emulation is
enabled for your middle button.  A recent version of libinput made this
the default.

To fix, you can disable the option.  E doesn't have a libinput config
panel, but you can use xinput.  Find your pointer dev in "xinput" and:

$ xinput set-prop  "libinput Button Scrolling Button" 0

Ross

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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:52:55PM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 03:17:17PM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:21:22AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > So, is there a newer version with debian packages that is likely to fix
> > > my issues, or should I stay put?
> > 
> > Enlightenment 0.21.5 is available in experimental.  If you're running
> > stretch or sid, you can use those directly.  No backports for jessie or
> > earlier at this time.
> 
> Thanks.
> So before I go through the work of upgrading (with a downgrade being even
> more work), can you confirm that it has fixed the problems it had with
> google-chrome?
> No version of E I have tried after 0.18 works with chrome properly. Has this
> been found and fixed in 20 or 21?

All right, well, I tried enlightenment 0.21.5-1 from debian
experimental, and that was a small disaster. Took me 3H+ to downgrade
and recover :-/

So, it did actually play nice with google-chrome. I was finally able to
detach tabs from a window and attach them to another google-chrome
window.

But:
1) it crashed every time I went to menu/windows

2) the moment I typed right alt, I would be able to type é but then E
would go into a high CPU loop, right alt would never disable itself, and
I E would eventually become unusable

3) my right mouse button stopped working the way it normally does
I usually do left alt + middle mouse button and resize the current
window by dragging the mouse and instead it would start rotating virtual
desktops

4) middle mouse button on the desktop would not bring a menu popup
anymore.

There were other things that seemed wrong too, but that was enough
things broken that I reverted back to enlightenment 0.18.8-2, which took
a while since I also had to revert other dependencies that got pulled in
at the same time.

So it's definitely "experimental" as in "not usable at all" for me :(

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Wido]

I've been using Debian,  chrome and E for a long time and never had your
issue. At this moment, I'm running Debian stretch (testing) with chrome
beta and e from sparky repos (which usually are the official tgz, compiled)
and things work fine

El vie., 27 de ene. de 2017 08:16, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri <
barbi...@gmail.com> escribió:

> I tested this with Chromium 55.0.2883.87 (ArchLinux) and it works on
> Enlightenment from GIT (>0.21.3).
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:52 AM, Marc MERLIN  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 03:17:17PM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:21:22AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > > So, is there a newer version with debian packages that is likely to
> fix
> > > > my issues, or should I stay put?
> > >
> > > Enlightenment 0.21.5 is available in experimental.  If you're running
> > > stretch or sid, you can use those directly.  No backports for jessie or
> > > earlier at this time.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > So before I go through the work of upgrading (with a downgrade being even
> > more work), can you confirm that it has fixed the problems it had with
> > google-chrome?
> > No version of E I have tried after 0.18 works with chrome properly. Has
> > this
> > been found and fixed in 20 or 21?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Marc
> > --
> > "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" -
> > A.S.R.
> > Microsoft is to operating systems 
> >    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> > cooking
> > Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/
> >
> > 
> > --
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
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> --
> Mobile: +55 (16) 99354-9890
>
> --
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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

I tested this with Chromium 55.0.2883.87 (ArchLinux) and it works on
Enlightenment from GIT (>0.21.3).



On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:52 AM, Marc MERLIN  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 03:17:17PM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:21:22AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > So, is there a newer version with debian packages that is likely to fix
> > > my issues, or should I stay put?
> >
> > Enlightenment 0.21.5 is available in experimental.  If you're running
> > stretch or sid, you can use those directly.  No backports for jessie or
> > earlier at this time.
>
> Thanks.
> So before I go through the work of upgrading (with a downgrade being even
> more work), can you confirm that it has fixed the problems it had with
> google-chrome?
> No version of E I have tried after 0.18 works with chrome properly. Has
> this
> been found and fixed in 20 or 21?
>
> Thanks,
> Marc
> --
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" -
> A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking
> Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/
>
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>



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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 03:17:17PM -0500, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:21:22AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > So, is there a newer version with debian packages that is likely to fix
> > my issues, or should I stay put?
> 
> Enlightenment 0.21.5 is available in experimental.  If you're running
> stretch or sid, you can use those directly.  No backports for jessie or
> earlier at this time.

Thanks.
So before I go through the work of upgrading (with a downgrade being even
more work), can you confirm that it has fixed the problems it had with
google-chrome?
No version of E I have tried after 0.18 works with chrome properly. Has this
been found and fixed in 20 or 21?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
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Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  

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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Pierre Couderc]

This is very i,teresting. I suggest that you update : 
https://www.enlightenment.org/distros/debian-start about that !


On 01/26/2017 09:17 PM, Ross Vandegrift wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:21:22AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
>> So, is there a newer version with debian packages that is likely to fix
>> my issues, or should I stay put?
> Enlightenment 0.21.5 is available in experimental.  If you're running
> stretch or sid, you can use those directly.  No backports for jessie or
> earlier at this time.
>
> Info on experimental: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianExperimental
>
> Ross
>
> --
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Re: [e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Ross Vandegrift]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:21:22AM -0800, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> So, is there a newer version with debian packages that is likely to fix
> my issues, or should I stay put?

Enlightenment 0.21.5 is available in experimental.  If you're running
stretch or sid, you can use those directly.  No backports for jessie or
earlier at this time.

Info on experimental: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianExperimental

Ross

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[e-users] Is there a newer E that will play nice with google-chrome?

[Marc MERLIN]

I'm still stuck on enlightenment 0.18.8-2 (debian) and it seems to be
the last version that works with google chrome.

Taking a tab with google chrome and tearing it away from the main app
will (with newer E) cause the tab to get stuck to my mouse and not go
away unless I restart enlightenment to recover.
google-chrome does not have this problem with any other window manager,
or older enlightenments, so I'm assuming the problem is with E.

E 0.18 kind of still works for me, but then again also crashes once a
day on average (and then restarts with minimal fuss), which isn't
horrible, at the same time not very professional either.

Sadly I haven't had time to spend on debugging this, I kind of need a WM
that just works so that I can focus on the other things I'm supposed to
be doing :)

So, is there a newer version with debian packages that is likely to fix
my issues, or should I stay put?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
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Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ | PGP 1024R/763BE901

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