Re: styleguide sanity-check for tc39 language-proposals to address javascript-fatigue

2017-10-18 Thread Naveen Chawla 
I disagree that the language contributors should be involved in best
practice guidance. Patterns evolve over usage and experience with the
constructs. I bet the implementors of `&&` and `||` didn't necessarily
expect them to be used so effectively for non-boolean logic e.g. `car &&
car.drive()` instead of `if(car!==undefined) car.drive()` or whatever... Or
maybe they did. But the point is language usage is often a matter of
opinion and preference, and not something that should be set as a tide
against a possibly justifiable opposition. As a response to the original
question, I gave my opinion and reason in brackets. If the reader prefers a
different way for their own reasons, fine - I would just expect them to
give their own reasons for superseding my reasons...

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 at 14:34 Alexander Jones  wrote:

> The beauty of (coding) standards is that there are so many to choose from.
> :)
>
> IMO it’s a false dichotomy though. A respected and credible group of
> language contributors should pool some energy together and ratify some
> opinionated best practices, a la the C++ Core Guidelines and PEP-8. No,
> it’s not *necessary*—neither is the exponent operator—but it does have
> clear benefits.
>
> I believe most in the community would rather not have to sell things like
> “const by default” to their team members, when it could be “official”
> guidance instead. It’s energy we’d rather be spending on other things!
>
> Alex
>
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 at 06:59, Jordan Harband  wrote:
>
>> These questions have consumed programmers in most languages since
>> forever. It's not TC39's place to tell people how to write code - but
>> there's plenty of style guides that have answers to these questions.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:44 PM, kai zhu  wrote:
>>
>>> there are several factors for the current javascript-fatigue.  one
>>> factor which tc39 could help mitigate is to provide a narrative on how to
>>> consistently apply proposed language-features (over existing-practices and
>>> interfacing with legacy-code).
>>>
>>> i feel too many new and old javascript-programmers alike are unable to
>>> adopt a consistent programming-style for post-es5 features in
>>> production-code.  style-issues which are problematic when a project has to
>>> deal with legacy libraries include:
>>>
>>> - when is it appropriate to use callback vs promise vs async-generator
>>> vs async/await, when interfacing with legacy-code (aka
>>> context-switching-hell or baton-passing-hell)?
>>> - when is it appropriate to use var vs let, when interfacing with
>>> legacy-code?
>>> - when is it appropriate to use function vs fat-arrow, when interfacing
>>> with legacy-code?
>>> - how can we apply destructuring in a consistent and readable manner?
>>> - when is it appropriate to use (proposed) pipeline-operator, and when
>>> is it not?
>>>
>>> es6/es7/es8 introduces hundreds of these kinds of questions which
>>> distract us from actual coding and shipping features.
>>> ___
>>> es-discuss mailing list
>>> es-discuss@mozilla.org
>>> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> es-discuss mailing list
>> es-discuss@mozilla.org
>> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>
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Re: styleguide sanity-check for tc39 language-proposals to address javascript-fatigue

2017-10-18 Thread Alexander Jones 
The beauty of (coding) standards is that there are so many to choose from.
:)

IMO it’s a false dichotomy though. A respected and credible group of
language contributors should pool some energy together and ratify some
opinionated best practices, a la the C++ Core Guidelines and PEP-8. No,
it’s not *necessary*—neither is the exponent operator—but it does have
clear benefits.

I believe most in the community would rather not have to sell things like
“const by default” to their team members, when it could be “official”
guidance instead. It’s energy we’d rather be spending on other things!

Alex

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 at 06:59, Jordan Harband  wrote:

> These questions have consumed programmers in most languages since forever.
> It's not TC39's place to tell people how to write code - but there's plenty
> of style guides that have answers to these questions.
>
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:44 PM, kai zhu  wrote:
>
>> there are several factors for the current javascript-fatigue.  one factor
>> which tc39 could help mitigate is to provide a narrative on how to
>> consistently apply proposed language-features (over existing-practices and
>> interfacing with legacy-code).
>>
>> i feel too many new and old javascript-programmers alike are unable to
>> adopt a consistent programming-style for post-es5 features in
>> production-code.  style-issues which are problematic when a project has to
>> deal with legacy libraries include:
>>
>> - when is it appropriate to use callback vs promise vs async-generator vs
>> async/await, when interfacing with legacy-code (aka context-switching-hell
>> or baton-passing-hell)?
>> - when is it appropriate to use var vs let, when interfacing with
>> legacy-code?
>> - when is it appropriate to use function vs fat-arrow, when interfacing
>> with legacy-code?
>> - how can we apply destructuring in a consistent and readable manner?
>> - when is it appropriate to use (proposed) pipeline-operator, and when is
>> it not?
>>
>> es6/es7/es8 introduces hundreds of these kinds of questions which
>> distract us from actual coding and shipping features.
>> ___
>> es-discuss mailing list
>> es-discuss@mozilla.org
>> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>>
>
> ___
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> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>
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Re: styleguide sanity-check for tc39 language-proposals to address javascript-fatigue

2017-10-18 Thread T.J. Crowder 
On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 8:18 AM, kai zhu
 wrote:
>
> its a legitimate agenda from someone who cares deeply about
> javascript and believes es6 was a mistake and a step in the
> wrong-direction for javascript and frontend-development.

I won't get into an argument with you about ES2015+ except to say I
vehemently disagree with your conclusion, and challenge your
characterization that there's some kind of "fatigue." I'm constantly
meeting programmers who are thrilled with the new features -- three real
standouts are arrow functions, `class` syntax, and `async`/`await`. I show
`async`/`await` to people and they go crazy for it. "Whoo hoo, no more
callback hell!"

But the point is: The ship has sailed. Re-litigating decisions that have
been made is pointless and tiresome. When new proposals are made, it's
perfectly valid to raise issues with *them* if you think there are issues
(and perhaps cite **concrete** issues that have arisen from similar past
work to support that argument -- with data, not innuendo), but complaining
about arrow functions, `let`, Promises, etc., in October 2017 is not
useful. Those decisions were finalized years ago.

-- T.J. Crowder
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Re: styleguide sanity-check for tc39 language-proposals to address javascript-fatigue

2017-10-18 Thread kai zhu 
> Frankly, this just seems like you're trying once again to push your
"JavaScript should have frozen in time as of ES3 or maybe ES5" agenda,
which I don't think anyone else on this list shares.

its a legitimate agenda from someone who cares deeply about javascript and
believes es6 was a mistake and a step in the wrong-direction for javascript
and frontend-development.

-kai

On Oct 18, 2017 3:02 PM, "T.J. Crowder" 
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 6:44 AM, kai zhu
>  wrote:
> >
> > there are several factors for the current javascript-fatigue.
>
> I don't believe any such thing exists.
>
> > es6/es7/es8 introduces hundreds of these kinds of questions
> > which distract us from actual coding and shipping features.
>
> I've certainly never been distracted by these things, other than in the
usual way ("Hmmm, in our house style are we always going to use () with
arrow functions even if there's only one parameter, like we always use
curly braces with `if`?"), which isn't significant and is certainly a
*very* small price to pay for the added utility of these features.
>
> Including libraries? Fine, use the API they provide (callbacks or
promises) or wrap that API if you don't like it but need the lib anyway,
and certainly don't worry about the *style* the library uses in its code.
No distraction.
>
> Frankly, this just seems like you're trying once again to push your
"JavaScript should have frozen in time as of ES3 or maybe ES5" agenda,
which I don't think anyone else on this list shares.
>
> -- T.J. Crowder
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Re: styleguide sanity-check for tc39 language-proposals to address javascript-fatigue

2017-10-18 Thread T.J. Crowder 
On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 6:44 AM, kai zhu
 wrote:
>
> there are several factors for the current javascript-fatigue.

I don't believe any such thing exists.

> es6/es7/es8 introduces hundreds of these kinds of questions
> which distract us from actual coding and shipping features.

I've certainly never been distracted by these things, other than in the
usual way ("Hmmm, in our house style are we always going to use () with
arrow functions even if there's only one parameter, like we always use
curly braces with `if`?"), which isn't significant and is certainly a
*very* small price to pay for the added utility of these features.

Including libraries? Fine, use the API they provide (callbacks or promises)
or wrap that API if you don't like it but need the lib anyway, and
certainly don't worry about the *style* the library uses in its code. No
distraction.

Frankly, this just seems like you're trying once again to push your
"JavaScript should have frozen in time as of ES3 or maybe ES5" agenda,
which I don't think anyone else on this list shares.

-- T.J. Crowder
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Re: styleguide sanity-check for tc39 language-proposals to address javascript-fatigue

2017-10-18 Thread Naveen Chawla 
My opinions:

For existing code, just transition when encountering code, for convenience
(no need to transition everything in a go).

For new code, always use await async where possible (very manageable vs
callbacks)
For new code, always use const (for references you don't expect to change)
and let (for references you expect to change), and ditch var altogether
(reason: var lets you accidentally override any global variables)
For new code, always use fat arrow EXCEPT when using a library that relies
on the use of "this" inside a function, where the "this" is different than
the outer "this" (reason: more terse, and lets you access the outer "this").
Destructuring: as per your convenience.
Pipeline: never unless they allow await in a pipeline (reason: could lead
to inconsistency), otherwise always (instead of () for calling functions).
However, pipeline operator is not yet accepted in the language.

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 at 11:14 kai zhu  wrote:

> there are several factors for the current javascript-fatigue.  one factor
> which tc39 could help mitigate is to provide a narrative on how to
> consistently apply proposed language-features (over existing-practices and
> interfacing with legacy-code).
>
> i feel too many new and old javascript-programmers alike are unable to
> adopt a consistent programming-style for post-es5 features in
> production-code.  style-issues which are problematic when a project has to
> deal with legacy libraries include:
>
> - when is it appropriate to use callback vs promise vs async-generator vs
> async/await, when interfacing with legacy-code (aka context-switching-hell
> or baton-passing-hell)?
> - when is it appropriate to use var vs let, when interfacing with
> legacy-code?
> - when is it appropriate to use function vs fat-arrow, when interfacing
> with legacy-code?
> - how can we apply destructuring in a consistent and readable manner?
> - when is it appropriate to use (proposed) pipeline-operator, and when is
> it not?
>
> es6/es7/es8 introduces hundreds of these kinds of questions which distract
> us from actual coding and shipping features.
> ___
> es-discuss mailing list
> es-discuss@mozilla.org
> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>
___
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Re: styleguide sanity-check for tc39 language-proposals to address javascript-fatigue

2017-10-18 Thread Jordan Harband 
These questions have consumed programmers in most languages since forever.
It's not TC39's place to tell people how to write code - but there's plenty
of style guides that have answers to these questions.

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 10:44 PM, kai zhu  wrote:

> there are several factors for the current javascript-fatigue.  one factor
> which tc39 could help mitigate is to provide a narrative on how to
> consistently apply proposed language-features (over existing-practices and
> interfacing with legacy-code).
>
> i feel too many new and old javascript-programmers alike are unable to
> adopt a consistent programming-style for post-es5 features in
> production-code.  style-issues which are problematic when a project has to
> deal with legacy libraries include:
>
> - when is it appropriate to use callback vs promise vs async-generator vs
> async/await, when interfacing with legacy-code (aka context-switching-hell
> or baton-passing-hell)?
> - when is it appropriate to use var vs let, when interfacing with
> legacy-code?
> - when is it appropriate to use function vs fat-arrow, when interfacing
> with legacy-code?
> - how can we apply destructuring in a consistent and readable manner?
> - when is it appropriate to use (proposed) pipeline-operator, and when is
> it not?
>
> es6/es7/es8 introduces hundreds of these kinds of questions which distract
> us from actual coding and shipping features.
> ___
> es-discuss mailing list
> es-discuss@mozilla.org
> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/es-discuss
>
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